No contradiction, just a typo. Everything I have ever said here was true.

But didn't you say before that man couldn't kill a dragon?

Also legends don't count as fact, they are just stories. Those stories were brought up by people who saw something they couldn't identify, and made speculations of what it was, thus the legends begin.

I can find it now you've spelt it correctly.

Here is something i have found,

no its not an internet link but something found in a D&D based novel (yes DC im using D&D)



and another sample from the same book



the novel was written by the Author R.A. Salvatore and i find that little section hits fairly close to home with it, it also is very deep to me

what do you guys think?

Salvatore happens to be one of my favorite authors, and i agree with his sentiment entirely. But it is our nature to "unravel the mystery", it is who we are. We couldn't stop investigating any more than we could stop breathing. but there will ALWAYS be mysteries, in an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities. With that said, dragons, i suppose, could exist though it is very, very unlikely.

No, I never said men couldn't kill dragons. I said ancient and medieval men did not have the means to kill dragons, which is why, despite the acceptance of dragons as real creatures all over the world for thousands of years in virtually every human culture, we find no bones in human temples, churches, or trash pits. Who but an idiot could believe a humans with iron age technology could kill something like a 60 ft. spinosaurus that can fly and is not only equpped with the keen senses of a predator, but with great intelligence as well. Dragonslaying stories were invented, whether they were intentional farces or completely serious, because people believed dragons were the most dangerous creatures on our earth.

Some legends to seem to have more basis than what you give them. Sumerians credited that a "Great Dragon" built the fruit garden in Eridu, they did not credit themselves. Why? Because someone saw a big lizard there once? Unlikely.

The Hebrews who daily fed a dragon in a tent for 40 years didn't seem to be speculating. Billions of people still believe in this dragon.

You and DC are the lucky two. You got your names abbreviated without even asking.

Though a decent writer, I think Salvatore is greatly over rated, and his predictable and unbelievable stories practically fit the "hack" category. He is smarter than the average writer who pumps out nonsensical dragon slayer stories, in that he understand how ridiculous it is to imagine humans killing such creatures with normal weapons. So to give his 'audience' the dragonslayer stories they desire, his heroes kill dragons through quite unbelieveable magical silliness, as if a puny human could ever have more abilities in this field than the centuries old, intelligent dragons of his stories. Probably the best stories with 'magic' I have read are those of the best selling author Bernard Cornwall. There is much magic in his Arthurian world, but it is the real magic of our world, pure bluff, and superstitision. But if a person believes it enough, it is possible to die from curses and such. But this real magic doesn't shrink an enormous dragon down to a baby so you can chop off its head, like Salvatore's absurd nonsense.

Why do people read such silliness? Many do not. But maybe Carl Sagan was right about the fear of 'dragons' imbedded in our brains, and some humans are 'comforted' by tales of heroes slaying their most ancient fears. Others quash their dragon fear by insisting they never existed. Go figure.

Actually if you read these with normal adult comprehension skills, we see that metaphors ARE given like "strong AS a bull" etc. But the Gods themselves ARE CALLED great serpents dragons of Heaven. Maybe you cannot discern the difference, but most people can.

And to remove all doubt, as Grem has pointed out, Ea is described in intricate detail when in his 'dragon' form. This is clearly not a metaphor, and parts of the description sound intriguingly like a description of a theropod dinosaur, like the Heel - less feet, much like theropod dinosaurs (and apparently dragons) who walk on their toes, and what was once a heel bone, is now part of the leg.

Maybe they read them to be entertained by a work of fiction. End of story. I have many sci-fi and fantasy books, dragons appear in some of them, and it is not because I have some fear of dragons in my brain, it is because I like to read these types of stories. Why do you feel the need to try and make people out to be someone who reads silliness to quash some fear that they do not have, since dragons do not exist. There are also other mythological creatures in these books - am I trying to be comforted by these tales too to erase some primitive fear of unicorns, griffins, ogres, goblins, orcs etc etc?

DC if you eve give proof other then the misconceptions and your own word. i maybe we would all agree

Criticizing a fiction writer for being too fictitious?

Good fantasy writing should have the ability to suspend the readers disbelief and seem real.

Kind of like the "documents" you always mention but never cite?

"In a distant age, dawn will break and set the horizon ablaze" literally this means that in the future the earth will be scorched by the heat of the sun. But figuratively it means something different. "In a distant age" could mean tomorrow morning, and "dawn will break and set the horizon ablaze." could just mean its a beautiful sunrise. Figurative writing has always been misinterpreted by people, and I think the same is happening in DC's case as well. But i also believe that some of the people who wrote those words or drew the pictures or carved those stones, actually believed in dragons. That still does not equate with proof to me however.

belief ≠ proof

I would like to say however, I'm not begrudging anyone of their beliefs. DC, you should be commended in the sheer amount of research and information you bring to the table. I wish more believers would do the same. It is my right as an individual to disagree though. Your arguments are compelling and well spoken, but citing old documents or writings or carvings is not what I personally would call proof. In short, you believe what you want, and i will do the same

Ah so you mean like James Rollins?

however, that takes allot of the fun out of fantasy novels and wrighting one, for if it seems realistic then what is the point of calling it fantasy instead of just fiction?

Are you kdding>??

I think you would make a great writter. you have a sense of romantization and the right sense of imagination rather than insanity like some i wont mention, you being able to quot that (if you did it personaly) would prove all i just said.
i would like to read your book!! i would like to read your work. send me a short story if you wont mind, id be glad offer you assistance and even edit it for free.
who knows, it might be good enought to envest with and finance.

Now its not every day i get a complament like that, i've had people tell me that im a great writer but never that kind of complement thank you, but again i did not write the passage in which i quoted

R.A. Salvatore did, and i just typed it out, but i found its meaning a deep one

Are you kidding me?
They even called Evlis Presley "THE KING"! while " Gods themselves ARE CALLED great serpents dragons of Heaven".
Are you kidding me?
"And to remove all doubt, as Grem has pointed out, Ea is described in intricate detail when in his 'dragon' form"??
Grem is pointin out that they are "titles, epithets, figurative and metaphoric".
Are you kidding me?
a "hymn" is a song of praise to somebody or something other than a deity,-thats from a thesaurus or dictionary.
a "parise" to express approval or admiration for somebody or something.-also from thesaurus.
So how do you admire something using literary art? you use metaphores and intricate details! just ask anyone who has written love poems.

GOOD POINT KIDCHAOS...

Are you kidding me???
Oh my stars and garters! you called a fictional writer a "hack".???WOW. THAT IS BEYOND WICKED! A FICTIONAL WRITER is a "hack". Oh the Humor!!! You do know what a fictional writer is right? No pun intended, i mean, who in their right mind would beleive someone who writes something for fantasy and intertainment and use it for reality??? Who in their right mind would use this as a reference book for reality?
Would you use spider-man comic books to explain physics or biology? and would you refer to Stan Lee, its creator as the scientist of this work?? less youd call him a hack???
Oh the horror! oh the agony!

"The fictional writer R.A. Salvatore is a hack". if you aint laughing, you should start knowing who these poeple are or what is fiction and a fictional writer.

hey DC, what do you think of ANNE RICE and her vampires stories, you think she is a hack too?? how about J.R.R. Tolkien, is he a hack too? How about Richard Garfield, is he a hack too???Dean koonz, is he a hack too???

I see you really don't have those comprehension skills.

There really is a difference between the words "like" and "is".

For Example The Hymns say things such as , "Enki's virility is LIKE that of a raging Bull" (Like = metaphor),,, but "Enki IS a great serpent dragon of heaven" (IS = statement of fact).

If you still don't get it, ask an English teacher where you are teaching for help.

the word like isnt suposed to be metephor lear how to make your points and KC is right

man that is a low blow....

Get a life dude... dragons are just a myth... and never will be a reality... close this tread coz it sucks and no point at all...

very good judgement there, excelent! some writers stick to just writting things based all on fantasy because that would be apparently easy, your rules. But the advatage of making things as close to real as possible is the thrill the readers read base on the idea, "WHAT IF". But these are just a few. again good luck on your story.

Are you kidding me?

1.Are you kidding me?
2.I mean Are you kidding me?
3like are you kidding me?
4 no really, you must be kidding me.
5You are kidding me.
6. You are so kidding me.

DC, do you see these 6 senteces? can you even understand the difference in them? My apologies for not conveying my message directly, i find it amusing how DC reacts to the straigth forward answers.

But hey, who am i to question a man so great that he thinks that a FICTIONAL WRITER SUCH AS R.A. Salvatore as ' fit the "hack" category.' as DC says

That is simply because all DC can comprehend is Fiction and Non-fiction

He doesnt understand the idea of writing a fantasy novel

I however, have read plenty in my 16 years here

ALL of the Wheel of Time, 90% of the Warriors seris (havent read the new ones yet), Most of James Rollins books and now its on to the Legands of Drizzt and R.A. Salvatore

see DC the difference between you and i in reading and writing is
I can understand fantasy and you simply put cannot

You sure its a good idea to antagonize one of your few supporters???

The term "hack" is often used to describe bad fantasy writers with no imagination, and who simply imitate the ideas of earlier writers.

Umm...ok ok ok....DC???before anyone reads this... for your own sake D.C., and for all our sakes who use this forum. PLEASE EDIT THIS! im not the one to to scream bloody murder but im sure. so sure. that there is a federal law against defaming people, esp established names. as simple ACCUSATION can get so much trouble. Edit this before things escalate. I dont want your post to put this site in any thing people in the legal office could use against this forum, democracy and freedom of speech dont mean swat with lawyers. pls consider just editing to something more costructive. SPECIALLY THE 1st AND SECOND PARAGRAPHS. pls...

Exactly who is, and who is not a hack, as well as good or bad authors is kinda off-topic

I have written a number of fantasy stories and have won contests with some of them. I may write a fantasy book after completion of the current dragon project, which I hope, will not be regarded as a fantasy.

I fully understand the difference between good and bad fantasy. Salvatore's "work" is clearly geared for the adolesecent D&D gamer, as I have demonstrated when recounting one of the more ridiculous scenes in a previous post.

I edited the post, but I have read far harsher reviews on Amazon dot com. I don't think stating an opinion is "defaming", but since this is an international forum perhaps the rules are more stringent outside the United States.

And these stories you claim to have written their titles would be what now? DC, you don't get fantasy, the entire purpose is to captivate an audiance of they genre lovers, and to do so, requires "reasearch" in a way, to know what the great authors have done, Of whom would include two of my personal favorites

1) Robert Jordan (may he rest in peace)

and

2) James Rollins (who takes science fiction to an entirely different level)

Fantasy, is about sparking the imagination of your audiance and is in a way like acting, i know a few aspiring actors and their job is similar to that of a writer such as you or me, to grab the attention of the reader of audiance, to make them not want to look a way even for a moment, to keep the suspence and surprises coming to grab hold of more of the person or peoples attention
I at the age 16 fully understand this, when did you realize this DC, because the way i see it, you still have yet to see and understand this and that is all i have to say for this topic (the difference between you and i as writers), however when i get a title from you for your book i'll keep an eye out for it, and DC, once reading what i have written, i hope that i can expect an audiance member such as yourself

No, DS, I do know a great deal more about this than you. It comes from reading, and living many more years than you. Fantasy, like any other genre is written for different age, and even intellect levels. Some fantasy, particularly that involving gratuitous and highly unrealistic monster slaying is primairily geared for testosterone-charged adolescent boys who like to imagine they are the mighty dragonslayers in this 'level' of writing. And then there is Fantasy written for adults that relies more on character development and clever plot turns, and not gratuitous monster slaying. When you grow up a little more you will understand these things.

I mentioned it before, and if you want your fantasy stories to appeal to anyone besides other adolescent boys, the fantastic elements of your fantasy literature must be presented in a way that it will seem believable to an audience of intelligent adults. Or you can be very succesful writing children's stories like Harry Potter that make no attempt at all to seem realistic to thinking adults.

Why does fantasy have to seem realistic? The whole point is escapism. Harry is successful because the stories and characters are well written and developed. That is what makes them good and why they are very popular with both adults and children. People don't read fantasy for realism, well except for the tin foil hat brigade.

Actually Harry Potter was meant for all ages, and most adults actually like the story. Fantasy isn't supposed to be realistic at all that's why it's called "fantasy," and by the way not all adults are intelligent, just watch the news or any type of media and you will see that most adults arn't intelligent at all. Also there are actually some children that are way more intelligent than most adults.

Actually DC those are similies 'as strong as a' and 'like a...'
they are called great serpent of heaven as a metaphoric epithet, its a flattering title, an accolade....its not a literal description...as anyone with adult comprehension skills knows.
check out the description of similie and metaphor somewhere, youll find that its correct.
they are also called, 'great flood' and 'eagle's claw' and 'great bull of heaven'.
the connotations of these metaphors seem lost on someone who takes them literally.

And to remove all doubt? please dont try to claim that i support your theory, i have on numerous occasions pointed out that the poem....which is Assyrian....NOT sumerian actually describes a demonic spirit called Sassu Wunnu....which is a vengefull ASPECT of Ea....it is not Ea, Nor is it Enki.

In the same way as The lamb of God is an Aspect of Jesus.
Jesus is not a sheep.
The problem is you have no idea of what the Sumerians actually believed, how they filled their world with spirits, and how they gave these spirits form....in description and depiction.....How do you describe a spirit? how do you depict a spirit?
You make it up.
Nobody actually ever saw sassu wunnu, or ea, or enki.
They did not exist in reality.

I hope this helps to clear up any assumption that I supported your theory in any way.

Are you kidding me....'the king was not a metaphor, he really was one'...
and jesus really is a sheep
and people really do build castles in the sky....etc..
ad infinitum.

to illustrate their use of metaphor in stories, etc we only need to look at their stories about fellow mortals, who live in their city....the same accolades are used, which demonstrates that they form a part of a literary convention that was not limited to the praise of the gods......
a strong and prolific city champion might be called a 'bull of heaven' for example....this does not mean he had four legs and went moooo.
and this is just one metaphor....perhaps i should link or post some of these stories so that people get a feel for the context....
perhaps if DC read all of the literature from sumeria, rather than doing word searches for serpent and dragon and mushushu and ushumgal and homing in on them, and twisting things to fit an preconceived theory, he'd have a better appreciation for Sumerian literature, Religion, society and culture.
Perhaps then he'd represent it in the proper way.

but he wont do that, because he hopes to make money out of his misrepresentation...just as sitchin tried to convince the world that the Sumerian gods were aliens.

Don't worry Grem, I never believed you supported the theory, it is clarly beyond you understanding. I simply said if CK couldn't find the Hymns he could as you for help.

The Hymns clearly state Enki is the "Great Dragon who stands in Eridu". No hint of metaphor there. And this is why many REAL Middles Eastern scholars connect Enki with the Serpent of Eden.

Both Enki and the Biblical serpent are conected with the Garden of Eden.

Both Enki and the Biblical serpent are known as serpent-dragons. The Genesis dialogue suggests this serpent could at least walk and even fly before his punishment.

Both Enki and the Biblical serpent trick Adam/Adape out of Eternal life.

Both Enki and the serpent serve a higher heavenly deity.

So sorry Grem, you have nothing to support the fact that Enki was NOT considered a "Great serpent dragon of Heaven." Can he assume a human form. Apparently so, for he is depicted this way as well, just as it was believed Zeus could look like a human, gander, or drakon.

Evidentally you have a reading problem too. The Babylonian Hymn clearly states the dragon monster that is described IS a form of Enki (EA), so we see Enki is still believed to be a "great serpent dragon of heaven" by this culture too, and some scholars believe he may also be the cannanite dragon Yam/Yaw.

Nothing supports your view. You say these deities never existed, and that is your right. You have no proof of this. But we do have Thousands of years of human belief in dragons/dragon deities.

Quality fantasy and sci fi writers are able to make their imaginary worlds and creatures seem believable. Bad ones do not.

Obviously many stupid people don't comprehend such things. But you will find that the fantasy that appeals to thinking adults attempts to seem realistic.

Everyone has their limits to waht they think is realistic as well. DS may think it is realistic "for a guy with a sword" to kill a 100 foot long dragon, yet think it would be silly to imagine a "a guy with a sword" to kill any dragon twice that big.

I personally think any classic, fantasy dragon over 10 feet long would be more than a match for any human, simply based on the abilities of animals we know about versus the capabilites of real humans. This is why real medieval people imagined humans being able to only kill small dragons, because they actually fought real animals with swords, and knew how dangerous a bear, or wolf was, and speculated no human could kill a dragon much larger than a pony, though they did believe the Biblical God controlled huge, unstoppable dragons that would be released to destroy the wicked on Judgement Day.

Yes clearly the only reason something as unrealistic as Harry Potter is successful is because of stupidity.

Nothing to do with being well written and with an enjoyable plot at all.

It is called fantasy for a reason. If you want realism then you don't want fantasy.

That is the exact point that i have been trying to get through DCs thick skull, however he still seems bent on the fact that fantasy MUST be realistic to be called fantasy

DC, I know adult fans of the fantasy genre, and i can tell you that all of the people that i know look not for realisim in fantasy, they look for something that makes you think outside of the box, something that opens the imagination

Things like Harry Potter, The Wheel of Time and The Legands of Drizzt do that for you, they open the mind to an entirely new world a world were in some seris dragons and magic rules the land, to be succsessful one must get information on what his audiance wants, maybe the reason no one believes you about some of your "stories" that you so claim to have written (of which you provided no titles) havent appealed to the audiance, I am one of those audiance members and the person who wants to wow his audiance. For allot of my highschool life, always in englesh i have had people and my teachers tell me that i have a gift to write, that i have woven tales that have left the mind wondering at possiblities, can you claim as much i wonder? or is it just that a claim with no solid proof

DC, the point is

You may think your a great writer, but in reality, you still know little and i it so seems know more than you, I understand what the audiance and my readers look for in a fantasy genre or a fantasy seris.

I understand it, and am able to create masterpieces, although i have not yet actually written anything of major importance, nothing that has been published however, that i so hope, will soon change

With regard to fantasy, as with other art, it is clear that tastes vary. One one considers to be poignant, another considers to be droll. There are fantasy selections I enjoy, and other I do not. So, the simple solution seems to be read that which appeals.

DC point about how deadly even a small dragon would be (assuming they were real) to a man with medieval arms and armor. The characters of "Jurassic park" were on the loosing side with 6' raptors, and many of them were armed with shotguns.

Grem, sorry I hadn't replied earlier, but I was able to find little on a cthonic Athena or medusa tradition. The Greek god you mentioned was a male god of agriculture, who may have fallen out of favor as agriculture became the provance of women and slaves in Greece, and thus, pounding grain may not have been considered "manly" enough for many Greeks.

Is that first part not what ive been trying to tell people??

but thank you for finally making it clear

Writers of fiction mostly relies a great sense of imagination and a great comprehension of the language, may it be contemporary or standard. Mix with great vocabulary. Style and approach would vary. It does not need any concrete references what-so-ever. If Dragon seeker and DC would have a contest, of which one would make a good short story about dragons, which would include literary rules on short story writing, my bet would be Dragon seeker. Wining by a land slide.
But if we include Lil Grem, now that would be a great competition! Sudden death!
I'd bet that Lil Grem's work would include great manipulation of vocabulary mix with great story phasing vs. Dragon seeker's excellent imagination and plot. Both would be wonderful to read!
Collegian or profesional level!

Nothing like "ok-children, I-need-you-to-tell-me- about-dragons-for-your-homework. Make-sure-you-have-ask-mommy-or-daddy-to-read-you-your-fairytales".
Because I'm sure that the lesser would say, "I know more about dragons than you do! You don't know anything! Nyah nyah yakitiyak!" or "my dragon is better than yours! See this picture? It's a real dragon! Nyeh nyeh nyeh!" or "My dragon is real because people sing about him! ♪old mcDonald had a farm♪on his farm he had a dragon!♪"
Nothing like that at all...because.. id know who would win this one! undesputed!

9 words... WRITING IS THE WORST EXPRESSION OF THE HUMAN MIND!!! make it a comic contest or something.

Are you kidding me?

publication firms would be forced to label it fiction, because it would ruin them to release it with a label of "non-fiction"or even say that it is academic. Its against the law to publish a book or novel with improper desposition on them. your best hope would be "documentation". but i would be the devils advocate to give you false hope.
And then again there are "underground" frims, which i strongly do not support or promote because it is borderline legall. (just kidding, it is illegal)