ugh this is so sad. I do agree with most everyone on this board.
I hope things like this do not continue and would like to see people like them condemned for there actions.
Full Version: Parents pick prayer over Doctors: Girl Dies
QUOTE (Mattshark @ May 7 2008, 12:09 AM) 
Actually once the parents put the child's life at risk for their beliefs they have given up their parental rights.
True that
Faith in God is one thing...but as you hold a great responsibility in bringing up a child, so if you are a firm believer in God, then you should understand that God gave you that gift of being a parent and the chance to raise a child, then by right, you should put it's health 1st and never ignore the treatment it needs to survive...
If you beleive God made us ALL...........then you believe he created the mind of science and hence we have doctors to help us...make use of it
Prayer abuse is when you rely on prayer to do all for you while you just do nothing but wait <---prayer abuse...in otherwords...make the effort to help out and seek the help that is already there
my motto - never ignore science or a doctors help!
hmm i side with religion on this
[surprising since science is my life]
this is all about rights and freedoms. recently a kid with cancer was removed from his parents because they refused chemo. this is wrong [read more into it before you argue]. to remove a parents right to choose simply because you dont agree with their choice. its against democracy.
next people will tell me i have no right to put a Do Not Resusitate order on my medical. its my right to choose life or death. yet somehow a parent cannot choose for their child. if one individual must be "protected" from bad choices then all must be [oh there goes my right to choose a DNR].
this is about your right to choose
i see medical science as a hinderence to evolution
should my beleifs be defiled because you do not agree.
my children belong to my beleif system [and my wife's] until they are of age to make these choices [12].
i am RESPONSIBLE for every thing they do until 12[age at which a child can be criminally charged]. shoul i not have the right to choose for him. i have to live with the consequences of my choice but it is my choice.
on a side note:
i find society wants to have no responsibility for the children. yet want to tell the parents how to raise them. does this mean i have the right to make decisions for Your child? [go ahead jimmy play grand theft auto since i dont need to show respect for your parents choice in beleifs]
[surprising since science is my life]
this is all about rights and freedoms. recently a kid with cancer was removed from his parents because they refused chemo. this is wrong [read more into it before you argue]. to remove a parents right to choose simply because you dont agree with their choice. its against democracy.
next people will tell me i have no right to put a Do Not Resusitate order on my medical. its my right to choose life or death. yet somehow a parent cannot choose for their child. if one individual must be "protected" from bad choices then all must be [oh there goes my right to choose a DNR].
this is about your right to choose
i see medical science as a hinderence to evolution
should my beleifs be defiled because you do not agree.
my children belong to my beleif system [and my wife's] until they are of age to make these choices [12].
i am RESPONSIBLE for every thing they do until 12[age at which a child can be criminally charged]. shoul i not have the right to choose for him. i have to live with the consequences of my choice but it is my choice.
on a side note:
i find society wants to have no responsibility for the children. yet want to tell the parents how to raise them. does this mean i have the right to make decisions for Your child? [go ahead jimmy play grand theft auto since i dont need to show respect for your parents choice in beleifs]
by Supra Sheri:
Before I became a mother, I always thought I would be very defensive, if anyone came around and tried to check up on me, or told me how to take care of my child. When I had my first, the town, in which I lived in, had social workers go to the homes of first time parents, after they called and asked to come around and said why, and checked in on them. I surprised myself, and I'm glad I did and felt the way I did. I said yes, and was very grateful for them. I didn't realize the awe at protecting, caring, and raising a child could be, and my husband was with me, at work at the time of the visit, but he was there. I said yes, and when she came around, didn't care about my home being in a mess, and said she expected it. Asked how I was doing, how my daughter was doing, and was there anything I needed. Asked if I had any questions, in which I had plenty, and she answered them. I allowed, because my pride left, and my interest in my child's well being came first, and I'm glad for my daughter, that the services were there. I am with you on this, and it should be everywhere. They say children come first, and I feel this should be practiced on every front.
by Becky's Mom:
Prayer abuse?!?! That's a first for me to hear that! That should be used more often!
QUOTE
Saddly to say though clovis , its in homes by parents that are entrusted to care for thier children they don't.. As a parent i am glad that we have CPS a organization that protexts the rights of a child......
I happen to be one of the kids that because of CPS intervention as a young girl, a life was saved, do i think sometimes CPS gets it wrong at times "yes" are they infallable "No'...its a sad state of affairs when you have to have a service to protect children from their own parents....In this culture we have parents who are not prepared to be parents...
I do feel that as a culture we can be far better prepared to understand and guide children....As a matter of fact i also feel we should have schools that do just this....there is no greater need for self correction than in the area of parenting, the hardest part for most guides is to be willing to get outside of their box to truly consider what is best for another....
if a parent is praying over their child instead of getting them medical care i would say they could use some help or perhaps they should not be parents at all....I have no issue with what one beleives until it harms another and this is a all to common of a story ....
I happen to be one of the kids that because of CPS intervention as a young girl, a life was saved, do i think sometimes CPS gets it wrong at times "yes" are they infallable "No'...its a sad state of affairs when you have to have a service to protect children from their own parents....In this culture we have parents who are not prepared to be parents...
I do feel that as a culture we can be far better prepared to understand and guide children....As a matter of fact i also feel we should have schools that do just this....there is no greater need for self correction than in the area of parenting, the hardest part for most guides is to be willing to get outside of their box to truly consider what is best for another....
if a parent is praying over their child instead of getting them medical care i would say they could use some help or perhaps they should not be parents at all....I have no issue with what one beleives until it harms another and this is a all to common of a story ....
Before I became a mother, I always thought I would be very defensive, if anyone came around and tried to check up on me, or told me how to take care of my child. When I had my first, the town, in which I lived in, had social workers go to the homes of first time parents, after they called and asked to come around and said why, and checked in on them. I surprised myself, and I'm glad I did and felt the way I did. I said yes, and was very grateful for them. I didn't realize the awe at protecting, caring, and raising a child could be, and my husband was with me, at work at the time of the visit, but he was there. I said yes, and when she came around, didn't care about my home being in a mess, and said she expected it. Asked how I was doing, how my daughter was doing, and was there anything I needed. Asked if I had any questions, in which I had plenty, and she answered them. I allowed, because my pride left, and my interest in my child's well being came first, and I'm glad for my daughter, that the services were there. I am with you on this, and it should be everywhere. They say children come first, and I feel this should be practiced on every front.
by Becky's Mom:
QUOTE
Prayer abuse is when you rely on prayer to do all for you while you just do nothing but wait <---prayer abuse...in otherwords...make the effort to help out and seek the help that is already there
Prayer abuse?!?! That's a first for me to hear that! That should be used more often!
What a sad story; this girl's disease could have been easily treated and she would have lived. I believe God gave certain people the ability to help others live fuller healthier lives (I.E. Doctors, Dietitians, etc). He also gave us brains to realize when it's out of our control to ask for help. I shudder to think what the outcome would've been if I only prayed for my hubby instead of him going on dialysis for 2 1/2 yrs or insisted on prayer when he needed a kidney transplant. I just don't understand how a parent could risk an innocent life. 
QUOTE (Watchful @ May 19 2008, 01:04 AM)
Prayer abuse?!?! That's a first for me to hear that! That should be used more often!
lol yup...when someone rambles off what sounds like demands (of the wishful kind)..and leave it like that (looking a gifthorse in the mouth)...IE - Dear God help me to get any woman I want...amen!!! <--stupid but you do get em!!..or Dear God I gambled all the housekeeping money, and ive nothing left to get me some beer, can you help me?! <---yea sure and you'll wake up with a 6 pk at the bottom of your bed!!
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ May 20 2008, 03:43 PM)
lol yup...when someone rambles off what sounds like demands (of the wishful kind)..and leave it like that (looking a gifthorse in the mouth)...IE - Dear God help me to get any woman I want...amen!!! <--stupid but you do get em!!..or Dear God I gambled all the housekeeping money, and ive nothing left to get me some beer, can you help me?! <---yea sure and you'll wake up with a 6 pk at the bottom of your bed!!
I know a person like that and he can't figure out why his "prayers" aren't being answered!! LOL
QUOTE (Clovis @ May 6 2008, 12:26 PM)
Bravo to you lady! And such is your right...
You have the right to refuse treatment for yourself, but that right does not permit you to harm your child through neglect. And that is enforceable through the courts. Your rights do not supercede those of your child.
And blood transfusions are pretty benign: I have donated 89 pints so far and have done a lot of reading on this. My daughter was saved through the use of two pints of donated blood (We're not compatible, so it was somebody else's blood.). I used to live in a small town, so you usually knew who got your blood: I knew two of the recipients.
It really is the gift of life.
Doug
QUOTE (Clovis @ May 6 2008, 01:04 PM)
No one is bregruding you that right. It is the right of other parents over their children that some wish to take away.
No one can take that right away from you because YOU DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT. What you are talking about is giving the parent the right to kill their child. If the parent takes a gun and does it, it's prosecuted as murder. When it's an abortion, the religious right gets up in arms, but when it's denial of medical treatment, suddenly the pro-lifers turn into death-mongers.
QUOTE (Clovis @ May 6 2008, 01:04 PM)
Parent's and legal guardians have the right to make certain decisions for their children and charges. No one is claiming children are property...
Let me repeat: THERE IS NO RIGHT TO KILL YOUR CHILD.
Doug
QUOTE (Doug1o29 @ May 20 2008, 09:36 PM)
Let me repeat: THERE IS NO RIGHT TO KILL YOUR CHILD.
Doug
Doug
I can't believe you had to repeat that Doug..I mean, why would anyone make up excuses for a christians right to kill their own children?
No parent has a right to let a child suffer without seeking real help
QUOTE (tcgram @ May 20 2008, 09:27 PM)
I know a person like that and he can't figure out why his "prayers" aren't being answered!! LOL
Ha ha there are some like that on here too
QUOTE (Doug1o29 @ May 20 2008, 03:30 PM)
You have the right to refuse treatment for yourself, but that right does not permit you to harm your child through neglect. And that is enforceable through the courts. Your rights do not supercede those of your child.
That is one opinion but one that is not always practiced in law. The State of Texas views that fundamental parental rights take precedence when it comes to child care. That was the outcome of the case of Katie Wernecke which was settled through the courts, the Texas Supreme Court. It should also be noted that optioning for faith healing is not considered neglect by the opinion of others. If the state does not recognize it as neglect then it is not considered as such within the jurisprudence of that state or province.
Back to the main topic of this particular case the next stage will occur on June 10 but it appears it might be ultimately settled within the Wisconsin Supreme Court.
QUOTE
Attorneys for Dale and Leilani Neumann filed a motion contending the criminal complaint was defective, according to court records.
A hearing was scheduled June 10 on the issue.
The Neumanns are charged with second-degree reckless homicide in the Easter Sunday death of their daughter, Madeline, at the family's rural Weston home.
...
Jay Kroenwetter, an attorney for Dale Neumann, said he could not comment because of a judge's gag order in the case.
Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard has said the prosecution of the parents was expected to raise constitutional issues that may have to be resolved by the state Supreme Court before the case could go to trial.
At issue is a Wisconsin law that says parents cannot be accused of abuse or neglect of a child if they in good faith selected prayer as a basis of treatment for a disease.
District Attorney Jill Falstad has said her analysis of the law is that it doesn't apply to homicide cases.
A hearing was scheduled June 10 on the issue.
The Neumanns are charged with second-degree reckless homicide in the Easter Sunday death of their daughter, Madeline, at the family's rural Weston home.
...
Jay Kroenwetter, an attorney for Dale Neumann, said he could not comment because of a judge's gag order in the case.
Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard has said the prosecution of the parents was expected to raise constitutional issues that may have to be resolved by the state Supreme Court before the case could go to trial.
At issue is a Wisconsin law that says parents cannot be accused of abuse or neglect of a child if they in good faith selected prayer as a basis of treatment for a disease.
District Attorney Jill Falstad has said her analysis of the law is that it doesn't apply to homicide cases.
http://www.startribune.com/local/19081234....cal%20+%20Metro
personally im miffed about how society works in regards to child protection.
for example a paradox
if you refuse to treat cancer youll lose your child [according to your logic]
but if you accept treatment and by chance your child does survive. you end up so in debt that you must work all the time. this is also neglect [no parental involvment].
and if by chance you take on some "easy money" so you may be there for your children. youll also lose your child.
the only way around this is to abandon your child. this is seen by you as "bad parenting" so they will then forfeit any other children
when you have more than one child should you sacrifice the others for one that might not make it.
truly a pathetic form of Child protection.
for example a paradox
if you refuse to treat cancer youll lose your child [according to your logic]
but if you accept treatment and by chance your child does survive. you end up so in debt that you must work all the time. this is also neglect [no parental involvment].
and if by chance you take on some "easy money" so you may be there for your children. youll also lose your child.
the only way around this is to abandon your child. this is seen by you as "bad parenting" so they will then forfeit any other children
when you have more than one child should you sacrifice the others for one that might not make it.
truly a pathetic form of Child protection.
QUOTE (Clovis @ May 21 2008, 05:45 AM)
That is one opinion but one that is not always practiced in law. The State of Texas views that fundamental parental rights take precedence when it comes to child care. That was the outcome of the case of Katie Wernecke which was settled through the courts, the Texas Supreme Court. It should also be noted that optioning for faith healing is not considered neglect by the opinion of others. If the state does not recognize it as neglect then it is not considered as such within the jurisprudence of that state or province.
True. The laws are not the same everywhere.
Doug
I agree though it feels and screams strongly of neglect but I also know if someone truly believes in faith or alternative healing they have no intent of neglect and that is what counts the most in the end even if society views it as neglect. For this reason I will side with parental rights trumping the state's over our children when it comes to health care but I also am a strong advocate of education and programs and campaigns designed to educate those who subscribe to rejecting traditional medicine to influence and encourage them to seek traditional medicine when the bullet hits the bone.
So true modern health care in America is such a profit driven industry it is quite sickening because it should not be.
QUOTE (Nik Xues @ May 21 2008, 12:50 PM)
personally im miffed about how society works in regards to child protection.
for example a paradox
if you refuse to treat cancer youll lose your child [according to your logic]
but if you accept treatment and by chance your child does survive. you end up so in debt that you must work all the time. this is also neglect [no parental involvment].
and if by chance you take on some "easy money" so you may be there for your children. youll also lose your child.
the only way around this is to abandon your child. this is seen by you as "bad parenting" so they will then forfeit any other children
when you have more than one child should you sacrifice the others for one that might not make it.
truly a pathetic form of Child protection.
for example a paradox
if you refuse to treat cancer youll lose your child [according to your logic]
but if you accept treatment and by chance your child does survive. you end up so in debt that you must work all the time. this is also neglect [no parental involvment].
and if by chance you take on some "easy money" so you may be there for your children. youll also lose your child.
the only way around this is to abandon your child. this is seen by you as "bad parenting" so they will then forfeit any other children
when you have more than one child should you sacrifice the others for one that might not make it.
truly a pathetic form of Child protection.
So true modern health care in America is such a profit driven industry it is quite sickening because it should not be.
QUOTE (Nik Xues @ May 21 2008, 12:50 PM)
personally im miffed about how society works in regards to child protection.
for example a paradox
if you refuse to treat cancer youll lose your child [according to your logic]
but if you accept treatment and by chance your child does survive. you end up so in debt that you must work all the time. this is also neglect [no parental involvment].
and if by chance you take on some "easy money" so you may be there for your children. youll also lose your child.
the only way around this is to abandon your child. this is seen by you as "bad parenting" so they will then forfeit any other children
when you have more than one child should you sacrifice the others for one that might not make it.
truly a pathetic form of Child protection.
for example a paradox
if you refuse to treat cancer youll lose your child [according to your logic]
but if you accept treatment and by chance your child does survive. you end up so in debt that you must work all the time. this is also neglect [no parental involvment].
and if by chance you take on some "easy money" so you may be there for your children. youll also lose your child.
the only way around this is to abandon your child. this is seen by you as "bad parenting" so they will then forfeit any other children
when you have more than one child should you sacrifice the others for one that might not make it.
truly a pathetic form of Child protection.
Agreed that Social Services and the laws are not what they ought to be. The medical crisis in the U.S. is in desperate need of attention and I don't hear any candidate talking about doing anything effective about it. Doesn't look like this will end anytime soon.
I was in that situation in 1994 and spent the next seven years working two full-time jobs to pay off a $305,000 debt. I did it, but it cost me my health, my business and one of the jobs. You're right.
I'm not sure what you mean by "easy money," but I presume you mean stealing some. What is "right" is what is just; it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what is legal. I am not in a position to judge what is "good" or "bad" in another's situation.
Doug
The case is going to trial but the judge also said the Wisconsin Supreme Court might have its say before the criminal trial even begins.
(source)
On May 19 an article was published which dealt with the parent's assets, the possibility of them declaring bankruptcy, and one of the parent's attorney also stating he might go bankrupt to but was willing to take on the case because he believed in it. The story can no longer be found but there was other issues discussed such as one public defender requesting he did not want to take on the case because of financial issues that could stem from it.
QUOTE
WAUSAU, Wis. (AP) - A judge Tuesday ordered parents to stand trial on reckless homicide charges for praying instead of seeking medical help as their 11-year-old daughter died of diabetes.
Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard issued his order after Dale and Leilani Neumann waived their right to a preliminary hearing - a proceeding where prosecutors must present sufficient evidence to justify the charges.
Defense attorneys said it was in the parents' best interests to forego the proceeding, but they did not elaborate. No date was set for the couple to enter pleas.
Earlier Tuesday morning, Howard rejected a defense motion to dismiss the charges, ruling the criminal complaint sufficiently spelled out why the couple was charged with second-degree reckless homicide. The document had enough information for the couple to mount a defense, he said.
...
Howard has said the case could go to the state Supreme Court before trial because of the religious issues involved.
At issue is a Wisconsin law that says a parent cannot be accused of abuse or neglect of a child if in good faith they selected prayer as treatment for a disease. District Attorney Jill Falstad has said her analysis of the law is that it doesn't apply to homicide cases.
Gene Linehan, the attorney for Leilani Neumann, said Tuesday that motions regarding the constitutional issues in the case are expected to be filed within the next month.
Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard issued his order after Dale and Leilani Neumann waived their right to a preliminary hearing - a proceeding where prosecutors must present sufficient evidence to justify the charges.
Defense attorneys said it was in the parents' best interests to forego the proceeding, but they did not elaborate. No date was set for the couple to enter pleas.
Earlier Tuesday morning, Howard rejected a defense motion to dismiss the charges, ruling the criminal complaint sufficiently spelled out why the couple was charged with second-degree reckless homicide. The document had enough information for the couple to mount a defense, he said.
...
Howard has said the case could go to the state Supreme Court before trial because of the religious issues involved.
At issue is a Wisconsin law that says a parent cannot be accused of abuse or neglect of a child if in good faith they selected prayer as treatment for a disease. District Attorney Jill Falstad has said her analysis of the law is that it doesn't apply to homicide cases.
Gene Linehan, the attorney for Leilani Neumann, said Tuesday that motions regarding the constitutional issues in the case are expected to be filed within the next month.
(source)
On May 19 an article was published which dealt with the parent's assets, the possibility of them declaring bankruptcy, and one of the parent's attorney also stating he might go bankrupt to but was willing to take on the case because he believed in it. The story can no longer be found but there was other issues discussed such as one public defender requesting he did not want to take on the case because of financial issues that could stem from it.
QUOTE (Doug1o29 @ May 20 2008, 04:36 PM)
QUOTE (Clovis @ May 6 2008, 02:04 PM)
Parent's and legal guardians have the right to make certain decisions for their children and charges. No one is claiming children are property...
Let me repeat: THERE IS NO RIGHT TO KILL YOUR CHILD.Hey my friend
I think a better way of saying that would be 'There is no right to let your child (or for that matter any child) die from action or in-action'
+1 that the parents should be held for Manslaughter. To ignore the needs of a child is, to me, tantamount to the worst forms of physical abuse. Its alright if you want to pray for them, it can only help but never hurt after all. BUT. To refuse medical assistance? Those. Bloody. Idiots.
QUOTE (churchanddestroy @ Mar 28 2008, 06:48 AM)
This is sad. No ifs ands or buts, that little girl could have been saved through medical assistance, but instead her parents basically let her die. They should be charged with negligence. I'll never understand why stuff like this happens, its totally preventable. These kinds of things should NEVER happen...
They certainly should be charged with negligence,this is a terrible story.
These overtly superstitious folk who utterly disregard and ignore medical science instead choosing to put the fate of others in the hands of a 'mystical being who inhabits the sky' are a danger to themselves and others.
QUOTE (karl 12 @ Jun 11 2008, 11:11 AM)
They certainly should be charged with negligence,this is a terrible story.
These overtly superstitious folk who utterly disregard and ignore medical science instead choosing to put the fate of others in the hands of a 'mystical being who inhabits the sky' are a danger to themselves and others.
These overtly superstitious folk who utterly disregard and ignore medical science instead choosing to put the fate of others in the hands of a 'mystical being who inhabits the sky' are a danger to themselves and others.
They say heaven helps those who helps themselves, and obviously these parents have forgotten that little saying.
QUOTE (Clovis @ May 21 2008, 11:45 AM)
That is one opinion but one that is not always practiced in law. The State of Texas views that fundamental parental rights take precedence when it comes to child care. That was the outcome of the case of Katie Wernecke which was settled through the courts, the Texas Supreme Court. It should also be noted that optioning for faith healing is not considered neglect by the opinion of others. If the state does not recognize it as neglect then it is not considered as such within the jurisprudence of that state or province.
Back to the main topic of this particular case the next stage will occur on June 10 but it appears it might be ultimately settled within the Wisconsin Supreme Court.
http://www.startribune.com/local/19081234....cal%20+%20Metro
Back to the main topic of this particular case the next stage will occur on June 10 but it appears it might be ultimately settled within the Wisconsin Supreme Court.
http://www.startribune.com/local/19081234....cal%20+%20Metro
It was also the Texas legislature that passed a resolution honoring the Boston Strangler. The decisions coming out of the Lone Star State should never be held as precedent.
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