I thought this was interesting



WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.
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An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_...HdmpFaJ0fgDW7oF

This is sad. No ifs ands or buts, that little girl could have been saved through medical assistance, but instead her parents basically let her die. They should be charged with negligence. I'll never understand why stuff like this happens, its totally preventable. These kinds of things should NEVER happen...

What a - snip - pair of parents. If you believe a prayer is fine instead of a doctor when you a have a disease fine then good for them but they have no right to force the child to suffer over their stupidity. Wow what power their faith was.

They killed their own daughter (so to speak) this is so tragic and unfair to see how a parent denies help and treatment due to a freaking faith...this angers me.....

Any wonder God took her in the end...after all tthey were willing to let her suffer because their faith was FAR MORE IMPORTANT than the little girls life...so God must have thought - they are unfit parents, so its best this child comes to me instread as the parents can't be trusted

God gave people the brains to make discoveries...and create ways to help the sick.....yet these people seem to think that God created us all but never gave us all the ability to make discoveries WTF??


They should be locked up for neglect............give them a life sentence and put the other children our of harms way...........

I sat and read this in shock..I had a lump in my throat thinking how horrible it was for her to die all because her parents allowed their faith to come first

So..........when they prayed for God to save their kid..................god DID answer their prayers..he saved her alright, he saved her from going through that kinna thing again..as he knows that if she was saved and lived....it could be possible that they would do it AGAIN if she fell in the second time...so yea he answered their prayers for the benefit of the child...he took the child to a safer place
again I hope these people get locked away for good and their kids get placed into propper care the rotten scumbags...faith should never come before a loved ones health

thank god nlot all christians do this...for other christians they believe faith is important but they would still put their kids health 1st and seek the help of a doctor to save their chid..and they would PRAY that the treatments worked.............<--that is the right way to handle it

I believe the law should make changes for the good of the people..........it should state that regardless of a religous faith...if a parent denies a child from getting the propper treatment and the child dies as a result of their faith...then they should go to jail for their actions

Goes to show how dangerous "Faith" can be when you throw all logic and common f-ckin' sense out the window.

It's impossible to prove to a Christian that prayers do not get answered. If something that is prayed for comes true after millions of prayers, it's God who did it! If a prayer isn't answered, God must have had a reason for not answering it! So, where do you leave room for the possibility that prayers do not get answered? Surely you won't expect that EVERY prayer ever made will NOT get answered if God does not exist, beacause not even the law of probability would allow that. Some prayers are going to get "answered" just due to the fact that there are billions of prayers being asked for each day.

These people should be prosecuted for Manslaughter. And told to recite the 'Riddle of Epicurus' everyday for the rest of their lives!

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I wonder.. from a Christian standpoint.. what are prayers used for? God never answers the important prayers like shown above. Does he only answer small and unimportant prayers that would result in something so insignificant that you couldn't even use it to show others that God does exist or that he does answer prayers? I mean, hell... He'd rather answer an unimportant prayer than save a life?

Prayers are so unuseful that you should never put your trust into just your prayers, and go out and do something yourself about your problems. Doesn't make much sense. How useful is God, eh?!

I just read this on Yahoo! News and it comes to mind a story my mom once told me.

When my mom was 11 or 12 years old she contracted typhoid fever and rather than take her to the doctor my grandma took her to a faith healer. The preacher put his hands on my mom in front of a bunch of people, said a few prayers, yelled a lot, smacked her on the head and low and behold her fever broke and normal color returned to her face. The next day however she was so close to death my grandma said "to hell with this sh**" and took her to an actual doctor and recovered completely within a few days.

I agree with whoever said that prayer should be used as a last resort; pray to make the medical treatment work......

Oh yeah, they're not fanatics at all... They just let their own child have a painful and slow death because of their own willful ignorance.

This quote comes straight to mind...

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

What a sad and sick situation. This is not the first time. I remember a couple years ago here in Oz, a religious nomadic family did the same thing, a child died, and they drove around for several days with the body still in the vehicle. No matter the religion, the misunderstanding of faith is the real issue.

This is not blind faith. This is ignorance. People taught from childhood that a book can do physical magical things.

This is just as bad as all the herbalists and other "alternate medicines" that pass themselves off as having medical knowledge killing people with their stupid beliefs and experiments.

These people should be made an example of. Education is what is needed here, not persecution. This child died for nothing. If the reality of the situation is exposed, and the background of these people (must be extraordinarily simple) perhaps a life can be saved in the future.

<3 that quote.

Thank god for your grandma....good for her, she suggested the right thing...these faith healers annoy my happiness ...sad cases...truly sad..what is it with people wanting to be like Jesus??


Yea that was me that stated this LOL family health should ALWAYS come 1st..always...when you neglect this due to a faith, then you are no beter than a murderer

Not really that suprising.

It actually negects the whole notion of an all loving God doesn't it?

sadly yes it does..but on the other hand God did answer their prayers...they prayed for her to be saved........they got exactly what they asked...he saved her by taking her to a much better place to allow her to be surrounded by people that love her....for he knows if it ever happened again..they would allow her to die...

Incidents like this anger me to no end.

After deleting my lengthy diatribe all I will say is when will this insanity of religion ever end?

And my apologies to my friends of various religious faiths. I know that you all would never let something as tragic as this happen to your children.

Do you truly believe that?

^^ Exaclty. I mean, what will convince a Christian that prayers do not get answered? Obviously unanswered prayers won't do it... so then what?

cant they try both, to let a child die because of ingnoring doctors, sigh i like the idea of both, askin doctors and prayin they get it right

I 100% agree with this. Hell, I felt guilty for not taking my daughter soon enough, when she was suffering from a sore threat for a couple of days, some years ago. I tried to treat it with throat medicine and treat with regular medicine. When I did take her, not only did she have strep throat, which she gets easily, but it developed into Scarlet Fever! Believe it or not, that is still around. When her doctor diagnosed that, and gave me medicine and prescriptions and I filled them and brought her home, I have never felt so guilty and so stuck by her bedside. Well, couchside, because I wanted her nearby to watch her. I kept thinking, I'm such a horrible mom for letting it get this far! Scarlet fever for crying out loud. Luckily, fortunately, and other sayings, she is alright today jumping horses. Never again, will I let my children go for a second with something, that doesn't seem to go away after a day. I personally think people need to take a test to have children! That's just me though.

I should probably should have taken that test, before I became a parent.

I beleive in GOD........I would be praying my ass off as im driving to the hospital with my sick child. I would go to Hell for my children just so they would be well. These so called parents are wacked and should pay for the loss of their daughter. This is so wrong. How could they watch their child suffer and not do anything but pray. Did they not see that praying was not working.....wrong so wrong.

These persons should be persecuted by criminal negligence and maltreatment of a child.

While i consider "faith healing" and "prayng for the sick" ilogical and unncesary, i dont have problems with people doing it, while the sick person is beign treated by a doctor.

I've just deleted a few posts from this thread, and I would ask that people remember the Terms and Conditions of this site - particularly those rules in section 3 referring to attacks against individual members. PM's have been sent out to relevant members, so please just keep the discussion civil.

Thank you,

the crux of christianity is built on was founded on miracles...many convert because of tales of healing, wter being turned to wine, I must read on Um at least once a week a story of someone who claims god has taken away an addiction or healed a sickness, spoken to them etc for many this is a lifestyle devoting thier life's toa god .... many believe that you can raise people from the dead as is taught by the relgion itself....we have in america teleavangilists like Benny Hinn who make a fortune curing cancers, MS, the blind those that are wheel chairr bound etc( except behind the scenes no such thing is going on) yet there are thousands that attend his tent revivals.......faith is far more important then life itself...perhaps the issue is that many really beleive this and there in lies the question??? ...whats crueler letting a child die or misleading, exploiting the parent to let the child die........

a freind once told me there is no comparable prison that we know of like the one of brainwashing....

I'm surprised no Fundies have jumped in on this post with the usual answers

1. they didn't pray hard enough


2 God's taken her to a better place


3.It wasn't in Gods plan


4 God works in mysterious ways etc etc etc


fullywired

They weren't REAL christians. They stated they didn't belong to any religion.

Thus, god hates them and didn't reply to their prayers. Due to them being un-believers in jesus, their god.

This is how I'd reply if I were Roman catholic. Or a pope. Or a bishop. Or a JW. Or a Baptist. Or a Methodist. Or a... Far. FAR too many sub-christian groups...


---


Fact is, they are the 'cause of their daughters death. And if they're also praying for their other children, then they'll probably also be dead some time soon.

God answers prayers, it is not God's fault if they do not want to listen.
Anything that is not logical does not come from God, it comes from emotional desires of the self.

It's amazing how nobody here screams for separation of church and state under these circumstances! But, try to put the 10 Commandments up in a classroom or other public locale and you people would go nuts! As tragic as this story is, it's nothing new. Christian Scientists have been operating under these same premises for decades. A person has the RIGHT to choose to seek medical attention or not. People have the right to follow their faith or not. In the case of a child, of course I believe that medical help should have been provided. The parents should have sought medical treatment for their child - no doubt. But would you refuse these people the right to follow their faith? You have the right to follow yours, why should they be any different?

Wrong happens in every people group regardless of religious affiliation. Do you want to start posting stories of people dying in Africa under the care of a witch doctor or shaman? Give me a break!

Lastly, I personally know of a place called the "Healing Rooms" where people are prayed for everyday and recover from all kinds of medical ailments including inoperable cancer. The walls there are completley filled with the accounts of prayers being answered. In fact, one day you may find yourself or someone you know in need of this kind of prayer. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen (Heb. 11:1).

There are actually Christian sects that believe exclusively in faith heading and the healing power of prayer. I didn't see in the article that they weren't part of any religion at all (per Fullywired's comment), but I could have missed it. I rather assumed they were Christian Scientists who are notorious for this kind of thing.

If this family is not official members of a particular church, they will likely go up on charges. Had they been or if they are Christian Scientists, they'll be arrested then a long court battle over religious freedom will ensue. It's not the first time.

I'm sorry the little gal didn't make it, truly... I'm sorry her parents didn't get her help. However, putting them in jail likely won't change their beliefs much; afterall, they were "faithful" enough to let their child die, a little jail time is nothing compared to that.

That's a good point. What about the parents? Can you imagine the pain they must be feeling over the loss of their little girl? I don't care who you are, unless your totally nuts you love your kids.

This makes me sick. Sure people have the right to believe in whatever they want. Fine. Freedom to practice your religion is necessary and I fully support that freedom for everyone. If the parents were in the situation that their daughter was in and they wanted to handle it by praying for themselves and not going to a doctor, FINE. Perfectly fine. They can let themselves die based on faith. However, this was not about THEM or THEIR faith. It was about their DAUGHTER.

This disgusts me so much because it was 100% preventable. Yet these people, blinded by faith, ignored family members and friends who pleaded with them to get their daughter to a hospital. In my opinion, they should be charged to the fullest extent of the law for this ridiculous act of negligence.

Practice whatever religion you want, but you have a responsibility for your childs safety and THAT comes first. Absolutely ridiculous... what I recommend God fearing individuals pray for now is that these people's other children are old enough to take care of themselves.

I have had diabetes since I was a freshman in college. I did not go to the doctor(afraid to) and it got to the point where I was in serious trouble. I was not even close even at that point to being dead. I am really hurting for that little girl. Remeber this if anyone you know is visiting the bathroom a lot, drinking more than that, or has blurry vision get them to the doctor. You could help save their life.

people are stupid.
and i hope her stupid parents are happy. they just killed their daughter

maybe WWF can enlighten us as to why their 'prayers' werent answered, and why the girl wasnt saved.
theyre religios people? what did they do wrong? (other than not take her to the hospital)

This is still under investigation. Contrary to the parents' own statement, what they did could be judged criminal; in which case, they ARE criminals. One does not have the right to impose one's religious beliefs on others, even one's own children.

They're about to get a real education in the working of the US court system. Just fighting the charges could bankrupt them, whether they're found guilty or innocent. If they ask for a jury trial and lose, they'll probably get the maximum or something close to it (Juries tend to impose harsher sentences.).

Where was their god while their daughter was dying? These cases make a powerful argument for atheism.
Doug

You don't see them not taking her to the hospital to have been diagnosed as being the problem?

You're also assuming that the parents are telling the truth and not just trying to make an excuse. They say they have nothing against doctors. They also point out they don't have a religion or faith.

They're dreadfully sorry their daughter died. Most murderers are dreadfully sorry they killed their victim (Usually it was a relative or family friend.), but that doesn't get them off the hook. It shouldn't get these people off the hook, either. They knowingly chose to withhold lifesaving treatment. That's getting pretty close to murder.

That brings up another question: is a doctor who withholds lifesaving treatment because of the patient's inability to pay, committing murder?

The purpose of criminal law is to deter objectionable behavior. The deterent function doesn't work if you let them walk away because you feel sorry for them, no matter how bad they feel about their stupid mistake.
Doug

This is nuts, I truly don't understand why they didn't take her to a Dr?? I myself had a situation with my daughter this last weekend, where she had to be hospitalized for breathing problems. After a couple of hours, when the humidifier and Vicks weren't working, and she was still breathing quickly and shallowly, it was off to the ER.

I'm glad they have faith in God; so do I. But I'm also realistic enough to know that God also values life, and expects us to do the same. If there's a medical treatment for an ailment, I'm sure he expects us to have enough common sense to use it! Yes, there were a couple of times in the hospital where I said a quick prayer; but the whole time I was doing it, I was sitting there with her while they gave her the breathing treatments and medication!

Humans are imperfect, and so yes, the medical science is imperfect also. But with many more pros than cons to it, I'll take medical help anyday! Especially if it involves my daughter. If nothing else happens to these people, I hope their other children are taken away so they can't do the same thing to them.

right.....next time try to answer the question. i dont care if 'they have nothing against the doctors'
why did they choose prayer over REAL help? and why didnt their prayer work to save their daughter?
other than them being stupid.

i don't care whether or not you belong to a church or not,tthey never ever should have let things go so far.Our parents took us to a doctorwhen sick.Even if parents won't go to one for themselves,they should go for their children. Think you all have said much of what i feel.

Such experiments as have been done, do not support the effectiveness of prayer as a substitute for medical treatment, or even as a supplement to medical treatment. It doesn't work.

If it doesn't work, why bother?
Doug

My hubby will not got to work if our son is sick, I always wish it is me there is nothng more heart wrenching then a sick kid especially your own,, my middle son was very active and rambunctious and full of mischief unless he was sick the poor little guy at the time would just lay on the couch , silent ....we couldn't wait for him to get better and be his pistol self.... I have not been able to understand the kind of parenting that puts faith above a child....I concur i have been a mom for 21 years and i still am learning still growingm re evaluationg trying to be better its a lifetime commitment... ....

exactly.
and because of their stupidity, they just murdered their daughter. i hope their happy
first time ill say it, but i hope they burn in hell. unfortunately its not real, but i hope they do anyways.

Nothing against doctors......No religion/faith or church........just pray.

You can go to a doctor AND pray.

Seriously, WHY NOT. It'll just help your chances of LIVING.

just Stupidity basically

Just a sad story. A little kid's life taken away because her parents didn't make the right choice.

Whether or not you believe prayer works, why wouldn't you get help from a doctor? It just baffles me.

As a Christian, I believe that all prayer is answered. However, it is not always answered in the way that we expect it to be. There is no such thing as unanswered prayer. Big or small, all prayer is answered. Perhaps BM is right that the child was taken to keep the child from further future harm, perhaps she is not.

This family prayed and prayed and prayed, and their family came around and pleaded with them to take the child to a hospital.

This reminds me of a story - a man in a small town was preparing for a heavy rain season. The weather forecast had predicted widespread flooding, so the man had prepared himself, brought supplies to the roof and had camped out on the roof of his house. As the first rains came, he prayed "Lord, protect me and keep me from harm". A group of town members were evacuating and passed his house, they called him to come down to a refuge shelter. He refused, saying that his Faith was strong and God would not let him die. As the waters rose, the man kept praying, "Lord, protect me and keep me from harm". A 4WD drove by and the occupant offered to take him to safety. The man kept relying on his Faith. The waters rose still higher and he kept praying. An emergency rescue boat was dispatched to his location, but the man refused to get on the boat. Continuing to fervently pray on the top of his roof, the water rose higher and higher and eventually he was swept away and drowned.

As he approached God in the afterlife, he asked God, "You promised to keep me safe. You promised to answer my prayers, yet neither happened". God looked at him and responded in a sad voice, "I sent you an evacuation notice, a group of friends to ask you, a 4WD, and a boat to help you out, yet you refused all this help."

These parent's had family continually pleading to take their child to hospital. Yet they didn't listen. Like the man on the roof who had people plead to save them. The counsel and advice of family could have been God's answer to their prayers, but again it might have been something else.

My point is that all prayer is answered. Prayer just isn't always answered in the way that we expect or want them to be. Just a few thoughts,

~ Regards, PA

When someone can prove God answers prayers, or that he exists for that matter, I'll believe it. Everything I see happening when people pray is exactly what I'd expect if God did NOT answer prayers. Of course sooner or later after the billions of prayers that are being prayed for there will be a few here and there that seemingly get answered, but for the most part, they won't get answered(Never in my opinion). The entire idea of prayers is so not-solid that you can't even put your faith into it, and you have to pray AND do other things to get your prayer answered. In this way, you can never know wether God answered the prayer or you simply did it yourself or by normal means, instead of simply praying and getting, which would make it obvious your prayers are answered.

People who believe in prayer leave absolutely no room for being wrong. Nothing can prove to them that prayers do not get answered, because the only way to come to this conclusion is via unanswered prayers. Yet when a prayer isn't answered, they automatically assume God either answered the prayer in some mysterious way, or for some mysterious reason God did not want to answer the prayer.



Would that not be unfair to the many children who starve to death every day? And it doesn't add up at all. Why would the family NOT want them to take the child to get help?



Everything can be rationalized under this logic. If I go out and kill your entire family after you prayed to keep your family safe, I could simply say "God told me to kill this family before "x" happened to them which would be worse than if they died by my hands and went to a better place". And no one could prove me wrong, and I leave no room for error or me being wrong either. This logic is so backwards and flexible that it literally leaves absolutely no room for being open to the possibility of being wrong about prayers.

Also, to me this logic is similar to saying this: If you pray for God to chop a tree down for you, he won't answer it by actually chopping the tree down. But if you take it upon yourself to grab an axe and chop the tree down, God will assure the tree will fall! So even though after praying for the tree to be chopped down by God and having to do it yourself, you can STILL say God answered your prayer. Just not how everyone expected!


Let me ask the Christians a few simple questions:

• What would the expected result be after praying, if prayers do not actually get answered?
• In what way would it be different than what we see today?
• What's the point of praying, if your prayer gets answered in a way completely not-expected, and possibly even in a way you would not like? Example being this family. Another example would be praying to keep me and my family safe from suffering. Let's say the last thing I wanted was to die at a young age. Now, God answers my prayer by getting me killed so that I don't suffer at a later age, but this is not what I really asked for, or wanted. It would then be unsafe to pray, as the result is rarely ever what you expect, which simply leaves you unsure and confused as to what God is trying to accomplish, and how.
• And why doesn't God answer prayers when people are asking to stop world hunger? Sure we can do it ourselves, but we can do pretty much anything that we ask God for, which would make prayers useless if we can't ask for those things. And like said above, God may answer in a mysterious way... So why doesn't God motivate a specific group of people to go out and help the starving? It hasn't happened yet(On a large enough scale to be of any importance or divine like help). Or is it that God's plan was to make these poor kids suffer? And if by asking God to cure world hunger you're going to claim he's going to answer it by sending kind hearted people to help the kids, then that in itself would make prayers less effecient than actually trying to get a group of people together yourself! You could possibly do even better! Then what's the use of prayer?