I think Exodus is one of the best stories to extract environmental conditions from because it is a survival manifesto.

Exodus 13 (New International Version)


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...&version=31

a land flowing with milk and honey—you are to observe this ceremony in this month: 6 For seven days eat bread made without yeast and on the seventh day hold a festival to the LORD. 7 Eat unleavened bread during those seven days; nothing with yeast in it is to be seen among you, nor shall any yeast be seen anywhere within your borders. 8 On that day tell your son, 'I do this because of what the LORD did for me when I came out of Egypt.'

Let us assume that the great flood of Noah, creation and Moses parting of the Red Sea or Reed Sea are one in the same. After a global flooding event what kind of conditions will a surviving population face? Starvation and lack of fresh clean drinking water. The bread this passage is describing is commonly reffered to as hardtack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardtack

Pilot bread is a simple type of cracker or biscuit, made from flour, water, and salt. Inexpensive and long-lasting, it is and was used for sustenance in the absence of perishable foods, commonly during long sea voyages and military campaigns.[1] Historically known as hardtack (or hard tack), ship's biscuit, sea biscuit, sea bread or pejoratively dog biscuit, the name derives from the British sailor slang for food, "tack", and the crackers or biscuits have been called "tooth dullers", "sheet iron" or "molar breakers".[2]
Because it is so hard and dry, properly stored and transported hardtack will survive rough handling and endure extremes of temperature.

'I do this because of what the LORD did for me when I came out of Egypt.'

Now here is a suggestion that this event has been experienced once before.

By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. 22 Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.

Following the great flood water would absorb the suns energy and decrease the ozone level in the upper ATM. This is because ozone is created by incoming and outgoing radiation and reflection. So the interpretation is YOU can travel during the day but only under the clouds and at night with fire.

The Egyptians you see today you will never see again. 14 The LORD will fight for you; you need only to be still."

The interpretation here is that the other groups following the flood did not have the environmental information and they will perish on their own from a lack of survival knowledge. The word, “still” indicates that they must wait for the conditions to change and not fight the environmental elements.

The pillar of cloud also moved from in front and stood behind them, 20 coming between the armies of Egypt and Israel. Throughout the night the cloud brought darkness to the one side and light to the other side; so neither went near the other all night long.
21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the LORD drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, 22 and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.

I am assuming here that the Ring of Ice that caused the great flood would make half of the sky dark and the other half light. Similar to a Tsunami, the ocean waters first retracts into the sea in the form of a supper tide just prior to the first waves coming ashore. It is very common for people to run down to the ocean at this time to pick up fish, and within minutes be hit by a wall of water.

30 That day the LORD saved Israel from the hands of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians lying dead on the shore…………….. When Pharaoh's horses, chariots and horsemen [d] went into the sea, the LORD brought the waters of the sea back over them

The Egyptians ran into the sea to grab fish and got hit by a Tsunami.

When they came to Marah, they could not drink its water because it was bitter. (That is why the place is called Marah. [e] ) 24 So the people grumbled against Moses, saying, "What are we to drink?"

Following the great flood fresh drinking water would be hard to find.

25 Then Moses cried out to the LORD, and the LORD showed him a piece of wood. He threw it into the water, and the water became sweet.

Possibly a filtration of water to remove the silt and salt.

27 Then they came to Elim, where there were twelve springs and seventy palm trees, and they camped there near the water.

Fresh drinking water found. Good to go.

I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions.

At this point what there is to eat is coconuts from the palm trees but it is important that they are rationed between the group. You will only need to eat enough to survive the environmental hardship.

14 When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor. 15 When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was.

Now Exodus is just flat-out telling the reader that the Ring of Ice had fallen out of the sky.

13 That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp.

Birds will find the fresh water.

9 Then Moses said to them, "No one is to keep any of it until morning."
20 However, some of them paid no attention to Moses; they kept part of it until morning, but it was full of maggots and began to smell. So Moses was angry with them.

No fire wood so the birds could not be smoked and preserve. The meat would be bad as soon as a fly landed on it.

34 As the LORD commanded Moses, Aaron put the manna in front of the Testimony, that it might be kept. 35 The Israelites ate manna forty years, until they came to a land that was settled; they ate manna until they reached the border of Canaan.

The environment will recover in 40 years. It is suggesting here not to tell that the hardtack was important to the diet and was required to survive the event. Continue to eat it in a tradition in case it is required again in the future so you will survive once again and everyone else will die. 2008 and still keeping their mouths shut

During the melt at the end of the last ice age, the ocean levels rose 350 ft in 6000 years.

Average rise of 37mm per year for the first 2000 years, 17mm per year for the next 2000 years, and 5-7mm per year for the last 2000 years.

At present the ocean levels are being recorded as rising 1.2 - 1.5mm per year. At that rate it would take close to 37,000 years to melt off the rest of the remaining ice on the planet and subsequently raise the oceans a total of 250 additional feet.

The fear levels are exaggerated a bit much.

The 350 number is wrong. If you find an old beach sand at 350 feet deep I would be very surprised. You just wont but they can be found at about 100 feet. And the east coast of the USA is full of sunken barrier islands with wave cut platforms in 50 to 60 feet of water. These prove the water went up fast and in terms of less then a year.

About 11,000 years ago the ocean level was about 100 feet lower and about 10,000 years ago it is what it is now.

it's an interesting thought excercise H2onE2, but you start with the assumption that the Exodus and Noah's Flood occured at the same time, and in the same place. Although there is a lot of debate about Biblical chronology, it is - I believe - generaly accepted that the flood was supposed to have happened around 2340 BC, and Exodus around 1200BC.

More tellingly; there is no evidence of a flood in either Egyptian contemporay records of the period, or in terms of subsequent archeology.

Finaly, it would ride a coach and horses through the geneology of the Bible if Noah and Moses existed at the same time.

None of this makes the idea impossible , but the physical evidence to date is very stacked against it.

Incidently, you can't filter saltwater to make fresh water. (Moses and his piece of wood). The atoms of the salt molecules (sodium and chlorine) are in electrostatic solution with those of water (hydrogen and oxygen) and cannot be seperated by filtration. You could hypothesise that Moses's 'wood' was a substance that offers a greater affinity to sodium/chlorine than hydrogen/oxygen does, in which case... yes... it would purify the water. No such substance has even been discovered, or even theoreticly extrapolated, however.

Meow Purr.

I am sure that you should then be able to easily source out proof to refute the collected works and evidence of Geologists around the world then to back up your claim. Geologists are a very skeptical group of people that don't deal in hearsay but rather hard scientific data. You would be hard pressed to refute their logic on the matter.

From 13,000bc to 6000bc the ocean levels rose 110 meters...or 360ft. That is a conservative estimate based on geological evidence.



But please...by all means present what you have.

Let's make sure we credit the people who made the above graph and where it appears.

Wikipedia article on Sea Rise Level.

--Jaylemurph

I am very interested in this graph and copied it to my collection. I would pay to see the data attached to it. I have found some problems with the graph. First off what the hell? They using different regions to figure out specific times, why?

0 to 9,000 they only used data from Santa Catarina to Malacca Staits?
9,000 to 14,000 years ago Malacca Staits to Jamaica?
14,000 to 19,000 years ago they only used the data from Huon Peninsula to Vietnam?

This looks like a well funded vacation plan. Wish I had that job!

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image%3a...l_Sea_Level.png

Here is a big problem.

It should be noted that because of the latter effect and associated uplift, many islands, especially in the Pacific, exhibited higher local sea levels in the mid Holocene than they do today. Uncertainty about the magnitude of these corrections is the dominant uncertainty in many measurements of sea level change.

Ok I do not trust this graph. I found this posted at the bottom of the page.

The lowest point of sea level during the last glaciation is not well constrained by observations (shown here as a dashed curve), but is generally argued to be approximately 130 +/- 10 m below present sea level and to have occurred at approximately 22 +/- 3 thousand years ago.

I am very interested in this graph and copied it to my collection. I would pay to see the data attached to it. I have found some problems with the graph. First off what the hell? They using different regions to figure out specific times, why?

0 to 9,000 they only used data from Santa Catarina to Malacca Staits?
9,000 to 14,000 years ago Malacca Staits to Jamaica?
14,000 to 19,000 years ago they only used the data from Huon Peninsula to Vietnam?

This looks like a well funded vacation plan. Wish I had that job!

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image%3a...l_Sea_Level.png

Here is a big problem.

It should be noted that because of the latter effect and associated uplift, many islands, especially in the Pacific, exhibited higher local sea levels in the mid Holocene than they do today. Uncertainty about the magnitude of these corrections is the dominant uncertainty in many measurements of sea level change.

Ok I do not trust this graph. I found this posted at the bottom of the page.

The lowest point of sea level during the last glaciation is not well constrained by observations (shown here as a dashed curve), but is generally argued to be approximately 130 +/- 10 m below present sea level and to have occurred at approximately 22 +/- 3 thousand years ago.

It is good you brought this up because I should clarify this now. There are two major things about the bible or western scripture I don't buy into. One is the omnipotus power of a god and the other is the story timeline. All the stories are presented to describe environmental changes from the past in a allegory. And the past is not recorded in a timeline of stories. Ancient cultures used celestial observations as a clock not the stories. The timeline of change will only be found in celestial observation. I did not spend anytime extracting the celestial timeline but I am sure it is there. Also these stories and environmental history was stolen and made Jewish.

I did provide a timeline in my book.

Excerpts from the book:
http://www.H2onE2.com Glacial Respiration, Conceptual Ring of Ice, The End of Linear Western Religion
A Geological Exploration of an E2 Earthen Planet And the H2 Human Species
Author: B Billy Marse, Professional Geologist


Chronicles of the Jew in the Gentile Calendar
3761 BC Estimated Date of Creation.
2705 BC Noah and the Flood.
1313 BC The Exodus, Moses leads his people from Egyptian rule.
1272 BC The Jews enter the Land of Israel.
907 BC King David born.
849 BC King Solomon born.
833 BC King Solomon builds the Holy of Holies.
422 BC Destruction of the first Temple, Judah exiled to Babylon. End of the first temple period.
352 BC Holy Temple rebuilt. End of Era of Prophecy and beginning of Mishnaic Era. Second Temple period.
333-63 BC Hellenistic Conquest by Alexander the Great.
63-313 AD The Roman army led by Titus conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the Second Temple in 70 AD. Jewish people were then exiled and dispersed to the Diaspora.


The wood thing is unresolved. Why did he say the water became sweat as honey? A large bee hive looks like it could filter dirty water. Honey has some incredible natural properties and can be used on wounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey
Most micro-organisms do not grow in honey because of its low water activity of 0.6.

pH of honey is commonly between 3.2 and 4.5. This relatively acidic.

http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/food/honey_cure.html

Antibacterial and antifungal properties

Honey contains many minerals and vitamins beneficial to man. However, one of the most important properties seems to be its antibiotic action.
Honey has been shown to be superior to certain conventional antibiotics in treating some infections.
This bactericide (bacteria-killing) property of honey is named "the inhibition effect". Experiments conducted on honey show that its bactericide properties increase twofold when diluted with water.

I put honey in my eyes once because of this pink eye I got at the gym. Gone by the morning. I don’t think salt intrusion was the problem with the water. It was bacteria and Moses threw a bee hive into the water to kill to bugs. Most of the storms that cause coastal floods in India don’t kill the people, it is the dysentery and lack of clean drinking water.

Do you want me to tell you all of Moses's magic tricks?

Uhh, your date for the Creation is wrong. Since Bishop Ussher, it's been universally (heh heh) dated back to 4,004 BCE. October the 23rd. A Sunday, natch. The Flood, as I recall, was in 2348 BCE. Remember, the good Bishop did his thing in the first half of the 17th Century, you can't throw around the idea that he couldn't count right or didn't observe the right thing like the Ancients...

Not that I believe that sort of Creationist silliness anyway, but still, might as well be accurate in your nuttery.

--Jaylemurph

As far as flood accounts are concerned the epic of Gilgamesh is an older sumerian account of the flood unlike the story of Noah. Since Abraham came from the land of Sumer its probable that he simply borrowed Sumerian legends to fit his new religion. There are many accounts of different tribes that survived the great flood which tells me it was probably one great event. Theres a Norse account and an Aboriginal, a Chinese...etc.

Recently I was watching this Discovery Channel account of the cataclysm that caused a great worldwide flood and it is believed to have been caused by a meteor hitting the earth somewhere over the ice sheet that was covering the Northern portion of USA. There was evidence found in a layer of dirt roughly 10000bc old that contained tiny magnetic spheres that contained nanodiamonds. A telltale sign of a meteor explosion. Asked where the hole is, the scientist responded that the meteor slammed into 2 mi. thick ice so it wouldnt leave much of a crater but would wreak havoc like melting the ice sheets rapidly.

I would think an explosion like that could knock the earths axis slightly off center too so that the poles would be thrust in a slightly more temperate zone to melt alot more ice too. Triggering of Volcanoes and/or tectonic movements, earthquakes could have followed.

The Bible is not an accurate historical reference. Only an account to be compared with other flood accounts that existed at the time. Just another book to cross reference I guess.

Earth gets hit all the time with meteors. There is no reason to determine large scale climatic events on a shooting gallery effect when a pattern of natural transition can easily and simple explained.

My numbers were from the first person to count backwards. You can probably do a search on my numbers and find the source. Bishop Ussher did it again in the 17th century. Others have come up with even a different set. My calculator needs batteries so I am not going to do it.

H2One2 said :

"Earth gets hit all the time with meteors. There is no reason to determine large scale climatic events on a shooting gallery effect when a pattern of natural transition can easily and simple explained. "

Your not listening to the evidence before you. You also dont take into account or cross reference other events that happened quickly around 10000bc. By the way, the earth doesnt get hit with meteors that cause catastrophic damage all the time.
If it was a gradual natural change over time as you say then why was there a story of an ark in the 1st place whether Noah or Gilgamesh? Read the Norse account of the flood from thye same time, it describes how the stars fell from the sky, thats what it looks like during a pole shift. You dont think the earth just changed poles on its own do you?
That chart is not the bottom line, neither is the bible, you have to look at all the answers from different scientists and thier discoveries.

pole shift is a change in electrical current flow which makes your compass point south instead of north. Stars don't fall out of the sky and the planet won’t turn upside down. I am a scientist and have examined as much data from ice cores to coastal changes in sand deposition, than any other specialist. I addition I have also taken grad level climate change classes. Studied all the current theories from daisie world to greenhouse gases. I am being censored because I figured everything out. I suggest you read the chapter prologue at the bottom of my website.

Its a very simple process easy for a scientist to understand...ok here it goes. Earth get s hit by meteor. Earths axis is slightly changed, I never said a pole flip. You sid that. When the earth changes alignment in relation to the stars it looks like the stars are falling. Norse account. Not mine.

Maybe I misunderstood your original post but I could have swore I heard you saythe Exodus story is a good account of a biblical flood?

I love the ice core science aspect. I really do. But your not answering me on something really big. The mammoths. They died where the polar circle is now. It was once temperate there. It was a steppe plain where they fed in summer months. They were frozen instantly in thousands stretching from East Russia all the way west. They still had undigested food in thier stomachs.

Explain this, why are there old civilisations being found under 60 feet of ocean water around the world? Not only are they buried under water but all around the world , if you listen, many different cultures describe surviving a great flood.

I too have seen scientists describing a meteor event in the ice core samples roughly 10000 years ago.

So what is your site Ill see what you have posted there?

Earth would need to get hit by a moon sized object to slightly change its orbit. When you are talking in terms of stars falling from the sky, I would have to say it is not a reality.



Yes but it is not a Hebrew account of the flood. The story was made into a Jewish tale or fable and made contemporary to the time. This was done to mask the environmental importance.



The Mammoths lived throughout many latitudes not just the polar circle. Mammoth bones have even been found in Florida. Yes they were found frozen but let’s not straight-out assume that is how they died. I am not sure about undigested food in their stomachs. Have we really located and examined a complete stomach of a frozen Mammoth?

I believe the Mammoths were killed off by two different environmental forces, given that they first survived the flood. You will have to watch my video to understand what physically happens when earth gets flooded. It all comes down to the formation of ozone. Ozone is formed by incoming and outgoing sun radiation. When earth gets flooded out going radiation is absorbed into the water column and ozone levels in the atmosphere decreases.

The decrease in ozone will indicate UV radiation on the surface will go from parts per billion to possible 0.10% on the earth surface for a brief period. This effect would be similar to being stuck in a suntan both all day long. This event was long enough where all biology is forced to find shelter. The biblical story of Lot living in a cave is a reference to these conditions. Although humans could find shelter in a cave, mammoths could not.

Sunburns would lead to blisters only to be followed by infections and death. Mammoths would migrate to northern regions. The ones that made it there and located food sources would then be treated to a short period where the earth supper heated from the creation of the inland oceans. Once the inland ocean drained northern regions would become instantly cold.




Advanced civilizations advance because of trade. Trade in ancient times requires coastal shipping. The difference between the Iron and Bronze Age is what tin? Prior to 10,000 years ago ocean water level was about 100 feet low. This water was stored in two reserves, one the ice sheet and two airborne into the atmosphere. When the ice in the atm transforms into rain the ocean levels would jump over night to about/roughly 10 feet higher. Over the next 40 years they would go up 30 more feet due to the inland oceans supper heating the atmosphere. The remaining 60 feet would be gradually refilled into the oceans over a few hundred years.

Advanced civilizations along the cost would be removed physical and mankind is forced to restart from the primitive mountain cultures.

This is a very short version and the description in a BOOK is much more convincing and can be reinforced with addition correlation.




I am not buying into any meteor event regulating earth's total climate change and large scale patterns.



www.H2onE2.com 15 pages of the 96 page book is post in the footer section of the website.

This Norse account should be avalable HERE. I'm not finding it. Could you help?


This never happened. That explains it fairly well.

Don't take pseudoscience at its word and you won't make this mistake again.


There is a phenomenon called subduction that has caused what you are calling "old civilizations" to be flooded. But to go further, you'd have to tell me which "civilizations" you're thinking of. There have been no "civilizations" wiped out by flood that we know of (using the proper definition of the term civilization.) No culture has ever been wiped out by flood either. (That we have found evidence of, I mean.) More than a few have, on the other hand, been wiped out by drought. Too bad the Bible didn't claim a worldwide drought.

There are several campsites of the Jomon Culture that are today under sea level off the shores of East Asia. But they weren't wiped out. They were flooded over a loooog period of time by the melting that occured at the end of the last Ice Age.

The Jomons were making pottery in 14,000 BC.

Individual cities have been flooded rapidly. Take New Orleans, for example.

Floods happen often, all over the world. Early cultures took root near water sources, of course. The Ocean is not a water source. Hence they were near rivers and lakes.

They don't call them floodplains for nothing.

I also don't agree with the OP's ideas about the Exodus.

There is simply no reason to believe it ever happened, and no reason to believe there was ever a major flood that could correspond to the Biblical one.

Harte

I like this idea....and your other related ideas on this matter.






You didn't actually say charcoal.....but this is what I thought the 'wood' might be...perhaps charcoal
to, as you say....filter dirty water?

And maybe when they said 'sweet'....it MIGHT have been a way of saying that it became OK....?

That it became as 'clean/pure' as honey.....? Just a thought.




Nice idea....about honey and hives.....I'm a big fan of honey....in fact I start everyday with TWO mugs
of tea...with a big spoon of honey in each!

But I digress....I wonder how many bees/hives there were in this area at the proposed time...and I
wonder how bees would get on if there was a widespread flood....gather on the high-places like
everyone else, I surpose.

Harte --

Why get involved in this particular dispute? Just get some pop-corn and watch "Battle of the Pseudo-historians" as they tear apart the details a variety of fictional events. It's like a "Picard versus Kirk" or "UNIT -- in the 70s or 80s?" argument with even less social relevance.

--Jaylemurph

You've examined this data more than any other specialist? Yeah, okay. And you're being censored? And you're a scientist to? If you were I'd think you'd see you have no actual evidential basis for your assumptions nor any contrary evidence to current geologic models. You'd probably also know that a world-wide flood is an utter impossibility, but I digress.

Slow day, I guess.

I often wonder the same thing though. In all actuality, it's pointless to get involved in basically every thread here.

Why do I (and you) do it?

Because it is there?

Masochism?

An affinity for the absurd?

I dunno.

Harte

Well, certainly there's a bit of masochism involved, just like there's /some/ amount of exhibitionism in all actors, and probably some affinity for the absurd.

But it's probably for the same reason we both went into teaching...

--Jaylemurph

There are at least 34 world cultures that give reference to a Great Deluge and Massive Flood, including the Hopi Indian people of the Northern United states, the Hopi also give a very interesting account of the coming of beings in the future from the Orion Star System, it is very interesting to read up other cultural beliefs and ancient histories, but as for a Huge world wide Deluge there are 34 world cultures that believe in or have refrences to the event, in their Petro glyphs, cave paintings, doctrines of parchments and taught beliefs, including in the Quran as stated here, the Quran there is References to the Flood and the Ark, as Surah 29:14 refers to the ark as safina, “an ordinary ship”, and surah 54:13 as “a Thing of boards and nails”. surah 11:43 says it settled upon Mount Judi, identified as a hill near the location of the town of Jazirat ibn Umar found upon the Eastern bank of the Tigris River in the province of Mosul in present day Northern Iraq. Taken from Wikipidia.com

Genesis Et (eight) 8:4 >>>And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

Genesis Et (Eight) 8:11 >>>And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
One of the most stunning Illustrations of Gustave Dore the famed 19th century Illustrator I believe every did was the entitled “The Dove Sent Forth From The Ark” as it is the most astounding creation of contrasts I have ever seen to this day in the world of Art as it contrasts death of life of sin and corruption and Life speared for the wholesome and good and all of nature God so chose to save, this seine is very heart moving to say the least, as in the mist of all this death and there resting this huge ark in the center of this Illustration Dore places a wee Lone White Dove of Representing Peace and Goodness of heart in innocents.


But hay do not let fear of Arts and documentations of 34 cultures beliefs sway your beliefs...


Just thinking outside the Box

Pavot

I wonder how many of these 34 stories ultimately derive from a single source, as the one in the Sumerian mythology, Greek mythology, Q'uran and the Bible all obviously do. (And no, this doesn't mean "they all evolved from a single, real-life event).

--Jaylemurph

And there are thousands more that don't. Who cares? Also, not all of those cultures state the floods in their myths were worldwide and again, who cares? Myth is not evidence. The Hopi-Orion connection is also a bunch of BS. It's Wilson, Hancock, Davis, etc. pseudo babble. These guys look at a bunch of mounds and see whatever they want in them to further their foolish theories. Might as well throw the Dogon stories in there as well.

Oh no please I did not mean to give the assumption that it was all from one event but it would be very interesting to research them all if possible and find exactly how many Great floods, do come into relation to the one he is here referring to in the Christian Bible...

Again please I meant no disrespect to any here upon the form or thread. I am just trying to see all issues of every one as outside of the box before I go a make assumptions and claim them a factual or gospel truths, there is always the problem with antiquity and translations and retranslations to events that get lost, stories and with human bias added into the equations and that also changes the outcome, and then there is Hallucinogenic herbs in shamanism and drinks of wine. But if these 34 cultural documentations were all studied as in references to A Huge Deluge of one given time in the days of Noah, then wow, what a find, but then, that would just show there was a huge Deluge wouldn’t it, some needing solid to back up or prove Noah's flood would need to wait a bit longer for those Mountain glaciers to melt and subside a bit more wouldn't they...and for the Christian believers, they do not need any proof, it is that they are trying to show the world what they believe is what they believe in...but it can be done in a passive non violent non aggressive, and non combative way...I respect all religions and ways of life, I don't need for myself to change who I am spiritually to respect all others beliefs, nor do I wish to change any ones else’s beliefs, if I preach it is for respect of all others, but hay I am just a dreamer, but I am not the only one, I do believe the last man that made that quote as popular took a bullet if I am not mistaken...Good Karma... Pavot

Sadism?




Excuse me....butting into the staff meeting....but...I'm getting some disturbing images here....
like....teachers out of a Charles Dickens story...? So many naughty posters to CORRECT....so
many ideas to SQUASH?

Just playing........

Oh! Sure! Thanks Bee for tossing water balloons into the debate, laughing here with you, always good to have a smile going in, thank you…Pavot

Someone's got to do something with the non-sense you and CS put out there....

--Jaylemurph

I like to think of it more as sense-sibyl....

But anyway...I was quite pleased with my very practical, down to earth SUGGESTION about charcoal
earlier in this thread.....

That's the cleverest thing I've seen in ages, bee!



I was impressed by that, as well, and think it wouldn't be be cricket not to say so. Granted, I don't think the Exodus happened, and I don't think it was the same thing as the Flood (which I also don't think happened, not in Biblical terms, anyway), but that was imminently the most practical bit of logic in this thread.

--Jaylemurph

God, I wish that one day someone with a "Native American Mythology" claim would link to a legitimate Native American website containing the myth.

I never seem to find these "inexplicable" stories when I go looking.

Usually ends up being nothing like what the poster claimed.

Harte

I seem to remember Lapiche mentioning some. (The memory is vague, but I seem to think he described one to counter someone else's gross misunderstanding of it...) He's a historian and ethnologist, so he'd be a respectable source.

--Jaylemurph

PS -- I'm sure MAD has a CBI Micmaq version for you, too...

One Source for the native American Hopi Tribes account with the Great Creator and the Deluge is if you go to Wikipedia dot com or Google and type in Deluge, open upon Wikipedia dot com and click upon Noah’s Flood, (Mythology) and a listing of other cultural listings with flood references, click upon Hopi and it will give you a brief account of their believe of the Great Flood that the Great Spirit creating that destroy the wicked people, you may need for yourself a bit of an understanding of North American mythology to fully grasp all that is stated there, but it pretty much gives the shorter version of the event, I would give you a direct lick here but choose to not load up direct links to web sites unless I have to..But Wikipedia Dot com has a lot…one more thing, if you take into account that and if the Hopi Deluge event was the same as Noah’s then as the Hopi state that there were wholesome good people saved of the Hopi Tribe, then if we are going buy this, we can only then have to conclude that there was in fact more than Noah and his Family of eight that were survivors now don’t we…and you will have to come up with you own concuctions as I am not willing to go out upon that limb, as it will offend others.

Just thinking outside of the Box… and as of yet I have not been blasted by a bolt of Lightning for doing so…Pavot

I wonder if teachers think since they've learned how to teach a course like shop class, phys ed, or philosophy that all of a sudden they are the last word on anything.

Scientists are no better sometimes. Always with them say are the last word on what is and isnt possible.

Im sure at one point in human history the wheel was an impossibility, so it was never taught.



H2one2 said:

"Sunburns would lead to blisters only to be followed by infections and death. Mammoths would migrate to northern regions. The ones that made it there and located food sources would then be treated to a short period where the earth supper heated from the creation of the inland oceans. Once the inland ocean drained northern regions would become instantly cold"



That's a pretty interesting theory. Could you explain it a little more. What caused the radiation in the first place? Did a meteor strike cause this situation...etc.?


I have a question too. What would happen if the earth was hit from behind its orbit around the sun. In other words if a meteor struck the earth that was big enough...could it not only disrupt the axis but push the earth forward in a more elliptical orbit around the sun until things returned to normal? SO if it was pushed further outward from the sun the winter would be more harsh...or winters, because if this happened I would have no idea how long it would take to go back to a normal orbit. Anyway, just wondering.

Very few do. However, they also have a sound understanding of the theories and practices they discuss, which is considerably different from some people here. Trained people ipsa facto know more about their field than amateurs and dilettantes.

Besides, quite frankly, it's only someone who doesn't spend a lot of time with scientists, historians or other academics that go on and on about how academics think they're the last word. Very few academics would ever say that about themselves.

--Jaylemurph

Thanks. I found this at wiki:

Source

So apparently, the deluge version of this story is the less prevalent one.

Why do you not like to provide links?

Harte

Ooh ooh! I want in!

I thought there was considerable evidence that there was a pretty massive flood around 8000 years ago. Here's a link.

If that were the case, it would be localized flooding, but it would make sense that the people affected by it would think it was world wide. Their entire world consisted of a few square miles. It would also make sense that there are several contintents with flood stories, because at the time of the climate change in the article, flooding was occuring all over the world.

Whatcha think?

Sd,

I'd heard of this meltwater pulse before, but this is the first time it's been successfully modeled.

Nice article.

Seems like I recall that even this flood wouldn't have raised sea levels fast enough to account for a global event, but your point about local flooding is certainly valid.

Other, smaller glacial lakes were likely breaking through in other locations.

Harte

That is a very good point, as how possible could a tribe of people or a group of people if they were to build themselves fafts of reeds or construct wooden vessel small of massive, how could they know that the entire world was flooded all at once, and in a major disaster people’s lives are greatly disrupted, to the point of all of what they own and their stable world and way of life, their life supporting crops destroyed, I would speculate that they would pull together and help one another, and thus seem as all good people doing good hearted deeds to help each other, but then if we look at situations where people are cornered or trapped then we see individuals or banding groups turn very ugly and even vicious, I was going to suggest the Alfred Hitchcock Movie Life Boat, but that is using a movie although Hitchcock was brilliant in his thinking, although very dark in nature, and so in a real Life case in point, the Sports Arena where the authorities gathered the masses of survivors right after the Destruction of Hurricane Katrina where Gangs formed and people went to animalistic barbaric acts of violence, so my point is besides the tribal village or town survivors assuming that the whole world was presently submerged or destroyed by a Gobal flood, how do they even know that there even was a would other then the land mass they live upon and also by what do they determine all of those that made it moral stabding are of those that also survived along with them as in fact good and wholesome puritan people.

Anyways it has been a good thread here upon the Deluge, I understand it was based upon Biblical scripture as to be as evidence but if we are speaking here of a World flood, then we must also take into account and analyze what other cultures have documented about a Major Life disrupting cataclysmic flood or floods, it would be as basing the understanding of all Heaven bodies upon just what we know as facts or aboriginal shamanistic stories about the earth or its moon and not taking into the account of all the other planets and suns we know about in astronomy, all criteria and evidences must be put to or applied rather to the questions at hand.
Thank you for allowing me my say and input here…Pavot


Also I would like to mention here that I remember viewing a Documentary a few years ago, I believe it was a NOVA doc. But it was upon public broadcasting network, the topic was a Huge Mage flood Hypothesis where as I believe if my memory directs me right here was due to a Mega Lake or reservoir and it at one end gave way and devastated the lands of the central and western North American continent and if it actually did happen as hypothesized then it could have very well carved or had a major eroding effect upon the Grand Canyon, and that could in theory be the very basses of the Hopi Flooding.

Unless I'm misremembering, the flood you're talking about carved out the "Badlands" in either North or South Dakota (or both.)

Might have been the same flood that Sundog was talking about - I'm not really up on the dates.

The Grand Canyon was not carved in this way. It is known that it took a very long time to carve the Grand Canyon because, the way it was cut, the land had to be slowly uplifted while the Colorado River flowed over it. This sort of uplift takes millions of years.

Recently, the time it took to carve the Grand Canyon was found to be around twice what it was originally thought to be.

The flood from any glacial dam melting/breaking would certainly be memorable to anyone downstream, if the lake was big enough.

Harte

Today I awoke and made my comitment from within my heart and inner spirit to be as a Grandfather not to just only my three Grand Children but to all Life...we all have Heart Choices to be made here today...Pavot

Thank you for that information Harte, I will remember that about the Bad Lands as I do believe you are correct as that as I had motioned my memory of the documentary is rather vague, and you are also right upon the Grand Canyon but I sure would like to know where the Hopi believes of the Flood was based upon, is rather very intriguing to me, perhaps if I ever again get to return to The Hopi Reservation to visit my friends there I can respectably inquire more upon the flood from the elders, for the Hopi People their way of Life and their spirituality intertwines and they still live this way even this day, they are truly wonderful good hearted people, and visiting their Home land is a very humbling spiritual event and journey, but the way also it is known in the Hopi folklore that they did not originate from their present day home land, here is the Web Link to a the Hopi Prophecy a very lengthily article, it is worth the time spent to read it through. www.geocities.com/whitecrystalmirror/prophecy.html All cultures and people on earth deserve that and respect. Although one sores states that it is believed thought the Hopi People migrated north from the Region of present day Mexico around 500 BC. One of the Many Hopi Kachinas is the Blue Star Kachina named Sohu Katsina.

Go to Youtube dot com and check out walk these Grandmothers and Grandfathers the Hopi Elders have to say to the world tribal community, there is great wisdom in that which they have to say to teach to us.
Indigenous Native American Prophecy (Elders Speak part 1) (2) (3) (4) (5) In these YouTume.com Videos we hear the elders speak upon Responsibility to the generations to come. These elders are very gentle speaking from their inner heart Spirits and they have a lot for the world to hear in these massages, it is commonsense and truth, respect to our families, the earth and nature, and in all we are all as one Quote from Hopi Elder: When do you seize to be a CEO and become a Grandfather?
All Life mean every living organisms upon the earth, we are responsible for all Life.

Pavot

My understanding is that the Hopi consider the Anasazi to be their ancestors. The Anasazi lived in the four corners area, in Chaco Canyon, among (I'm sure) many other places until they for some reason retreated into cliff dwellings like they were under attack.

Maybe I have that wrong, but I don't remember a theory of the Anasazi coming from Mexico. Maybe they came from the Dakotas, and then that could be the source of the Hopi's flood myth.

I do remember researching the subject as a side note to my looking into the origins of the Aztecs. The main theory there says the Aztecs came south into Mexico from the Southwestern area of the USA around the time the Anasazi were still living in or around Chaco Canyon.

By the way, I think the "Hopi Prophecy" - if it's the same one - has been basically refuted here and at at ATS when a poster contacted representatives of the Hopi Nation, who said they'd never heard of it. Or maybe that was just over at above top secret and not here.

Anyone else here remember whether that happened here? Sometime last year, I think.

Maybe you're talking about a different "prophecy."


Harte

From what I've read, the legends of their descendants suggest they came from a place North of the Four Corners area.*

--Jaylemurph


*Jaylemurph does not recommend taking any legends as /completely/ accurate.

Earth would need to get hit by a moon sized object to slightly change its orbit. When you are talking in terms of stars falling from the sky, I would have to say it is not a reality.

The Norse or Vikings did migrate into a volcanic region, Iceland. Although they are not an extremely articulate, ancient or literate group.





Yes but it is not a Hebrew account of the flood. The story was made into a Jewish tale or fable and made contemporary to the time. This was done to mask the environmental importance.



The Mammoths lived throughout many latitudes not just the polar circle. Mammoth bones have even been found in Florida. Yes they were found frozen but let’s not straight-out assume that is how they died. I am not sure about undigested food in their stomachs. Have we really located and examined a complete stomach of a frozen Mammoth?

I believe the Mammoths were killed off by two different environmental forces, given that they first survived the flood. You will have to watch my video to understand what physically happens when earth gets flooded. It all comes down to the formation of ozone. Ozone is formed by incoming and outgoing sun radiation. When earth gets flooded out going radiation is absorbed into the water column and ozone levels in the atmosphere decreases.

The decrease in ozone will indicate UV radiation on the surface will go from parts per billion to possible 0.10% on the earth surface for a brief period. This effect would be similar to being stuck in a suntan both all day long. This event was long enough where all biology is forced to find shelter. The biblical story of Lot living in a cave is a reference to these conditions. Although humans could find shelter in a cave, mammoths could not.

Sunburns would lead to blisters only to be followed by infections and death. Mammoths would migrate to northern regions. The ones that made it there and located food sources would then be treated to a short period where the earth supper heated from the creation of the inland oceans. Once the inland ocean drained northern regions would become instantly cold.



Advanced civilizations advance because of trade. Trade in ancient times requires coastal shipping. The difference between the Iron and Bronze Age is what tin? Prior to 10,000 years ago ocean water level was about 100 feet low. This water was stored in two reserves, one the ice sheet and two airborne into the atmosphere. When the ice in the atm transforms into rain the ocean levels would jump over night to about/roughly 10 feet higher. Over the next 40 years they would go up 30 more feet due to the inland oceans supper heating the atmosphere. The remaining 60 feet would be gradually refilled into the oceans over a few hundred years.

Advanced civilizations along the cost would be removed physical and mankind is forced to restart from the primitive mountain cultures.

This is a very short version and the description in a BOOK is much more convincing and can be reinforced with addition correlation.



I am not buying into any meteor event regulating earth’s total climate change and large scale patterns.



www.H2onE2.com

That's a difficult statement to support. They were as articulate and literate as any other group in Europe, producing poetical Eddas and Sagas that are still read and appreciated, and rivalling anything contemporary (certainly in English). They had a rich folklore that's also still with us.

And they were comprised of several groups of peoples, many of which (like the Geats or Goths) predate the great kingdoms of Western Europe.

--Jaylemurph

I am having a hard time tracking these posts because the page doesn't post them all. I have some list of posts and replies.

In my book I describe all the scientific mechanisms that cause a world-wide flood.

Free videos include:






My videos are all about the great flood. I have not made a video on the actual mechanisms because, they are not as entertaining as other topics. I am also making two more videos so I have to get back to work but I will be checking this post.

The fist thing I do when I interpret ancient structures is, attempt to find a use for them in this life not the next. I actually claim that totem poles are structures that the coastal and fluvian Indian tribes used to rescue themselves from a great flood. Mounds are also addition structures built for survival in these life.

Check out my Video

Doesn't this sort of imply that the people who made (and still make) these things are too stupid to know what they're really for? Granted, it's Pseudo-historical Writing 101 to suggest Aboriginal people couldn't possibly build/do the things they do with assistance but I, uhh, wouldn't make such a statement myself...

...but then again, I wouldn't say something like "the Vikings weren't literate or ancient, either."

--Jaylemurph