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Dragon Seeker
QUOTE (Raven Adams @ Apr 10 2008, 10:55 PM) *
i belllive!


Grounding and Personal Shielding

(Adapted From Traditional Sources)



If you are new to shielding begin this ritual at the first visible crescent of the waxing moon and repeat every day for one lunar cycle. This will "set" the shield firmly in your subconscious mind, which will then maintain the shield automatically. Afterwards, repeat the ritual each month at the full moon or whenever you feel the need. If desired, this ritual can be performed at solar zenith on the day of the first crescent, and on the day of the full moon.

Needed items:
1) Normal altar equipment
2) Protection or Dragon's blood oil
3) Protection or Dragon's blood incense


Perform Draconic Circle Casting

Invite Companion Dragons

Step 1: Light protection incense and sit comfortably, with back straight (do not strain). Anoint your "third eye" and your solar plexus chakra with the oil. Breathe deeply and evenly for 9 breaths. Feel yourself become more and more relaxed with each breath.


Step 2: Continue breathing easily while visualizing your spine as the trunk of a great willow. Feel your roots extend from the base of your spine deep into the Earth to anchor you firmly to the ground.

Step 3: With each inhale, begin to draw power and energy up from deep within the Earth. Feel it rising up through your spine, filling your entire body like sap rising up through a tree. Feel this energy penetrating every cell of your body, pulsing with every heartbeat.

Step 4: Now visualize great branches sprouting from the top of your head and sweeping gracefully back down to touch the Earth like a majestic willow, completely surrounding, shielding and protecting you. Feel the energy you are drawing up from the Earth spray up from the top of your head like a fountain, to flow down through your branches and back into the Earth, forming a protective sphere of power and energy around you. See yourself comfortably centered within this easily flowing, continuously circulating energy sphere.

Step 5: Reach out with your mind and take hold of this energy sphere. Slowly draw the sphere in around your body, concentrating it there like a second skin. Continue drawing up energy, layer upon layer like an onion, until it is concentrated to a thickness of about 12 inches. KNOW that nothing beneficial or harmful can penetrate this shield without your conscious consent.

Step 6: Once the shield has settled comfortably into place say:

I call to You, (name of deity), and to you, (name of Dragon), my companion(s)! I ask that You touch this shield with Your powers that they may mix with mine.

Visualize more energy coming from all around you to join with the energy making up the shield until it is so bright you cannot "see" through it. At some point there will be a "blinding" flash and the shield will become transparent to your "sight." The shield is now complete and fully functional. When this happens, say:

I thank you, my Lord/Lady, and I thank you, my Dragon friend(s) for your energy and assistance. I am now and forever protected from all external influences, emotions, thoughts, and energies that may come to do me harm. Nothing and no one can penetrate this protective shield without my direct conscious consent. So mote it be!


ok a few things, now i a skeptic rarely howver, where is one going to find such items and how can you be shure this has worked, unless you yourself have tried it
and to all of you thinking "omg he's being a skeptic" yes im being skeptic at this point but if you can prove me wrong i'll take back what i just said
veledran
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 10 2008, 07:20 PM) *
where is one going to find such items


Dragons blood items are made from the red resin of certain plants. It can be found at most New Age shops.
Spiritualacender
The dragon is not a dragon. Its a dead spirit from the constellation draco and is trying to use you for your knowledge on the creation of a soul. There is nothing you can do except use the name of GOD and say I rebuke you in the authority under your creator Adoni Elohim Yisrael and it will vanish. If not say Under the Authority of the 15 archangels I cast you back to your dimension and bind you from mine and all is done through GOD and it will leave. Call on St Michael and say your scared and please help also before sleeping think about Gabriel and how you need his presence and he will come during sleep and into the ethereal planes there till him of the dragon and to help make it banished.
veledran
QUOTE (Spiritualacender @ Apr 11 2008, 06:53 AM) *
The dragon is not a dragon. Its a dead spirit from the constellation draco and is trying to use you for your knowledge on the creation of a soul. There is nothing you can do except use the name of GOD and say I rebuke you in the authority under your creator Adoni Elohim Yisrael and it will vanish. If not say Under the Authority of the 15 archangels I cast you back to your dimension and bind you from mine and all is done through GOD and it will leave. Call on St Michael and say your scared and please help also before sleeping think about Gabriel and how you need his presence and he will come during sleep and into the ethereal planes there till him of the dragon and to help make it banished.


If there is such a creature visiting, I see no reason why not to attempt to learn from the creature. Just because it's not a angel of some sort doesn't mean it's evil.
Dragon Seeker
Well no matter, I am very shure that the dragon i had met was of a good intention, otherwise why would he just fly off instead of eliminating me?
Incorrigible1
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 11 2008, 09:35 AM) *
Well no matter, I am very shure that the dragon i had met was of a good intention, otherwise why would he just fly off instead of eliminating me?

Is your name Pete?
Dragon Seeker
and this applies to you how?
Incorrigible1
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 11 2008, 09:35 AM) *
Well no matter, I am very shure that the dragon i had met was of a good intention, otherwise why would he just fly off instead of eliminating me?

I asked if your name might happen to be Pete.

linked-image
Spiritualacender
QUOTE (veledran @ Apr 11 2008, 08:10 AM) *
If there is such a creature visiting, I see no reason why not to attempt to learn from the creature. Just because it's not a angel of some sort doesn't mean it's evil.



because your only suppose to learn knowledge from the spirit of GOD. Dragons do give much knowledge very very wise. But also cunning and trick you. They aren't evil or good never been physically therefore neither, They are against the fact you are human and despise you because of it. Hoping to trick you into letting them build trust then bammm!!! they will try and get that knowledge that is so far hid inside your mind. They want to have the knowledge of creation!! then GOD WILL BE DESTROYED and Lucifer wins.. Which looks he may and mainly all of our faults for not helping our creator and the essence that only LOVED us yet we spit back in GOD'S face.
667-Neighbor of the Beast
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 1 2008, 09:01 PM) *
To all those who beileve in the Dragonic Deities

please vist here and tell me about them for i too am a beilever because i was visted by The Father of Dragons, IO please let me know

have you had any experiances with dragons
have you ever been visted by a Dragonic Deity
do think the dragons live or they have gone from this world

let me know what you all think i thank you

Dragon Seeker,
Strong Beilever in the Dragons


The true mark of insanity. When something completely off the wall happens to them, they think that they are priveliged to something that no one else knows, instead of questioning the reality of the situation. It is a scientific fact that insane people never question their own sanity, they are completely convinced that they are sane, and everyone is not.
Nik Xues
the insane are the ones who seek truth.

the foolish are those who make it up

and the rest are too busy to care.
Dragon Seeker
QUOTE (667-Neighbor of the Beast @ Apr 11 2008, 10:03 PM) *
The true mark of insanity. When something completely off the wall happens to them, they think that they are priveliged to something that no one else knows, instead of questioning the reality of the situation. It is a scientific fact that insane people never question their own sanity, they are completely convinced that they are sane, and everyone is not.


Up yours im not insane and if i am


QUOTE (Nik Xues @ Apr 11 2008, 10:16 PM) *
the insane are the ones who seek truth.

the foolish are those who make it up

and the rest are too busy to care.



I agreee with Nix Xues
Undeadskeptic
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 12 2008, 02:35 AM) *
Well no matter, I am very shure that the dragon i had met was of a good intention, otherwise why would he just fly off instead of eliminating me?


Why kill a rose before it has a chance to flower, when it is so much more fun to crush the bud seconds before it opens?
667-Neighbor of the Beast
QUOTE (Nik Xues @ Apr 11 2008, 05:16 PM) *
the insane are the ones who seek truth.

the foolish are those who make it up

and the rest are too busy to care.


The insane do not seek the truth, they are convinced that they already know it, no matter how illogical.
The foolish are the ones who do not question things, and take whatever they hear or read at faith.
The rest are too busy to care.
667-Neighbor of the Beast
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 11 2008, 05:42 PM) *
Up yours im not insane and if i am


Thank you for proving my point. The insane are convinced that they are sane, and you are proving that point quite well.
However, the immature simply spout insults when they know they are proven wrong.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (Spiritualacender @ Apr 11 2008, 12:20 PM) *
because your only suppose to learn knowledge from the spirit of GOD. Dragons do give much knowledge very very wise. But also cunning and trick you. They aren't evil or good never been physically therefore neither, They are against the fact you are human and despise you because of it. Hoping to trick you into letting them build trust then bammm!!! they will try and get that knowledge that is so far hid inside your mind. They want to have the knowledge of creation!! then GOD WILL BE DESTROYED and Lucifer wins.. Which looks he may and mainly all of our faults for not helping our creator and the essence that only LOVED us yet we spit back in GOD'S face.

Oh, I really don't think God is the only one who can give us knowledge (even though I don't believe he exists). There are many ways to obtain knowledge. If I remember the story of Adam and Eve correctly, they weren't supposed to eat from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE, so God doesn't want us to know anything at all. Live in blissful ignorance forever.... Dragons also don't hate humans simply because we're human. They don't hate us at all, from what I've heard. I highly doubt they're out to ruin our relationship with any divine being. I've read Pagan ritual books about contacting dragons that live on different planes of existence (so this would mean they are as intangible as angels, demons, spirits, etc.) and apparently they will befriend humans if we treat them as equals. That's all theoretical, mind you, but so are your claims I'm assuming. And no, I don't spit in God's face, because I don't think he exists, so there's no face to spit at.
Dragon Seeker
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 12 2008, 03:47 AM) *
Oh, I really don't think God is the only one who can give us knowledge (even though I don't believe he exists). There are many ways to obtain knowledge. If I remember the story of Adam and Eve correctly, they weren't supposed to eat from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE, so God doesn't want us to know anything at all. Live in blissful ignorance forever.... Dragons also don't hate humans simply because we're human. They don't hate us at all, from what I've heard. I highly doubt they're out to ruin our relationship with any divine being. I've read Pagan ritual books about contacting dragons that live on different planes of existence (so this would mean they are as intangible as angels, demons, spirits, etc.) and apparently they will befriend humans if we treat them as equals. That's all theoretical, mind you, but so are your claims I'm assuming. And no, I don't spit in God's face, because I don't think he exists, so there's no face to spit at.



Perhaps you are correct, however the dragons that i have heard of wish revenge for their fallen kin, and if you encounter such i beast i advise you do what ever you must to escape, then again there are also the dragons that wish not vengense and wish to be left alsone and then there might just be the type that will go out of their way to save someone, though i've heard of very few of those...
Undeadskeptic
QUOTE (Nik Xues @ Apr 12 2008, 09:16 AM) *
the insane are the ones who seek truth.

the foolish are those who make it up

and the rest are too busy to care.


The insane are the ones that think they know the truth, when really they are chasing fantaises, unable to recognise the difference between reality, hope, and dreams.

The foolish are the ones who follow the insane like a pleasant little parasite, never realising the host whose blood they lap up so eagerly is deadly poison.

The rest see with they're eyes, hear with their ears and contain the world the foolish and the insane believe to be reality, inside their mind.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 11 2008, 09:47 PM) *
Oh, I really don't think God is the only one who can give us knowledge (even though I don't believe he exists). There are many ways to obtain knowledge. If I remember the story of Adam and Eve correctly, they weren't supposed to eat from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE, so God doesn't want us to know anything at all. Live in blissful ignorance forever.... Dragons also don't hate humans simply because we're human. They don't hate us at all, from what I've heard. I highly doubt they're out to ruin our relationship with any divine being. I've read Pagan ritual books about contacting dragons that live on different planes of existence (so this would mean they are as intangible as angels, demons, spirits, etc.) and apparently they will befriend humans if we treat them as equals. That's all theoretical, mind you, but so are your claims I'm assuming. And no, I don't spit in God's face, because I don't think he exists, so there's no face to spit at.


Interesting that you would believe in dragons but not 'god'. In the earliest of man's beliefs, 'dragons' were usually considered assistants, or 'sons' of the creator of the universe, with each one assigned to look after a different human culture. This is why virually every human culture has dragon legends. This is true even in the original Judaism before the Bible was changed to reflect Yahweh as the creator, when in fact, it clearly states he was originally just one of the many tribal dragon gods, who are also acknowledged as 'real'.

Spiritualacender has reveled in the posts, a very distorted view of the scriptures and strange ideas about 'dragons from outer space' that fully contradicts their role in the bible.



draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 12 2008, 12:34 AM) *
Perhaps you are correct, however the dragons that i have heard of wish revenge for their fallen kin, and if you encounter such i beast i advise you do what ever you must to escape, then again there are also the dragons that wish not vengense and wish to be left alsone and then there might just be the type that will go out of their way to save someone, though i've heard of very few of those...


Revenge their fallen kin? This smacks of more fantasy dragonslaying nonsense. If men actually did kill dragons, parts of them would have been found and the debate would be settled. The problem is that since no one has killed a dragon, it is just as hard to prove they exist, as it is to say a 'God' exists. Ironically though, there seems to be far more 'dragon' sightings, than 'god' sightings. For all the believers in the Biblical god Yahweh (who is actually not the true Biblical god, who is El), few realize he is actually a dragon, despite all of the accounts in that book of his great wings, spewing fire, demanding animals and human offerings, etc.

Over the centuries, as people forgot that their gods were originally dragons, it became popular to make up stories of human heroes killing what they believed was the mightiest living creature, the dragons.
Undeadskeptic
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 13 2008, 12:38 AM) *
Revenge their fallen kin? This smacks of more fantasy dragonslaying nonsense. If men actually did kill dragons, parts of them would have been found and the debate would be settled. The problem is that since no one has killed a dragon, it is just as hard to prove they exist, as it is to say a 'God' exists. Ironically though, there seems to be far more 'dragon' sightings, than 'god' sightings. For all the believers in the Biblical god Yahweh (who is actually not the true Biblical god, who is El), few realize he is actually a dragon, despite all of the accounts in that book of his great wings, spewing fire, demanding animals and human offerings, etc.

Over the centuries, as people forgot that their gods were originally dragons, it became popular to make up stories of human heroes killing what they believed was the mightiest living creature, the dragons.


Surely at least one would have been killed by man?
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Undeadskeptic @ Apr 12 2008, 07:51 AM) *
Surely at least one would have been killed by man?


realistically, the notion of a human killing a dragon without the aid of modern weaponry is as absurd as a mouse killing a cat.

I suppose if the dragon swallowed the person 'wrong' and it choked to death, but that is quite unlikely.

This is why the dragons depicted in the old dragonslaying scenes are so small, often the size of a goat. People in the Middle Ages, really did fight bears and boar with spears and knew how dagerous they were and could only realisically imagine a person killing a very small dragon, even if he were a Saint.

Ironically, people have progressively grown stupider and stupider in their fantasies of human capabilities, probably due to all of the comic book superhero nonsense in the popular culture today.

The Jurassic Park films, though not perfect, give a good idea of the helplessness of humans against giant reptilian carnivores, and these only have brains the size of an avacodo. But the speed and agility that these dinosaurs were given based on scientist advisors and real animal capabilities, and are a far cry from the slow, doddering T-Rexes of B-movies killed by spear wielding cavemen or jungle girls.

Now imagine the Spino from JPIII but with the ability to fly, and with human, or greater intelligence. It is no wonder our ancestors regarded such creatures as their gods.
Undeadskeptic
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 13 2008, 01:41 AM) *
realistically, the notion of a human killing a dragon without the aid of modern weaponry is as absurd as a mouse killing a cat.

I suppose if the dragon swallowed the person 'wrong' and it choked to death, but that is quite unlikely.

This is why the dragons depicted in the old dragonslaying scenes are so small, often the size of a goat. People in the Middle Ages, really did fight bears and boar with spears and knew how dagerous they were and could only realisically imagine a person killing a very small dragon, even if he were a Saint.

Ironically, people have progressively grown stupider and stupider in their fantasies of human capabilities, probably due to all of the comic book superhero nonsense in the popular culture today.

The Jurassic Park films, though not perfect, give a good idea of the helplessness of humans against giant reptilian carnivores, and these only have brains the size of an avacodo. But the speed and agility that these dinosaurs were given based on scientist advisors and real animal capabilities, and are a far cry from the slow, doddering T-Rexes of B-movies killed by spear wielding cavemen or jungle girls.

Now imagine the Spino from JPIII but with the ability to fly, and with human, or greater intelligence. It is no wonder our ancestors regarded such creatures as their gods.


Dragons are very powerful then. It is no wonder our ancestors treated such animals as gods.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Undeadskeptic @ Apr 12 2008, 08:46 AM) *
Dragons are very powerful then. It is no wonder our ancestors treated such animals as gods.

That seems to be the case. But not just strength, but also the ability to bring rain, laws, technology, etc. Perhaps bringing rain is an exaggeration. Being able to fly, and therefore see weather patterns before any man, a clever dragon could very easily make it seem to the humans that it could bring rain.
Undeadskeptic
Im still rather confused - from what species did they evolve?
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Undeadskeptic @ Apr 12 2008, 09:19 AM) *
Im still rather confused - from what species did they evolve?


They didn't necessarily evolve, they may have been 'modified' from an existing species by a creator entity.

Remember that new species of dinosaurs are discovered every year. We may not have even discovered 50 percent of the dinosaurs, pterosaurs and marine reptiles yet. We may indeed someday discover a creature that is the ancestor of the dragons.

While I am not saying it is a dragon prototype, if you gave the spinosaur wings, horne and spines on its back it would look remarkably like the modern concept of a mythic dragon. Spino has only been known since the early 20th century, and very few remains (except for teeth) have ever been found.
Undeadskeptic
Spinosaurus was probably largely a fish-eater though, and almost certainly not very intelligent. I simply don't see why intelligence would evolve in these animals.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Undeadskeptic @ Apr 12 2008, 09:42 AM) *
Spinosaurus was probably largely a fish-eater though, and almost certainly not very intelligent. I simply don't see why intelligence would evolve in these animals.


The earliest primates are small brained too. And I am not saying Spino is the dragon ancestor, I am merely showing that here is a dinosaur that is fairly dragon-like. (long muzzle, larger forearms than other theropods, longer neck than most large theropods, etc).

The notion that Spino only ate fish is just as preposterous as supposing crocodiles only ate fish. We know from fossils that they ate pterosaurs and dinos too. Based on the latest discovery, Spino is now the largest and undoubtedly most formidable of all carnivorous dinosaurs.

The whole premise of intelligent dragons is based on their being an 'unnatural' creature modified/developed by a creator entity. And this it compatible with many early beliefs.
Undeadskeptic
Is the creator deity, in your opinion, god?
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Undeadskeptic @ Apr 12 2008, 10:00 AM) *
Is the creator deity, in your opinion, god?


'God' is probably not the best word becasue it often equates to yahweh who is only a dragon. This is why a lot of particularly science-minded people say they are "Deists", acnowledging there is an intelligence behind the universe, and we are simply not just an accidental mixture of chemicals at the right temperature to create 'life'.

In the original scriptures, Yahweh and other dragons are merely assistants to the true creator called El.
Undeadskeptic
Could the higher power be extremely super-advanced beings from an ancient world, or diferent dimension?
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Undeadskeptic @ Apr 12 2008, 10:23 AM) *
Could the higher power be extremely super-advanced beings from an ancient world, or diferent dimension?

Many people think so, but this is just postponing the inevitable question, is the universe and the life in it merely lucky accidents, or is there some intelligence behind it? Many scientsts do think the latter, though this does not mean they accept organized religion.

Undeadskeptic
So what is ultimately the full function of dragons in this philosophical theory?
The Maharaja
In other words were the dragons employed purely to guide us in our early stages or do they have a continuing role to play
Also were ultimately do you think all of this careful manipulation is leading to? Whats the end game
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (The Maharaja @ Apr 12 2008, 02:17 PM) *
In other words were the dragons employed purely to guide us in our early stages or do they have a continuing role to play
Also were ultimately do you think all of this careful manipulation is leading to? Whats the end game


I think their only real role was to insure the survival of an intelligent life form (man), that might eventually contact other life forms on other planets. Dragons do figure in a number of 'apocolypse' scenarios in variious cultures, but realistically, they would not be much of a threat to us today, unless they have some extraordinary psychic abilities.

QUOTE (Undeadskeptic @ Apr 12 2008, 11:13 AM) *
So what is ultimately the full function of dragons in this philosophical theory?

see my last post above.
The Maharaja
Would you say that dragons were the basis for the angel myths then, or are they both seperate theologies
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (The Maharaja @ Apr 12 2008, 03:02 PM) *
Would you say that dragons were the basis for the angel myths then, or are they both seperate theologies


Some, yes. For example modern Christianity believes the Seraphim are swan winged humanoid angels, but originally the were fiery flying serpents (dragons). And these are the powerful 'destoryers' of the bible, not the man like angels..

The humanoid angels are simply men, perhaps long lived, like dragons, but no special powers. Jacob overpowers an angel, and angels were nearly sodomized in sodom. They are not spirits. The Bible says they must eat food like a normal human. None of them have wings, for they are often mistaken for regular men.

later the heavenly 'dragons' and humans were lumped together, and the angels were given the dragon's wings and power.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 12 2008, 01:13 PM) *
Some, yes. For example modern Christianity believes the Seraphim are swan winged humanoid angels, but originally the were fiery flying serpents (dragons). And these are the powerful 'destoryers' of the bible, not the man like angels..

The humanoid angels are simply men, perhaps long lived, like dragons, but no special powers. Jacob overpowers an angel, and angels were nearly sodomized in sodom. They are not spirits. The Bible says they must eat food like a normal human. None of them have wings, for they are often mistaken for regular men.

later the heavenly 'dragons' and humans were lumped together, and the angels were given the dragon's wings and power.

Wings were added to angels much much later in history. Artists added wings to paintings of angels so they could be easily distinguished from regular humans. That's all angels were: humanoid beings who assisted God with his workings. Angels did not originally have wings.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 12 2008, 03:28 PM) *
Wings were added to angels much much later in history. Artists added wings to paintings of angels so they could be easily distinguished from regular humans. That's all angels were: humanoid beings who assisted God with his workings. Angels did not originally have wings.


Winged heavenly creatures called seraphim are mentioned in Isaiah. And for centuries people knew these were dragons. You can see this verified in early Christian art. Later on the Church wanted to eliminate the dragons in Christianity becasuse of the dragons in pagan religions, so the seraphim dragons were changed into winged humanoid angels.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 12 2008, 01:43 PM) *
Winged heavenly creatures called seraphim are mentioned in Isaiah. And for centuries people knew these were dragons. You can see this verified in early Christian art. Later on the Church wanted to eliminate the dragons in Christianity becasuse of the dragons in pagan religions, so the seraphim dragons were changed into winged humanoid angels.

Source?
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 12 2008, 03:54 PM) *
Source?


As for the true meaning of the word Seraphim, see the online Jewish Encylcopedia. I have quoted it here many times before.

Since that article was written, ancient manuscripts have been found in which Drakon is substituted for Seraphim.

Church leaders like St. Thomas Aquinas acknowledges dragons as heavenly creatures, and dragons are described as heavenly creatures in much ancient Christian and Jewish scripture that supplements those books we call the Bible.

As for dragons being depicted as Seraphim, there are several still surviving Christian artworks, which will be included in my upcoming book. Many of these were destroyed however, so are no longer commonplace. Nearly every medieval church though does have the imagery of a great heavenly dragon swallowing up sinners on judgement day, based on the ancient scripture, The Apocolypse of Bauch.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 12 2008, 02:17 PM) *
As for the true meaning of the word Seraphim, see the online Jewish Encylcopedia. I have quoted it here many times before.

Since that article was written, ancient manuscripts have been found in which Drakon is substituted for Seraphim.

Church leaders like St. Thomas Aquinas acknowledges dragons as heavenly creatures, and dragons are described as heavenly creatures in much ancient Christian and Jewish scripture that supplements those books we call the Bible.

As for dragons being depicted as Seraphim, there are several still surviving Christian artworks, which will be included in my upcoming book. Many of these were destroyed however, so are no longer commonplace. Nearly every medieval church though does have the imagery of a great heavenly dragon swallowing up sinners on judgement day, based on the ancient scripture, The Apocolypse of Bauch.

That website clearly states on it's main page that the articles are unedited. "This online version contains the unedited contents of the original encyclopedia. " Anyone can go and claim a certain word means a certain thing without having any proof to back it up. It's like Wikipedia. Even the article itself doesn't provide any sources or verification for the claims of the word's origins. That's probably why it's only rated at 3.6... There isn't ANY verification for what the article says, so I'm going to treat it as such. If people read your book and figure that out they're going to attack you like dogs for not verifying your information. May I see a link to said ancient documents and artwork? And if the dragon is swallowing sinners, one would say that the dragon is the devil, not God. God was to throw the sinners into the lake of fire with Satan and the Beast. Therefore, I would have to argue that this dragon is Satan or the Beast, not God.
eight bits
When the website says "unedited," it means "unabridged." The Editorial Board of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia is given at (partial list, apparently):

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/litdir.jsp

The difficulties of the Seraphim article lie elsewhere.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...88&letter=S

First, as it notes, the seraphim are mentioned only once in the Old Testament, in Isaiah, and no physical description is given beyond having three pairs of wings.

An Egyptian and Babylonian possible origin of the word are given in addition to the third theory that they were serpents, borrowed from "the superstitious ideas of surrounding nations,"as the article puts it.

The authors of the article are a Professor of Rabbinical Literaure and Philosophy (E.G. Hirsch) and a Professor of Old Testament Exigesis (I. Benzinger).

A winged serpent does not a dragon make, except for those who see dragons in any cold blooded thing. Superstitious ideas are not eyewitness accounts of actual existence, much less physical evidence. Particular authors' century-old pet theory among three contenders is not establishment as fact.

And oh yes, Isaiah is having a vision.

Scholarly disagreement about the etymology continues to the present

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=seraph

Opinion isn't evidence in the first place, and the leading contemporary opinion doesn't even support the hypothesis (oh wait - every flaming thing is also a dragon).

DC doesn't care about any of this, m'Lady. It's all dragons, all the way down.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 12 2008, 04:34 PM) *
That website clearly states on it's main page that the articles are unedited. "This online version contains the unedited contents of the original encyclopedia. " Anyone can go and claim a certain word means a certain thing without having any proof to back it up. It's like Wikipedia. Even the article itself doesn't provide any sources or verification for the claims of the word's origins. That's probably why it's only rated at 3.6... There isn't ANY verification for what the article says, so I'm going to treat it as such. If people read your book and figure that out they're going to attack you like dogs for not verifying your information. May I see a link to said ancient documents and artwork? And if the dragon is swallowing sinners, one would say that the dragon is the devil, not God. God was to throw the sinners into the lake of fire with Satan and the Beast. Therefore, I would have to argue that this dragon is Satan or the Beast, not God.


The original encyclopedia was written by preimminent Hebrew scholars of the time. No serious scholar questions this. Even some well known Christian scholars confirm this, and the same word means a serpent dragon in egyptian.

In the Apocolypse of Baruch, Baruch is being shown heaven and asks the angel about a dragon he sees. The angel says that the dragon consumes those who live their lives wickedly. In some Bible covers and mosaics, God sets on a throne of coiled dragon tails, and the dragons are also swallowing sinners. They are also the seraphim. The wicked being devoured by a dragon or monster is also evident in Egyptian lore as you probably no.

some Christian art shows satan as a small dragon being swallowed by the larger dragon of punishment, so it does not represent satan.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (eight bits @ Apr 12 2008, 06:33 PM) *
When the website says "unedited," it means "unabridged." The Editorial Board of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia is given at (partial list, apparently):

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/litdir.jsp

The difficulties of the Seraphim article lie elsewhere.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...88&letter=S

First, as it notes, the seraphim are mentioned only once in the Old Testament, in Isaiah, and no physical description is given beyond having three pairs of wings.

An Egyptian and Babylonian possible origin of the word are given in addition to the third theory that they were serpents, borrowed from "the superstitious ideas of surrounding nations,"as the article puts it.

The authors of the article are a Professor of Rabbinical Literaure and Philosophy (E.G. Hirsch) and a Professor of Old Testament Exigesis (I. Benzinger).

A winged serpent does not a dragon make, except for those who see dragons in any cold blooded thing. Superstitious ideas are not eyewitness accounts of actual existence, much less physical evidence. Particular authors' century-old pet theory among three contenders is not establishment as fact.

And oh yes, Isaiah is having a vision.

Scholarly disagreement about the etymology continues to the present

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=seraph

Opinion isn't evidence in the first place, and the leading contemporary opinion doesn't even support the hypothesis (oh wait - every flaming thing is also a dragon).

DC doesn't care about any of this, m'Lady. It's all dragons, all the way down.


If you actually knew something about this subject, you would know that ancient Jewish manuscripts translated from the Hebrew to Greek used the word Drakon for Seraphim. This is actually fairly common knowledge, and even Christian scholars like Dr. Heiser support this view, and I have posted his article here beforel. There are also dragons which decorate the holiest piece of temple furniture after the ark, the temple menorah, and in all probabiliy the Cherubim on the ark were also winged serpents just as seen on similar Egyptian throne chairs.

The book of Enoch identifies the seraphim as 'serpents' as well. And other Jewish texts describe dragons as heavenly creatures, such as the Apocolypse of Baruch.

All of this makes the identification of the seraphim as winged reptilian entities quite conclusive. And it was the ancient Jews themselves that translated the word Seraphim to Drakon........ not I.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 12 2008, 04:34 PM) *
The original encyclopedia was written by preimminent Hebrew scholars of the time. No serious scholar questions this. Even some well known Christian scholars confirm this, and the same word means a serpent dragon in egyptian.

In the Apocolypse of Baruch, Baruch is being shown heaven and asks the angel about a dragon he sees. The angel says that the dragon consumes those who live their lives wickedly. In some Bible covers and mosaics, God sets on a throne of coiled dragon tails, and the dragons are also swallowing sinners. They are also the seraphim. The wicked being devoured by a dragon or monster is also evident in Egyptian lore as you probably no.

some Christian art shows satan as a small dragon being swallowed by the larger dragon of punishment, so it does not represent satan.

Yeah, Eight pretty much summed up everything I have to say. And I'm pretty sure Egyptian and Hebrew are different.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 12 2008, 06:43 PM) *
Yeah, Eight pretty much summed up everything I have to say. And I'm pretty sure Egyptian and Hebrew are different.


No, the pronounciation is the same. The Egyptian flying serpent is written "Serref" and its hieroglyph does look like a winged gryphon or dragon. The Hebrew one is called Seraph (singular). This can be no coincidence.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 12 2008, 04:42 PM) *
If you actually knew something about this subject, you would know that ancient Jewish manuscripts translated from the Hebrew to Greek used the word Drakon for Seraphim. This is actually fairly common knowledge, and even Christian scholars like Dr. Heiser support this view, and I have posted his article here beforel. There are also dragons which decorate the holiest piece of temple furniture after the ark, the temple menorah, and in all probabiliy the Cherubim on the ark were also winged serpents just as seen on similar Egyptian throne chairs.

The book of Enoch identifies the seraphim as 'serpents' as well. And other Jewish texts describe dragons as heavenly creatures, such as the Apocolypse of Baruch.

All of this makes the identification of the seraphim as winged reptilian entities quite conclusive. And it was the ancient Jews themselves that translated the word Seraphim to Drakon........ not I.

Um, no one has ever SEEN the ark, so I highly doubt we know what it's decorated with. And how do we know the drakon isn't a winged snake and not a dragon? Maybe they just revered the winged snake as a special symbol or power and that's why it's been translated that way. After all, all the translations are about SERPENTS and not dragons. I'm fairly certain those people knew the difference between snakes and dragons.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 12 2008, 04:46 PM) *
No, the pronounciation is the same. The Egyptian flying serpent is written "Serref" and its hieroglyph does look like a winged gryphon or dragon. The Hebrew one is called Seraph (singular). This can be no coincidence.

Gryphons and dragons aren't the same thing. How do we know the hieroglyphic wasn't a winged lion or just an eagle? Do you have a picture of the hieroglyph to prove your point?
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 12 2008, 06:46 PM) *
Um, no one has ever SEEN the ark, so I highly doubt we know what it's decorated with. And how do we know the drakon isn't a winged snake and not a dragon? Maybe they just revered the winged snake as a special symbol or power and that's why it's been translated that way. After all, all the translations are about SERPENTS and not dragons. I'm fairly certain those people knew the difference between snakes and dragons.


Much Jewish literature from around the time of Jesus was written in Greek and several books of scripture confirm that the Hebrew Drakon was not merely a snake with wings. In Isaish they are described with wings, hands and feet. In the Testament of Solomon, the Drakon has wings, and arms, which it uses to saw stone blocks for Solomon's temple. And the drakons on the Menorah also have thick bodies and clawed arms. They are not merely snakes. And common sense should dictate that the Jews would not depict these holy creatures as snakes since a snake deceived Eve.
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