It is only "easy" to someone who knows nothing about the ancient scriptures. THEY said they were winged serpentine creatures in the orginal hebrew. It was the PAGAN converts to christianity that turned the Hebrew dragons into winged human angels that imitated thier PAGAN God.

All the facts support what I am saying.

Even though dragons seem to have spread like wildfire in a few religions is that enough to make them real?

You make a very strong point in that statement

Since when were ancient scriptures fact? None of these ancient scriptures were ever proven as fact.

You also make a very good point

In a FEW religions? Are you kidding me? Virtually EVERY theology except some new age Star Trekkie nonsense has dragons.

And one of those religions recorded an evolutionary creation that parallels modern scientific theories to a remarkable degree.

And there are still sightings all over the world of giant dragonlike creatures in deep lakes where they can elude man.

And which religion would this be?

His language is skirting saying the religion, if he intended on saying it he would have said so in the previous post.

I realize that. My intention is clearly to point out how ridiculous his assertions are.

Agreed completely.

That has a lot of truth, but also is misleading. Many ancient religions had dragons in them as supernatural creatures, but they were third string after the Gods and usually semi-divine heros. Heracles kills the Hydra. Thor kills the Midgard Serpent. Fafnir is killed by Sigurd.

In many of those same religions there are monsterous dogs, birds and horses, but no one thinks they are divine, because they are regular animals. Many Eastern religons also have magical Ogres or the equivanent, but most people don't believe in them either, and very few think God must therefore be a magical Ogre.

Were do you guys get these legends?

Actually, in many of these religions, the dragons were portrayed as powerful as the gods, who ultimatly defeat them through trickery.

Thor kills the Midguard serpent with his hammer, even though the serpent is described as stronger, and the venomum pouring forth from the wound ultimatly kills Thor. The serpent was actually a son of Loki, a frost giant, and also a member of the Norse pantheon of gods.

The dragon Python was killed by Apollo, who later assumed ownership of Delphi and oracles within. Zeus needed he assistance of the other gods, as well as the thunderbolts supplied by Hepastus and the cyclopes, to defeat the dragon Typhon. Typhon was also a child of Gaia, as was Chronos (Zeus's father).

Marduk kills the serpent-dragon Tiamat, by goading her into swallowing him, and then unleashing all of the winds of the earth, gathered by the other gods. Tiamat was Marduk's grandmother, and mother of the gods, as well as being described as the creator of, and body of, the world.

So: no, early dragon myths did not dismiss these creatures as third-rate or insignificant. Often, they are described as having, or exceeding the gods in brute strength. many times they are described as related to, or elder to, the gods.

What I believe that we have here, with these gods and monsters tales, is a description of the replacement, and literal demonization of, the religious figures of an older culture by a conquering culture. In each case we have a pantheon of violent, conquering humanoid deities, which is appropriate as the cultures involved are violent, conquering cultures (Norse, Greek, Bablyonian). Most likely they conquered and subdued animist and agricultural societies, whose "monsters" were their gods.

PS: DragonSeeker, start here:
http://www.bartleby.com/bulfinch/
http://www.pantheon.org/
Also: look for mythology gems in your local library; libraries are far too underused these days anyway.

The thing to remember is that mythology is a highly subjective topic: people (including us ) have difficulty seeing past our preconceptions, to actually find what people actually believed back then. As you have noticed, nearly any time two people get on the boards, they can agree on the myth, but disagree completly on what it means, what people really thought, and it's origins.

Happy mything...

There are clues that nearly all the great gods were once dragons., save for the earliest records that state the major dragon gods were subservient to one creator, such as Anu in Sumeria and El in Western Asia. Zeus was a storm god, exactly like the dragons of both eastern and western asia, feathered serpents of thunderbirds of the americas, rainbow serpent, etc. These dragon gods fight other dragons, probably bloodless territoreial disputes, like modern reptiles, but would have been terrifying and remembered events among the worshipping humans. Sigurd doesn't kill a dragon, he kills a disguised Dwarf magician, and Hercules, Thor and Marduk are later inventions after the belief in dragon gods ws waning after the dragons broke direct human contact with their worshippers. With more confidence, humans invented human god-heroes, sometimes at the expense of their earlier dragon gods.

Something I am sure you have excellent proof of?
Forgive me DC, but I no longer think you're an adult who writes a book. I think you're a kid who's read too much Shadowrun fluff.

Prove me wrong, convince me that you're right. Just please stop spewing the "Omnipotent Dragon GOds" dung out. A few billion people on this Earth does NOT worship a dragon. They worship a bearded dude on a cloud, as that is what have been taught to them. Your claims that they worship a dragon is so far-fetched it hurts. If I spoke to the teachers at the theological school that neighbours my Uni about your theories I am quite sure they'd laugh me out of the building.

They probably have snakes as their basis too.

It doesn't matter if they think their god is an old dude on a cloud. The original theology proves he is a dragon or winged serpent if you like.

He cannot change his form just to please a new generation of worshippers who do not understand, or care for the earlier theology.

Understand however that the original theology does not say a dragon created anything, the dragons are just helpers to the real creator. As people who have read the manuscript have told me, my explation makes far more sensse and is compatible with science and worldwide human belief.

The ones who laugh would be the fools.

Okay. Now what about the symbolics of snake worship, that has been around some 15,000 years, possibly more.
This goes against your theory DC, as it is set in a time frame before the ancient sumerians.

But from what I have read God created human beings in his image, and we don't look like dragons to me, so that theory actually doesn't make much sense.

God is an Australopithecus?

In religious belief that's what the bible seems to say.

Who? Who? Who? Which manuscript?

The only conceivable person who would argue that dragon or serpent worship is a reality is Thulsa Doom.

I have ALWAYS said that the Creator is NOT a dragon. According to both Sumerian and Canannite theology the Creator had creatures described as dragons that presided over individual cultures or city states, and we see this all over the world.

I doubt he looked like a human, but is probably formless. By his own image, may mean man's ability to create things, like a God. The dragons, though wise, are little more than organic sentient machines trained to insure their tribe of humans would survive. They probably cannot create anything.

My manuscript.

And yes, serpent/dragon worship was a reality for centuries, and is clearly mentioned in the bible. The brazen serpent made by moses, was worshipped as an idol, and during the time the Hebrews were at their greatest power. Things didn't turn for the worse until AFTER the idol was broken. It almost seems as if Yahweh was not happy that his idol was broken.

Well in that case all my questions regarding the validity of said manuscript have been answered.

No it doesn't. Before Dragons 'domsticated' their humans and taught them agriculture and technology, humans still saw dragons, for they were always in the shadows protecting them from potential predators. Some dragons began to domesticate their humans centuries before the sumerians, but it is the sumerians who have recorded earliest that their gods were "Great Serpent-Dragons from Heaven". On the other hand, some cultures tended by dragons always remained stone age peoples due to enviromental factors, like the aborigines. This culture has the earliest evdience of "serpent-dragon" worship.

The extinction of mans most dangerous predators, as well as inferior, 'near-humans' like the Neanderthals, was caused by dragon intervention. This is why there were dragons in the first place, to insure the survival of the best strain of intelligent primate and eliminate the rest.

Let me ask you something; when you make a statement like this are you actually presenting it as literal fact or are you submitting it as a purely theoretical, speculative concept derived from mythology, religious texts and guesswork ?

guess work dc can never provide links nor actuall evidance

^ Doesn't matter in this sense, the question is he presenting it as fact or is he providing it as a suggestion.

but he makes staments about the bible and how the popoe owns a dragon yet he cant back them up

The question is aimed at DC - this is about how he intends the statements he makes, not what everyone else thinks of them.

Indeed! I am rather curious to know if DC is presenting his thoughts on this subject as facts, or is it purely speculative.

What? I feel you are taking ancient texts, etc. out of context. Anyway, I will counter your supposition.

The serpent is one of the oldest and most widespread mythological symbols. Considerable overlap exists in the symbolic values that serpents represent in various cultures. Some such overlap is due to the common historical ancestry of contemporary symbols. Much of the overlap, however, is traceable to the common biological characteristics of snakes.

In some instances, serpents serve as positive symbols with whom it is possible to identify or to sympathize; in other instances, serpents serve as negative symbols, representing opponents or antagonists of figures or principles with which it is possible to identify. Serpents also appear as ambivalent figures, neither wholly positive nor wholly negative in valence. An example of a serpent used as a positive symbol is Mucalinda, the king of snakes who shielded the Buddha from the elements as the Buddha sat in meditation.

Guardianship

This Cambodian statue, dated between 1150 and 1175 A.D., depicts the meditating Buddha being shielded by the naga Mucalinda.Serpents are represented as potent guardians of temples and other sacred spaces. This connection may be grounded in the observation that when threatened, some snakes (such as rattlesnakes or cobras) frequently hold and defend their ground, first resorting to threatening display and then fighting, rather than retreat. Thus, they are natural guardians of treasures or sacred sites which cannot easily be moved out of harm's way.

At Angkor in Cambodia, numerous stone sculptures present hooded multi-headed nagas as guardians of temples or other premises. A favorite motif of Angkorean sculptors from approximately the 12th century A.D. onward was that of the Buddha, sitting in the position of meditation, his weight supported by the coils of a multi-headed naga that also uses its flared hood to shield him from above. This motif recalls the story of the Buddha and the serpent king Mucalinda: as the Buddha sat beneath a tree engrossed in meditation, Mucalinda came up from the roots of the tree to shield the Buddha from a tempest that was just beginning to arise.

The Gadsden flag of the American Revolution depicts a rattlesnake coiled up and poised to strike. Below the image of the snake is the legend, "Don't tread on me." The snake symbolized the willingness of the colonists to fight for their rights and homeland.
Link - Serpent (Symbolism)

I noticed a lot of naga like imagery in wat's in Thailand and it had a definite cobra look to it.

Snake Worship

The worship of serpent deities is present in several old cultures, where snakes were seen as entities of strength and renewal.


Hindu mythology
Nagas form an important part of Hindu mythology. They play prominent roles in various legends:

Shesha (Adisesha, Sheshnaga, or the 1,000 headed snake) upholds the world on his many heads and is said to be used by Lord Vishnu to rest. Shesha also sheltered Lord Krishna from a thunderstorm during his birth.
Vasuki allowed himself to be coiled around Mount Mandara by the Devas and Asuras to churn the milky ocean creating the ambrosia of immortality.
Kaliya poisoned the Jamuna / Yamuna river where he lived. Krishna (Balakrishna / infant Krishna) subdued Kaliya by dancing on him and compelled him to leave the river.
Manasadevi is the queen of the snakes.
Ananta is the endless snake who circles the world.
Padmanabha (or Padmaka) is the guardian snake of the south.
Astika is half Brahmin and half naga.
Kulika
Lord Shiva also wears a snake around his neck

Nag panchami is an important Hindu festival associated with snake worship which takes place of the fifth day of Shravana. Snake idols are offered gifts of milk and incense to help the worshipper to gain knowledge, wealth, and fame.


Mesopotamians and Semites
Ancient Mesopotamians and Semites believed that snakes were immortal because they could infinitely shed their skin and appear forever youthful, appearing in a fresh guise every time.

Greek mythology
The Greeks believed in Gorgons and Medusa.
Link- Snake Worship

DC, none of these mythological beliefs, represent your theory that fire breathing dragons were worshipped as gods.

I love dragon lore and dragon art work, but i do not beleive on their existance or how they could ever exist. My favorite books about dragon lore are the old books by DARGON LANCE written by margaret wise etc. I also collect MAGIC THE GATHERING DRAGON art works cards. and the yaint cheap. my favorite dragon is TAROX BALDEWING, wonderfull artwork and has very big game effect, next would be SCOURGE OF KHER RIDGE. right now i got 48 magic the gathering dragon artwork cards, most of them are the old ones which are expensive too collectors, i can sell one for as low as $50. i dont have all of em but i got most of them. see magic the gathering for more info and mini story lines for these dragons.

I provided the source already. The story was that the Pope "kept" a dragon in the vatican, but rather than a "pet", if the story is true, I suspect the Pope was probably it's puppet, and it was the dragon who controlled things. Maybe its still there.

I would really like to see the source for this material.

I never said that honoring snakes constituted true dragon worship. But the high gods of Sumeria were proclaimed as Great Serpent Dragons of Heaven, that apparently could also change their form to humans.

The Semitic God Yaw was a dragon and he seems to have become Yahweh, who is still worshipped today, and has many dragon traits still contained in the Bible, like breathing fire, smoking nostrils, huge wings and a taste for lambs, calves, children and virgins. His highest assistants were winged serpents/dragons and the hebrews worsipped his winged serpent image made by Moses.

Zeus was worshipped and he supposedly changed into a dragon at times to rape women. I suspect he was originally a dragon god, because he controlled the weather like most dragon gods, and is described in dragon form at times.

I could never find the original source, but the story is found in the bilogist/Dragon Expert Peter Horgath's book. He was interviewed on one of the recent, big dragon specials.

Thank you for the info, Moro. As you and others have correctly pointed out, there is an widespread and ancient tradition of serpent worship, worldwide.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent.htm
And you, Grem, and others have correctly indicated that there is significant overlap of serpent and dragon myths. Grem's conclusion: that all dragon myth has it's origin in serpent myth, and yours, that these divine serpent myths have nothing to do with dragon myth, are only some of the conclusions one can come to.

I suspect that dragon myth helped expand and overlapped with serpent myth. In many cases, the art, and poetry of the ancients will often be highly stylized or symbolic. When examples of how varied fish (an everyday animal) are depicted and described, an overlap in description and depiction of dragons with other reptiles is not unreasonable. Further, mythical characteristics, such as great wisdom, magic, eternal life, adn guarding wealth indicate an overlap of these mythical characteristics of the creatures.

It is always difficult to understand what the ancients really thought, what was art, what was allegory, what was believed and why.

Also: while I do think that there is a compelling case to indicate that there was a world-wide belief in dragon myth, this is in no way proof of existance.

You just don't seem to get it DC, the word dragon did not exist in their culture. the word drakon did not come about
until much later. But, what the sumerians did do was more than likely ascribe something supernatural to a serpent, it
can be easily done, as other religions worshipped serpents, that were not huge, fire breathing, winged, lizards.

According to DC though, everything is a dragon. Everything.

its true, however though i cannot prove this thesis, i think that they did exsist but do not anymore

i don't know why i mean we still have yet to find it, but its like a gut instint that tells me "yes at one point in time they did exsist but not today"

and they do live today, if only in legands and myths they do still exsist, not physically however as i pointed out earlyer

He practically said a few pages ago that Zeus was a Dragon.

DC we know you were, or are, working on a book. Do you have any recommendations for further reading? Most everything I find on Amazon is fluff or D&D. We should at least educate ourselves so we all can know more on this subject.

You said it and i fully agree

Probably wind up explaining that Jesus is somehow a dragon. If he hasn't already.

And use some kind of "manuscript" as justification for his argument

Yep. Because centuries old documents that could have easily been rewritten or mistranslated are legit evidence.

But, enough with the DC bashing, I shalst await his response.