Cheers

For some reason you ignore where I said they were unfit parents that killed their kid through neglect <---you ignored this for what?

To me with my belief..YES its how I BELIEVE IT BE SO...the truth...its called faith and belief for a reason....so now what? you are going to bash my belief?? go for it..

and tell me what do you believe would happen IF in the off chance her life was saved?? do you believe that they wouldnt do it again??? of course they would..and any other christian that heard that prayer saved and found out that not one doc treated her...........goodness knows how many would play COPYCAT!!
think about it

Seriously no parent should neglect a childs health...doctors are here for a good reason....

Believers will probably argue that: "the Lord works in mysterious ways..."

Or: "God just had another plan for her in the after life."

I am close to throwing up just thinking about this atrocity.

You say that next to "God did answer their prayers, just in a different form". So in that case their prayers did save their daughter, yet you say they're unfit. Those just don't make sense together. So which is it, they caused their daughter to consequentially be saved through prayer or they killed her through neglect? So if someone dies that's saving them? From what? having a life? FFS

No, I have no problem with that belief. I don't agree with it obviously, but you put down other's opinions for quoting experiments to try and prove whether prayer works or not and that's "absolutely stupid." That's just moronic, right? So you show no respect to what other's think, but then you expect respect for your obnoxious "fact" of how things are. Please enlighten me BM, because apparently you know something we don't


How would her life be saved any other way than being taken to a doctor? There was no other way her life could have been saved without them finding out from a doctor that she had diabetes and actively doing something to treat it. There's no off chance she would have lived through their inaction. It's a condition that is fatal if left untreated.

"think about it"

You are trying to rationalize her death as "god" answering her parents prayers and saving her "because she would have died later if this didn't happen now." Well that doesn't make sense. Obviously these parents aren't fit, but maybe in the off chance that they had a glimpse of common sense and had taken her to a doctor, they would have learned how essential health care really is. Perhaps if they weren't so set in their ignorance they would have done something. Then they'd find that this is the real way to make positive things happen in their life, as you know:


This could have been a learning experience for them, but they closed their minds to any other solution for their daughter... this is very sad indeed because the stakes were quite high.




Me too pascal

crtbud, in this very sad thread for all invovled prayer didn't work in saving this girl, this is the reality. it certainly alerts one to use great care and caution when praying (doing nothing ) over getting medical attention.....prayer in and of itself has no bearing unless it causes harm and clearly it did in this case, there isn't a excuse its a darn good reason to take a good hard look at the differnce between medical attention and praciting ones religion using prayer/meditation.. ... perhaps the parents will gain much needed insights, in the event they have any more children......

OK, these parents never get to participate in any type of publicly assisted health program. If they themselves get diabetes when they get older-- no public assistance. We'll just congratulate them on God's calling them home to join their daughter.

What horrible, barbaric people.

If you actually paid close attention to what was was saying..sinse you didn't..i'll break it down for you...

I said it was horrible how they allowed her to suffer and die through neglect..not bothering to get her the help she greatly needed...here is what I said..a list from the 1st page of this thread...



then..



I was very clear on how I felt

Then you say something so very contradicting...i'll show you just what that is...


But in the SAME paragraph you go on to add...

See here is what you problem is..you read my view on WHY I said prayer was answered...even though I said their prayers where answered but NOT in the way they wanted them to be answered....meaning, they didnt get it exactly how thesy had wished for...<---I stated it was just my belief..and you say you have NO problem with that lol ..but over all you did

Here is where you fail to see as to what I called a belief of mine and for some reason you still make it out as if i am stating it as FACT..why I dunno but here it goes....

Not just fact but OBNOXIOUS fact lol..as if..I mean I said clearly it was my belief...and you insist in calling me out as though I said it was fact....WOW how does that work...what part of its just my belief didnt you get again and again??
Cuz when I put this...........

You ignore it and add this...

Wll if you didnt have a PROBLEM with my seeing it as a belief as truth to me..then why this......

something wrong with this..right here...I was dead clear on it just being my belief...but not once did I state my belief be FACT..as ACTUAL fact..so please refrain from constant ignorance to what I am saying and what you WISH to twist it
This next part was fun to read...

you said..


Since when did I ever state or SUGGEST her life could have not ben saved by not going to a doc..I gave off non stop claiming they should have taken her to a doc...I said they needed lockng up for NOT taking her..heck look at the start of this thread and this post..I listed all for you....

You then quote me saying this....

Clearly me saying NO parent should neglect a childs health...now how can you read this and respond to it..and yet somehow get so confused as to what I am talking about??

Did it ever occur to you that out of anger for those parents..I was so angered that not only did I believe they needed locking up for neglect for her health..but out of anger I said its a good job God took her to gat away from those horrible parents...maybe I wanted to believe she was saved ..to get away from these people....meaning she was saved from them ever harming her again

People say thing in anger...it happens...as for prayer..I never ever state it as fact..so please refrain from more and more of your insults

Yes I agree on a lot of what you were saying, until you turned this into some sort of divine religious vendetta. You framed it as God getting back at the parents and saying "muahaha, bet you'll think twice next time you forget to use the brain I gave you!" I see it for what it was. The girl had untreated diabetes that killed her. This would have been avoided if the parents had done something. I'm sorry I was focusing so strongly on the fact that you feel that way. You're entitled to that opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine. What I did have a problem with was how insulting you are in stating you're opinion. As if you're saying "well, duuuh moron! this is clearly the way it is!!!!" plus some bolded text and a few more exclaimation points on top of that.



Yes, I was referring to your reaction to Odin's post about the study done on prayer. You addressed it as absolutely stupid and went on about "why would anyone even consider this nonsense?!?!?!" etc etc


Well you see I disagree with what you believe, but I have no problem with you holding that belief. I never stated I did.



Yes, obnoxious fact, and this is why I say FACT:

You are slipping what you insist you are portraying as your beliefs right in there with the facts of the situation. What exactly can't WFF see here? Your belief as being a fact?

Here you so warmly responded to Odin's post contributing some results gained from a legitimate study that was conducted on the effects of prayer (try to figure out why I chose the word obnoxious):


I don't remember seeing Odin state anything about exploiting prayer... you're just going off on a tangent of hypothetical situations that you see and state as fact. And I'm not sure if you notice... but all the caps and bold text and tons of exclaimation and question marks comes across pretty obnoxious. I don't know if you yell and scream at people when you're taking to them in RL, but it looks obnoxious to me...


It's like you enjoy trashing this idea that differs from your own perception of fact. Why shouldn't it be tested to see if prayer has any observable effects? Perhaps it would have been a good study for this couple to have read before they let their daughter die through ignorantly assuming they were doing enough. Of course, based on the hostility exhibitted in your response, they probably would have also ignored it because it doesn't fit in with their perception of the way things work. A simple attempt to ground the fantastic claims that this is the result of those prayers and you go off throwing a tantrum.


I already addressed how your opinion came across as fact.

QUOTE

(glad you're having fun)

Referring to the bolded text: Then why did you bring up this little point?:

Yes, so you are bringing up the suggestion what do you think would happen if her life was saved after they just sat there and prayed. Am I correct or am I just confused? If I'm right, that would imply that it was somehow a possibility? Therefore you're suggesting her life could have been saved by not going to a doctor... if that's not the case why bring it up? And that's why I said that it wasn't a possible scenario. Because it wasn't. If she survived it would mean she had been taken to a doctor, correct? So then other Christians wouldn't stop taking their sick to the doctor... they would see that health care is very helpful.



I wasn't confused. I was referencing that you already knew everything I was saying about how important healthcare is and not just prayer alone. I was agreeing with what you said there. It seems the confusion is yours...


It's a topic that angers a lot of people. I know it sure made me angry and we obviously handle that different ways. I apologize if I implied that your belief was anything more than that. That's how it came off to me through your own words and I was trying to respond to how intense you come off in your opinion. It's really not necessary to get your view across. I am reading every word you're typing, I don't need you to bold out emphasis on certain ones. Are they more important than everything else you're saying? Should I skip through and only read the bolded text? Or are you just yelling at me? If so, why are you yelling at me? I'm trying to discuss different opinions on what happened here. I admit I got pretty heated too and probably made some unnecessary comments of my own. I think we should probably agree to disagree on the religious aspects on this one, because that's something we probably aren't going to budge on.

I can see we agree on the core aspects of this incident, however. That's really the important part. We both agree that the parents were not fit to take care of their children. We agree on what should happen to them because of their criminal neglect. We agree that prayer should not replace common sense and parenting practices, but rather supplement them if that's what's deemed appropriate. The fact that I don't know if there's a god, but am not going to assume there is for that reason is going to prevent me from seeing prayers as having any merit. You obviously believe there is a god, and you may be right. Regardless, I think these fundamental differences are going to prevent us from seeing completely eye-to-eye on this one and I'm fine with that.

I just hope you consider what I have to say and don't interpret this as insulting. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just trying to make sense of a tragic situation and explain to you how you're coming across to me in your posts.

Yes the topic did annoy and anger me.......how anyone could put faith of a childs health or even put faith over a kid in general.............I may have faith in God..but I will never ever.put my kid last..no way no how.

Yea I believe in God, but thats as far as I go...I dont take it too far....

Was once asked - BM If God asked you to kill your kid to prove your love for God..would you do it..........I was furious but answered - I'd tell God to take a hike <--that was just being polite...but in reality I would never ever do such a thing to my kid

I think the bottom line is, that this precious young lady died, and it was preventable. I will not even debate whether where she is right now, all in all, she could be a lot better off. I just think, in my feelings, that is besides the point. She is dead, and I believe her parents knew better. I am just horrified that little girl died, and she cannot come back. Her life is lost, I think that is the bottom line.

I really don't know, if half the reason this thread started, was to blame religion. I don't think religion should be blamed, despite the ones who should be blamed, used religion. I think the main blame should go to two people, who not only misused their beliefs, but were irresponsible parents. I think it is singing to the chorus here, when you are a parent, who a guardian to little ones that you adore so much, you will do anything for them. Pretty much what Becky's Mom said in her very recent post, you protect the kids over your religion. I'm sure we all have heard about, or have done it ourselves, when it comes to protect and save your children, even at the cost of going to jail and going against your beliefs to be correct, you would choose to risk jailtime, or willingly go to jail, and push aside your beliefs, to protect and save your child. My feelings might be off on this, but I see a lot of religions expect everyone to marry and have children, but expect your religion to come first. Why have children, if it's only for gains of something else, and not care about their welfare? The girl's parents, did they truely wanted to marry and have children, or just be rightious? If they choose the latter, then they should have stayed single and childless.

SAD!

Maybe this was a part of their sign, to bring their daughter to the hospital to get diagnosed for whatever she had wrong with her. Maybe they were to blinded by their religious conviction that they didn't see that these "organized religion or faith" are actually a gift from God and that maybe, just maybe that it was there because He wanted more of His children to be saved by His own children's work.

Just like how family buys another family member a pregnancy test that they're too scared to buy themselves.

Wis. parents who prayed as diabetic daughter died charged

WESTON, Wis. - Two parents who prayed as their 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes were charged Monday with second-degree reckless homicide.

Family and friends had urged Dale and Leilani Neumann to get help for their daughter, but the father considered the illness "a test of faith" and the mother never considered taking the girl to the doctor because she thought her daughter was under a "spiritual attack," the criminal complaint said.

"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said. "Her death could have been prevented."

Madeline Neumann died March 23 — Easter Sunday — at her family's rural Weston home. Her parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy the next day.

"They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,'" the medical examiner wrote in a report.

An autopsy determined that Madeline died from undiagnosed diabetic ketoacidosis, which left her with too little insulin in her body. Court records said she likely had some symptoms of the disease for months.

More of the article here: Link

-----------------------------------------
The joys that religion keeps bringing to us all. I flat out find these people beyond ignorant and disgusting for letting their child be tortured to death by an easily treatable condition. They murdered their own child

Betcha they do very very little time, if any.

From the recent Huffington Post article:

Carl and Raylene Worthington were indicted Friday on charges of manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of their 15-month-old daughter Ava. They belong to the Followers of Christ Church, whose members have a history of treating gravely ill children only with prayer.

Ava died March 2 of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection. The state medical examiner's office has said she could have been treated with antibiotics.

Dr. Christopher Young, a deputy state medical examiner, said the child's breathing was further hampered by a benign cyst on her neck that had never been medically addressed, The Oregonian reported.

Laws passed in the 1990s struck down legal shields for faith-healing parents after the deaths of several children whose parents were members of the fundamentalist church.

Since those laws took effect in 1999, "We haven't seen any cases of significant medical neglect ... until now," said child abuse Detective Jeff Green of the Clackamas County Sheriff's Office.

The Worthingtons could face more than six years if convicted on the manslaughter charges and up to a year on the mistreatment charges, said Greg Horner, chief deputy district attorney. They were released on $250,000 bail, he said.


Reading up on this, the thing that I find intriguing is this - from the Associated Press report:

Madeline Neumann died March 23 — Easter Sunday — at her family's rural Weston home. Her parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy the next day.

"They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,'" the medical examiner wrote in a report.

Wow, this is sick.

I agree that they should be locked up for neglect resulting in death.

But it's depressing that they only get six years for murdering their own daughter.

6 years?? is that it??............I wonder why they only got a mere 6 lousy years?? it was clear it was murder....they should have gotten at least 60 years

This is a very sad story. My heart goes out to the siblings who have not only lost their sister, but also have to deal with the fact that their parents could easily have saved her if they had sought medical help, but didn't. It must be such a terrible time for them. As for the parents, I don't know how they can live with themselves. They say they did nothing wrong, but how can they say that when their child is dead? They say they are being strong for the other children, when they have betrayed all of their children. To say they sicken me is the understatement of the year. I have absolutly nothing against faith or prayer. My youngest child is due to go into hospital soon for a minor operation and I will be praying the whole time he's in there. I don't know if it will do any good, but it can't do any harm. But to just rely on prayer while a child deteriorates is crazy. It's not faith - it's neglect. I'm glad to hear that parents have been prosecuted for these acts of neglect. I hope the same wil happen in this case and the other siblings will remain in the care of people who will support them through this terrible time and act responsibly if they ever need any medical assistance.

They haven't got anything yet - the case has still to go to trial. Six years was mentioned in the Huffington Post article (See my previous post) as the sentence term for Manslaughter.

Ohh I see..but it wouldnt surprize me if they did get away with it like that....I say send them to TEXAS!!!! that will soon serve REAL justice

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey!!!! I have been to Texas, and I think it's unfair to say that about this state. The state is beautiful, with a lot of beautiful people. I have very good friends who are from there and live there.


Oh wait a minute, I think I know what you mean.

I think.

The past few posts I've noticed people say these people "murdered" their child. While I think it is certainly tragic that this has happened and fully agree with the decision to indict them, let's face facts - they are guilty of neglect leading to death - by definition, that would constitute manslaughter, not murder.

It is sad that some people do this under the frame of belief in God. It sounds far too sensationalised though to generalise this to the broad term of "religion" as some have said (along the lines of "look what religion has done").

Just my 0.02c

~ Regards, PA

In a similar case which a movie was made from. The father got off because his faith never wavered. But the mother was convicted because at one point her faith wavered. I don't remember the name of the movie and I don't know if it was based on a real fact.

Ahh, manslaughter is just soo much better then murder! Because ignoring the torturing pain of their daughter till her fighting body was forced to shut down is just fantastic.

Many people sign up to the idea that god heals... And pray for it daily... Are you now saying that because it looks bad for religion, it isn't it?

Personally I think that God answered the parents prayers. The only problem is that they either didn't see it or didn't want to see it. The answer to their prayers were the doctors.

Hi Kratos. I didn't say it was any better. Whatever way you look at it, the child is dead, and that is just awful. My point is that it was not murder - murder implies intent to cause death, which clearly was not the case.

I do believe that God heals. But I also believe that God has given mankind the ability to heal (medicines, doctors, healers), and it is our responsibility as human beings to take advantage of that healing. Prayer does not guarantee that God will heal. Prayers can be answered in many ways, and "Yes, you are miraculously healed" is but one of those. So as a blanket statement, I'd say, Pray AND seek medical advice - sounds perfectly rational to me

It's not a matter of this "looking bad". My comment was aimed at the generalisations that I have seen you and a couple of others make - "Look what religion has done". It was not, "look what this particular religion (one small sect of Christianity) has done in this one case". It's a wild generalisation blanketing all religions that seeks to marginalise all religious believers regardless of their outlook. It is in effect creating a false perception of religion by taking the actions of a minority (one small religious group) and then inserting that into a statement about the majority (just plain "religion").

Yea

Ignorance is just as bad to me. By allowing mythology to guide them, they let their daughter die. That's willful intent to me.




The old 'god works in mysterious ways' arguement so believers can feel safe and happy with faith no matter what happens.

So because these people had more faith in god then say most believers do, that makes them wrong for 'religion' and now their own little group? Faith in god is supposely suppose to make everything else better but putting all your faith into him, her or them is wrong for believers to do? Seems a bit hypocritical and borderline heresy to speak up against too much faith.

John Wayne said it best. Believe in God but tie up your Ass.

I like it.

Sending anyone to Texas is enough punishment in itself.

Has anyone brought up the fact that Wisconsin laws allows the discretion of a parent of guardian to choose healing through Christian Science faith as an alternative to medical services? I mention it only to apply it towards the manner in which the case might further develop. Of course the definition of that statute and what Christian Science exactly means might have to be further explored since at least original reports claim the parents were not affiliated with any church. There are other statutes as well that will have to be taken into account regarding if Christian Science only applies to one denomination or whether it would be illegal to single out one denomination over others who also exclusively utilize faith healing.

that is so sad, idiots....

Clovis, are you really that blind? The parents did nothing and that girl died a horrible, completely unnecessary death. They were negligent, terrible parents. They did nothing to help her, and thats disgusting. You might say that it was in God's plan, but why on earth would you not try to cure someone of their ailments? Should we just give up on someone because they are sick? Should we ignore the vast information we have on medicine? Should we just putz around and pray that things will get better when a loved one is in pain, or should we actually DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT LIKE A RATIONAL HUMAN BEING WOULD? That girl died, and she shouldnt have. Do you realize what a grave affront that was to the dignity of her life, the dignity of human life in general?

Edit: Sp.

c&d I never advocated any of the things you have just said. You have overreacted and grossly misunderstood my position.

My one and only post on this thread before this one simply brought up the legal aspects of the case and simply pondered on how the case might develop. Something I find more interesting as a topic of discussion than simply condemning the parents.

If you must know my personal feelings on the issue I never claimed it was in God's plan so what gave you that idea? As far as the first four questions you asked I would most likely give the same exact answers that anyone else would. If you are wanting someone to argue against your position you will not find that person in me for I mostly agree with you and others. If you are wanting someone to share the same emotional shock at this story and others like it or share the same hatred of religion as others might have you will also not find that person in me especially considering the fact that I have been acquainted with such scenarios before in the past and have already formulated an opinion regarding them.

It is much more interesting to look at other aspects of this case for me. If it is not clear enough for you already though: I do not agree with religious doctrines that when applied exclude medical help at the sole inclusion of relying on faith healing. On the other hand I do not put my beliefs above everyone else and expect everyone else to follow them exactly as I would.

It would seem in this particular case, as per my earlier post (the one where the parents expected her to be resurrected) that explicit laws have been passed:

Well Oregon, where Clackamas County is in, might have settled this issue but it appears in Wisconsin the question is still unchartered legal territory. This case will most likely have Wisconsin fall in line with other states when all is said and done. It is likely as well that if the couple somehow manages to use the already existing law to avoid a guilty sentence that the existing statutes will be revisited in short order by the state legislature.

Well said Kratos...for anyone with an ounce of witt would know that praying when someone is seriously ill and DOES need medical help fast...to NEGLECT their needs..IMO thats as good as MURDER...

fry the gits!!and let others like them see what happens when you NEGLECT over a case of faith!!

The pain that those parents made their daughter go through...absolutely horrible, they deserve to be in jail for the rest of their lives. I would do anything to prevent my daughter from being in pain, let alone die from a disease that is easily treated.

That's because you not only have a heart but you have common sense

True. I guess that is why I can't fathom anyone doing this to their little girl and saying they did it for their faith. It seems like a cop out IMO.

*crossing his fingers to see a life sentence*

I wonder if the parents have personally come along to comprehend what they've done or if they still view this as a test of faith... their jail time to be equated to a religious persecution and test of will... frankly I wouldn't be surprised with these two....

I hope their other kids are coping okay...........

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey?!?!?!? Have you been there? I'm just wondering why you say so.

I have some very good friends, who we lived near on the base in New Jersey. Good people. Are you saying they are being tortured in their very own native state?

Plus, I have been there. I LOVED IT! It was theraputic! It was beautiful! It's a reward!!!

New Jersey on the other hand....................................and I lived there for nine years.........................................


No! No! Forget I mentioned that!!!!!

No one deserves New Jersey!

Saying that Texas doesn't have the best reputation in some parts of the world. Though it is a big enough state to have some parts far worse than others.

*crosses fingers and hopes for an even longer sentence*

Good question crtbud...now if they have heart and common sense to see that what they did not only failed but if any one of their other kids fell really ill, would they be serious to take yet another risk? Well anyone with heart and sense would aviod this from ever happening agan..but it is scary to think that they will just put it down to......

God taking care of their kid in heaven and so he might just help next time? <--------thats scary to consider...and the law would fry them for sure if this ever were to happen again..and I wouldn't be surprized if they did think this..due to the fact they felt so strongly for their faith in order to neglect a sick child in the 1st place..

I believe these people seriously need to see a shrink while in prison ..and I have to say this but, they do need a long sentence and their other kids taken into care..then that way they wont be at risk
The law should come down heavy on anyone that puts a faith in front of their childs care / health...if they law is lenient and only gives them both a few years, this will not scare others like them, that may well think its OK to do what these guys did

My motto - Believing in God is all good, but when you place your faith over your childs health and care due to your faith, then you are no better than an UN-FIT PARENT and you need help!!

*whimper* *Gasp* *hiccup*, --- and I lived there for nine years! *whimper* *sob* *choke*
Seriously, every place has it's ups and downs. There are things, that I have learned in New Jersey and from New Jersians that I will treasure. Again, though I know why it is named the 'Garden State', you have to see it in the lower half, where I lived. Now the Northen half, well, do keep your windows up driving on the turnpike!! I strongly advise it.


Well, that is true, or shall I say some parts better, while others could be worse. My best friend there, who is ten years younger than I, I respect and feel she is my idol. I learned so much from her. It must be the state, I really feel that it is.

Source

Shakey ground. Hopefully our pathetic state government can review and define this law further so believers can stop murdering their children.

What the......How dumb are the parents and how stupid is their religion. I have diabeties and it isnt something prayer can cure,when I check my blood "3 Times a Day" I have to be sure that my level is between 80-120 pre meal and <180 post meal ,100-140 at bed time,"which is hard for me to do and I have to take my meds twice a day.When my blood is over 140 I feel like something death dragged in. I also have to take lisinopril and lovastatin for my heart and kiddneys,the avandaryl I take for my high a$$ surgar count makes me sick and takes away my appetite,That poor little girl suffered really bad and I mean really bad because she didnt even have meds to help her body cope with its lack of insulin. she had to of been in a great deal of pain.her body parts just shut down and she just slipped into a coma. That is what I fear the most because you can go to sleep and never wake up,thats my life.Feel really bad for the girl,but not so for her parents they dont or didnt deserve her.I say take all their children away from them and have the father fixed and tie the mothers tubes so these idiots cant have anymore children,plus I hope they know that Diabeties can be passed on from the parent to the children through their genes.Darn now I feel bad for myself,LOL. I know for a fact that God didnt tell them not to get medical att for their child,What a traggec loss stupid parents

My feelings are mixed on the state interfering with religion or parenthood but overall I kind of hope the state in Wisconsin changes the law so there is no grey area in the future and parents and guardians are compelled to give proper treatment to their children and charges. Especially with the state paying for a minor's health care in most cases when parents themselves cannot pay that is really a great incentive. Ever since I was a child I have never understood people that would refuse medical services for religious reasons but there has to be a way to somehow start a dialogue with those religious leaders as it pertains to the minors in their fold for whom the state will have a vested interest for.

I wholly disagree with labeling this as murder for as previously stated that implies intent. The psyche of these parents is something that interests me and if somehow we can understand it I feel that somehow we can change it which in the end is best for everyone concerned.

True true so very true.

The old "put words in my mouth" argument You really do enjoy twisting people's words to fit your own argument, don't you. I don't believe I ever used anything remotely similar to "God works in mysterious ways". I just said God does not always answer prayer with "yes, you are miraculously healed".

Since when does going to the doctor equate to less Faith in God? I see what you are trying to say, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with the sentiment. As i said, you are just trying to turn this into a "religion is bad, atheism is good" debate (or at the least, "religion is bad"), which I quite frankly do not want to engage in.