ANGELS

"Creatures of might who do God's bidding"
http://www.terrific-tabs.com/print_angels.htm
You say, "I believe the Bible; but I don't believe in 'angels'." Then, consider the following:

In the Old Testament of the Bible, according to a computer search of the King James translation, there are 108 references to "angel", or "angels" -- and in the New Testament, there are 175 references to angels. There are 75 references to "angels", in the Book of Revelations.

Similarly, in the Old Testament of the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible, there are 105 references to "angel", or "angels".... and in the New Testament, there are 176 references to "angels".

Therefore, for those who claim to believe and accept the validity and "truth" of the Bible, it would be incongruous to deny the existence of angels; and to refuse to acknowledge ("believe-in") the presence and function and effects of "angels" in our lives, and in our world.... the world designed and created by Almighty God.


So, what about you? What is your "attitude" about ANGELS.... your understanding; your "belief"? Has "modern technology" caused you to eradicate all of that "superstitious stuff", about angels? Have television and weird movies distorted your "views" of angels?

I think of "angels" as emissaries from God -- many times functioning "unseen".... and unrecognized, in the lives of God's people. Yes, I am quite certain, to my own satisfaction, that angels "abide", and perform their duties, within human-beings. Angels -- God's "workers".... serving as the "hands" of God.

If I am wrong -- no harm is done. If I am right, I will dwell happily in my wisdom. I cannot "prove" my understanding. Perhaps, my belief is a matter of my "faith", and my "trust".

So , What about you, do you believe in angels and that they do God's bidding?
Always a pleasure

first of all NICE POST!!!!

secondly I believe angels to come in many forms. I have always been interested in that when angels have appeared to a person or persons in the bible they normally begin with a do not fear me statement which suggests awesomeness or fearsomeness. or heavenlyness too. I don't know what significance that has but there it is....I don't believe they are white winged, haloed, chubby faced, or diapered in any case.

Some angels looked identical to humans, and essentially are humans. The Old Testament says they eat food so they are not spirits.

But the highest "angels" are not human like in any way. These are the Seraphim, a word that means fiery flying serpents in Hebrew, and to remove all doubt, when the Jews translated their own hebrew scriptures into Greek, the Seraphim were translated to Drakons. (Dragons).

But for that matter, many scholar trace Yahweh back to the cannanite Yaw and sumerian Enki, both dragon gods. And Yahweh himself, is described spew fire from his mouth, smoke fro his nostril, has wings, and presented offerings of cattle, sheep, first born children and captured enemy virgins. Roughly half the Ancient Christian world identified him as a "dragon"........... but the other half that would become the catholic church "won".

dude, you and yur dragons...

Hello Sandee,

I was looking for a reply of yours on another thread similar topic but couldn't find it. Did you say that you believed angels would never hurt a person?

I know your opinion from previous similarish threads. i have researched the things you have said and some coincide and some don't. I respect the thought you have put into linking these things together but you really just repeat yourself to the same people. at this point I would really like a statement or a text from a ligitimate theologen or historian to back up what you claim.

To be honest I can't remember what I ate yesterday sometimes, I Most likely did as I believe they do God's work I don't see Angels hurting or harming anyone.
Always a pleasure

And it came to pass on a certain night that the angel of the Lord went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses-all dead.

2 Kings 19

Sandee,

I didn't mean to throw a grenade on your topic and then run. I just had some work to do outside before it got dark. Like you, I find the topic of angels very interesting. I find it strange all the misconceptions out there. People often view angels as these little toddler like creatures with wings and harps and stuff when in fact they are really powerful creatures. They can move at or near the speed of light and move inbetween at least two dimensions. Most of the angels described in scripture don't have wings although some do. I know they can appear as humans and definitely can intervene in a persons life. I've had several occasions in my life where I was almost killed, or badly injured, and I'm convinced that at least one time an angel saved me from harm.

Regards.

sandee great post!

I do and yet dont beleave in angels
I beleave that powerful and mighty creatures are out there
but as far as I can tell none are holy far from it infact

to be honest I may seem nuts but I dont see anything good or holy in this world XD
anyway just my 2 cents as always

mhm.

I've never understood why an omnipotent, omnipresent god needs intermediaries.

It seems that Angels are extraneous and useless quite frankly if god is everywhere and everything.

I'll take a stab at it, I think 'winged' Angels could be 'UFO flying' ETs?... Hey, I'm flexible

No, Rave, they ALL coincide with the ORIGINAL ancient scripture or archaeological finds.. BUT many modern Christians are uncomfortable with the idea of dragons as the highest heavenly creatures, so they have simply given concocted, alternative meanings to ancient Hebrew words, and simply ignore the arhcaeology.

In truth, I am a "legitimate historian". One of my books has been printed in four languages and sold in prominent museums. I am paid by the federal government to be a historian, though this has NOTHING to do with religion or dragons. And when my "dragon book" comes out, you will see that everything is backed up in footnotes as to the original source material. I come to these forums because every once in awhile someone reveals new information on these subjects.

The project would not be as comprehensive if I never came here to discuss these subjects.

No, the only winged "angels" are the Seraphim and Cherubim, and we now know this refers to winged reptiles that every human culture acknowledge and are collectively called "dragons" today.

Humanoid angels DO NOT have wings. They are continuously mistaken as normal men in the bible. Winged humanoid angels is a non-biblical Christian addition that came about becasue the early Christians were converted pagans who worshipped winged humanoid gods and felt more comfortable with these than the Biblical "Fiery flying serpents" (Seraphim).

ok the what is that book penned under because as i said before accepting totally new information in a forum from an unnamed stranger as truth is to difficult and i would prefer to read some modern insight on this view.

We have detailed records of Assyria and this even does not seem to have happened. On the contrary, both the Bible AND Assyrian records document the fact that King Hezekiah bribed the Assyrians not to destroy the city by giving them all the gold in the temple. This is possibly why the Ark of the Covenant disappeared around this time. The gold stripped from it to bribe the Sumerians.

No one the "Angel massacre story"you refer to was invented to save face for this ultimate humiliation.

Don't blame me, blame the "real" Bible, not to mention virtually every other ancient religion. "There be dragons!"

The Bible does not say God is everythere and everything. He goes away for a while possibly to romance Asheroth, and comes back and finds the Israelites worshipping a Golden Calf. He sends humanoid angels as "spies" into cities and fiery flying serpents (Seraphim) to kill people.

In the original Bible, the Creator is not even Yahweh. It is El. Yahweh is just one of many "sub gods", or sons of god (Bene ha Elohim) most if not all which appear to be "dragons", (which seems to explain other dragon gods of China and mesoamerica) that are assigned to all of the world's tribes/cultures. This is said in the original deuteronomy discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls, unlike the later, rewritten bibles used today with all the controversial bits missing.

Thank you ravergirl, I am not sure every ones description of angels are the same but I guess the pictures of angels give us a impression and thats where the halos and diapers, and chubby faces come in. But I do think they are powerful as God is their leader, boss however they look.
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No problem I too had to leave for court depositions.
I too have had experiences with angels and they have intervened in my life. I believe we all have angels watching over us, God is their boss though and they can only intervene when God lets them. Just my belief.
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Thank you Gampersnaz, Angels are seen as either good or evil an your opinion is not anymore "nuts" than everyone else's. When you speak of powerful and mighty creatures what are you referring to , angels or 'other"?
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Why wouldn't God have an army of Angels to serve His will? I believe God can do anything he wants and while He is all powerful and knowing, angels do serve a purpose in God's kingdom.
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In the Quran, and i think it also mentions it in the bible somewhere, will try and dig it up. It says that the angels are created of light, subserviant to gods will, they have no free will and only serve god. They do sometime come to earth carrying gods message, like gabriel, they can often come in the form of men etc, but they never eat or drink like humans, they dont need food to sustain them, their sustanance is something else. In christianity, satan is seen as an angel, in islam he is a djinn, a free willed specie, made of smokeless fire. He was once the leader of the angels, but his rebellion changed that, angels cannot rebel against god. Thats the islamic perspective for you.

I think the angels are his eyes. He sees through them IMO.

i have already established with you, that your meaning of yaweh was false, infact you dint even know it. You know what your logic is like this, because serpants and dragons are mentioned in a metophorical sense in scripture you take it to be dragons, fire breathing dragons etc. One movie too many. Anyway like i said before if we take this logic, then maybe the bible is refering to a time, when mankind was living side by side with dinosaurs, large dragons and serpants, tamed and used by humans, who themselves were giants according to the bible, This is evidence that man has been here longer than we think, they walked with dinosaurs, for which we have evidence, but for fire breathing dragons we dont, so what makes my theory any different to urs. they are both silly and unreliable.

Could you stick to the topic please, this thread has nothing to do with dragons.

I doubt the existence of Angels as a separate species from Man. I believe Angels are merely God's servants and that the position is endowed with greater power than man has. God created the position of "angel", but I do not believe he created a creature that is an "angel."

Angels are, imo, the spirits of people that serve God, living people that directly serve God, and people that have been physically perfected by God.

Sure it does. You just know too little about this subject. Many Christians think the "Seraphim" are the "highest" angels, when in reality, the word in Hebrew means fiery flying serpents, and the ancient Jews themselves translated the word to Drakons. Even early Christian art, like bible covers, mosaics , etc, depict god surrounded by these creatures, often depicted in the act of swallowing sinners.

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Some angels may indeed be spirits of the deceased, but the bible is clear that some are physical human beings, that must eat manna in heaven and food on earth. They are not particularly powerful either.

But then there are the reptilian Seraphim and Cherubim that both ancient Jews and Christians believed were powerful, fiery flying serpents, and often called, and depicted in Chistian art as winged dragons.

You did nothing of the sort. The "Great Dragon who stand in Eridu" called Enki, does EXACTLY everything Yahweh is later described doing. And the dragon Enki, becomes Yaw or Yam to the Canannites, and ultimately Yahweh, who the bible describes with wings, breathing fire, spewing smoke from his nostrils, and being offered calves, lambs, children and captured virgins. Its all in the bible, as well as the fact the Yahweh ordered moses to make his idol in the form of a brazen winged serpent or dragon.

Yahweh is not a dinosaur. Dinosaurs cannot be very smart. Now it is possible that Yahweh and the onther Bene Elohim are an intelligent form of archosaur, just as humans are a more intelligent form of primate. The Biblical dragons are not a metaphor, they are carefully depicted in Jewish, Christian and even MUSLIM art. I have shown you the references to dragons who torment the infidels, just as dragons cosume the wicked in some Jewish and Christian scriptures.

You really know too little about this to say I am wrong about anything. Your own muslim faith acknowledges these dragons, and not as metaphors.

Wrong. The Bible says angels eat Manna in heaven, and there are several accounts of angels eating normal food on earth. Not a metaphor, simple black and white facts. They wrestle with Jacob, have sex with women, were nearly sodomized in Sodom. None of this sounds like creatures made of fire or light. These are fairytales added to the real Bible.

An army of angels would be pretty useless. Jacob wrestled and won against an angel. They are simply humans. The mighty, fearsome creatures of God are the seraphim and Cherubim, creatures that the ancient Jews themselves translated to dragons, and it is these dragons depicted on the Holy Menorah, not pagan winged humanoid angels stolen from greek and roman theology.

mhm. I've read you say this before and I suspect its quite likely that todays 'god' evolved from older versions. And Snake Cults have always been common so a Dragon Cult isn't so far off.

Still, I've always been of the understanding that most Progenitor Gods as you seem to claim El to be, are at least Omnipresent, note Zeus or Odin who saw everything.

However I have never understood why God as described by the Abrahimic books would require intermediaries and I truly am quite curious.

Why was it necessary for El to send Yaweh to the Hebrews, and as I understand he sent others such as Quetzacoatal to the earth as well. Was it because he was limited? I truly am curious Draconic...

If there is an intelligence behind the origin of the universe that may be El, the Nameless God, Great Spirit, etc it is folly to think this entity is the proverbial Santa Claus, " who knows everything about us" . This planet is a speck in a vast universe, and chances are, there are countless other planets with intelligent life.

All of the legends of the "Omnipresent" gods actually contradict this idea, and in virtually all religions the Progenitor Gods have human faults (jealousy, for example), and also have either angels or lesser Gods to "help" them.

Perhaps El, checked this planet out only once, 100 million years ago. Not unreasonable considering how big the universe is. Perhaps he selected and enhanced the most advanced creature of the time, and gave them instructions to eventually 'shepherd' any intelligent life that emerges, and once they are "on thier feet", to disappear back into the deep waters and now be believed to only be legends, and the occasional sightings of sea and lake monsters. So now we have legends of "dragon gods" around the world. Over the years, human arrogance would transform these gods into deities in their own likeness, but the historical record tells us otherwise. It speaks of amost universal large reptilian deities.

And few of them are paritularly good role models even if they did teach us agriculture, domestication of animals, laws, brought rain, etc. as they are credited. In most of thes cultures, these "gods" expected the best animals in the flocks as offering in return for their troubles, and in the Bible we see Yahweh also asking for first born sons, and given dozens of captured enemy virgins.

I've heard you say this many times, and still have never seen any evidence for it. I have studies religions extensively, and trust me, there are no literal dragons mentioned anywhere. So again...

This topic is not about dragons. Please quit turning every thread you come across into a dispute on the existance of dragons. Please stick to the topic, which is about the EXISTANCE of angels, not whether your pathetic idea that they are dragons is true or not.

For someone who thinks they have "studied religon extensively" I am appalled you never understood the real meaning of this word.

Many Christians are reluctant to tell the truth, but if you go to the Hebrew experts of the JEWISH ECYCLOPEDIA they say that the best defintion of Seraphim is Fiery flying serpents, and archaeology PROVES that the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim to Drakons. I have quoted this a dozen times here already. If you knew ANYTHING about early Christianity up until the Renaissance, you would know that most Christian sources portrayed Seraphim as dragons as well.

You definately need my book if you care to understand the role of dragons and angels in ORIGINAL Christianity, quite different than the WASP Christianity of today.

I am really interested in Angels and everyones view of them , I am not all that educated on dragons as they just don't really interest me. Could we please keep the topic on Angels? You surely can start a topic on dragons and their role in the bible, Thank you
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Agreed, this thread specifically covers the topic of angels; if you'd like to discuss the connection between angels and dragons please start a seperate thread.

Thank you.

Thank you so very much, o' wise one!! Could we perhaps get the same courtesy in some of the other threads too?? Thanks again.

I believe in Angels. I believe some are on this earth to protect us from time to time. I think that God or the Gods see though the eyes of a angel. I think that some Angels are in human form. That is what I think.

Actually I am keeping it to what mainstream Christianity believes are the "highest angels", called Seraphim. I can't help it that in the real Hebrew scriptures they happen to be winged reptilian creatures, and not swan-winged humanoid angels of cartoon and Christmas tree ornaments. It is that passage in Isaiah about the Seraphim that gave Christians the very idea that angels have wings, when this scripture was really about "fiery flying serpents". If you are not interested in what the original Hebrew scriptures say on the matter, that is your right.

Jesus only endorsed the old Jewish scriptures as the word of God. NOT what we call the New Testament, and certainly not modern Sunday School coloring books that turn the seraphim "dragons" into into humans with halos and wings stuck to their backs.

- Edit -

Whichever view you have of angels, it cannot be escaped that the Bible mentions them a lot and that they are greatly used by God to accomplish His will.

Angels are very active in the Bible and are used by God as messengers, warriors, and servants. The word "angel" comes from the Greek word "angelos" which means messenger. Angels are spiritual beings without bodies of flesh and bones, though they apparently have the ability to appear in human form (Gen. 19:1-22). Angels had many functions. They praised God (Psalm 103:20), served as messengers to the world (Luke 1:11-20, 26-38; Luke 2:9-14), watched over God’s people (Psalm 91:11-12), and were sometimes instruments of God’s judgment (Matt. 13:49-50).
The Bible tells us that God created the angels and that at some time in the distant past there was a rebellion in heaven and many of the angels fell. Apparently, it was the elect angels that did not fall (1 Tim. 5:21). The Bible says that angels were created by Christ (Col. 1:16), that they carry out the will of God (Psalm 103:20; Matt. 6:10), they worship God and Christ (Phil. 2:9-11; Heb. 1:6), are wise (2 Sam. 14:20), mighty (Psalm 103:20), holy (Matt. 25:31), and innumerable, (Heb. 12:22). However, angels are not to be worshipped (Col. 2:18; Rev. 19:10; 22:9) since they are creatures.

Angels in Islam are made of pure light, Noor. They only serve god, have no free will. They were once lead by Satan, who is a Djinn. He then rebbelled. The are also four arch angels in Islam. Gabriel is the one who carries gods words, revelations to all the prophets.

I remember a hadith, from the prophet, when gabriel used to manifest himself, it would normally be in a human form, pure white clothing, beautiful in appearance. Once he asked to see him in his true form, when gabriel did, the prophet said all he could see from the horizon vertically up was gabriel and his wings covered all horizon and the sky. he was huge, and he had more than two wings. i wil try and get the specific hadith on this in more detail.

What is the Hadith?

How can you have a lesser inspired word of God in the Hadith?

Hadith are saying of the prophet which was under insipiration too. The quran is exact, and then hadith is what muhammed did in action and words. For example, jesus was given revelation, but he was also the walking talking gospel, in his words and actions. The difference is that muhammed is the only man who whole life was documented especailly sicne he received prophethood. The hadith form the back bone of the quran so to speak. The quran tells us to prray five times aday, how what we do, is then show by muhammed, and that comes from hadith. Which is a science itself.

This particular hadith came to mind when talking about angels.