I just posted this in another thread but wanted to put it out there for all:

I have changed my mind, I don't think Atlantis existed at all. After studying all the information I have over the last 48 hours with very little sleep, I think I have cracked the story of Atlantis and what Plato is talking about. I have never heard or read a theory such as what I have come up with so I'd love anyones opinion.

The story Plato is telling is a story about Solon himself!

Solon is the main character, the person who he is using as a metaphor for what he is trying to put across via what Socrates has asked of them. (His own idea but put forth by 'Socrates')

I was studying Solon and came to this conclusion. It just jumped out at me.

Solon was an Athenian statesman and poet and lived from 638BC - 558BC.

So from records we can read on his time as a statesman of Athens and his poetry and this is where I found the clues. Look at this Wiki entry anyone who is interested and really read it keeping in mind Pluto's dialogues. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solon

The main clues to me were:

His life is in sync with Socrates dialogue on what he wants to be told.
Plato mentions of the enemy coming 'unprovoked' - this was a key word for me, I felt in Critias telling it had a real meaning, the enemy of the first tyrants and others who blamed Solon for the state of affairs.

According to Solon the poet, Solon the reformer attempted to use his extraordinary powers to establish a peaceful settlement between the country's rival factions:

Before them both I held my shield of might
And let not either touch the other's right.[16]
His attempts evidently were misunderstood:

Formerly they boasted of me vainly; with averted eyes
Now they look askance upon me; friends no more but enemies

Solon handed over all authority and left for 10 years.

"Within 4 years of Solon's departure, the old social rifts re-appeared, but with some new complications. There were irregularities in the new governmental procedures, elected officials sometimes refused to stand down from their posts and sometimes important posts were left vacant. Some people began to blame Solon for their troubles. [23] Eventually one of Solon's relatives, Peisistratos ended the factionalism by force, instituting a new and wholly unconstitutional dictatorship. Solon accused Athenians of stupidity and cowardice for allowing this to happen." - Wiki

So we see that Solon was noble and did good deeds, it was written that the Athenians were also this, by Plato, and also Solon's ancestor was the First King of Athens, but the Athenians (Atlanteans) did not like the new reforms and seemingly 'unprovoked' according to how Solon had thought according to his poetry, made an attack on him, whereby he leaves for 10 years - this is the period Plato talks of where we are 'alive but asleep' and realise what makes us spring into action and fulfil our true path. Which was for Solon: (after he came back)

Solon pretended to go crazy. A rumor spread that Solon had made up some crazy poems and was now totally out of his mind. Then one day he appeared in the marketplace and stood in the speaker's place. All of the Athenians swarmed to hear the crazy man speak. Still keeping up the act of insanity, Solon sang a song of over a hundred verses about Salamis. The poem was so well done that the people forgave him for violating the new law. Before long, the law was repealed, and the Athenians prosecuted the war with greater vigor than ever before. Solon, who meanwhile had recovered, was chosen to be the general to lead them in it. (I fogot to get the website I've quoted this part from, but will and add in)

That part is what Solon does which is what he has found after 'sleeping' - his true form.


Let's look at this: In his poems, Solon portrays Athens as being under threat from the unrestrained greed and arrogance of its citizens.[74] Even the earth (Gaia), the mighty mother of the gods, had been enslaved.[75] The visible symbol of this perversion of the natural and social order was a boundary marker called a horos, a wooden or stone pillar indicating that a farmer was in debt or under contractual obligation to someone else, either a noble patron or a creditor. - There is Plato's story: the citizens are Atlanteans and Solon is Athens. Athens wants more - as does Atlantis also having "already Libya and part of Europe", the symbol of being in debt to a noble or patron was a pillar! that farm inside the pillar was in debt or trying to be controlled by the Atlanteans (the richest citizens whom the farmer owed - the greedy and arrogant ones).

In Timaeus it says: Soc. I should like, before proceeding further, to tell you how I feel about the State which we have described. I might compare myself to a person who, on beholding beautiful animals either created by the painter's art, or, better still, alive but at rest, is seized with a desire of seeing them in motion or engaged in some struggle or conflict to which their forms appear suited; this is my feeling about the State which we have been describing. There are conflicts which all cities undergo, and I should like to hear some one tell of our own city carrying on a struggle against her neighbours, and how she went out to war in a becoming manner, and when at war showed by the greatness of her actions and the magnanimity of her words in dealing with other cities a result worthy of her training and education.
Then: I have told you briefly, Socrates, what the aged Critias heard from Solon and related to us. And when you were speaking yesterday about your city and citizens, the tale which I have just been repeating to you came into my mind, and I remarked with astonishment how, by some mysterious coincidence, you agreed in almost every particular with the narrative of Solon; but I did not like to speak at the moment. For a long time had elapsed, and I had forgotten too much; I thought that I must first of all run over the narrative in my own mind, and then I would speak.

That to me is saying that Plato could see a similarity between what he felt he needed to say according to how Socrates (in the narrative) wants in the story and the story of Solon which having been a great pro-democracy statesman and been "the first champion of the peoples" and: "Solon has acquired a place in history and in folklore through his efforts to legislate against political, economic and moral decline in archaic Athens. Some of his reforms failed in the short term, yet he is often credited with having laid the foundations for Athenian democracy."

Mention of extended families and clans in Solon's time compares with what Socrates says is an ideal state.

Wiki says: "Depending on how we interpret the historical facts known to us, Solon's constitutional reforms were either a radical anticipation of democratic government, or they merely provided a plutocratic flavour to a stubbornly aristocratic regime" - a mention of how Solon's reforms were in line with what Pluto taught!

I could go on forever here but I need to think some more or I'm babbling, I will structure the rest of my theory properly and make another post.

Anyone?

You have obviousley done your research on the matter however, it does sort of contradict Plato's writings. The Atlantean downfall came after a failed invasion of Athens itself, if as you put forward the Athenians were in reality Atlanteans then it sort of falls apart. Its good to see the research done on the matter instead of writing whatever came from the top of your head and with a few tweaks here and there, you could have a very good personal theory on your hands

Thanks for that support! I do like your post, I wish to be questioned.
Yes, what you point out - The Atlantean downfall (Athens citizens) came after a failed invasion of Athens itself - that's right, the citizens had a failed invasion of themselves, they attacked Solon (Athens) but realised after 4 years it was a terrible decision so was a failure.....make sense? They failed to create a winning situation so failed themselves.


being: Athens citizens and tyrants and people against Solon - Atlanteans
and: Solon being Athens - a democratic society and what he stood up for, his laws and ideals, similar to Plato's.

yeah i see what you mean, so the whole 'reality' of Atlantis from this viewpoint was that it was a neighboring to Athens. Yeah this may fit with your theory about the tyrannical Athenian statesman especially Cylon (not the shiny guys) who led an unsuccessful attempt at seizing control of Athens in 632, still it may well be that this was just the domestic turmoil of Athens at the time ? . Hmm im gonna get reading

yes, the tyrants play an important part in Solon's life - I'm glad it has piqued your interest.

Yes, Atlantis was neighboring to Athens in the form of tyrants, enemies and disgruntled citizens who tried to overthrow or get rid of Solon.

Domestic turmoil is the main theme, in a way.

Good thread, and good reading. You are on the way to formulating your thoughts on the subject. Read about the Thirty Tyrants, you may well have come across them already....one of their prominent leaders will be well known to you. Plato was deeply affected by Socrates' trial, and execution; and the reasons surrounding the case. IMO Plato doesn't seem to like the state Athens has become, Athens was in danger of becoming like Atlantis, his story is a warning. The fact that it comes from the mouth of Critias is interesting, he may have believed that he was the 'best man for the job' that Socrates always talked about, who should be 'the captain of the ship that is Athens' so to spk...critias was a bad pupil. I think Plato associated democracy with greed unchecked.

We are slowly getting at something here. The affinity of the Athenians for the fable was not because they did not like reality, telling stories with real persons could be very dangerous... sometimes deadly.

Thanks, I have come across the Thirty Tyrants but there seems to be some confusion on which Critias it was - I believe Plato doesn't like what Athens had become either and saw a parallel to how Solon had seen it.

yes thats true; on both counts...Thucydides agrees with their sentiments.

Absolutely - they were written as being the good guys, that's the irony of it too, a hidden message from Plato, to be the good guys in his tale, it's almost funny.
Plato also mentions how hard it is to talk about real people and when you read that part in Timaeus, you can see how he would insert the 2 names (Athens and Atlantis) to represent real people in a way that was easier for people to vividly imagine as well as a way to get his point across without offending anyone.

There was a censure law passed that stopped people bringing up the events of recent history...for fear of rekindling old emnities.

Ahem, right here we go. After the reforms of Athens Solon travelled abroad, amongst his travels was Egypt. Whilst at Egypt Solon visited Sais. Whilst here he received an account from the priests at Neiths Temple on the history of Atlantis. Therefore Plato was not the only scholar to write about Atlantis, Solon wrote out this history as a poem and then Plato later made references to these in Timaios and Critias. Like i said one hell of a personal theory you have

... almost forgot about that one too....

Yes, Solon wrote down the history of past events he had learnt of there as well as the events of his own time also doing that through his poetry, he is suppose to be a distant relative of Plato's and Plato mentions that (as Critias) his great grandfather had the copy of it, maybe Solon was Plato's great grandfather and Plato himself was the one who had seen them as a little boy. Funny enough, the dates for Solon's life are 638BC to 558 BC, the age of 90, which is the age at which (Critias) says his great grandfather told him the story. If you got picky, Solon would have been 124 odd years old when Plato was 10, but it's not overly relevant to the whole theory.

I don't have answers to everything but if Plato changed much about the whole story so that it was fiction based on history, any amount of the whole story could be made up, so on a whole I am looking for similarities between parts of Plato's dialogue that corresponds with what we know of Solon, his poetry and his lifetime as a statesman that has Plutonic ideals and who's life story Plato remembers, is startingly similar to what Socrates is asking of him. That being said, I don't think Socrates was actually there saying that as in dialogue first person, but Plato was trying to write as his tutor and respected friend wanted from him, a study of political civil strife seen through the own self, (the state) and how we find our forms. Basically, a war with oneself.

I like Thucydides, he was the first true scientific thinker who did not involve Gods into his theories. When you take the Gods away from Plato's story it has to be looked at in a completely different context, which is what I've done myself, now that I think of it.....

here's my thought on the matter, i incoorperated Plato's writings into the context that was most logical in my opinion. Gods hold no interest for me either.

There are a lot of views about Atlantis throughout history, from the original writings of Plato, to the fantastic visions of Edgar Cayce. However i am more inclined to believe Plato in this case, he describes Atlantis as a major Naval power of its day that was nigh on impossible to defeat. The Atlantean Empire conquered many nations including the North African coast from Libya to Eqypt, an attempted invasion of Athens resulted in the downfall of Atlantis. As Atlantis 'Sank in a single day and night of misfortune'. Plato's next quote is perhaps one of the most interesting;

'For all that we have here, lying within the mouth of which we speak, is evidently a haven having a narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent.'

The Narrow entrance, as many familiar to the Mediterranean may point out as the Straight of Gibraltar, leading to a 'real ocean' = the Atlantic, and the 'Continent' surrounding this ocean ? perhaps Atlantis was never an island after all, but a distant continental power based on the western coast of Africa or more controversially the Eastern American Coast, that managed to make extraordinary advances in Oceanography and the cataclysm that 'sunk/wiped out' this empire ? a tidal wave of terrifying size and power.

Despite looking at Plato's writings over and over again, it is still nagging at the back of my mind that Plato wrote about this Super-Empire almost 9000 years after its destruction, even if this is only meant to be a piece of fiction then it is a fantastic piece at that. Hopefully in 1000 years time no one will hold Tolkien's visions of Middle-earth as a true account of human history

Yes, in fact, if you go back to my original first post, it tells how when Solon came back:
Still keeping up the act of insanity, Solon sang a song of over a hundred verses about Salamis. The poem was so well done that the people forgave him for violating the new law.

Just a new law, put in place I would suspect of the government in charge after Solon left.

Yes, it was nagging me, there seemed no possibility of a culture capable of too much back then, unless you want to get into the ancient technology stuff, so I think that date is a fiction part. I do think that Solon may have been told by the priests of a destruction of some kind of a place. Possibly Thera, possibly Azores...now whether there actually lives this super Naval power is another thing. I am still working out some details of the crossfire between what's fact and fantasy.
Also if we look at another part I mentioned we can see that a farm in debt had a pillar at the front of it, to denote that that whole area was in debt - The Pillars of Hercules was that pillar, the war was with the people inside the pillars and outside the pillars - the farmers who owed everything to the rich, basically the rich and the poor, or the nobles and the workers....the Pillars of Hercules is just another metaphor. More of Plato's signature style, allegory. There is no island outside the Pillars of Hercules in that case....this all takes a bit of a stetch of the brain I know, but it does seem to fit together.
The part you quoted was what I originally worked with in my quest to find a place Atlantis, I came up with the Azores and there is a map available by Christian O'Brien showing a very good comparison to a larger island at that time. I do subcribe to ancient sea travel and am open to the thought of sea travel in ancient times from Africa and South America myself, many of my posts are in these topics, but for this exercise, I am looking at it as if Atlantis is an allegory, as that is what I was always told by the skeptics when I did think Atlantis was a real place, now I've got beyond that, I think this theory is the answer.

If Azores or another island continent destruction story was told to Solon and Plato knew of it as possibly a legend of the time or something, it makes even more sense.

No i dont support the idea of ancient technology myself, Edgar Cayce's 'visions' are in my opinion completely fantastical and the origins of the idea that Atlanteans had flying machines and power emanating crystals. But moreover i am in no position to assert that any of my thoughts are the answer, its an easy trap to fall into to and one that people should steer clear from without hard evidence.

Yes, believe me, I have been in every nook and cranny looking for a real Atlantis for a long time now, always a believer really, until just before I concluded my conclusions..like I said, it just jumped out at me. Because I've been through every other possible scenario this is how I came to think this is the one.

But the notions of the poor owing everything to the rich ended with Solon's Moral, Economic and Sexual Reforms long before Plato had even been born 424.

Yes but it was in Solon's time and that is the historical part - it is comparable with a war as I mentioned - I see Solon and his policies as being the good Athens in Plato's tale - so the story is really from Solons time, it's the story of Solon and his time put into Plato's time since Plato sees it as a similar situation to what is going on around him politically.

Sorry thats not the one i meant. After the Thirty Tyrants there was another attempted coup in 403BC (i think) to settle the matter a general amnesty was proclaimed and no one could be accused for anything done in the preceding upheavals. but you are right in picking up similar elements relevant to Solon's time.

It is for these reasons that Socrates was tried for corruption of the youth....it was these youths whom he corrupted that became the Thirty Tyrants....but because of the law some personal enemies could not accuse him directly of instigating the unrest, they apparently did mention in the trial that he had not openly opposed their rule and remained in the city, whilst men who opposed it and could manage to leave, left or died. His dialogues with these youths often centred around the ideal state and its makeup; they admired the Cretan and Spartan models in opposition to the base democracy of Athens. These youths and their teacher are mocked in Aristophanes who notes their fetish for small spartan capes and cudgels....and their habit of intimidation etc.

Solon is a vehicle for the story, its emphasis lays in the politics of plato's day. The Delian League....or the Athenian Empire as it should rightly be called is what plato equates with Atlantis gone wrong, Its formation for him, and the Athenian oppression of its members was the crime of the Atlanteans. Sparta is like the early honorable Athens who defeated them. For him Athens had deserved the misfortune that he had witnessed.

WAAS,

I believe I predicted you would come to this conclusion, didn't I?

Welcome to the dark side.



You can only make this statement because Plato says it in the Timaeus.

IOW, you truly have no idea whether Solon ever even heard the Atlantis tale at all at any time in his life.

There exists no such tale in Ancient Egypt, as far as we know.

Harte

Well no, no one does. That fact is lost to the ages, its all theory and at no point am i trying to say its truth, i, like yourself, am just commenting on this particular theory and expressing some of my own thoughts.

We have to remember that the Egyptians considered themselves the highest any human conglomeration had ever achieved. They would have told stories about gods living in precious kingdoms on the other side of the sea...but never about humans that were superior to them.

Yeah, perfect example 'Foreigners in Egyptian texts were described in derogatory terms; e.g., 'wretched Asiatics' (Semites), 'vile Kush**es' (Nubians), and 'Ionian dogs' (Greeks).' (wikipedia)

Yet somehow we are supposed to believe that Solon heard a tale of how great his forbears were in defeating the mighty Atlanteans, all from an Egyptian society that would never have recorded such a tale, even if it were true.

Harte

I don't know who's trying to make you believe that, im just theorizing.

Not you. People that claim Solon actually heard this tale from the Egyptians.

H.

I must admit, i did dive a bit head first into this, after reading Timaeus a few times through there is actually no evidence Solon himself heard this, its just mentioned that Solon passed the tale down and with the Chinese whispers effect who knows ? Atlantis may have been an extremely annoying ant colony that ticked off Plato bringing its destruction in a terrible day as Plato poured boiling water over the lot sinking it forever creating an impassable muddy shoal to any insect yep (no sarcasm is meant or directed at anyone )

lol - yes, obviously my first thought when making this thread....lol....you win (again)...

So, what do you think?
I admit I found no evidence of what you speak, (meaning in above posts to Rector B about a real Atlantis) when put into my context, as you suggested, to look at somebody being Athens and Atlantis as is usually mentioned when interpreting Plato's work of allegory and not looking at it historically, it makes sense that there is no real Atlantis. In a nutshell, I think Plato was philosophising about what Socrates had imagined and expected of him maybe - so puts it into a fictional narrative but of course in a guise of the state of Athens but also a state of body and personal growth reaching a form of oneself comparable to the state of Athens and it;s parallels to it. In searching for a way to put forth this philosophy as Socrates would like, which I believe is generally what Socrates says in the dialogues but is not saying there and then as I don't think the narratives actually took place in real life, so the story isn't really a story of Solon telling Critias as a boy about a powerful ancient people coming into the Mediterranean, so there is no Atlantis to look for.....as you know.

So that leaves us with comprehending what Plato is talking about, he writes that he recalls a story that sounds like what Socrates wnts to hear but has to remember it correctly before writing it down....to me that is Plato including in his story a part about himself recalling the legendary Solon's time and the affairs that are now on a parallel to affairs in Athens of Plato time and how also the story would fulfil Socrates other requirement of being comparable to the perfect form of find true personal growth to be the best you can be, what was actually expected of the people according to Socrates, to be as highly educated and excell at what you are good at after having a period of 'sleeping'.

So when I look at the history of Solon and his character, deeds, events and poems, I see that they all tie in perfectly, including as you may have noticed earlier, I even think the Pillars of Hercules are mentioned only in reference to the binding of ordinary citizens to the greedy, arrogant wealthy - the debt of farms. Now I am not exactly sure what the situation was in Athens politically yet to complelety do that comparison, but seems to me Plato was not a happy chappy about the state of the government and it's people. I'm sure Solon as general in the Salami War has something to do with something, but I haven't really finished reading that part yet. It's a warning to the Athenians to smarten up so that it doesn't go the way of Solon's time - and Solon's life story is representing the whole story itself. That's why Solon is the one telling the original story, it all fits.

Politics at this time in Athens was almost non existent, wealth was power and corruption was everywhere. You need to add an 's' to Salami wars although the dried sausage is nice the island Salamis would be more of a prize to fight for

Plato was not a historian, he was a philosopher and a very clever one at that, that's why his work still enthrals people to this day, I read those narratives so many times, and when you look at it in the way of my theory, you can see just how clever he was, there is no way these comparisons are coincidental, they are all in there and it is the most logical answer, as far as I can see. Plato wouldn't put in his stories some mumbo jumbo about a lost city or place, he also states it is a true story, which it is. The clues are in his narrative everywhere.

lol, yes Salamis War, silly me.

This is spectacular wereallsuckers! Very good reading.

In a discussion of utopian societies, Plato claims that Egyptian priests told Solon about Atlantis. Plato was not describing a real place any more than his allegory of the cave describes a real cave. The purpose of Atlantis is to express a moral message in a discussion of ideal societies, a favorite theme of his. The fact that nobody in Greece for 9,000 years had mentioned a battle between Athens and Atlantis should serve as a clue that Plato was not talking about a real place or battle.

The story is reminiscent of what Athens did against the Persians in the early 5th century BCE, but the battle with Atlantis allegedly took place in the 8th or 9th millennium BCE. It would not take much of a historical scholar to know that Athens in 9,000 BCE was either uninhabited or was occupied by very primitive people. This fact would not have concerned Plato's readers because they would have understood that he was not giving them an historical account of a real city. To assume, as many believers in Atlantis do, that there is a parallel between Homer's Iliad and Odyssey and Plato's Critias and Timaeus is simply absurd.



Regards,
Tom

Thanks Tom for that, I really appreciate your words, I think it's pretty good too! lol....

well what can I say, perhaps I was wrong beliving Thera was atlantis....

Damn! luckely I dint bet money on that theory

You did a really good work

Waas,

I think you may be onto something. But I also think you may be reading too much into it. Although, like you say, the story, the setting and the characterization of these two dialogues does seem to fit well with the parallel you're drawing.



This (above) from Mr. Bumbleroot is more my way of looking at it.


I agree that the standard argument about how "they thought Troy was a myth and they were wrong, so they could be wrong about Atlantis" simply doesn't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.

However, there is a parallel between the two tales that has been recognized by a couple of scholars. The Critias is an unfinished work. It used to be thought that it may have been finished but that we just don't have the rest. Now it is generally agreed upon that Plato never actually finished it. Why would this be?

Some scholars today surmise that Plato realized he was writing a tale that so closely resembled the Trojan War story that he was verging on plagiarism, and simply stopped writing for that reason!

So, technically, one could make the case that there is a parallel there, just not the one that those arguing for Atlantis are trying to make!



Lastly, when scholars talk about Thera or Helike "being" Atlantis, the discussion is usually about what Plato was using as a template for his tale of destruction, and not whether or not these sites were the actual Atlantis.

That is, how would Plato know anything at all about the sort of destruction on a grand scale that he talks about in Critias? Could the story of the destruction of Thera have been passed down over, what, 1300 years or so as a description of the terrible things that can happen to a culture and, if so, was this the "root" of Plato's description of the destruction of Atlantis?

The Egyptians likely knew about what happened to Crete (at least,) if not Thera, when Thera erupted. So it's even possible that there is a real connection with Solon here - he may have heard the story of the peoples the Egyptians referred to as from Keftiu (Crete.)

BTW, Helike was sucked into the ground during Plato's lifetime. Helike was not far from where Plato was born. It's possible he actually witnessed the destruction there. If not the actual act, then the aftermath.

So, in a way, Thera or Helike (or even both) could be considered as possible templates for the description of the destruction of Atlantis. IOW, you don't have to actually believe Atlantis existed to see that Thera or Helike (or both) may have played a part in Plato's tale.

So you may have been able to argue that you were the winner of that bet, had you made it.

Harte

OK, thanks for that. Although I'm not sure if much of your post is directed at me....Plato did finish Critias, he has made his point, look at the ending again, Zeuz is about to speak, Plato would never assume the role of Zeus and what Zeus would say, a person would not pretend to be a God nor speak words that a God would say, it makes sense, yes? It's ended like that imo intentionally so the people reading it could assume the ending themselves of what Zeus's opinion of the events would be....Plato could not speak as Zeus.

If anything, historical things mentioned imo include possibly a reference to Minoan/Mycenaean culture being they had palaces on tops of hills circled by walls, and lots of gold, we have all seen Agamemnons death mask. Phoenicans were a great naval culture, they built Carthage, were from Tyre and were in control in Nth Africa, there is many pre Plato cultures that Plato could have drawn inspiration from for his story's backgrounds, including disaters that he may have heard of, but I think this is all in relation to his story's main theme of what I have theorised and has nothing to do with true history as in being an account of something in particular since the Santorini/Thera eruption happened 1000 years before Plato's time, sure, the Egyptians would have had some knowledge of it possibly in that time through a story handed down, but even that story would have had to have got by 1000 years of retelling, assuming Plato was even talking about anything truly historical. In context, you have a historical event that happened around 1600BC, how much of that would be known at 350BC?? Not much imo and certainly not enough for Plato to have described it as such, even if some wise old Egyptian priest had indeed told Solon anything like this when he did visit there. I think it very unlikely Plato is mentioning an event that occured over 1200years before his time.

One side of me supports your theory, because it makes pretty good sense. The other doesn't because it would mean there's nothing to dig up

I hear ya Rector B! Makes it seem all so unexciting now doesn't it?

I don't think I'm reading too much into it - in fact - I have just done the complete opposite and by doing this have found what I believe to be Plato's real story - I have laid it back to the bare, bare foundations and found the actual 'true story' Plato has told us he is telling. It is not a story about what Solon told him, it is Solon's story. Basic, simple and it makes perfect sense.

I'm so glad you can see the parallel, keep thinking about it and it becomes clear as crystal.

Also do you and others think that Plato has just picked Solon out of his hat to base his story around? Not likely, he has used Solon as the story teller because of the reason it is Solon's life story.....

Another thing, my sig. used to be a quote by Aristotle remember: It takes an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it. Now we know Aristotle was of the belief that Atlantis and the story was not real. Was he making that quote in reference to Plato and/or himself being educated so did not accept the story and anyone else who could distinguish it were educated also? (Since Plato thought that education was top priority I would think this meant something.) I think this quote has a real bearing on Plato's work....since Aristotle was his student. (Freaky - I knew I used that quote for a reason!)

I believe this theory of mine is the real key to Platos trilogy of the whole Atlantis story. I know other scholars think that it is allegory and it was against a super might power etc.....but no where have I seen this put into context as Solon's story. I truly believe this is the answer that scholars and researchers have been searching for, not even in reference to Atlantis being real but even the confusion of what Plato is talking about in allegory. This is it. If this makes me truly educated, I have fulfilled my destiny...according to Plato....

Thanks Lux!

OK, now here's the clincher! are you ready?? The whole Atlantis trilogy is a RIDDLE.

Yes, I know some people already know that. I ask everyone, where is there any real evidence of either Socrates or Plato being so involved in Politics? The story may have an edge of politically statements but the way I see it, it is really about oneself and our own journey and how do we solve this question, the riddle.........that's why there is no answer at the end of Critias and Zeus would have spoke...Zeus has the answer to the riddle, our own answer. It was up to the reader to answer the riddle. To solve the riddle we need to through through a journey as spoken by the character of Socrates in the narrative. This is the parallel to Solon.

Let's consider this about Socrates (from Wiki):

According to Plato's Apology, Socrates' life as the "gadfly" of Athens began when his friend Chaerephon asked the oracle at Delphi if anyone was wiser than Socrates; the Oracle responded that none was wiser. Socrates believed that what the Oracle had said was a riddle, because he believed that he possessed no wisdom whatsoever. He proceeded to test the riddle through approaching men who were considered to be wise by the people of Athens such as statesmen, poets, and artisans in order to refute the pronouncement of the Oracle. Questioning them, Socrates came to the conclusion that while each man thought he knew a great deal and was very wise, they in fact knew very little and were not really wise at all. Socrates realized that the Oracle was correct in that while so-called wise men thought themselves wise and yet were not, he himself knew he was not wise at all which, paradoxically, made him the wiser one since he was the only person aware of his own ignorance.

Wow. I have bolded a few parts to make my points:
Socrates thinks the Oracle has told a riddle - why? Because Socrates thinks this way, it's his nature, that's why he is a philosopher...

He proceeds to test the riddle..... why? He is putting into practice exactly what Plato does and also mentions it during the part of the narrative when Solon is being told how they young Greeks think they know all but known nothing, they are children....read that part for more understanding.

The Oracle was correct: Socrates believes in this and uses it as a basis for his philosophy and with Plato being his student most interested and willing to learn this, the trilogy is Plato making a riddle (a homework exercise you could say, for Socrates).

Everyone thinks they know a great deal but know nothing....says it all really..........I thought myself quite ignorant but in doing so have indeed shown myself to be wise. I solved this riddle.

Socrates tells us what he wants in a perfect state (our own state - how we can be educated and be the best we can be) in Critias - and Plato asks us in a riddle (based on the parallel to Solon) how do we achieve these things?

a few things,

about the plato putting words into zeus' mouth thing, i think he would have been fine with it.
depends what you mean.

rather than personal politics....though that can never be excluded, its state politics that this story is primarily concerned with. How a state is governed and how it should behave to its neighbors and allies.

the reason for the allegory.....because of the sensitive nature of what he is saying re: state politics....he just saw Socrates killed for it.
because thats how the oracle always communicates.


This was part of Socrates' defense at his trial...i think he downplayed the political effect of his teachings with the 'gadfly' imagery.....


socrates is dead by this time.

have you read 'the Republic'?

I really don't see anything political in much I am reading except conjecture by later scholars.......the State is ourselves, how we should behave. It is not primarily concerned with any governed state.


Socrates died 399BC, Plato wrote Critias etc around 360BC, 40 years had passed, he didn\'t just see it. Socrates died because of his forthright manner in which he made people think about things, he died for truth. The Government was scared of his influence on the young minds, maybe someone would think too much and be a political problem.....Socrates encouraged people to think and possibly make protest.




Socrates trial is told of by Plato 40 odd years after the event and Plato has produced those words, he saw Socrates as that, pushing people into action and I think The Apology is anything but an apology, Plato mentions in it how Socrates is asking to be spared because there is no one else who can do what he does, spur people on...which people need to become a better person. He also starts with comments talking about how none of his accusers speak the truth, only he speaks the truth.
\'Socrates\' says: (In Apology) I will begin at the beginning, and ask what the accusation is which has given rise to this slander of me, and which has encouraged Meletus to proceed against me. What do the slanderers say? They shall be my prosecutors, and I will sum up their words in an affidavit. \"Socrates is an evil-doer, and a curious person, who searches into things under the earth and in heaven, and he makes the worse appear the better cause; and he teaches the aforesaid doctrines to others.\"

That is his crime.

We can see it again:
\"Why do I mention this? Because I am going to explain to you why I have such an evil name. When I heard the answer, I said to myself, What can the god mean? and what is the interpretation of this riddle? for I know that I have no wisdom, small or great. What can he mean when he says that I am the wisest of men? And yet he is a god and cannot lie; that would be against his nature. After a long consideration, I at last thought of a method of trying the question. I reflected that if I could only find a man wiser than myself, then I might go to the god with a refutation in my hand. I should say to him, \"Here is a man who is wiser than I am; but you said that I was the wisest.\" Accordingly I went to one who had the reputation of wisdom, and observed to him - his name I need not mention; he was a politician whom I selected for examination - and the result was as follows: When I began to talk with him, I could not help thinking that he was not really wise, although he was thought wise by many, and wiser still by himself; and I went and tried to explain to him that he thought himself wise, but was not really wise; and the consequence was that he hated me, and his enmity was shared by several who were present and heard me. So I left him, saying to myself, as I went away: Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good, I am better off than he is - for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows. I neither know nor think that I know. In this latter particular, then, I seem to have slightly the advantage of him. Then I went to another, who had still higher philosophical pretensions, and my conclusion was exactly the same. I made another enemy of him, and of many others besides him. \"

Socrates was hated because people thought he saw himself as very wise and they were not wise and when he spoke that, it offended many.
The whole of Socrates trial is a complete injustice - truth and justice, the underlying topic in it.

\'Such nonsense, Meletus, could only have been intended by you as a trial of me. You have put this into the indictment because you had nothing real of which to accuse me. \'
\' but the envy and detraction of the world, which has been the death of many good men, and will probably be the death of many more; there is no danger of my being the last of them.\'
\'For I do nothing but go about persuading you all, old and young alike, not to take thought for your persons and your properties, but first and chiefly to care about the greatest improvement of the soul. I tell you that virtue is not given by money, but that from virtue come money and every other good of man, public as well as private. This is my teaching, and if this is the doctrine which corrupts the youth, my influence is ruinous indeed. But if anyone says that this is not my teaching, he is speaking an untruth. Wherefore, O men of Athens, I say to you, do as Anytus bids or not as Anytus bids, and either acquit me or not; but whatever you do, know that I shall never alter my ways, not even if I have to die many times. \'
Socrates would rather die that stop his philosophising.
\'. For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me, who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am a sort of gadfly, given to the state by the God; and the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred into life. I am that gadfly which God has given the state and all day long and in all places am always fastening upon you, arousing and persuading and reproaching you. And as you will not easily find another like me, I would advise you to spare me. I dare say that you may feel irritated at being suddenly awakened when you are caught napping; and you may think that if you were to strike me dead, as Anytus advises, which you easily might, then you would sleep on for the remainder of your lives, unless God in his care of you gives you another gadfly. \'

See, the gadfly is a direct reference to what I mentioned in my other posts, about how \'napping or sleeping\' produces no worthy results of oneself, we need to be prodded into an awakening of ourselves by someone who will prod us to improve ourselves....

After condemnation:
\"And now, O men who have condemned me, I would fain prophesy to you; for I am about to die, and that is the hour in which men are gifted with prophetic power. And I prophesy to you who are my murderers, that immediately after my death punishment far heavier than you have inflicted on me will surely await you. Me you have killed because you wanted to escape the accuser, and not to give an account of your lives. But that will not be as you suppose: far otherwise. For I say that there will be more accusers of you than there are now; accusers whom hitherto I have restrained: and as they are younger they will be more severe with you, and you will be more offended at them. For if you think that by killing men you can avoid the accuser censuring your lives, you are mistaken; that is not a way of escape which is either possible or honorable; the easiest and noblest way is not to be crushing others, but to be improving yourselves. This is the prophecy which I utter before my departure, to the judges who have condemned me. \"

\"Still I have a favor to ask of them. When my sons are grown up, I would ask you, O my friends, to punish them; and I would have you trouble them, as I have troubled you, if they seem to care about riches, or anything, more than about virtue; or if they pretend to be something when they are really nothing, - then reprove them, as I have reproved you, for not caring about that for which they ought to care, and thinking that they are something when they are really nothing. And if you do this, I and my sons will have received justice at your hands.


The homework comment I made was in reference to Plato writing what Socrates taught in a way Socrates imagined...

I have read it once, but am going over it just now actually. Have you? I see, so far, nothing that concludes it to be about anything other than ourselves....our state.


+Not sure what happened to my post here with all the /'s in it....sorry for that.

I see what your'e saying about the Apology, but the charges against Socrates were trumped up. They wanted him for his association with critias, as i alluded to earlier...but because of the aforementioned law; got him for corruption of youth. They threw in the impeity one because it is an antisocial slur that would increase the prejudice against him, he defends himself well on this point.....but 'really' annoys the judges.

They would have got him off on a fine if he promised to stop teaching youths...they were terrified of another batch like the last one.

Perhaps the most reliable statement about why Socrates was executed comes from one of Aeschines' speeches, (Against Timarchus 173)




the gadfly thing; this is how Socrates saw himself, to many of the democratic magistrates who he annoyed and humiliated publicly he was perhaps a little more than this...these people also saw that his mindspawn had taken over the city and killed tens of thousands of people in a reign of terror...public opinion was a tad hostile to him after that.
He had made himself a lot of enemies, and committed further outrages against them like taking their sons under his wing, so to speak.

The gadfly is a bit of platonic idealism, Socrates was a little more dangerous than that.
Plato is obsessed with political structures.

Yes this is also my tough.
I belive (i wrote it in the altlantis in greenland topik) that solon got a similary story from Egypt, but he changed the myth replacing the egypt with hellas and the egyptians with the Atenians.
What story could Solon possibly have heard in Egypt? well the victory of Ramses III (1186 to 1155 B.C.) , against the so called people of the sea. Almust 1000y before Solon Egypt was invaded by a coalition of people. Those people (witch the origins is partially unknown) beofre the war against egypt they served the farao as mercenary, but they were known to be rutless warriors who usually invaded from the sea, killing and pillaging everything. I have also the impression that the people of the sea, were not invading armyes but entire people in the move.
What could have caused a similar scenario? perhaps the eruption of Thera? maybe maybe not because the first onslaught of the sea people came almust 400y after the eruption. But it is possible it was a indirect influence of the eruption (this wasent a small volcano like skt helen, Thera was the big dog) the minoic civilitation started to decline after the loss of Thera, the vaccum of power left lead many nations to anarchy (a similar scenario when the western roman empire fell) the climatic change forced people to move and become agressive.
Well to make a long story short, Solon readed about the people of the sea, and the end of Thera mixed the two and placed the location at Athen instead in Egypt. That's my hypothesis...

But WAAS has also a wery good point with her tesis.
One day the decided to invade