I'm sure many of you have heard this before but I just heard it and thought it was very interesting. For this to apply, you have to believe that the universe is infinite. This hypothesis is based on the expression "even a monkey smacking away on a typewriter will recreate Shakespeare if given an unlimited amount of time". The hypothesis goes like this:
If the universe is inifinite, and the number of objects that inhabit it are infinite, then the number of galaxies are infinite, then the number of solar systems are infinite, then the number of planets are infinite. If the number of planets are infinite, then there are an infinite amount of planets with the exact same geological makeup of earth. If there are an infinite number of planets with the same geological makeup of earth, then there are an infinite number of planets that have the exact same amount of people who are genetically identical to every single person on our planet. This means there there are an infinite number of people typing this exact same message onto the exact same website using the exact same computer that I am. That also means that there are an infinite number of people exactly like me that will end this post here.


And there are an infinite number that will end it here.

And there are an infinite number that will end it here, while eating cheeetos.

That's just something I found fascinating to think about. Pretty cool eh?

Well thats how time travel works. You jump from one parallel universe to another one that is at a different time than the one you came from.

It's also interesting that there seem to exist all types of parallel universes including ones where we have parallel versions of ourselves but there are slight differences, such as some other friends, living somewhere else, or just a cat instead of a dog, or parents still married, etc.

Had a strange trip to one of those parallel dimensions myself, think i wrote about it somewhere here.

Cheers

I didn't mean it to sound that it's so much of a parallel universe, but simply another part of our own universe that is extremely far away (statistically, anyways). Instead of spending all of our science fiction dollars on time travel, we should work on space travel, since we know at least that much is possible

you say "even a monkey smacking away on a typewriter will recreate Shakespeare if given an unlimited amount of time."
Who says it will recreate shakespear? It's likely to happen, but that doesn't mean that it WILL happen.
and even if there are infinite worlds with exactly the same geological makeup of earth it doesn't mean that they all contain human life or even life at all. Say if i put a billion red balls into a bag and 1 blue ball (big bag ) the chances of me picking out the blue ball at random are next to nothing, but not impossible. So, although the chances of another planet having life are almost certain, it doesn't mean that there is definatly life out there.
I'm not saying your wrong, just we'll never know for sure.

Meltus, I think you're missing the importance of the quantifier "infinite." The statement "It's likely to happen, but that doesn't mean it WILL happen" is incorrect when infinite permutations are involved. The correct statement would be, "If it's possible, given enough opportunity (either enough time for 1 permutation or enough simultaneous permutations) it MUST happen." Since we know that at least one exactly Earth-like planet exists (ours, of course!) then we know that it's existence is possible. Therefore, given an infinite number of planets, there is an infinitely large subset of those planets that are exactly like Earth, down to the last subatomic particle. Infinity is just that huge, literally "unbounded."

I'll give you an even more extreme, but factual statement: Given an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters, an infinite number of copies of Shakespeare's "Hamlet" will be produced in an infinitesimally short time span.

THAT is what Infinity can do for you. That is also what engineers and physicists who are working on quantum computing are pinning their hopes on. They hope to harness the power of an inifinite number of (virtual parallel) computers to solve well-defined, reiterative problems.

As airsoftbro11 stated, though, this all depends on the actual result of the statement, "If the universe is infinite..."

If the universe is infinite, and it's expansion is universally accellerating (highly probable based on recent observations,) then there is only a finite volume that is within timelike reach of where any observer can be located. The end effect is that for any observer there is a "bubble" universe that is, in some respects, a blackhole cut off from the rest of the universe. Light simply cannot travel to points in another "bubble" because all of the surrounding bubbles are receding faster than the speed of light. In effect, this could be how "parallel universes" come into being without the problems of occupying the same region of spacetime in some spooky virtual state. The speed of light quarantines every point in the universe, so that information from any point can only reach a finite number of other points.

Infinate doesn't have to mean INFINATE. It only has to mean that planets and galexies are constantly being created.

Huh??? I must just be dense. If it doesn't mean infinite, then by definition, isn't it finite? Which is not infinite?


In that case, we're talking about the universe being infinitely prolonged, with ongoing mass and energy creation. Therefore, at any give time the universe is finite, but over all possible times (the full spacetime continuum) the universe is infinite.

I'm not pushing the point, though, because I don't believe our singular universe is infinite. I believe it could be one slice of an infinite multiverse, though. Separate topic.

Edit: Need to stop proofreading AFTER I post.

mathematical probability states that there is always a chance of this happening, however small, because of the vastness of the universe and of similar conditions throughout the universe. if the universe is infinite, and the experiment is tried over n over again, one day an exact replica of human society will be created. this could take countless experiments though, too many for anyone to count.

I have heard that though the universe may be infinite, the amount of matter in it is not.

Hi Os. that's coz Hamlet is finite whereas the 'contraints' are infinite. yes ?



this is what i tend to believe is the case. i kinda dont think there are any other universes other than the one we're in. which means if there's finite planets, then a finite number of monkeys which in turn makes the infinite monkeys scenario impossible, huh Os ?

love Min xx

First of all, the universe IS infinite. Always has been since the first thought. The thought became a vibration and the vibration became a "string". This string creates existence as we now sense it.

My belief is that a "being" did create everything, but with a thought...a thought that was neither negative nor positive. As long as we exist and perceive to exist, then our negative and positive energies in turn keep us connected to our reality.

So yes, there are an infinite amount of universes but not every universe is the same, just variations. Variations of the first model, the beginning...the first thought.

So every time you think about what might happen, is now possible because of you.
FREE WILL

By definition, the universe is all-encompassing, so there can't be multiple universes.

Perzactly. The interesting part is the "infinitesimally short time" because there is a chance, although very improbable, that as the paper "materializes" in this monkey/typewriter/paper filled universe, it will already have an exact version of Hamlet on it. Since we have an infinite number of pages in this monkeyverse, that means an infinitely large subset of instant Hamlet.



I tend to agree, but I think of "particles" instead of worlds. You could still have multiple exact copies given enough particles and/or time, but it gets more and more improbable as the total size of either time or particles gets smaller.

The concept of Time is definitely bizarre, and will never be fully understood. Is it infinite? Is it an illusion? The concept will leave us with rhetorical questions until doomsday.

Can Time be manipulated? Anything is possible. I believe in the process of time traveling, but I think it'll take several thousands of years before it's perfected. Maybe Time is a concept of God. Maybe God is Time.

The thing is, nothing is infinite, everything must have limits to exist.

That's definitely not true. We have infinite numbers all the time. If we ask a computer to calculate the digits of pi, it will do so for all of eternity until it is interrupted by an outside force.

Time must also be infinite, because if it weren't, there would eventually be a point where there is no existence, which is also impossible.

The lifespan of energy and matter is also infinite, since they cannot be created or destroyed.

PI is just a mathematical problem that cannot be solved by a computer today or our mathematical standards. For however long a computer tries to solve it, it will never reach infinite, NEVER! Every time you check, the computer will be on a serten numbers of PI, never on a infinite numbers of PI, Infinite is just something humans invented and dosen't exists in reality.

And I believe time exists in a constant multiverse. Which is limited but amazingly big.

Pi is not a problem, it is the result of a problem. I forgot exactly what it is, but it's something like the circumference of a perfect circle divided by its radius.

Of course a computer can't reach infinite. Infinity has no end, therefore nothing can "reach" it. A computer calculating the digits of pie will NEVER finish its job, no matter how fast it can process or how long it goes for. This means that pi is infinite; it has no end.

I'm not sure what you mean by a constant multiverse, but time is definitely infinite. There can not be an end to time, or a beginning. Even if it is "amazingly big", that would still mean it has an end. It does not.

How can you claim to know that there is nothing that is infinite? The only way to know that to be true is to have infinite knowledge, which would therefore prove your hypothesis wrong.

PI is not infinite, it will always be as long as you make it. You just imagining that it will be infinite long if you count it for a infinite long time, but in reality theres nothing here that is infinite, your just creating this thought of it which is not infinite itself. You have to be materialistic.

How can I claim? Well, then the same thing goes for claiming that there is something that is infinite. But the thing is, im not the one that should prove something here.

I'm not going to call you an idiot.

QUOTE (Mad Hatter @ Feb 23 2008, 05:23 PM)

Can Time be manipulated? Anything is possible. I believe in the process of time traveling, but I think it'll take several thousands of years before it's perfected. Maybe Time is a concept of God. Maybe God is Time.

If anything is possible - and I wholeheartedly agree with that - it should be possible now.

Unless, of course, you are waiting for a "machine" or some other technological device to displace oneself through time (however illusory it may be).
(Personally, I don't believe it's necessary, or even desirable, and have very little interest in the subject of "time machines".)

In that case, you may want to remember this:

QUOTE

On Oct. 9, 1903, the New York Times wrote:

“The flying machine which will really fly might be evolved by the combined and continuous efforts of mathematicians and mechanicians in from one million to ten million years.”

On the same day, on Kill Devil Hill, N.C., in his diary, a bicycle mechanic named Orville Wright wrote:

“We unpacked rest of goods for new machine.”

In fact, I am so sure you are familiar with it that I am not even citing the source(s).


Still, it bears repeating.
(and I always do so with gusto )

I won't either, but I will point out how incredibly arrogant it is to put finite limits on the universe in such an arbitrary way, when we have solid theoretical and mathematical models that require infinities to be real, and produce many of the things we surround ourselves with. They wouldn't work if it were not for infinities, so I guess they just work because we have convinced ourselves that they will!

Wait, doesn't that belong in the "Reality is an illusion" thread????


OS

I dont expect someone like you to understand. But you can however not create something infinite with mathematical terms, you are just illustrating the ide of infinite by making mathematical calculations, symbols that we have given meaning to. But those calculations are in reality particles in a certain order with limited numbers and those mathematical symbols and rules dosen't all apply to the real world.

I dont believe in the concept of infinite.

No credible person in the history of time has disproven, or come close to disproving the concept of infinity. Are you saying that you know more about physics/mathematics than every single person in history? Even Albert Einstein never doubted infinity. Are you smarter than Einstein?

For your sake, I hope the answer to those questions are yes, because the alternative is that you are, in fact, a moron.

And I don't expect someone like you to understand that you keep ascribing all of those impossible feats to humans, and by doing so you are putting an anthropic limitation on all of creation. That is why I said your position is arrogant.

"You can however not create..."

"You just imagining that it will be infinite..."

Sure 'nuff, humans are not infinite, and while we can conceive of the infinite (the number of digit Pi contains for example,) we cannot materialize it because we are finite. We can't make a brand new human being from scratch, either. They must not exist!!!! Back to the "Is Reality and Illusion?" thread again.


OS

Albers Einstein said that "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity" That last part fits well with you LINK< Here read more about infinite, please do.

And exactly where does the supposingly infinite exist as a infinite?

So if you're saying I'm an example of the infinite human stupidity, doesn't that mean you agree with Einstein's statement, and therefore the part that says the universe is infinite? By the way, he wasn't stating that quote as scientific fact, he was making a joke. The actual quote is "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

I'm aware of the "and I'm not sure about the former" part but left it out because I was only interested in those two things.

I'm sure he meant that the dimensional space of nothingness has no limits and therefore are infinite. But dimensional space of nothingness is "nothing" Therefore, nothing is infinite.

Infinite is a philosophical concept, nothing more.

I'm just going to stop trying to convince you that you're wrong. Obviously some people just have no common sense.

Actually, It makes no common sense for something to be infinite. Things just mathematically/philosophically move towards something larger and larger but cannot actually at one point reach the state of infinity and therefore it dosen't exist.

I don't think you even know what infinity is. It is not a state, it is a property. If something does not have an end, it is considered to be infinite. It does not have to "reach infinity". In fact, you could consider everything that has not yet ended and has no forseeable end infinite until proven that it does have an end, but that might be stretching it. e, pi, 10 divided by 3, time, the universe, the life span of a molecule, all of those things are infinite because they CAN NOT end. Even though you may only write 10 divided by 3 as 3.33, it is still in infinite number, because no matter how many 3's you add to the end of the equation, it will still not be enough. In order for the equation to work, there has to be an infinite amount of threes. That is why we have that little line to write over the top of the numbers to signify infinite repetitions. You cannot write all the digits of an infinite number, you can only declare that it has them.

Sounds like infinite is a concept of philosophy then, like I said before. PI beeing infinitely long is imaginary and dosen't mean that there are infinite numbers of planets/stars/galaxies. So philosophy it is, nothing more. Unless someone proves that there are infinite numbers of somethingness. But you speak as it already is.

And how do you know that everything wont come to an end? Not that it matters anyhow.

Here's a short test for you:


1. How many points do you consider a circle contains? Are circles imaginary figments?

2. If a switch is opened in an electric circuit, the resistance in the circuit becomes ________.



Hopefully, that last one will offer some enlightenment on why your position, which seems fully bounded (finite) by experience, is in error.


OS

Edit: Forgot to mention, perhaps you should look up the meaning of "infinity." It seems you might think it can be quantified into a discrete value.

Would there not be infinite variations of humans and not copies of ourselves doing the same exact thing we're doing now. I don't know if that makes since or not im just saying.

Calling infinite a philosophical consept would be just right then, thank you.

There would be infinite variations of us. There would also be infinite exact copies of us. There would also be infinite copies of us with 1 less strand of hair. There is an infinite amount of all possible variations of us, including deciding to get married to a different girl, or deciding to grow a beard, or growing up in a different neighborhood.

I hate the 'infinite'-word It drives me nuts! To think of the infinite makes you sit and think infinately!!! aaaah!

By the way... It kind of set me in ease aswell. You say you think there is many many like us, sooo... so many have been exactly through the same as I did (including dumb faults and embarresments) ...

I know this will (maybe) kind of off-topic, but do you know what else did I thought of before...
I think if you have been borned in your best friends (or anyone elses) place (like you are him now, his mother is your mother and so on), I think you would have been precicely the same person. You would have made the same choices because you would have been put in the same spot and learned the same experiences and so on. So do you get what I'm saying? If you were me you would have been typing this message also, thinking in the same way and have the same relationships and blah blah blah...

btw... Could there be a connection to this thought of mine to the shakespearian infinite thing? (okay that just came to me, had no attention of asking that)

And the universe has an beginning and end. From the bigbang to the now, so there will always be an beginning and end.

If it were infinite, then it would be an infinite amount of time since bigbang but its not.

I don't really think you understand the meaning of the word infinite. It means it has no end, it doesn't mean it has no beginning, although in some cases this may be true.
The universe refers to everything in existence, it is all encompassing, not necessarily just the mass that occupies it. The universe was not created at the big bang, no one has ever said it was. The big bang theory explains the formation of the objects that occupy the universe. The universe was around an infinite amount of time before the big bang. It's possible it runs in a cycle of big bang, then condensation, then big bang again.

Some of you may not know that the ancient prophet, Nostrildumass
wrote in his quatrains about the famous monkey-on-the-typwriter
paradox and it's relation to infinity.

Quatrain 531, verse 7 states:
"And in the coming years, there shall be many monkeys
typing on typewriters, and arguing infinitely about infinity."

I think that this supports both the concept of infinity,
and man's inherent skill level for debating it.

I'm calling BS on that, typewriters may be outdated, but they aren't ancient.

source

I think pretty much like this guy about the concept of infinite. But I suppose he dosent either know what infinite is.

Also Stephen Hawking in 'Brief History of Time' (1989 page 44) describes the universe as being "finite but unbounded"
I guess he's also a moron and dosen't understand the complexity of infinite.

We do not know if the universe is finite or infinite, finite makes the most sense to me, but im however not judging you or anyone else for believing in the infinite.

re-read that post airsoft, and read the name 'Nostrildumass' very carefully. then smile or laugh at ur leisure.

Min xx

this discussion reminded me of my old mathematics teacher. she would often use both decimal formation and fractions in the same equation. keeps u on ur tippies i can tell u. reason she did this was coz of absolutes. if you divide one by three decimally u get 0.33333 recurring. no matter how many '3's u put after the decimal u will never be exact coz the '3's have to be infinitley written to get the exact result, however if you say one divided by three is 'a third' u get an exact and absolute answer.
just because u cannot imagine the infinity does not mean it does not exist.
re-read OS posts again. he knows what he's talking about.

love Min xx

I suppose if the universe is infinite in this way then there is a infinite possibility for earth-like planets with infinite variations, even galaxies that are infinitely close to a perfect copy of ours, and infinitely many worlds that are in a perfect synchronize with ours, and infinite many that are not.

There would be infinitely many variations of everything so there would be no variation that did not exist in the infinite, there would be no new worlds to insert into the infinite universe as there would already be. Things would start to repeat itself in all possible kinds of patterns and randoms in the infinite universe. There would be a infinite possibility to see a painting of mona lisa if you zoomed out far enough somewhere in the infinite universe.

There would be two planets that are exactly the same in all ways that circulate each other and they would bouth synchronize in every detail, just think about the confusion it would cause when those aliens living there start communicate with each other, no matter what they do, they would synchronize with each other

I hope we one day will find a clearly picture of something, parhaps in a nebula, maybe a portrait of usama bin laden, that would be funny. I guess that it must have happened somewhere in this infinite universe, but we on this earth not so infinitely lucky no

Finding something bizarre like that would be definite proof of an infinite universe

Ok, I tried posting some kind of funky theory relating to the topic, hope you like it

The thing that I find hard to believe about time travel, is that there will have to be parrrellel dimensions, each a fraction of a millesecond behind one another, or foward one another, until those dimensions add up to make like 10 years into the future, 100, 1000, or 589843690843569 years into the future...It just seems like this would not be feasible...

To me it's the only logical way to make time travel possible and it resolves all paradoxes such as the grandfather paradox etc (what would happen if you travel back in time and killed your own grandfather making sure you'd never be born?) as it would simply just happen in a parallel universe and not YOUR original one.

Besides, my own journeys to these parallel dimensions further proves their existence at least to me, as I've been in a parallel version of my own life and seen it to be possible.

In the great mind of the All everything is possible, and everything exists, at the same time.

Best regards,
-EA

Yes, thats what i also think if timetravel is possible. These roads of timetravel would be parallel universes linked to each other in a huge multiverse of possibility that constantly exist. And even that wouldn't be infinitely huge because of the variational limits you can do with a fixed amount of energy. It would start from the big bang and parhaps everything leeds to the same end which is connected back to the beginning. The universe would exist as a multidimensional giantic object that never changes. Thats one of my theories.