Full Version: Parents pick prayer over Doctors: Girl Dies
The way I see it, the bottom line is a child is dead. Her parents, her guardians, could have prevented it. I have seen and read instances where children were taken away from their parents for less. I think it stops being a religious issue, and is always a child endangerment issue. It's one thing to be able to have the freedom to practice your belief, and another to risk the life of your child. I believe there are religions out there, that wants to sacrifice humans and so forth. Is that legal? I really cannot fathom how the pleading family members didn't notify the law in the first place?!?!
Praying parents' other 3 kids removed
WAUSAU, Wis. - The three siblings of a girl who died of diabetes that went untreated as her parents prayed instead of taking her to a doctor have been removed from the home during an investigation, police said Friday.
The parents and social services experts agreed the move would be best for everyone, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said. The children are staying with other relatives, though they were not in danger, he said.
"There is no physical evidence of abuse or neglect," he said.
Madeline Neumann, 11, died Sunday the Weston home of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes as her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, prayed for her to get better. Her mother said she never expected her daughter, whom she called Kara, to die.
The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, Leilani Neumann said.
The children removed from the home range in age from 13 to 16 and are expected to return to their parents once an investigation of the girl's death wraps up, Vergin said.
More of the article here: Link
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They should just take the children away for good. Justifying the torture and death of their own child for religion is inexcusable to me. Such savagery stuck in a primitive age.
WAUSAU, Wis. - The three siblings of a girl who died of diabetes that went untreated as her parents prayed instead of taking her to a doctor have been removed from the home during an investigation, police said Friday.
The parents and social services experts agreed the move would be best for everyone, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said. The children are staying with other relatives, though they were not in danger, he said.
"There is no physical evidence of abuse or neglect," he said.
Madeline Neumann, 11, died Sunday the Weston home of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes as her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, prayed for her to get better. Her mother said she never expected her daughter, whom she called Kara, to die.
The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, Leilani Neumann said.
The children removed from the home range in age from 13 to 16 and are expected to return to their parents once an investigation of the girl's death wraps up, Vergin said.
More of the article here: Link
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They should just take the children away for good. Justifying the torture and death of their own child for religion is inexcusable to me. Such savagery stuck in a primitive age.
I'm sorry but I cannot see the logic in watching your child die, and not getting medical help for her....They endangered their child, the child that so trusts and depends on their parents to do the right thing...In this case the parents failed...Very sad......
Thanks for that follow up Kratos. I honestly don't see how the parents are getting those kids back... it's obvious after this incident that they aren't suitable care givers.
Conclusion: religion is a good excuse to experiment on your children 
Well, duh... they should have seen this coming... SOme things, you just must do yourself... If you prayed that yo would never have to eat... you would starve. Same thing here... DUH
Hmmm... relying on God ?
Thank god for the telephone. Thank god for the doctors. Where they expecting a burning bush ?
Meow Purr.
QUOTE
The river in the village a priest lived in was about to burst its banks and drown everything. A car pulled up to the church and shouted to the priest, "Father, we can squeeze you in. Hop in!" The priest replied, "No, you go my children. Save someone else. God will save me!" The water level kept rising and some people in an inflatable boat rowed to the church and shouted to the priest, "Father! Hop in! You're going to drown!" The priest replied, "No, go save someone else. God will save me!" Now the whole town was under water. The priest made it to the roof of the church where a helicopter hovered nearby and shouted to him, "Father, grab the rope!" to which the priest replied, "No, don't worry about me. God will save me!"
Our poor friend the priest drowns and he goes to heaven. When he met God, he asked him, "I've been your humble servant all my life. I helped the poor and did good deeds. Why didn't you save me?" And God replied, "Whatever do you mean? I sent you a car, and you said no; I sent you a boat, and you refused; and when I sent you a helicopter, you still said no."
Our poor friend the priest drowns and he goes to heaven. When he met God, he asked him, "I've been your humble servant all my life. I helped the poor and did good deeds. Why didn't you save me?" And God replied, "Whatever do you mean? I sent you a car, and you said no; I sent you a boat, and you refused; and when I sent you a helicopter, you still said no."
Thank god for the telephone. Thank god for the doctors. Where they expecting a burning bush ?
Meow Purr.
QUOTE (churchanddestroy @ Mar 27 2008, 11:48 PM) 
This is sad. No ifs ands or buts, that little girl could have been saved through medical assistance, but instead her parents basically let her die. They should be charged with negligence. I'll never understand why stuff like this happens, its totally preventable. These kinds of things should NEVER happen...
I agree... this reminds me of that story about a man in a flood asking God to save him and God tells him when he dies that he sent a boat, and camel etc.
QUOTE (ships-cat @ Mar 30 2008, 06:34 AM)
Hmmm... relying on God ?
Thank god for the telephone. Thank god for the doctors. Where they expecting a burning bush ?
Meow Purr.
That's the story I meant to use earlier, I couldn't remember it exactly so I paraphrased, got most of the details correct. Thank God for the family members that were pleading to take the kid to hospital. But they didn't listen to them either.Thank god for the telephone. Thank god for the doctors. Where they expecting a burning bush ?
Meow Purr.
Why does it have to be God making them do it? Does that mean that otherwise they wouldn't have given a rat's -ss? That's pretty sad to assume something so negetive. And if it was God's plan, it was a failure. Surely he would have known this! He's even willing to let a child SUFFER TO DEATH(Not die easily!) to get a point across?
There's absolutely no logic in this. God wouldn't expect this, not my God. those parents should be held accountable- faith or not.
QUOTE (TheAwsmGuyInTheCorner @ Mar 29 2008, 03:26 PM)
I agree... this reminds me of that story about a man in a flood asking God to save him and God tells him when he dies that he sent a boat, and camel etc.
If God knew that the man expected prayers to be answered in a different way, then why would he send a boat knowing that that the man would either:
A) Assume God didn't answer his prayer.
B ) Not catch on to God's mysterious way of handling things, and wait for his prayer to be "answered".
QUOTE (ShaunZero @ Mar 30 2008, 11:48 AM)
Why does it have to be God making them do it? Does that mean that otherwise they wouldn't have given a rat's -ss?
That isn't the implication at all, Shaun. It's just a way to say that God does not always answer with a supernatural response. As a Christian, I believe that God created everything, including hardwiring the ability to learn new medical marvels. He also hardwired our ability for compassion towards others, particularly those close to us. All I was saying with this post was that there was ample opportunity for these people to utlise the gifts that God had given them, and their prayers would have been answered with "Yes, she will get better". Instead, God answered them in another way, though what that is I cannot say.QUOTE (ShaunZero @ Mar 30 2008, 11:48 AM)
That's pretty sad to assume something so negetive. And if it was God's plan, it was a failure. Surely he would have known this! He's even willing to let a child SUFFER TO DEATH(Not die easily!) to get a point across?
Why does there need to be a spiritual point to get across here? Perhaps it was just one of those sad incidents. Death is a part of life, and sometimes this unfortunately causes pain and suffering. There is not always a reason for it. You can't always say that God is bringing judgement down on someone, or that someone is suffering to prove some super-spiritual point. Perhaps her death was just a tragic accident (tragic because it was preventable). As an aside, your statement that "if it was God's plan, it was a failure" can only work if you assume that God had a particular plan in place to save the girl. There were methods available to save her, but the parents chose not to explore those avenues. That does not necessarily mean that God had a plan to save her and it failed. As I said above, death is a natural part of life. There does not need to be a reason or point to it, it just happens.
Just a few thoughts to consider,
~ PA
This disgusts me.
I dont care what consenting adults do to themselves. They can starve themsevles withhold medical care or bang their head against the wall to show their faith I dont care.
I see religous zealots that refuse care all the time...after dialing 911 of course. (taking up important time and services from other people we could really be helping to only refuse care) As if I am supposed to go there and pray for their heart attack to get better. It wont. They will die, but that is their choice as adults to refuse medical care and I am forced by law to respect that as long as they can prove they are of sound mind and understand the implications of their choices...religion gets a free pass when it comes to determining sound mind...person, place, time, event, and consequences of refusing care. As long as they know those things we respect their decision and go on our way until the call again or die...
Children are a different matter though. They cant make decisions for themselves and idiots like this cant make decisions for kids when something so simple can keep a kid alive. What next, someone is going to pray for god to feed their kid and then when they starve they are going to be surprised? This is a criminal matter and needs to be dealt with severely.
I dont care what consenting adults do to themselves. They can starve themsevles withhold medical care or bang their head against the wall to show their faith I dont care.
I see religous zealots that refuse care all the time...after dialing 911 of course. (taking up important time and services from other people we could really be helping to only refuse care) As if I am supposed to go there and pray for their heart attack to get better. It wont. They will die, but that is their choice as adults to refuse medical care and I am forced by law to respect that as long as they can prove they are of sound mind and understand the implications of their choices...religion gets a free pass when it comes to determining sound mind...person, place, time, event, and consequences of refusing care. As long as they know those things we respect their decision and go on our way until the call again or die...
Children are a different matter though. They cant make decisions for themselves and idiots like this cant make decisions for kids when something so simple can keep a kid alive. What next, someone is going to pray for god to feed their kid and then when they starve they are going to be surprised? This is a criminal matter and needs to be dealt with severely.
QUOTE (Fluffybunny @ Mar 30 2008, 02:17 AM)
This disgusts me.
I dont care what consenting adults do to themselves. They can starve themsevles withhold medical care or bang their head against the wall to show their faith I dont care.
I see religous zealots that refuse care all the time...after dialing 911 of course. (taking up important time and services from other people we could really be helping to only refuse care) As if I am supposed to go there and pray for their heart attack to get better. It wont. They will die, but that is their choice as adults to refuse medical care and I am forced by law to respect that as long as they can prove they are of sound mind and understand the implications of their choices...religion gets a free pass when it comes to determining sound mind...person, place, time, event, and consequences of refusing care. As long as they know those things we respect their decision and go on our way until the call again or die...
Children are a different matter though. They cant make decisions for themselves and idiots like this cant make decisions for kids when something so simple can keep a kid alive. What next, someone is going to pray for god to feed their kid and then when they starve they are going to be surprised? This is a criminal matter and needs to be dealt with severely.
I dont care what consenting adults do to themselves. They can starve themsevles withhold medical care or bang their head against the wall to show their faith I dont care.
I see religous zealots that refuse care all the time...after dialing 911 of course. (taking up important time and services from other people we could really be helping to only refuse care) As if I am supposed to go there and pray for their heart attack to get better. It wont. They will die, but that is their choice as adults to refuse medical care and I am forced by law to respect that as long as they can prove they are of sound mind and understand the implications of their choices...religion gets a free pass when it comes to determining sound mind...person, place, time, event, and consequences of refusing care. As long as they know those things we respect their decision and go on our way until the call again or die...
Children are a different matter though. They cant make decisions for themselves and idiots like this cant make decisions for kids when something so simple can keep a kid alive. What next, someone is going to pray for god to feed their kid and then when they starve they are going to be surprised? This is a criminal matter and needs to be dealt with severely.
I agree with you completly they need to be punished.
PA, I just noticed I got the quote wrong. I thought what was said was "Thank God for the family", not "Thank God for the telephone". I apologize for the confusion. I thought you guys were saying Thank God for "making" the other family members insist on bringing her to the doctor. That is what I based my last post on.
It was either a failure, or he had a sick plan that involved the suffering of a young child. Regardless, they prayed for their daughter to get better, and you believe God answers prayers, so in some way or another, from your point of view God had a hand in this. If it was in his plan for her to die at this time for a certain reason, perhaps to stop even worse suffering in the future, why have her suffer at all? You have the power to cause her to die at this age, but not the power to make it an easy death?
QUOTE
As an aside, your statement that "if it was God's plan, it was a failure" can only work if you assume that God had a particular plan in place to save the girl.
It was either a failure, or he had a sick plan that involved the suffering of a young child. Regardless, they prayed for their daughter to get better, and you believe God answers prayers, so in some way or another, from your point of view God had a hand in this. If it was in his plan for her to die at this time for a certain reason, perhaps to stop even worse suffering in the future, why have her suffer at all? You have the power to cause her to die at this age, but not the power to make it an easy death?
I have a nagging suspicion the parents have done this before.....They had 4 kids and as all parents know, kids get sick all the time especially in the winter/flu season.....Now if one of their kids just had a cold or the flu or chicken pox, these illnesses can be cured with bed rest and other remedial treatments, without having to go to a doctor......And also with 'prayer' let's not forget......
This time though, their ignorance and lack of judgement proved to be fatal for their little girl and this tragedy occuring was just a matter of time in my opinion....
This time though, their ignorance and lack of judgement proved to be fatal for their little girl and this tragedy occuring was just a matter of time in my opinion....
QUOTE (MUM24/7 @ Mar 29 2008, 09:17 PM)
I have a nagging suspicion the parents have done this before.....They had 4 kids and as all parents know, kids get sick all the time especially in the winter/flu season.....Now if one of their kids just had a cold or the flu or chicken pox, these illnesses can be cured with bed rest and other remedial treatments, without having to go to a doctor......And also with 'prayer' let's not forget......
This time though, their ignorance and lack of judgement proved to be fatal for their little girl and this tragedy occuring was just a matter of time in my opinion....
This time though, their ignorance and lack of judgement proved to be fatal for their little girl and this tragedy occuring was just a matter of time in my opinion....
That's another example of leaving no room to be wrong. They probably actually thought their prayers were answered when their kids recovered from those types of sicknesses. Since there's no way to verify this, they just continued to believe.
QUOTE (Fluffybunny @ Mar 30 2008, 01:17 AM)
This disgusts me.
I dont care what consenting adults do to themselves. They can starve themsevles withhold medical care or bang their head against the wall to show their faith I dont care.
I see religous zealots that refuse care all the time...after dialing 911 of course. (taking up important time and services from other people we could really be helping to only refuse care) As if I am supposed to go there and pray for their heart attack to get better. It wont. They will die, but that is their choice as adults to refuse medical care and I am forced by law to respect that as long as they can prove they are of sound mind and understand the implications of their choices...religion gets a free pass when it comes to determining sound mind...person, place, time, event, and consequences of refusing care. As long as they know those things we respect their decision and go on our way until the call again or die...
Children are a different matter though. They cant make decisions for themselves and idiots like this cant make decisions for kids when something so simple can keep a kid alive. What next, someone is going to pray for god to feed their kid and then when they starve they are going to be surprised? This is a criminal matter and needs to be dealt with severely.
I dont care what consenting adults do to themselves. They can starve themsevles withhold medical care or bang their head against the wall to show their faith I dont care.
I see religous zealots that refuse care all the time...after dialing 911 of course. (taking up important time and services from other people we could really be helping to only refuse care) As if I am supposed to go there and pray for their heart attack to get better. It wont. They will die, but that is their choice as adults to refuse medical care and I am forced by law to respect that as long as they can prove they are of sound mind and understand the implications of their choices...religion gets a free pass when it comes to determining sound mind...person, place, time, event, and consequences of refusing care. As long as they know those things we respect their decision and go on our way until the call again or die...
Children are a different matter though. They cant make decisions for themselves and idiots like this cant make decisions for kids when something so simple can keep a kid alive. What next, someone is going to pray for god to feed their kid and then when they starve they are going to be surprised? This is a criminal matter and needs to be dealt with severely.
EXCELLENT post...you said it...children cant make decissions themselves but when a child belongs to a religious nut...there is no escape...these religious nuts need help..and locked up if they are guilty of the same thing...a law should be passed to prevent people like this from doing this nonsense...
QUOTE (Paranoid Android @ Mar 29 2008, 01:05 AM)
. Perhaps BM is right that the child was taken to keep the child from further future harm, perhaps she is not.
Perhapps?? PA I know I was right....God DID hear their prayer..God saved the girl from going through that again..for God has thought, if I save her, let her live, they will do it again and so on....the best way to deal with this is to save the girl..take her to a much better place and teach them a valuable lesson in life...that lesson is this............
I created you...I gave you an ability...I gave each person different abilities...many of whice are those that have the ability to TREAT the sick and SAVE lives....each to their own...if you ignore what I have created for your OWN benefit, thne you will pay
Taking their daughter away from them saved her...........lets hope if any of the other kids get sick that maybe they will not be as quick to neglect their needs...
Praying is good when you at least do some of the work....you have to at least show God how willing you are...IE take you kid to a doctor..and then PRAY like mad that the treatment works...leaving the REST to God.....................that PA is the truth as I see it
millions of christians love their faith but they also KNOW that their family are important...they wouldnt neglect a sick child....thank goodness that not all christians do this...for if all christians did...my word...christianity would have died out long before now...for when you think back to the time when IE -Penicillin..wasn't discovered untill 1928...and it is known as a life saver...but before that..so many died of what we now call the flu virus...so if every last christian believed that medical help was not needed...blimey I would hate to think how many christians would be left in todays world!!!
PA..you are most likely dating some young woman and I have a feeling that maybe in the next few odd years you will be ready to settle down and be a father...and I have a feeling that, once you do and you see how your life totally changed (I neve used to belie a persons lif changed from having kids but soon got a shock).....you will not only love your kid..but the sec they take ill, you will jump to seek the best help you can..and pray it works.......just guessing lol but thats the vibe I pick up from you...id say there is no way you would neglect your own child..you would use both prayer and seek the propper care required
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Mar 28 2008, 06:32 PM)
You don't see them not taking her to the hospital to have been diagnosed as being the problem?
You're also assuming that the parents are telling the truth and not just trying to make an excuse. They say they have nothing against doctors. They also point out they don't have a religion or faith.
You're also assuming that the parents are telling the truth and not just trying to make an excuse. They say they have nothing against doctors. They also point out they don't have a religion or faith.
WWF PLEASE waken up..the parents ARE telling the truth...there are christians (not too many thank goodnes) that refuse any form of medical treatment..this is fact...those christians think that prayer is the only answer.......again it is FACT
God did answer their prayer too..think about it WWF..God answered them and saved the girl gee im not a christian and EVEN I KNOW THAT!!!!
yet you cant see it!!
QUOTE (Dante's Inferno @ Mar 28 2008, 08:37 AM)
Do you truly believe that?
Nahh I just posted it for a laugh!!!....OF COURSE I believe in it...........why shouldn't I?? I believe their prayers where in fact answered and the girl was saved...why is this so hard for anyone to take in??
WAKEY WAKEY RISE AND SHINE!!!...I gave the reason as to WHY I believe in it
everyone has a set time on this earth, everyone dies. some have short time, some have long years, but all die when it is time for them to do so- only the manner differs.
by giving man the knowledge of medicine, and the wisdom to use it to cure, He provided the answer to their prayers, they just did not act upon it. many people see people in need on a daily basis and do nothing, perhaps the one who does something about it is not moved by thier own human compassion, but because God nudged them to do something.
the family had the means to save the child, and did not use it. that is in no way Gods fault. perhaps, as was suggested, this family had done similar things before, with no ill effects. but since these people refused to care for the precious gifts given them, perhaps God allowed this little one to die so that people would be forced to take action to protect the other children. As well as to get His people to stand up and say what we have been saying, prayer does work, but it is wasted when the answer is already there for us.
by giving man the knowledge of medicine, and the wisdom to use it to cure, He provided the answer to their prayers, they just did not act upon it. many people see people in need on a daily basis and do nothing, perhaps the one who does something about it is not moved by thier own human compassion, but because God nudged them to do something.
the family had the means to save the child, and did not use it. that is in no way Gods fault. perhaps, as was suggested, this family had done similar things before, with no ill effects. but since these people refused to care for the precious gifts given them, perhaps God allowed this little one to die so that people would be forced to take action to protect the other children. As well as to get His people to stand up and say what we have been saying, prayer does work, but it is wasted when the answer is already there for us.
QUOTE (Odd Christian @ Mar 30 2008, 05:04 AM)
the family had the means to save the child, and did not use it. that is in no way Gods fault. .
nope it's not Gods fault..its their own ault, which is why they need locked up, they killed their own kid with neglect
Those parents killed their daughter. Prayer does not work. And don’t give me that “god did answer their prayer just not in the way they asked” crap. That’s one of the biggest cop outs I’ve heard.
Has anyone heard about "The Great Prayer Experiment”. It scientifically tested the effects of prayer by three Christian congregations on three groups of heart-bypass surgery patients.
Here is a summary from The John Templeton Foundation:
Some patients were told they may or may not receive intercessory prayer: complications occurred in 52 percent of those who received prayer (Group 1) versus 51 percent of those who did not receive prayer (Group 2). Complications occurred in 59 percent of patients who were told they would receive prayer (Group 3) versus 52 percent, who also received prayer, but were uncertain of receiving it (Group 1). Major complications and thirty-day mortality were similar across the three groups.
And here is an abstract from the American Heart Journal of April 2006:
Background
Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
Methods
Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.
Results
In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
Conclusions
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
Has anyone heard about "The Great Prayer Experiment”. It scientifically tested the effects of prayer by three Christian congregations on three groups of heart-bypass surgery patients.
Here is a summary from The John Templeton Foundation:
Some patients were told they may or may not receive intercessory prayer: complications occurred in 52 percent of those who received prayer (Group 1) versus 51 percent of those who did not receive prayer (Group 2). Complications occurred in 59 percent of patients who were told they would receive prayer (Group 3) versus 52 percent, who also received prayer, but were uncertain of receiving it (Group 1). Major complications and thirty-day mortality were similar across the three groups.
And here is an abstract from the American Heart Journal of April 2006:
Background
Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
Methods
Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.
Results
In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
Conclusions
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
QUOTE (Odin11 @ Mar 30 2008, 07:21 AM)
Those parents killed their daughter. Prayer does not work. And don’t give me that “god did answer their prayer just not in the way they asked” crap. That’s one of the biggest cop outs I’ve heard.
I said he DID answer their prayers..he DID save her...............he bloody saved her from any more harm from them two wacko's...if they had of been granted their wish and she lived...they would have done it again and took God for granted and every other christian would find this out and bloody all start their praying instead of letting their loved ones get REAL MEDICAL HELP
Now WTF do you think would happen if every christian did this??? THINK about it
And what in the blue hell are you doing throwing out the IMPOSSIBLE crap I have ever read..............no man alive can show proof that prayer works..and who the heck came up with - PRAYER EXPERMENTING??? WTF??? that is absolutely stupid.....
If God saw how man was using prayers as an experiment..he would say screw that clap trap im not going to prove them right for the sheer fun of it..............faith is meant to be personal NOT experimented with and exploited...catch a flying grip...if Prayer could be proved to be true...every last tome dick and harry would all get on their knees and chant like hell...all making prayers that sound more like wishes..then Gods is treated like some gennie in a bottle....I mean fooook sake it just gets worse
Faith = personal experience and no half wit can disprove prayer doesnt work..nor can they prove it does...thats why its called FAITH.......and you ask - has anyone heard of the great prayer experiment...well obviously NOT, probably because it is in amongst the rest of the biggest load of cobbler experiments locked away!!!
Experimental praying..wtf will they think of next!!!!!!!!!!!
no matter how many times I read this, I still think these people are pretty low parents to let their kid be sick to the point of death. just sad this kinda crap happens really.
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Mar 29 2008, 11:34 PM)
Perhapps?? PA I know I was right....God DID hear their prayer..God saved the girl from going through that again..for God has thought, if I save her, let her live, they will do it again and so on....the best way to deal with this is to save the girl..take her to a much better place and teach them a valuable lesson in life...that lesson is this............
I created you...I gave you an ability...I gave each person different abilities...many of whice are those that have the ability to TREAT the sick and SAVE lives....each to their own...if you ignore what I have created for your OWN benefit, thne you will pay
Taking their daughter away from them saved her...........lets hope if any of the other kids get sick that maybe they will not be as quick to neglect their needs...
Praying is good when you at least do some of the work....you have to at least show God how willing you are...IE take you kid to a doctor..and then PRAY like mad that the treatment works...leaving the REST to God.....................that PA is the truth as I see it
millions of christians love their faith but they also KNOW that their family are important...they wouldnt neglect a sick child....thank goodness that not all christians do this...for if all christians did...my word...christianity would have died out long before now...for when you think back to the time when IE -Penicillin..wasn't discovered untill 1928...and it is known as a life saver...but before that..so many died of what we now call the flu virus...so if every last christian believed that medical help was not needed...blimey I would hate to think how many christians would be left in todays world!!!
PA..you are most likely dating some young woman and I have a feeling that maybe in the next few odd years you will be ready to settle down and be a father...and I have a feeling that, once you do and you see how your life totally changed (I neve used to belie a persons lif changed from having kids but soon got a shock).....you will not only love your kid..but the sec they take ill, you will jump to seek the best help you can..and pray it works.......just guessing lol but thats the vibe I pick up from you...id say there is no way you would neglect your own child..you would use both prayer and seek the propper care required
I created you...I gave you an ability...I gave each person different abilities...many of whice are those that have the ability to TREAT the sick and SAVE lives....each to their own...if you ignore what I have created for your OWN benefit, thne you will pay
Taking their daughter away from them saved her...........lets hope if any of the other kids get sick that maybe they will not be as quick to neglect their needs...
Praying is good when you at least do some of the work....you have to at least show God how willing you are...IE take you kid to a doctor..and then PRAY like mad that the treatment works...leaving the REST to God.....................that PA is the truth as I see it
millions of christians love their faith but they also KNOW that their family are important...they wouldnt neglect a sick child....thank goodness that not all christians do this...for if all christians did...my word...christianity would have died out long before now...for when you think back to the time when IE -Penicillin..wasn't discovered untill 1928...and it is known as a life saver...but before that..so many died of what we now call the flu virus...so if every last christian believed that medical help was not needed...blimey I would hate to think how many christians would be left in todays world!!!
PA..you are most likely dating some young woman and I have a feeling that maybe in the next few odd years you will be ready to settle down and be a father...and I have a feeling that, once you do and you see how your life totally changed (I neve used to belie a persons lif changed from having kids but soon got a shock).....you will not only love your kid..but the sec they take ill, you will jump to seek the best help you can..and pray it works.......just guessing lol but thats the vibe I pick up from you...id say there is no way you would neglect your own child..you would use both prayer and seek the propper care required
I guess that means that praying is dangerous since you never get what you really want, and sometimes even an outcome you don't like.
On a serious note: I strongly disagree with the idea that god took the girl so she could get out of the situation she was in. The first reason being I don't believe in the Christian God, and the second being that even if I did, I would think of this idea as being silly. You HAVE to assume something like this, or that he answered in a mysterious way, in order to hold to the belief that god always answers prayers.
QUOTE (ShaunZero @ Mar 30 2008, 03:05 PM)
I guess that means that praying is dangerous since you never get what you really want, and sometimes even an outcome you don't like.
On a serious note: I strongly disagree with the idea that god took the girl so she should get out of the situation she was in. The first reason being I don't believe in the Christian God, and the second being that even if I did, I would think of this idea as being silly. .
On a serious note: I strongly disagree with the idea that god took the girl so she should get out of the situation she was in. The first reason being I don't believe in the Christian God, and the second being that even if I did, I would think of this idea as being silly. .
Well if you are atheist (and I said IF)..then its obvious you will strongly disagree lol and I can understand that....im not going to sit here and try and convince you of anything different...what's the point?
I guess out of anger I said yes god answered their prayer and saved her..toook her away from those two wacko's once and for all...because to be honest, if I were God, id most likely do the same..and have her where no one will let her suffer again....
QUOTE
You HAVE to assume something like this, or that he answered in a mysterious way, in order to hold to the belief that god always answers prayers
LMAO Shaun you have me cofused with a christian LOL...I dont believe God answers everyone prayer...it may say that in the bible, but I dont BELIEVE in the bible...I believe God answers prayers if he see's fit....but I can say that not all prayer do get answered..and christians know this too, they have too much pride to admit it, so yea, they will say - he works in mysterious ways <--its a cop out or a way around it all to (like you say) hold on to their faith
I know God doesnt answer every last prayer...I dont know WHY...all I know is..he answers when he see's fit..kinna like when you ask your mom for something she wont always say YES!!!
Well, I'm talking about those who DO believe that. And by the way, it's a bit hard not to group you with the Christians since you do indeed believe in the Christian God. Some of what you believe is taken from the bible, so you believe in some parts of what the bible says, but not others. Makes it a bit hard to figure out what you accept or don't accept, so forgive me if I make a wrong assumption about what you believe in.
I think they invoked the religious bagde to try to avoid prosecution. I think if you let your child die of something treatable, religoius tolerance isn't a good enough excuse..you should rot in jail. You can pray to your god just as easily in a jail cell....
QUOTE (darkmoonlady @ Mar 30 2008, 07:04 PM)
I think they invoked the religious bagde to try to avoid prosecution. I think if you let your child die of something treatable, religoius tolerance isn't a good enough excuse..you should rot in jail. You can pray to your god just as easily in a jail cell....
Exactly, and if they believe in God and that all prayers get answered in one way or another, then they can pray to get out of jail! And if they don't get out of jail, well hey! Your God must want you in jail!
QUOTE (Cimber @ Mar 28 2008, 12:39 AM)
I thought this was interesting
WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.
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An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.
She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.
The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.
She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.
"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."
Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.
The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.
Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.
"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."
The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.
"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."
The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.
But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.
She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.
"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."
The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.
Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."
By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_...HdmpFaJ0fgDW7oF
WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.
ADVERTISEMENT
An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.
She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.
The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.
She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.
"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."
Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.
The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.
Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.
"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."
The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.
"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."
The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.
But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.
She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.
"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."
The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.
Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."
By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_...HdmpFaJ0fgDW7oF
Well I bet if they had another kid they wouldn't try that again.
QUOTE (Doug1o29 @ Mar 28 2008, 01:22 PM)
This is still under investigation. Contrary to the parents' own statement, what they did could be judged criminal; in which case, they ARE criminals. One does not have the right to impose one's religious beliefs on others, even one's own children.
They're about to get a real education in the working of the US court system. Just fighting the charges could bankrupt them, whether they're found guilty or innocent. If they ask for a jury trial and lose, they'll probably get the maximum or something close to it (Juries tend to impose harsher sentences.).
Where was their god while their daughter was dying? These cases make a powerful argument for atheism.
Doug
They're about to get a real education in the working of the US court system. Just fighting the charges could bankrupt them, whether they're found guilty or innocent. If they ask for a jury trial and lose, they'll probably get the maximum or something close to it (Juries tend to impose harsher sentences.).
Where was their god while their daughter was dying? These cases make a powerful argument for atheism.
Doug
Most of this is the same old "outrage" expressed by non-religious types, so I'll really stick to the bolded statement.
It is indeed the duty and responsibility to raise your kids with the same morality YOU as a parent posses. That's a given, and it counts religion. Can you imagine opening that can of worms? Only being able to teach your children STATE APPROVED morals? I don't think so.
All that aside, I agree, they did wrong. There is no case for Atheism here, rather, a case for common sense. NEVER should common sense be foregone for the sake of religion. But, neither should the government legislate ANYONES morality or religion.
This is unfortunately all too common, that is, people on both sides of this issue going totally too far. I hate being so moderate sometimes.
On the one hand, I'll be DAMNED if I'll allow the government to tell me what morales to teach my child.
On the other hand, what these parents did was SO neglectful, it could well be considered criminal.
QUOTE (ShaunZero @ Mar 31 2008, 01:01 AM)
Makes it a bit hard to figure out what you accept or don't accept, so forgive me if I make a wrong assumption about what you believe in.
I dont accept the christian God and no I didnt pinch the idea of a god from their bible...so I would appreciate it ..if you cared NOT to tell me what and where i got my own faith from...FYI...after i broke away from the RC..I was practically an atheist for quite some time, as i didnt believe God existed...............it was only long aftwerwards I found out with personal experience that there is in fact a spirital being bigger than us..I felt it and hence my faith was born...but the God I follow is NOT the same idea of the CHRISTIAN God..not is my God remotely like the Christian God in any way....so again dont tell me what my faith is, or where you wish to ASSUME where I got it............for you know fine well im against the faith of the christian church, and I have a sneaky susspision you are now saying this (after knowing me for so long) because you saw Leo try and pull the same sad little stunt in another thread....interesting shaun....I never tried to tell you what oyu follow or why you follow your own beliefs...im not that freaking cockey
What gets me is when I said this......see below
QUOTE
im not going to sit here and try and convince you of anything different...what's the point?
was my way of telling you who am I to tell you or convince you of anything about faith? <--yet you read this and dictate to me about my faith...brass neck you have there!!QUOTE
I make a wrong assumption about what you believe in.
Making assumptions about me and what I believe in..is about all you can be capable of Shaun...thats it, you cant know the full truth behind my faith ..if I never told you before...untill now..as you always knew I was not christian and didnt believe in their bible...
So please spare me the dictating assumptions and stop trying to tell me what and why I have a faith...no one likes a know it all...especially when that know it all can't be ar*sed to at least ask questions in the 1st place
QUOTE
so you believe in some parts of what the bible says
PARTS?? what?? I dont believe a single PART of their bible...I used to say - I believe they got it right when they claim there is a God..but that dont mean I believe in their God or any of their bible...not a single part..or as you put it PARTS!!! meaning more than one Part
hey since you like to judge and dictate..hows about I do it with you?? or should I lower myself?? Should I be as ignorant??
So according to you...anyone that broke away from a faith and was atheist..but then years later found another faith that contain A God of some sort...this MUST mean it came from the bible??? WTF?? so those that follow a God or Gods before this bible...got their idea from??? _________ <--incert holy book here.................so where do you suppose the people that wrote the christian bible got their ideas from?? after all it is said they took it all from various texts ..IE greek Gods ect...
QUOTE (eqgumby @ Mar 30 2008, 06:19 PM)
Most of this is the same old "outrage" expressed by non-religious types, so I'll really stick to the bolded statement.
It is indeed the duty and responsibility to raise your kids with the same morality YOU as a parent posses. That's a given, and it counts religion. Can you imagine opening that can of worms? Only being able to teach your children STATE APPROVED morals? I don't think so.
All that aside, I agree, they did wrong. There is no case for Atheism here, rather, a case for common sense. NEVER should common sense be foregone for the sake of religion. But, neither should the government legislate ANYONES morality or religion.
This is unfortunately all too common, that is, people on both sides of this issue going totally too far. I hate being so moderate sometimes.
On the one hand, I'll be DAMNED if I'll allow the government to tell me what morales to teach my child.
On the other hand, what these parents did was SO neglectful, it could well be considered criminal.
It is indeed the duty and responsibility to raise your kids with the same morality YOU as a parent posses. That's a given, and it counts religion. Can you imagine opening that can of worms? Only being able to teach your children STATE APPROVED morals? I don't think so.
All that aside, I agree, they did wrong. There is no case for Atheism here, rather, a case for common sense. NEVER should common sense be foregone for the sake of religion. But, neither should the government legislate ANYONES morality or religion.
This is unfortunately all too common, that is, people on both sides of this issue going totally too far. I hate being so moderate sometimes.
On the one hand, I'll be DAMNED if I'll allow the government to tell me what morales to teach my child.
On the other hand, what these parents did was SO neglectful, it could well be considered criminal.
I rather agree with you eggy... it's what I was making a poor attempt to point out earlier in the thread hoping people would use their brain. You said it much better and clearer than I did. I agree.
I'm sorry for this family. The article clearly states that their other children are well cared for and healthy. This was unfortunate, it really was. They will likely end up paying the price of losing their child and a long and painful court battle. I can't say if they were right or wrong in what they did. I would never try that method of healing, but I know people who do--my own parents to a certain extent. I'm marginally sympathetic believe it or not.
QUOTE (AtheistGod @ Mar 31 2008, 03:10 AM)
Well I bet if they had another kid they wouldn't try that again.
I wouldn't hold my breath, they think they did the right thing if you read the article.
And that was added to my list of 'Why religion is bad' I believe in god, and I believe he makes things possible for us to work with, doctors are gifts from god in a way, they heal, faith doesnt heal, only your mind, and various other things do.
QUOTE
I dont accept the christian God and no I didnt pinch the idea of a god from their bible...so I would appreciate it ..if you cared NOT to tell me what and where i got my own faith from...FYI...
If you believe in Jesus then it's case closed as it's the only place the idea of Jesus comes from. And this is why we can't ever get along. You freak out too fast. I wasn't trying to tell you what you DEFINITLEY believe, I just assumed from all of your other posts. If I got it wrong, all you have to do is correct me once and tell me what you believe, not go crazy. The last time I saw you speak about God, I could have sworn you mentioned Jesus. And if you did, and believe in Jesus, then like I said, wether you like it or not, the idea of Jesus first came from the bible.
QUOTE
So according to you...anyone that broke away from a faith and was atheist..but then years later found another faith that contain A God of some sort...this MUST mean it came from the bible???
Let me do like you... WTF?!?!?!?!? OMG!?!?!?!?!? NO!!!!..... dot dot dot dot dot times 10.... I didn't know you were an Atheist, or that your beliefs had changed so much, so NO!!! dot dot, that is not what I said!
QUOTE (ShaunZero @ Mar 31 2008, 07:28 AM)
If you believe in Jesus then it's case closed as it's the only place the idea of Jesus comes from. And this is why we can't ever get along. You freak out too fast. I wasn't trying to tell you what you DEFINITLEY believe, I just assumed from all of your other posts. If I got it wrong, all you have to do is correct me once and tell me what you believe, not go crazy. The last time I saw you speak about God, I could have sworn you mentioned Jesus. And if you did, and believe in Jesus, then like I said, wether you like it or not, the idea of Jesus first came from the bible.
Let me do like you... WTF?!?!?!?!? OMG!?!?!?!?!? NO!!!!..... dot dot dot dot dot times 10.... I didn't know you were an Atheist, or that your beliefs had changed so much, so NO!!! dot dot, that is not what I said!
Let me do like you... WTF?!?!?!?!? OMG!?!?!?!?!? NO!!!!..... dot dot dot dot dot times 10.... I didn't know you were an Atheist, or that your beliefs had changed so much, so NO!!! dot dot, that is not what I said!
You forgot the caps and the bold text.
QUOTE (MissMelsWell @ Mar 31 2008, 03:30 AM)
I rather agree with you eggy... it's what I was making a poor attempt to point out earlier in the thread hoping people would use their brain. You said it much better and clearer than I did. I agree.
I'm sorry for this family. The article clearly states that their other children are well cared for and healthy. This was unfortunate, it really was. They will likely end up paying the price of losing their child and a long and painful court battle. I can't say if they were right or wrong in what they did. I would never try that method of healing, but I know people who do--my own parents to a certain extent. I'm marginally sympathetic believe it or not.
I'm sorry for this family. The article clearly states that their other children are well cared for and healthy. This was unfortunate, it really was. They will likely end up paying the price of losing their child and a long and painful court battle. I can't say if they were right or wrong in what they did. I would never try that method of healing, but I know people who do--my own parents to a certain extent. I'm marginally sympathetic believe it or not.
Thanks Mel. It's a shame that people want to lay the blame solely on religion here, when it's not that simple. What really freaks me out though is the implication that the government should somehow regulate belief.
Let's face it, there are a lot of beliefs out there, many inspired by religion, that are harmful. The same goes for cultural beliefs. The line gets crossed all the time.
Female circumcision.
Male circumcision.
"Honor" killings.
Arranged marriages.
State sponsored racism.
Colonialism.
Why do we do these things? Is it all because of the Bible? Of course not.
What if parents of a child pursued holistic healing? Herbal medicines? Dietary means of curing an ailment?
What do you do if parents of a child feed him sugar pops, hot-pockets, and deep-fried burritos, and the kid is a fat-ass? Do you prosecute the parents and put them in jail because they have bad dietary habits, and are passing them on to their kids?
What about people who fast for religious reasons, and don't allow their 10 year old to eat from sun-up to sundown? Is that abuse? Should "The State" take away their kids?
How about parents that don't immunize their kids? Should the parents of the un-immunized child that passed measles to my baby, resulting in his near death, be arrested for harm to their child as well as mine? Or is it their "right" to not immunize their child, because they believe vaccinations are potentially harmful, or their religion states immunizations are a no-no?
I don't expect answers, just for people to think outside their state imposed box.
QUOTE (eqgumby @ Mar 30 2008, 06:19 PM)
Most of this is the same old "outrage" expressed by non-religious types, so I'll really stick to the bolded statement.
It is indeed the duty and responsibility to raise your kids with the same morality YOU as a parent posses. That's a given, and it counts religion. Can you imagine opening that can of worms? Only being able to teach your children STATE APPROVED morals? I don't think so.
All that aside, I agree, they did wrong. There is no case for Atheism here, rather, a case for common sense. NEVER should common sense be foregone for the sake of religion. But, neither should the government legislate ANYONES morality or religion.
This is unfortunately all too common, that is, people on both sides of this issue going totally too far. I hate being so moderate sometimes.
On the one hand, I'll be DAMNED if I'll allow the government to tell me what morales to teach my child.
On the other hand, what these parents did was SO neglectful, it could well be considered criminal.
It is indeed the duty and responsibility to raise your kids with the same morality YOU as a parent posses. That's a given, and it counts religion. Can you imagine opening that can of worms? Only being able to teach your children STATE APPROVED morals? I don't think so.
All that aside, I agree, they did wrong. There is no case for Atheism here, rather, a case for common sense. NEVER should common sense be foregone for the sake of religion. But, neither should the government legislate ANYONES morality or religion.
This is unfortunately all too common, that is, people on both sides of this issue going totally too far. I hate being so moderate sometimes.
On the one hand, I'll be DAMNED if I'll allow the government to tell me what morales to teach my child.
On the other hand, what these parents did was SO neglectful, it could well be considered criminal.
Well, that would depend on how you see 'morals" .Morals the effects of them can be seen in output, that gives a guage as to how well they work. its always a question of what works and what doesn't..
perhaps as guides what we can do is drop expectations that any moral or any information we are sharing about who we are and what we choose will have any impact on anything or anyone else at all.. we can start by not requiring these results...... put thought into who you are ahead of time.. there are many alternatives besides imposing ideas on others...
we place limits on others when we insist they should beleive in things that are not valid or no longer working......
you do not have to believe anything to take a look at it......we present the world as if we have to choose what to believe and that there is a 'right' beleif or else...
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Mar 30 2008, 12:43 AM)
Nahh I just posted it for a laugh!!!....OF COURSE I believe in it...........why shouldn't I?? I believe their prayers where in fact answered and the girl was saved...why is this so hard for anyone to take in??
WAKEY WAKEY RISE AND SHINE!!!...I gave the reason as to WHY I believe in it
WAKEY WAKEY RISE AND SHINE!!!...I gave the reason as to WHY I believe in it
The girl died.
The parent's neglected to do anything tangible to help her.
She had a condition that was fatal if not treated, although easily treated by doctors.
Because of the parents' neglect, she died. WAKEY WAKEY RISE AND BAKEY!!! She died because her diabetes was left untreated.
"God" did not "save" her. (That is opinion, yet you speak of this as the ultimate truth.)
I conclude this from what we can see happened. Not some fantasy speculation to tie up all the loose ends and make everything fit neatly folded into your perception of "the way things are." Maybe I'm not right... I don't really know for sure. But for the sake of pretending I know the answer for everything, here is a little collage of your comments outlining my (ultimate truth) opinion.
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Mar 30 2008, 04:14 AM)
what in the blue hell are you doing throwing out the IMPOSSIBLE crap I have ever read..
..You are wrong! WAKE UP!! What you suggested QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Mar 30 2008, 04:14 AM)
is absolutely stupid......catch a flying grip...wtf will they think of next!!!!!!!!!!!
I didn't read the entire thread, because I know how volatile it can get. But, I found this today, thought it might be of interest to you guys.
Parents who let girl die lose other kids...
Parents who let girl die lose other kids...
QUOTE (SunDogDayze @ Mar 31 2008, 07:54 PM)
I didn't read the entire thread, because I know how volatile it can get. But, I found this today, thought it might be of interest to you guys.
Parents who let girl die lose other kids...
Parents who let girl die lose other kids...
Good I'm glad the idiots lost their kids. They clearly cannot handle the responsibility of it. "There is no intent. They didn't want their child to die. They thought what they were doing was the right thing," he said. "They believed up to the time she stopped breathing she was going to get better. They just thought it was a spiritual attack. They believed if they prayed enough she would get through it." Clearly the parents are morons. Regardless if you are religious she needed medicine.
the parents are Idiots just plain idiots.
QUOTE (crtbud @ Mar 31 2008, 12:37 PM)
The girl died.
The parent's neglected to do anything tangible to help her.
She had a condition that was fatal if not treated, although easily treated by doctors.
Because of the parents' neglect, she died. WAKEY WAKEY RISE AND BAKEY!!! She died because her diabetes was left untreated.
"God" did not "save" her. (That is opinion, yet you speak of this as the ultimate truth.)
I conclude this from what we can see happened. Not some fantasy speculation to tie up all the loose ends and make everything fit neatly folded into your perception of "the way things are." Maybe I'm not right... I don't really know for sure. But for the sake of pretending I know the answer for everything, here is a little collage of your comments outlining my (ultimate truth) opinion.
..You are wrong! WAKE UP!! What you suggested
The parent's neglected to do anything tangible to help her.
She had a condition that was fatal if not treated, although easily treated by doctors.
Because of the parents' neglect, she died. WAKEY WAKEY RISE AND BAKEY!!! She died because her diabetes was left untreated.
"God" did not "save" her. (That is opinion, yet you speak of this as the ultimate truth.)
I conclude this from what we can see happened. Not some fantasy speculation to tie up all the loose ends and make everything fit neatly folded into your perception of "the way things are." Maybe I'm not right... I don't really know for sure. But for the sake of pretending I know the answer for everything, here is a little collage of your comments outlining my (ultimate truth) opinion.
..You are wrong! WAKE UP!! What you suggested
it seems this is a line of reasoning common in religion it prevents one from being accountable, theory 's are a reason for why things happen , but it is not an excuse for not getting medical attention for something that was easily treated....
How can one ever self correct or learn anything and grow if they are not willing to accept responsiblity for their choices ????
.....the arguement isn't if there is adiety or not and speculating spinning tales about what one thinks... the facts are who knows but what we do know is that many are suggesting that we have some sort of standard for guidng a child that is fair for the child with parents that are willing to research and be open to providing a childhood that is safe and child centered... these parents 'mistakenly' put faith above common sense.....
diabetes can be dealt with by managing the diet,keeping a handle on the blood sugar level.....( one can just about learn it about it from watching commercials here in the US)....... a little bit of knowledge could of helped this girl and her parents....
Good point sheri. We must acknowledge the fact that with the minds that we have (arguably god given) we need to make proactive choices that follow common sense. Sitting in a room hoping to become enormously successful won't result in success. Going out and actively doing things to guide that path are what get you there. Whether there is a god or not, your actions will harbor your outcome. Prayers are wishful thinking (in my opinion) that can play into the mindset of staying focused on your goal and, if you actively seek it, will target your success. Same can be said for taking care of a child and though I am nowhere near parenthood myself, I can't imagine being anything other than proactive about my child's good health. Prayer or any other method grounded in faith should be supplemental to those actions.
QUOTE (crtbud @ Mar 31 2008, 01:47 PM)
Good point sheri. We must acknowledge the fact that with the minds that we have (arguably god given) we need to make proactive choices that follow common sense. Sitting in a room hoping to become enormously successful won't result in success. Going out and actively doing things to guide that path are what get you there. Whether there is a god or not, your actions will harbor your outcome. Prayers are wishful thinking (in my opinion) that can play into the mindset of staying focused on your goal and, if you actively seek it, will target your success. Same can be said for taking care of a child and though I am nowhere near parenthood myself, I can't imagine being anything other than proactive about my child's good health. Prayer or any other method grounded in faith should be supplemental to those actions.
I agree hon, praying is the equivalent of doing nothing in my book, there is saying and a good one for the 'god beleivers' two thirds of god is go....
we are the beleif in action, a child can get a real clear picture of what we are being, by who we are being( not by what we are saying) .. no words are needed....actaully a kid can spot a hypocrite faster than most adults.....
being a guide brings with it the willingness to step outside of ones 'box' ...few in reality are doing this few are examining thier values for actual effectivenss many more are repeating that which they have been told no questions asked, no need to self correct( especailly in systems that are claiming flawlessness there in lies the issue) so we see the same old problems over and over.........Ignorance is not a excuse, yes its a reason but its not gonna fly when guiding children and preparing the future....too many are willing to say "I know " instead of a bit closer to the truth we don't know, and humanity's out put sure backs that up....so lets explore and see what we find out together. let's try not to harm anyone in the process...
i bet they pray when their car breaks down too
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