Actually, prayer is affordable; medical care is not. Have you been to the doctor lately? Doug

We are really blessed to live in countries where access to medicine and nursing, even if limited, is still there. In some countries all they have is faith healing to rely on and luckily for some of them their herbs and other techniques still have value. Homeopathy itself has been given a bad reputation because of the many charlatans of the past but perhaps the best health planning one can have is a combination of more traditional medicine combined with homeopathy. Of course this is not an argument for rejecting medicine especially when it is available. My philosophy is if you know better then do better.

On other news the following article has a few comments of actual citizens in the community where this incident took place. Some people make very good points in it. The final comment most interests me for I am quite curious on how this will play out in court.



http://www.wyowtv34.com/News/index.php?ID=24404

But, and this is my observation in a lot of media, but prayer doesn't work! Atleast, the parents should have done something!

I know, it is incredible and the insurance situation in America, I find atrocious! But, the parents only picked prayer, and that's it. I find that neclectful!

Minors in the US also are covered by Medicaid if their parents or guardians cannot afford medical services themselves. This is the same in every one of the fifty states as far as I am aware. But I agree Doug it is a bit disgusting the way the medical field places profit over the general health of society.

Move to Canada or Europe or Mexico.

Frankly, I know people of no religion that actually deny themselves and their children medical care. They don't believe in Western medicine. My mother runs a yoga studio. Not one of those dumb health club yoga studios, but a real yogaic studio encompassing all the eastern philosophies. Many many of her students don't utilize western medicine and do utilize meditation, prayer and homeopathy. So far, I don't know any of them whose children have died... but I suppose it could happen. It's not a religion, far from it, but a lifestyle.

Would you be crying and calling someone a murderer who chose to deny western medicine? Of course most of you will say "yes" ... however, I have a feeling the reality is that you'd be calling them stupid instead.

Take the God out of it, and what you have is a lifestyle choice.

Food for thought, food for thought. You make interesting points as usual MMW. Either way I say let people do as they wish when it comes down to it but if it was my loved one and they refused all available help whatever it is I would try long and hard to have them reconsider their refusal of western medicine if what they were doing seemed to fail.

I agree, and have lived it. Twice. My parents more or less refuse western medicine these days, but twice I've urged them to see a western doctor. Or rather I gave my mother no choice and went against her wishes when she went into aniflactic (sp) shock, I called 911 and admitted her to the hospital for treatment. She had no choice.

My dad fell very very ill, losing weight, hair falling out, to me, he looked to be on the edge of the end, and he's a young man. I told my parents that they needed to get a western opinion, they didn't have to treat whatever was wrong, but if they didn't get an opinion, their's and my relationship would be in deep trouble. Turned out dad had a thyroid problem which required radiation. I'm happy to say, my father DID accept that treatment, but it was a last resort after they tried a bunch of other stuff that didn't work.

I agree with you, it happens all over the place. I would still call it parental neclect. I just think, when it comes to our children's lives, we just know what to do and do the right thing.

This reminds me of the joke when the guy is stranded on his roof during a flood. A couple of boats and a helicopter offer to save him, but he says God will save him. He dies and asks God why He didnt save him and God said,"What are you talking about? I sent 2 boats and a helicopter." God gave them a cure for the disease in the beginning, but they expected something different. These parents let their own child die, and its their fault. Sad story

I am being reminded of the fable by Aesop who said "The Gods help those who help themselves." They prayed for their child to be cured, but failed to realise that caring for their child was their responsibility. It was unbelievably stupid and the result of this stupidity is that a young life was needlessly cut short. I hope they are prosecuted and conviced and that more responsible people are appointed to care for their other children. And I hope that this is widely publicised so that other parents realise that they have to be responsible for the wellbeing of their children and not just delegate that responsibility to God. I do not know how the parents can live with what they've done - their daughter gone, when it would have been so simple to have got her the help she needed.

Did I? You said sometimes god does it and sometimes he doesn't... That would be the works in mysterious ways arguement when you boil it down.



When those people want to put all their faith in god, you find fault with that.

Religion is bad though, and what did you expect from one example that left a little girl tortured and murdered thanks to it?

Atheism isn't all good either, it's just less bad.

The Bible has a few scriptures where God chooses to not even hear someone's prayer. Not saying this has anything to do with this case or anything.

I do not think so. If someone asks me if they can borrow a hundred bucks, sometimes I will give it to them, sometimes I will answer them another way (give them part of it, perhaps give them the item they want the money for instead, sometimes I might be broke myself and not be able to, and other times I'll say no). All this does not then mean that I work in mysterious ways. It just means there are more answers than "yes".

I'm not "finding fault", I'm just saying that these people do not represent the majority of believers in God as most people who believe in God believe taht God gave us the ability to use medicine to help each other (the author of Luke was even a doctor). Many people put all their Faith in God and still go to the doctor. As I said in my last post, I do not think going to a hospital when you are sick is a sign that you don't trust God as much as someone else.

Just as an example, what do you think of the people who committed crimes and then change their life around when God enters - eg, gang members. In the local paper a few months ago there was a story about an ex-gang member in my area who was preached to one day and as a result of that, dedicated his life to God, got out of the gang scene in Cabramatta, and then spent the rest of his life since then going to schools and working with young people to keep them out of the gang scene. And this he did because of his new religious convictions.

Yes, I understand that religion has been used in such a way that bad things have happened, and this child dying is one of those things. But as tragic as this event is, it is not an indictment against all religion. But from your posts on this thread, you are making it sound as if it is, citing this one example as proof that religion is horrible and wrong. Yet there are many cases where religion has helped people turn their lives around and be great role-models for the community, the example in the previous paragraph being only one of many.

I'm not saying religion is rosy and has no faults. I'm just saying that it is wrong to generalise to the point that you have been doing.

All the best,

~ Regards, PA

Great post PA, I agree it seems the bad always out weighs the good. This story of the ex gang member is inspiring, it proves that even when you think your message is not being heard it very well could be. This young man heard all his life about God and he apparently decided to start hearing the word of God. This is an inspiration to those who do spread God's word, it is heard by some and better late than never!

Always a pleasure

You're not a god though. For a god to answer yes, no or maybe or even anything else there would have to be a reasoning behind the answer... Hence why I brought up god works in mysterious ways.



I do know it just find it curious is all on how some can justify it all.



I find it as an excuse to change and that they just want a crutch. Well to get off here I'm going to assume that because Aussie is mostly christian so is this gang member, taking into account he's an invited guest to schools and stuff as well here. Just that religion on it's own has a good list of immoralities directly from it's own holy book to me. From god torturing and murdering a little innocent baby while having his mother raped, an entire town slaughtered from young childrend to elders, the hatred and oppression of homosexuals and women in the book to just start with... But let's take a broader look at religion in general... It oppresses thought, free will, and it's only hurting us all as a race by finding fault with being simply human.

I see no reason why I should just have to accept that because others feel it is a force of good even if it's flawed.

So yes, even if it 'turns lives around' it doesn't excuse people for what they're worshipping, what they believe this god did and the effects it has to our race. The guy hasn't changed into anything better... But is now putting down his gun and worshipping a being that supposely did all those horrible things against humanity and has been doing for all these years.

By your own example of that single guy breaking free from a life of crime into submission to the lord I can only think of this...




Then even if all those other things weren't true, I'm still left here pondering the torturious death of a young girl at the hands of her praying parents. One hell of a flaw you're talking about still. A child is dead.

I find this incredibly sad, that they prevented their child from the proper treatment that she deserved. Sure, if you want to pray for them, then do so. But before you do that, you should, at the very least, take them to a proper medical facility. Then prayer your heart out. But this was...

Unconscionable.

Kratos that is a rather narrow view of God and Christianity. People no matter their faith have free will and it is they who sow their own prosperity or destruction. Yes, in the Old Testament times God would allow the destruction of a whole city that practiced child sacrifice or even homosexuality. That has nothing to do with God hating them but everything to do with those people out of their own free will doing things that do not click with God. It is called divine justice and akin to someone driving fast while drunk into a wall head first with their family in tow. Do not blame God blame the operator. This is the same thing if those cities would have been allowed to prosper they would have taught their children the same destructive practices for they are destructive to the soul. Now people might agree or disagree on that point but this is the framework God has set out and those within the framework can decide to drive into walls headfirst or not. It matters not if someone agrees with this view or not but when someone does disagree they should remember their view is not the only one that exists.

It is nonsensical to blame God for the parents who only wanted to pray and even more so to blame the rest of Christianity. People make their own choices.



Totally unrelated to anything above. There is a difference between justifying it or condemning it but there is also a difference in doing neither. It is obvious the parents did not share our ideals, there likely is a small percentage of people who share the ideals of the parents, and to simply say it is right or it is wrong in no way helps 'us' understand why they did it to begin with and how to deal with it if it happens again. I cannot justify it for I do not agree with their beliefs but then again I cannot condemn it for I do not believe they had the intent to cause any harm nor can I impose my beliefs on them. It is more worthwhile to simply understand why they did it then decide the best course of action. A narrow response of it was 'right' or it was 'wrong' is a rather unsophisticated approach to the incident and the overall issue, especially since chances are it is not a one-off issue but rather one that given the same factors might repeat itself as it has already.

Simply criminalizing it will not stop it from happening and that is something we should be more concerned with. Either stopping it from happening or at least having society be reconciled when it does happen. To me personally it is an abhorrence as much as child sacrifice was in ancient times to some neighbors of tribes who practiced it and as much as abortion is today. That is my personal view. Some of the people who support abortion but who do no support this should understand people like me exists who think both of those practices are sick child murder but restraint comes within my mind and simply demanding people or their beliefs to what I consider sick child murder will not solve anything.

See I'm argueing from the morality standpoint... Something religion thinks it made up all on it's own and is superior to... When their god murders little babies, has their mothers raped, elders run through with a sword, genocides and such. I'm not blaming god, I'm blaming those that would worship him for worshipping a monster not unlike any of our own history's great monsters figure heads. I was just answering the question PA posted to me... And like it's really horrible of me to be against torturing and killing innocent babies and having their mothers raped.

They do make their own choices but the added fuel of religion is what got this poor girl tortured and murdered in a bad way.



It is a minority, doesn't change the fact though that a girl is dead.

Well I do condemn it and I do find it to be wrong. You can understand it, just as profilers try to understand serial killers and other unsubs. Though at some point there is a right and wrong question that has to be answered.

Restraint on letting kids die for willful ignorance? Doesn't the child have rights or do just the parent rights matter to you? A child isn't christian, muslim or anything else till they have willfully choosen... I can't see that happening until they are at least legally 18 as it's a standard here for everything else including being an adult... So that child and all other children in these disturbed homes must be and should be protected.

And precisely which religion do they belong to? I do believe the article read that they were not part of any organized religion... I see their lifestyle as just that, a lifestyle. Not unlike the one in which my parents choose--who also more often than not deny western medicine.

They are still going to get little to no time for allowing their child to die. I'd bet on it if my religion allowed me to.

As you know there is a dramatic increase in non-organized christians in this country.

I don't think it mentioned in the article that they called themselves Christians either.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=744614

Hmm... Believing in the bible kind of gives it away.

Not really... There are Christians who don't believe in the Bible verbatum who are still Christians. There are plenty of people who believe in the Bible who don't call themselves Chrsitians.

Now it seems that it's possible the people in this story do consider themselves Pentacostal... Which, many Pentacostals don't lable themselves as Christians, Catholic or even Protestant. They are their own thing. Pentacostals can range from being quite nutty holy rollers to more peaceful almost eastern/buddhist in their beliefs.

You can't narrow "Christian" down to one thing no matter how hard you try. You just can't do it and I'll challenge it every single time.

Annoying huh?

All Pentecostals have a strong belief in the Bible and include a more spiritual based worship than most of Christianity. This would include talking in tongues as part of their practice. Though they run a huge gamut from snake handling to more old time Holiness even all the way to the more charismatic type which includes New Age type worship with the Word of Faith movement as an example.

They have also made inroads in the past (1960/70s) into other denominations including Catholicism and there do exist small groups of 'Catholic Pentecostals' who display use of charismatic gifts. It is a hard group to narrow down and generalize but I have yet to hear of any who do not rely on the Bible or do not consider themselves Christians. Though for the most they are not accepted by mainline Christianity who consider the use of the Spiritual gifts as heresy (talking in tongues as one of them).

So I would have to disagree that they are not Christians or that groups exist which deny the Bible. But I could be surprised if such groups do exist.

Instead, Dale and Leilani Neumann prayed over the telephone Saturday with the founder of a religious Web site named AmericasLastDays.com.

The stunning detail was revealed Thursday by David Eells, whose Unleavened Bread Ministries operates the Web site that focuses on religious healing and the apocalypse. Leilani Neumann, who lives in the Town of Weston, wrote two posts on the Web site.

--

In addition to concentrating on the apocalypse - the end of the world after the return of Jesus in evangelical theology - the Web site is focused on healing and includes discussions against conventional medicine. It includes a number of posts that recommend using prayer instead of doctors, medicine and other traditional treatment for illnesses.

Source

Not annoying at all... Just reminds me of how far religious people go to twist and turn the bad things so it doesn't ripple their pond. Believing in the bible, means you believe in jesus... I believe his last name has something to do with this but I think we can all piece this one together.

This still does not reflect all of Christianity just the small percentage who refuse traditional medicine in lieu of prayer and faith healing. Most Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions so will not undergo any surgical procedure requiring them.

Yet, it's still christian and religion in nature.

While the catholics (biggest christian group by the way) can preach against condoms in Africa that helps fuel the millions of deaths, you're so concerned about christianity getting a bad rap over one dead girl by her minority faith healing praying parents. This dead kid is only an example of a network of problems. This is just one of the latest.

OMG, we AGREE on something!!! But not for the reasons you want... bummer.

It is hardly a concern that Christianity would get a bad rap over this one sad incident because most of the public knows better that this is not a widespread problem. This is also not the first case nor will it be the last. Do the Catholics have big sway in Africa where birthrates are zomg through the roof?

I just heard the part where you agree with me.



Sadly you're right that it won't be the last case and it's not even the most recent. Shortly after this girl died, a week or so later a woman went psycho on her sleep walking little girl... Stabbed her own child 11 times to death because she thought the sleep walking was being possessed by the devil.

They seem to be. They want to promote 'moral behavior' aka no sex before marriage and not for a kid I guess rather then a 'moraless' but never the less much safer sex because of human biology. The arguement from believers is that if they listen to the church on condoms, they should also listen to the church on not making love. But in this, they are telling people that condoms don't work at all. Spreading disinfomration for their own selfish agenda in a wide spread area were schooling isn't the best in the world.

Actually, believing in the Bible can mean many things. I believe in the Bible and I follow Orthodox Judaism. Your description of the terrors committed by God and his followers has a stunning parallel to the foolish babbling of an ignorant citizen who has just seen the police beat someone up.

Citizen: "They just jumped out their cars and started beating this guy up! The police are corrupt and terrible!"

What the citizen may not know, however, is that the criminal had just shot an officer at a traffic stop and ran away in his vehicle.


In any case, you can't know the exact details of the situtation unless you are directly involved in it. You call God all these names, and yet I am certain that in each and every example you would bring forward, there is some piece you are negligently or willfully ignoring.


You make it sound like Catholics want African people to just have unprotected sex and spread AIDS. You don't seem to mention at all that they teach the safest option (abstinence and refraining from sex before marriage) as opposed to an option which would increase sexual addicition, rape, pregnancy, and the spread of disease. If you teach people that "it's ok to have as much sex as you want as long as you have condoms" you will increase sex addiction which would increase higher rates of of sexual assualt and rape due to addicted-uncontrollable-sex crazed-horny-teens who couldn't help themselve and didn't have a condom on them.

Well then I'm betting then since you're a jew that you don't believe the part of the bible that says jesus is your messiah and you should worship him.

Ahh, but that's where the bible comes in... We all know why god had that baby tortured to death and his mother raped; the genocide; the town slaughter of everybody... Because in all his all knowing, all able and all loving heart he had them all punished or part of a punishment for another for ticking him off because he's a petty child who could have used his all knowing and all powerful being for peace but instead went psycho on humanity.

So sorry if I don't agree that an all knowing and all powerful being shouldn't use violence and terrorism to get their way. Then even more sorry that I don't agree that people should worship a monster that has commited genocide, murdered babies, have had people raped, untold suffering and hatred on earth.



Ahh, but I do... Read my latest post where I was asked to explain...

Sex is perfectly natural and there is nothing at all wrong with it. I mean, deal with it... You're an animal just like the rest of us with the genetic build in.

Well they're already having sex... And they're telling people condoms don't work. Therefore they're getting used much less... Which fuels a good many problems.

You know what would be truly mysterious to me - if the limitless creator of all that is and was and will be was restrained to only answer prayer in one way. That would be the true "God works in mysterious ways" argument. As it is, he is God. It's funny that if a human answers people differently they are just being natural, but somehow it's different with God and a limitless being should somehow be expected to answer prayer the exact same way every time.

Sorry, I don't get it.

Everyone will find some way to justify their actions.

Translation - if people do bad in the name of religion, it's religion's fault. When they change and do good, it's just a crutch that they used to make an excuse to change. A little inconsistent, wouldn't you say? If it were consistent, either religion was responsible for both, or both people used religion as a crutch. You can't have it both ways

So regardless of the good people do, religion is still evil. Your prejudices are becoming clearer by the post. Thank you,

~ PA

I think if you believe in your almighty God So much and the power of prayer then why cant these stupid people believe that their God showed the cure to someone ealse as in the drug.

I think Antibiotics are a necessity . No prayer or healing can help once the body has lost its fight .
This is not the first or last time this type of death has occurred due to religious beliefs.


My question is for example our daughter had Strep throat . ( We put her on antibiotics )
So, what if her tonsils abscessed , or needed taken out because we did not medicate her?

I guess I do not understand the Cults or Scientology etc. The poor people who have to suffer
and or die due to beliefs and or faith .

That would be something... If that turned out to be all true, I'd leap down to my knees in a heartbeat.

That's just it to... They knew god doesn't answer prayers and they still let their daughter die while praying to him.



I can agree on that. Just meaning how they can justify it within the realm of their faith but also to their moral sense of being human.



Not really. Just means religion is bad straight across the board. They changed but they didn't become good in terms of the religion they choose. You don't win any prizes from me by worshipping a monster... Real or not.



Hey, people choose the religion they wanted to follow... I shouldn't look at that religion and see if I agree with it or not to? I should just ignore the facts that I disagree with? Maybe a baby being tortured to death and it's mother raped in some sick twisted justice way is fine with you... I'm sorry that it isn't right for me.

Prejudices... Heh... As if the bible doesn't say that I'm evil and going to hell.

Let's Imagine for a moment:

Your a person who is having sex (unprotected) and you dont' want to get a disease.

I say, "You can avoid getting a disease!"

You say, "Really? How?"

I say, "You can stop having sex and wait till you're married!"

You say, "Nope sorry, I'm just an animal and I would rather follow my natural impulses and keep on having sex!"

I say, "Alright, to each his own."

You end up getting a disease a few days later.

You come to me and say "Why didn't you tell me I could have sex with condoms!?! Now I have AIDS!"

Now, in that situation, who's fault is it that you got AIDS? If you want to behave like an animal, and don't want to take the advice given to you, than it's your own fault if you get an STD and die. Live like an animal, die like an animal.


In the case of this girl who died, it's the same thing. The family wanted to live like animals and not take advice from family members or go to a doctor. I would presume that the girl also believed as her parents and did not seek medical attention because last I checked 11-year old girls were perfectly capable of calling the police. The concept is the same, and yet you condemn the family for what they have done. After all, they're just animals.

I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread. My daughter actually got Strep throat. She has gotten it a couple of times. One time, when she complained of a sore throat, and this is where I feel horrible as a mom, I didn't take her to a doctor right away. I thought it was a simple sore throat, and with cold medicine, it would go away. When I did take her, and she was feeling different symptoms(SP?), her doctor said she had scarlet fever from a pro-longed strep throat. I mean, man, I felt horrified. My daughter got her proscribed anti-biotics and other medicines and when I took her home, I stayed by her bedside constantly. Scarlet fever!!?!?!?
I thought no one got that anymore?? I wonder, how would that take care of itself on just prayer alone?

I'm sure you would have mentioned increased unwanted pregnancies, because I would think that once you get married and then have sex, then that would increase pregnancy.
Although, how does marriage and saved sex prevent rape, sexual addiction and the spread of disease? There could be those who came into the marriage virgin, become sexually addicted, and have that wreck the marriage! Rape prevented by marriage, saving sex until marriage? How? Wasn't there marital rape, and nothing was done about it? And marriage cannot assure you wont spread of disease, I assuming you mean STD's. One could bring it in and give it to the other. How can you be assured you are teaching everyone these skills?


I'm curious, how do you see that others are teaching everyone to have as much sex as they want? I don't know if you are doing it, but I do so many in the media and close to me, assuming that once there are condoms handy, that it's inviting everyone to have as much sex as they want! Did anyone even thing that those who use them, are actually being just as responsible? Aren't people insulting the intelligence on how they are responsible? Makes me think, that some people assume, there is little print on condom packages that say, 'you have a condom! Go jump anything that moves!'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I personally do not like to say anything about humans being just like animals, and I see all animals being different from each other, but that is just me. But, what if someone who saved sex until marriage, and came to you and said, that still got a STD? Like I mentioned earlier in this post, marriage is not fool proof against that. Are they still behaving like animals?

beliefs sometimes can make you as sick as having a mental illness ... are some beliefs a mental illness???

If you wait until you are married to have sex these things are less likely to happen. Sure, it can happen, and probably will at first. But if people keep waiting until their married to have sex then by the third or fouth generation these things will hardly be a problem.


If people feel that they can have sex without getting pregnant or catching an STD then they will have more of it.


No of course not. They were unfortunate. Of course you would have to wonder how their spouse got it. It's just a matter of investigation. However, in a marital setting it's less likely to occur then in a having sex with people your not married to when you feel like it setting.

Excellent quote MW...very well said

Remove God and all you have is a lifestyle choice...this is why they should never get off lightly...

Imagine if people thought it was OK to kill anyone that ate meat and said it was their beliefs, that anyone who eats meat is linked with Satan...and God wishes for them to die..they are just doing Gods work..to save their souls by killing them (even though that doesn't make sense but...hey)...<--saying its areligious belief IMO is just a cop out to try and get off scot free..for when you remove the GOD from it, all you have left is nothing more than an evil plan/choice

wow I am a vegetarian - maybe I should promote this as my new belief!!! LMAO

Sadly I have to agree with you. If every person thought for themselves we would live in a different world. Too many people follow like lambs to the slaughter instead of thinking for themselves. If these people had true faith they would have believed that God created doctors to heal us. Instead they followed their religions rules instead of God's rules which states in one of the Ten Commandments "Thou Shalt not kill"

Peace,
Justice

We do not use blood transfusions because we believe blood is sacred and is each person's "life force". One cannot live without blood. But it has also been medically proven that blood tranfusions are just bad medical practice, because of the high possibility of passing along diseases; and it's been shown that people who have gotten transfusions have a higher disease and death rate after the transfusion, than those who use non-blood procedures. There are many, many hospitals around the US that now have bloodless surgery programs, that anyone can utilize. Here are a few links:


Bloodless Medicine and Surgery at Penn

Bloodless Surgery

"Bloodless surgery protects patient's health, faith"

Bloodless Surgery / Floridatoday.com

Transfusion-Free / Bloodless Cardiothoracic Surgery

'Heroes of Medicine: Bloodless Surgery'

These are just a VERY few of the links you can pull up if you Google 'Bloodless Surgery'.

I agree but these actions deny that God gave to man the ability to create life-saving sciences. To dilute the importance of that God-given intelligence to the point that only prayer and the direct intervention of God is considered the only recourse is ignorant to the point of being criminal.

Rock on Ex, great call

I'd add that as a culture with our religions claiming to already know what is good and right and lay this off on an outside agent or, traditon or, a body of beleifs or, a compilation of literature, is a twofold problem we give liscense to any method possible to enforce that with is called flawless and above reproach and close the door shut tight on any self correction ( history shows us this very loud and clear)

In essence what we are doing is excusing ourselves from the huge responsibiltiy of being a moral agent in the first place to make our own decisions and take responsibility for them, without a system of self correction in place ( relgion has no such system in place) we breed a static unchanging commitment to status quo but we have to ask at what cost, i 'd say its too high..... .

.I get that theistic stories give weight or clout to points we are trying to make, yet when we dress up our "points' with the 'lord saith" we breed negativety and intolerance, persecution and too oten hatred and in this case death of a child...........

I don't get that. How do you see it being that way?


How do you perceive that to be? HOw can you know, what each and every individual will think, if one thing is happening. We're talking about various individuals with different mindsets here. I think it's a very big presumption, that everyone will think this.


Ohhh, no, now that is wrong. I do believe marriage is about trust. Marriage is not a magic place where trust lives, but a good marriage will happen if the two spouses have trust with each other. To investigate, is to lose trust, and then to lose your marriage.

How do you get that reasoning? You make it sound like marriage is this magical setting. I'm telling you, marriage is not, it's the people within it. I have lived on a military base, and see people sleep with others outside their marriage, countless times. Their marriage license didn't keep them from cheating. Unmarried people also have the strong capibility to be trusting. I think you are saying, that a lot of sexual active people tend to cheat on their spouses, when that is not the case. Married and unmarried people cheat and they don't cheat. It's not marriage, it's the people, because the people have the minds to be responsible or not, not the marriage license or the lack there of.

A good example of someone I lived near, who was a virgin bride, but ended up cheating on her husband. Now, she should have been saved from that, because she saved herself, and got married. Apparently, that didn't happen. She's not the only example, I have come across, but she's a good one to show you. That is why, I don't believe what you are saying is actually foolproof. I see that from observation, that it doesn't work.