It would be more impressive if he would use the simple bowl set up that's been encouraged.

I'm not quite sure what's so difficult about that. It would seem to me that, if you are truely telekinetic, having a bowl over the wheel should be no detriment to your efforts.

I respect what you are trying to accomplish here, but it seems a bit suspicious that you insist on leaving this wheel exposed. It is also simply counter-productive. This will not serve as proof of the abilities you claim, as you are leaving yourself wide open for debunking. Why bother making a video if you know ahead of time that it won't effectively serve your purpose?

Just echoing the thoughts many others have expressed...

There is nothing hard about setting it up. He just doesn't want to do it.

There is no purpose in it.

I never said I wont do the bowl video...I have agreed to do so...But the bowl will take alot more time to conquor...I have never moved objects that were sealed inside a container...And, if this "energy" exist, just like every other energy in thius world, moving the energy through solid objects will weaken it...So, I am goin to do a casual test...

You acted like it was difficult to set up, now you act like it takes too much energy. Make up your mind.

If you are not sure Heart, please do not do it. Just stick to your original plan.

Have you considered any other reasons why it doesn't work when it's under a bowl?

Like wind currents, heat, etc. When you use the bowl it helps solve alot of the problems.

Yea, you're sayin cause theres no wind, I cant do it, cause I cant do TK...Thats the skeptics view..But if TK did exist, wouldn't you think it would take mor eenergy to pass it through objects?

No. I hear an excuse. Sorry. Just my opinion.

That depends on whether the glass you're using absorbs TK energy.

It doesn't absorb much light, so we can see through it just fine.

Maybe you could test it. Leave the pinwheel out, but put the bowl in front of your face or something. If the pinwheel moves, then the glass isn't soaking up the rays.

BAM!!

I like it eight bits! Care to give this a try, heart?

Very good. This is done in dowsing tests. The object to be found is placed under the cover, a paper cup for instance, and the dowser is asked to test his method/equipment to make sure it works through the cover medium.

This prevents the dowser from complaining that they failed to find the object amongst ten identical cups because the powers were affected by the cover.

Anyway, I digress, that's for another day ;-)

Ok, I'll test it...

Some interesting videos to watch here:

PART 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG1ZSuiSmx4

PART 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCeM4YIGIgo

This is sort of interesting - there's some back and forth, suggestions, trying different approaches. Essentially, people probably are going to grumble until they see something along the lines of the old Nina Kuligina footage, but "real" and where they could tell there is no misdirection involved. Personally I'm not convinced that one can get any kind of definitive "proof" from a homemade video, as there are far too many variables and unknowns, for objective analysis. But keep up the good work, all.

To clear this up once and for all, there's nothing psychic/telekinetic about the videos you posted Heartagram. As I posted in another thread, this morning I tryed to replicate what you did with your wheel without touching it, and it worked no problem. Even when I left the room to go check on my kettle, the wheel was moving on it's own. It's all air currents and such. And before anyone brings it up, no I made sure I didn't breath on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zf0w-DaKiU

Look...Don't think I went straight to thinking it was TK man...I did all these test...I left my wheel alone, to see if it would spin...I stood next to it, to see if it would spin...I left the room, and peered in through my door...In all those test the wheel DID NOT MOVE! I made sure to take care of other possibilites before I claimed it was TK...

And as did I? I left the wheel lying for ages while I was setting up the webcam position and all that and it didn't move, until I went to "make" it move. It's because of your body movement creates currents from moving around, and your body heat also affects it I would think. When I left the room a current was left rotating the wheel, specially because I'm wearing jackets and such. Though you say you stood next to it and it didn't move, I'm afraid I cannot take your word for it.

Look, the psi wheel has been debunked being science. It is not the best way to try and prove you have telekinises powers, because it moves by air currents and such. Let me explain a different, yet similar scenario for you.

A leaf is blowing in the wind, but I'm concentrating on it, saying it's my mind power moving it. Then someone comes up and says, no sorry, that's the wind blowing it. And I say no, it's my mind power. Which side are you going to believe?

So it is the same with the psi wheel, it moves by air currents and heat. But now people claim it's mind powers. Who are you going to believe?

BOTH ARE NATURAL FORCES

In my humble opinion, don't even BOTHER trying it underneath a transparent bowl, because that can be faked easily. To me it sounds like you reckon you are quite skilled in your "abilities". If you want to win me, and probably every other skeptic here over, I suggest you try something bigger, and better.

As in the other thread.

And black I am afraid I cannot take your word for it.

Oh snap!

I give heart a lot of credit for sticking to it. Keep doing experiments with this heart, it shows great initiative amongst other things. I, as well as most, don't think you will find the results you are looking for, but that hasn't stopped you from trying. And for that you have earned my respect. Keep at it

As has already been pointed out in this thread, science can be viewed in two ways, as a corpus of received knowledge, or as the method by which reliable knowledge of the world is obtained.

Science as we know it began when Galileo flipped off not only the bigwigs of his church (of which he remained a devout member despite everything), but also Aristotle.

And instead of relying on the combined testimony of the inerrant word of his God and of the greatest human mind that anybody had ever heard of, Galileo looked at things for himself.

He got his hands dirty, probably ran off on a few wild goose chases and snipe hunts, managed to prove that there was only one high tide a day and implied the Pope was a simpleton for believing otherwise, ... but all things considered, not too shabby a scientist.

Now, in that tradition, comes our younger brother Heartagram. And while I appreciate that you mean well, Blacksabbath, H would like to see things for himself, too.


Shame on you for suggesting that H would fake anything. Differ with his interpretations of what's in his videos? Sure. Suggest that he would now fake one? No.

H ought to BOTHER trying this because it is the next step in his journey. You are blocking his path. Let him pass. Please.

And what word is this you can't take of mine? I filmed everything I did there.. Go watch it again



I suggested that it can be faked yes, and it is the harsh truth. And I suggested he doesn't bother with it, it's up to him to decide if he wants to or not. If he really wants to, it's fine by me.

I don't believe everything about your video.

Haha and how do you think I did it? Magnets and strings? I'm the skeptic here, I'm not here to "fake" anything to ya. I'm here to show you that it can be done without me even trying.

I am thinking you did it with psychic.

My psi wheel moves around all the time too. Am I doing it with psychic? If I am I'm damn good because I'm not even thinking about it.

Actually, Papaver, I think there is justice in Blacksabbath reaping some of what he(?) sows.

Although he muddied his remarks when I called him on it, the fact remains that he did indeed suggest that H would fake a result. I didn't see any statement from him that I had in any way misconstrued his original remarks, nor any apology for groundlessly impugning another member's honesty.

This is the sort of behavior that gives science a bad name. No wonder the victims feel the way they do about science.

The root problem, I think, is that Blacksabbath seems to think that the purpose of H's work should be to convince Blacksabbath.

It seems to me that the purpose is for H to learn for himself the truth about TK, whatever that may turn out to be.

You know, we don't all live in the same house...Our thermastats aren't all set the same...Our body heat isn't the same...Diffrent people will have diffrent results...And, I tested it just sitting in front of it too...Nothing, my psi wheel is up 24/7...It never moves, unless I make it move...

No Blaksabbath, the only reason I posted the vid...Was because the people here asked me to post a vid...They weren't even expecting me to do that...I made the vid, to show, I stick with what I believe in....

Well, a bit of yes and no here...

Yes, the first, that H learns for himself the truth is most definately of great importance - to him. I am happy that anybody seeks any truth in a world full of mixed information, delusion and of course fantastic truths.

And no, in that the claim that one can move physical objects with nothing other than the power of thought is truly an extraordinary claim. I'm sure that you are aware that these claims will generate great interest. I am also sure that you understand the saying "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

For this whole discussion to occur a claim had to be made. Nobody twisted Heartagram's arm or in any other way forced him to say he could move wheels in any way he chooses just by thinking about it. He did make this claim. We are interested in what he has to back up this rather amazing statement.

To put it simply, proof is not too much to ask for.

Then I respectfully disagree.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is a maxim which explains, and provides some heuristic justification for, your confidence that H will not soon persuade you of the merits of his opinion.

It is not, however, a precondition for his forming or holding an opinion, nor does it describe a prerequisite for the expression of an opinion by any member of this board. H is on notice that if he expresses his opinion, then those who disagree with him will express their opinions, too. If he accepts that, then he may post as he pleases.

In any case, H's opinion is extraordinary only insofar as it attempts to explain why his wheel spins. There is no reason whatsoever to dispute H's only factual claim, that his videos and written reports are truthful accounts of the conditions under which his wheel spins. There is, therefore, no basis to raise the subject of his faking a video.

H is as entitled as any other member to a presumption of honesty, until there is some reason to suspect otherwise beyond the mere and trivial possibility that he could lie if he wanted to.

Finally, in posting his opinion, H takes on no obligation to convince you. He may choose instead to acknwledge that your opinions differ. You get your say, he gets his. End of story, if that is where he chooses to end it.

Exactly. And I repsectfully have to disagree with eigth bits there, because what Papavar here said is putting it bluntly. Short and sweet. He claimed to have telekinises powers, and backed it up with a video that shows nothing but air currents and heat. I mean, the psi wheel, or should I say, air current/heat wheel, has been debunked before. See my earlier post about a leaf blowing in the wind, it has all been "debunked" that the WIND moves the leaf. But now I can come in, claiming it's my mind power, and not the wind. Same thing.

No one forced Heart to make the claim that he has all these "abilities", and OBVIOUSLY there WILL be interest like Papavar stated. Interest will always want proof. That's a fact. Heart should have known this before making the claim. If one doesn't provide proof, his claims will not be believed. Then it is up to him to keep making the claims with no proof and people not believing him, OR put up some evidence to back it up, as no one forced him to post these videos. They asked for a video, because interest was sparked, and that wanted proof. Now that the videos ment nothing, more proof will obviously be wanted. Now it is up to him again to decide whether he wants (or even can) do such.

Even to hint that H would fake a video, or would want to fake a video, is extraordinary. If you demand extraordinary evidence from others, then please do not complain when you are held to your own standard.

H has done you the courtesy of sharing his views with you on a matter of common interest. He owes you nothing.

What don't you understand between would and could? You're acting as if I'm saying he will fake it. I merely said that he COULD fake it if he tried. Really hard not to swear on these forums

In English, would is the token of the subjunctive mood, which is appropriate for verbs expressing the content of suggestions or possibilities. That is to say, whenever I have used it here in connection with the verb to fake.

To fake is to act with a conscious intention to deceive. If you had meant to say something else, for example, can cause mistakes, then you would have said that at the outset, or would have said it by now.

It is a fair observation that your statements hint at the possibility that H would fake a video. As you intended that they would.

Ok I can see we've gotten a bit sidetracked with trivial details such as definitions of words and such.

Let's take what's written for what it is, perhaps? Then we can avoid these detours through the English language...

Black was simply stating that it is possible for the video to be faked. Ok, as far as I can see this is not a personal attack on Heart's credibility. It is indeed possible to be faked. Perhaps what he was getting at was the fact that for the mass population, a video of a psi wheel will never be accepted as proof of something as rule breaking as telekinetic abilities. There are too many ways in which trickery can be employed. Duly noted.

Since we don't exactly have the resources or time to organize some sort of professional demonstration I'd say this is as good as we can do. I can accept that, and furthermore trust Heart's videos as far as what he says he's doing physically and what's going on off camera (nothing). If he were to demonstrate something worthwhile with these conditions considered, I'd suggest he pursue the proper means of demonstration. However, a glass bowl is one resource I am certain Heart has, and I would like to see him use it. The videos won't be worthwhile for me, personally, until he demonstrates what he claims under the conditions Papaver and others have previously outlined.

Simple enough... or is it?

(I will note that if he took it further and demonstrated TK in a completely different way like causing an object to float in mid air I'd be thuroughly impressed and reevaluate my current limited understanding of physics )

All that is required of a scientific experiment is that it have at least one outcome which, if it happens, will change the credibility of the hypothesis under investigation compared to the credibility it would have if the experiment turns out differently.

If the covered wheel fails to spin, then that would dramatically reduce the credibility that the wheel spins because of H's TK abilities. If it does spin, then the credibility increases or remains at the status quo ante, depending on the personal beliefs of the assessor.

Given its ease and low expense in time and materials, the experiment is worthy of trial.

I also renew my objection to the suggestion that H would fake a video. A video can be faked only if someone intentionally fakes it. The only person who could plausibly do that to H's videos is H himself.

This is not a quibble over the meaning of words. If Blacksabbath has evidence against H, then let him present it. If not, then he should restate his objection to the proposed experiment without the use of a word which has no meaning except intentional fraud.

I am restating nothing, sorry.

This discussion brings me back to a point that I have often made in these kind of debates.

Why, to the best of my knowledge, has nobody taken this ability to a physics professor or other person with suitable experience in the scientific method and convinced the said professional?

Why has that not happened given the amount of people who claim these kind of abilities? I can't say this any other way - It really, totally, annoys and befuddles me that nobody will have their claims properly tested. It is to the great discredit of the "Psi world" that they will not be tested.

Their unwillingness to be properly scrutinised speaks more loudly than anything else on the question of "Is this ability real?" (And did I say this DRIVES ME NUTS!)

That's a good point, Papaver, but first, a reality check. H is 13 years old, so it could be that there are few physics professors in his circle. And I think you and I have discussed that professional academics are busy people, and probably uninterested in pinwheels.

So, high school teachers, then. I don't know what kind of relationship H has with his teachers. Back in the day, my relationships with my teachers were generally OK, but I am unsure that I would have approached them about something like this (nor anything else out of the ordinary).
And from an adult perspective, I couldn't advise H to do so, either. It would be like asking a grownup to seek out his boss for help with a religious question. That's ridiculous - H has to work with these people... work for these people.

By coincidence, I just dug out a thread from January.

The OP there is close to H's age, and sought help from a teacher with a modestly unusual - not paranormal - ability. Small objects stuck to his palms, more so than you would expect from the familiar suction or surface tension tricks.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=117221

The teacher reacted... well, poorly.

While of course I do not know whether that poster's story is true, there is such a thing as mucoid sweat, which is an entirely natural condition that would explain the poster's ability.

One of the attractions of the internet is that people retain some scrap of anonymity. Under that cover, H has obtained, particularly from you, good advice on how to explore this matter in the privacy of his own kitchen.

What I posted about the nature of scientific experimentation is standard. The proposal qualifies.

Few scientific experiments, taken in isolation, have ever convinced the scientific community of anything startling overnight. And most experiments designed to test the foundations of paradigmatic assumptions confirm rather than dislodge them.

But everyone who knew any physics at all "knew" how the Michelson-Morley experiments were going to turn out. What a waste of time.

But they didn't turn out that way, did they?

The Michelson-Morley experiments were never a waste of time, and wouldn't have been if there really were a lumeniferous ether. Scientists challenge their assumptions, and so they earn their confidence in their beliefs.

Maybe H's pinwheel spins for a different reason than Blacksabbath's. Maybe not.

It's a testable question. H is game. Let's see. Or more important, let's let H see. Not interested in the resulting video? Then don't watch. Problem solved.

I am interested in H's video as should be evidenced by the fact that I have been making suggestions as to what he could do to rule out natural means and contributing regularly to these threads. I even made my own pinwheel and experimental setup to test it before I proposed the method to Heartagram.

In my previous post I was not actually refering to Heartagram specifically but rather addressing the problem as a whole - the problem in that out of this rather large population of humans we have on this planet, not a single one has made a convincing case or provided a demonstration of TK when the possibility of cheating or other natural means have been eliminated.

Such an experiment would not be hard to set up and perform. It hasn't been done. It's very frustrating for skeptics and it is to the discredit of the Psi community.

Surely you share the same frustrations as I?

But, everyone be advised...That test you guys run, to see what makes a psi wheel spin naturaly, don't nessarily account for everyone...Like, if at lets say, papavers house, the wheel spins when he's not even in the room, or it spins when He's sittin next to it...Just cause he got those results doesnt mean they account for me, because, our room temprature is prolly diffrent...Our body heat it diffrent, the way air travels through our room is diffrent...Just, keep that in mind...

A pinwheel does spin do to air currents as well as convection, this has been proven to be a fact.
Now, I will not say that it is impossible to spin a pinwheel with thought alone, just HIGHLY improbable.

I noticed earlier on this topic that blacksabbath and eight bits were argueing the semantics of whether
a video as such can be faked! Sadly, it's hard to take out the possibility of one of these videos being faked,
as it has been shown many times before that this can, and does occur.

No one is saying that Heart has faked, or will fake a video. Only that the possibility is inevitably there, due to
such videos being faked before. It is easily POSSIBLE to fake a said video! One cannot take that POSSIBILITY
out of the equation.

I myself trust that Heart is whole-heartedly showing us what he thinks he can do is very real to him. I won't
even second guess that. You've got my thumbs up Heart! Keep up the good work.



Regards,
Tom

Yes, but I mean, if I faked a video...Don't you think it would have been faked better? Like Mattmans? Showing complete control, and makin it look flawless?


And you guys don't know how to have fun, you guys reported my sig....Now I cnat use it...

Hahaha, I already talked to Sarumon or whatvere that mods name is...nd he approved my new sig...Hahaha....It rings so true...

No one at any point has said you FAKED your video or will Heart. Only that the possibility of
faking a said video is possible.

I personally think you are doing a great job! Keep up the good work.


As for your signature! I could care less. It does not change my thoughts on these subjects.



Regards,
Tom

(Hey Tom, H.)

Papaver. Of course I agree that with you that you have helped H a great deal, and I mentioned that in my post. I also apologize if my thought in its last paragraph was unclear that that you was plural, and referred to those who had expressed the sentiments in question, and not to you, singular, Papaver, who hadn't said any such thing.

As to the rest:

The world would be a better place if more people challenged their own beliefs, tested their assumptions, and in general cultivated the habits of thought which many real scientists display.

The world would also be a better place if more people respected the distinction between "making a claim" and expressing one's opinion in a forum devoted to expressing one's opinions.

The curse of being neither k-skeptic nor B-believer is to share the frustrations of both. It's almost enough to make me turn religious.

Nah.

I myself have thoroughly tested these claims time and time again and have reached the same conclusion each time.

1. When I am near the pinwheel it moves.

2. When I back away from the pinwheel it moves.

3. When I stand across the room away from the pinwheel it moves.

4. When I am in another room looking around the corner the pinwheel moves.

All these examples have been experimented with and without a glass bowl over the pinwheel.

The pinwheel certainly was not moving due to me willing it to move with my thoughts.