If Jesus died for the sins of all people, then why does it matter how we act now? If we're all supposed to be forgiven because he died, then theoretically couldn't we do whatever we wanted and still get off the hook?

What about tribes that have never heard of jesus! Does this apply to them as well?

Dying for everyones sins is just that, "Everyone". So, when we say what about the people who have
never even heard of christianity, then it becomes kind of strange, that why would jesus die on a cross
knowing that not everyone would even learn about it.

Exactly. Plus, it depends on what one considers a sin, and there are times when sins can be justified, so that doesn't make a lot of sense....

Yes - it is so subjective it looses all meaning in the end.

The latest on the grapevine is that Hell isn't even all fiery torment anymore. Just a nothingness or 'separation from God'. Doesn't sound so bad.

Yeah, but that's not much of a punishment for non-believers....They're not close to God when they're alive, so would it matter if they weren't close to God when they were dead? I don't think so..... Nothingness however, still isn't a very loving thing for an all-loving God to do to his creations that he loves so much.

As to the original question, different denominations of Christianity differ among themselves as to what sins Jesus died for.

Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox differ on the heritability of guilt for original sin question, and so about whether that was part of Jesus' burden. Both are inclined to the view that individuals bear responsibility for their own ("actual") sins. Jesus' death becomes part of the explanation of how those sins might come to be forgiven in these traditions.

Protestant views can differ, too, from "almost" Catholic-Orthodox to Jesus took the full hit for punishment arising out of any sin (yes, including sins by those who never heard of Jesus in some inflections * ). It is hard to generalize about sola scriptura denominations since, in principle, there could be as many answers to your question as there are members.

Punishment is not the only consequence of sin in the Christian worldview. Since sin is action contrary to God's will, it is something to be avoided, since no good will come of it ** , even if you are not punished for it, even if you are forgiven for doing it. Jesus' death does not make sinning consistent with God's will.

Hope that helps, and I am reporting views, not endorsing them.

-----

* whose sins is currently being discussed on the "other" board

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=123004

** an English idiomatic expression, not necessarily a literal theological position

Thanks Eight, that makes a lot of sense. But if people sinned and were forgiven, would God still hold it against them, or would he just let bygones be bygones?

We're forgiven if we seek forgiveness in Jesus Christ. Not everybody seeks forgiveness.

It does matter how you act now, because you're not really seeking forgiveness if you continue to be in rebellion against God.

My understanding is that God would allow the temporal consequences of a forgiven sin to play themselves out here on earth, but that once forgiven, the sinner's eligibility for eternal reward is unaffected by the sin.

So bygones aren't bygones, but reconciliation without recrimination would be the final outcome.

BUT the Bible says Jesus died for all of our sins. Therefore, if we take this in a LITERAL sense, everyone's sins are mute because of Jesus. But as Eight pointed out, that isn't the case if we don't take this as literally as possible. We're not talking about seeking forgiveness from following Jesus though, so let's not get off topic, shall we?

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification Eight.

Why SEEK forgivness if you are already saved from sin??

I can fully understand why a christian feels the need to accept this gift from Jesus..its decent to accept any gift...but to seek out forgivness...

You gotta use the #1 Roman Emperor loophole
Don't get Baptized until you are on your deathbed, this way you can commit as many horrendous evil crimes against humanity and at the end wash all your sin away . . . . LOL!

Funny you should say that..washing the sins away lol

FOr it was said that when John the baptist, did this, it was to wash away sins.....right? so what in the name of washing machines was Jesus doing in a line up to have a wash?? LOL he lined up to get baptized too..so was he really looking his sins washed away??

Imaine the future of baptisim...the new automatic washing sin machine LMAO..hope in and go for the spin of your sinful life, have your sins all washed and at the same time, come out smelling of roses the new - Sin o matic!!

Haha, nice. That would ensure you a place in heaven according to the Bible I guess!

The whole statement of Jesus dieing for our sins is a twist of words.

I shall explain:

All we have to do is look at how humans spoke back then. The word "for" does not mean the same thing as it does now.

Linguistic example: The next sentence you will see is how they spoke back then, useing the word "for" in the correct manner:

He is an evil man FOR he has slain his wife and children!

Now the word "for" VERY quickly means "because".

"I have died for yous sins" = "I have died because of your sins"

While we are on the subject of linguistics differences let us annalize the word "virgin". Today we all know what the word "virgin" means. Back then it was VERY different. Back then the word "virgin" meant you were not married and had no children. Guess what?! In this context my sister is a virgin and she has 3 kids! As are some of my friends that aslo have children.

The "Virgin Mary" isn't so "virgin" any more huh?

You can have children out of wedlock and STILL be a "virgin". By the same token ytou can be married, have no clidren, and STILL be a "virgin"

This is the most intelligent and profound post of yours that I have ever read. It's a really good question that christians need to answer.

Why shoud you be seeking forgiveness if you (technically) already have it? By saying we need to seek forgiveness you are saying that everytime some is forgiven, jesus dies once more.

Jesus died for sins as part of a new dispensation period. The period before this required animal sacrifice of your best, most pure, as a token of seeking forgiveness but also the keeping of the law. Salvations of this type was for the Jews. That is not to say others not Jews could not be good people themselves.

When Jesus came it was to be the final sacrifice, but also at the hour of crucifixion the curtain of the temple was rented, from top to bottom, in order to show such animal sacrifices were no longer needed. Not only that but it no longer required a high priest to go into the innermost sanctum of the temple to sacrifice yearly on behalf of the Israelites. Salvation was no longer just for the Jews but for all.

In this new era, the one since then, all one needs is to accept the Spirit to dwell within in, instead of some building, and it would help us be good people. It is basically a system of salvation for all. It is a helper to not only overcome sin, because without it might be hard for us to stop sinning, but also to connect us directly to God as long as the Spirit is within.

The system allows some to be set apart, as holy, as living temples of God, to be free. Not that everyone will become perfect but it is a process of purification and getting purer so when we die we, as the Jews before, can be God's chosen people. And again that is not to say people cannot be good without it but we believe it makes it easier.

This is what we think. Without the Spirit you are none of His. You can be good on your own though and have your own clean conscience and not feel guilty. The law is still written on your heart. But those who do not have the Spirit are are not of His.



Christ though did not pray for those who reject Him.



But He did pray for those who will come to believe in Him in the future, at least the future from the point of time He spoke these words. His prayer back then was for all of His people even the ones unborn who would come to Him later in their lives.



So yes Christ died for our sins and also came to life (the more important party of the equation) so we can come to life. If one does not choose Christ then His dying for your sins is a gift you do not accept. We each have to work for out salvation ourselves and should not judge others: bottom line. So Yes, Christ died for all our sins but the gift that comes with it, the Spirit, will not be accepted by all. So in a way He died for your sins only if you let Him.

Let me state this boldly and succinctly: Jesus did not die for your sins or for my sins.

That proclamation is theological nonsense. It only breeds more violence, as we seek to justify the negativity that religious people dump on others because we can no longer carry its load. We must rid ourselves of it. One can hardly refrain from exhorting parents not to spare the rod lest they spoil the child, if the portrait of God at the heart of the Christian story is that of an angry parent who punishes the divine Son because he can take it and we cannot.

The interpretation of Jesus as the sacrificed victim is a human creation. It was shaped in a first-century world by the disciples of Jesus, who drew on their Jewish liturgical symbols as a way the Crucifixion might be understood. They borrowed this understanding directly from the Jewish Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, in which an innocent lamb was slaughtered to pay the price for the sins of the people. The sinful people then had the cleansing blood of that sacrificial lamb sprinkled on them.

John Shelby Spong retired Bishop of Newark ,New Jersey

This is what eerks me about Christianity.
The majority of Fundamentalists believe the following:
1. No. Jesus died so we CAN be forgiven.
2. Everyone sins, and all sins are equal in the eyes of god.
3. If you have only 1 forgiven sin, then you will probably go to hell.
4. One can only have their sins forgiven by going to church and praying to jesus.
5. Everyone sins sometime in their life.
6. Sin is the only factor that determines whether you go to heaven or hell.

Obviously, there are millions of normal Christians who DO NOT believe this.
You see, this entire belief is simply a trap for Christianity; It makes it so ONLY Christians can have their sins forgiven, which I believe is completely immoral and wrong.

Also, this belief pertains the whole 'all sins are equal' thing. I find this extremely immoral. It is simply a trap to make Christianity seem important.

To me, there are 3 scenarios:
A. No heaven, no God. I'm dead. Big deal. I've already spent an eternity dead, before I was born.
B. There is a kind God that judges people on how good they were, and how bad they were. I believe it is important to strive to get into this kind of God's heaven. I believe even Richard Dawkin's would get into this God's heaven.
C. God is a stuck up, immoral arrogant git. He only lets a certain religion into his heaven, and throws everyone else to hell. If you ask me, I'd rather be in hell then this God's heaven. Eternity is a long time, people. I believe it would be better to spend it knowing you made the right choice.

As you can see, in any possibility, there is absolutely no reason to be a certain religion, just a good person.

Cheers,
SQLserver

You bring up a few interesting points in this one simple sentence, Lady O. This concept forms the basis of the Christian Faith, and people have literally written books on this one idea. So to answer this question I am finding it difficult to condense my answers to a short and relatively quick read.

First is that it is absolutely true that Jesus did come to die for our sins. I won't quote Bible passages, but the New Testament is full of references to Jesus dying for our sins. However, it is also clear that this act can only relate to us if we accept that Jesus died for us. A gift is not a gift until it is accepted as a gift. I can offer you a gift, but if you refuse to take it, then you will not receive it.

The second point you raise though, and this is the point of interest, does it matter how we act now? Could we do whatever we want and still get off the hook? It might surprise you (or it might not) to know that the Bible actually addresses this exact question, very specifically. Paul, in Romans 6, speaks of people who have turned and become believers but are under the notion that they can continue to sin. In Chapter 5, Paul addresses the concept that Jesus' death forgives all sin, and as such a person who has sinned only a little will be forgiven that little. But if a person has sinned greatly, then if they Repent they will also be forgive greatly. The implication is that the one who has been forgiven more has been granted more Grace than the one that has been forgiven less. In Romans 6, Paul addresses a hypothetical scenario - "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?" (Romans 6:1), but in the very next verse contrasts this with the stern statement, "BY NO MEANS". He then goes on to say that if a person has turned away from sin to live for God, how can they continue to willfully sin - it is a contradiction in who they are as Christians. You can't continue to live in slavery to sin if you have been freed from that slavery. You are either bound by sin, or bound by Grace. *though as an aside, that is not to say that Christians are sinless when they turn to Christ. It just means they strive to avoid sin*

If a person willingly sins, thinking they can do what they like and they will be forgiven, they have completely missed the point of Jesus' teachings. Accepting Christ's gift of salvation is more than words. It takes action. It is true we are saved through Faith alone, but that Faith must be accompanied by action, or else it is nothing.

On the other side of the coin, though - if a person commits all sorts of crimes and evils, and then realises they have done wrong and earnestly and honestly repent of those crimes (by "repent" that does not just mean saying sorry), then God will indeed forgive them and they will be in heaven.

This is an extremely simplified explanation of salvation. I could write an essay on this and not even scratch the surface. Whether you know it or not, this is an altogether complex question. To simplify to the basics though - no, you cannot just do whatever you want and have a free pass to heaven. But yes, if you did, and then somehow repented (again, I ask that you research what the term "repent" actually means before taking the popular view of it as being simply to "say sorry") then you would be forgiven.

I hope this makes some semblance of sense. If it does not, feel free to ask my any questions and I will try and clarify my comments and add detail them wherever you are having issue.

All the best

I agree with the majority of points 1-6. Points 3 and 4 are in question, and the rest I agree with totally. Point 3 states that if you only have 1 forgiven sin you will probably go to hell. I'm not certain if there is some context to this point that I'm missing, but God won't forgive some sins but not others. Either all will be forgiven, or none will be. There is no "one sin will be forgiven, but not another" (though then we have the issue of the "unforgiveable sin" - blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - which is a different discussion, I think). Point 4 I totally reject. You write One can only have their sins forgiven by going to church and praying to jesus. Neither is ture. Going to Church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you a ferrari. Praying to Jesus does no good if your heart is not in it.

I do believe all sins are equal in God's eyes. By societal standards there are differences, and by my own moralistic standards there are differences (eg, I will be outraged by a pedophile, but only smirk at someone who's caught out in a lie). But God sees them all as equal.

This is of course just the Christian perspective to consider. All the best,

I must say that if God sees rape, murder and paedophile acts as on par with a lie, he is rather peculiar.

Let me try to clarify my meaning:

~ Sin = disobedience to God
~ God is perfect and will not accept sin. Therefore,
~ Disobedience to God = separation from God

Even the smallest sin we do, no matter what it is, separates us from God, and the only way to restore that separation is through Jesus. In this sense, murder, rape, pedophilia and lying are indeed on the same level.

Additionally, if we look at the Sermon given by Jesus in Matthew 5-7, there are clar guidelines about how the law refers to us. The Law says "Do not murder", but Jesus says that if you have ever been angry with your brother, you have alread committed murder in your heart. Thus the thought of anger towards your brohter (not literal brother, I do not think) then you have committed murder in your heart.

On a human level, there are degrees of sin. someone who tells a lie is not treated as harshly as one who rapes another person. One who bears anger towards their brother is not treated the same as one who has murdered said brother. On a spiritual perspective, all sin is sin, regardless. Sin represents rejection of God, and we all reject God. Which is why, from a Christian perspective, we all need the forgiveness taht jesus has willingly offered. But (and to bring this back to the original question of the thread) Jesus does forgive those who come to him with true repentence in their hearts and accepts his death as sufficient for their sins.

All the best,

To me it seems like this is a way of casting a wide net to catch everybody if you will. Even a hypothetical person who has lived an exemplary life has 'sinned' in some small, ephemeral way and therefore needs forgiveness/God as well.

Another way of us all being sinners, even prior to sinning we are sinners.

Perhaps, but from the Christian point of view, we are all sinners. The fact that not all people believe this is why they reject Christianity. It's not an easy thing to hear to be said that you aren't good enough on your own. It is in many ways human nature to think of ourselves as good enough if God exists.. If your path leads you to believe that you are right as is, then I wish you the best in your path. I am just here to try and offer an alternative poitn of view to that belief you have. All the best,

Just to sidetrack a little ... Does the whole idea of an omnipotent, omniscient deity having to die for our sins sound even remotely sensible?! I asked this during my deconversion. The more I poured over it, the more it made all the sense--and absolutely no sense!--in the world ...!

Why would God come to earth to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to save His own creation from Himself?!

MK,

Sean

Praise the Lord, we Agree on something mate.

Absolutely right, its makes no sense does it. Infact christianity is built on this foundation that god died for our sins to protect us from him. Such a foolish notion, yet so many believe in this illogical concept. Its 100% nonsense, applied to any other aspects of life etc, and people would laugh at such concepts.

Thats why there is connfession once a week every Saturday, that was what you did the last two night at the club are forgotten...

UHHHHHHHHHHHHH .... THUNK ...! Seanie falls out of his chair in shock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen brother!!!!!!

MK,

Sean

Just off the top of my head -- without quoting proof here --
"Yes", according to the Laws God the Creator of Man (according to the Bible), Jesus was fore-ordained before creation of Mankind to reconcile Mankind to God. How? By paying in blood .. the immutable death penalty for sin.

The question of "why" Jesus-as-God had to die for the sins of all Mankind is in the pages of the Bible.

Those who do not accept the Bible as God's Law -- please delete the rest of this post.


According to Scriptures:
* Sin (of any kind) earns the death penalty. Therefore all Mankind earned death penalty.
* All Mankind is under the death penalty because of each individual's sins.
* The penalty of death (the SECOND death) is irrevocable under God's Law.

God predetermined "salvation" -- being saved from second death.

Jesus, "being God-in-human-flesh" was worthy to offer Himself "as ransom" for Mankind, and took upon Himself the death penalty.

Result?
That's up to each individual, now:
Everyone who willingly accepts that Jesus paid the death penalty on their behalf, may now claim the blood of Jesus as payment for their own sin. Problem is -- these people now must then live accordingly -- by God's Laws; if they "willfully choose to sin", then that's the end of them -- no more can they be saved by the blood of Jesus. ~~~ They will, according to God ~~~ pay the penalty of the second, and eternal, death.

OK ... end of my "fire and brimstone" rant.
Karlis

Freewill, God loves them unconditionally, If the spirit child in question does not love God or want to be in Father's love light That's ok.

Father and Mother don't force their love on anyone, Its not Love if its forced.

After the spirit Judges himself, He will also punish himself.
God does not do it.

If Father did judge you, then one could blame God for all that a spirit did on Earth, Making God out to be a Monster.

Which is what many religions do.

That's ok too though because thats not how things really are.

Love Omnaka

Jesus died to pay the consequences of our sins. However, it's like if you had dinner at a restaurant and someone offered to pay the price for your dinner. If you choose not to accept having someone else pay for your dinner, then you would still pay for it yourself.

Additionally, as someone who has acknowledged my sin, and the impact of my sin on my life, the lives of others and as the cause of the my permanent separation from God, I can tell you that the gratitude you feel once you've been cleared of that debt is so deep and so clean that you do not want to take advantage of it, you want to live a life worthy of having someone die for you.

That's a very nice and precise way of explaining it, Iams. Although, I was under the impression that Jesus died for everyone's sins wether they wanted it or not. Like, if Jesus paid for everyone's dinners in advance, wether one approves of it or not. But maybe I'm wrong in assuming that?

Though I do not believe in this concept that Jesus, peace be upon him, had to die for our sins, I think it can also mean this. Those who wrote the Bible, telling the story of his death could be speaking of themselves and generations past. Since it was those generations that supposedly put him on the cross.

But, say that theory is wrong. Even if Jesus did die for everyones sins, I think it would be pretty crappy just to dismiss his death as a reason for us to go transgress and be sinful without regrets. Following the rules and guidelines seems like it could be the "least" we could do since he supposedly gave his life up for us.

Personally I think most people are right as is.

I am able to put things in perspective and not dichotomise my behaviour into sinful/pious. Personally I don't think it is helpful for society if people don't have perspective on their behaviour - the equal weighting seems to do just that.



Yeah, that is why we are both here, to offer alternative views lol.

Some people have chosen to take the scriptures as to mean that, but I think that view ignores large chunks of the Bible that speak of being saved through Faith. Just a few passages that spring to mind:

* For it is by Grace you have been saved through Faith - Ephesians 2:8
* He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. - 1 John 5:12
* The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:14-15

I do like IamsSon's example he gave though. I think I misunderstood what you were asking earlier. I took the question to refer to believers doing whatever they wanted, whereas you were looking at the view of all people being saved. Which, as I think the Bible passages above demonstrate, is not so.

Just a few thoughts to consider

Even i asked the same question to my father... why should i worry about anything... if i have option like this.. why should i think about him at the last moment of my life.
Why should i waste my time and energy for no reason... if i have a beautifull option like this in my end of my life.

Father said, yes you can do that.. that is a very simple technic.. very well you can choose that method... but i am afraid that you may not.. then to make me understand
he shown me simple hand magic technic, which even a simple child can understand and i tried to reproduce or repeat the same style which he did.. but i am unable to do that.
Even though the technic was simple... i was unable to do that in that moment.

Then he explained even if the technic was simple we may not able to do that without a pratice and hardwork.. if you not able to perform that with your mind easily and effortlessly,
then how may think to attain this simple technic at the time of sudden fear or sudden death.. death is not going to come as we think..

Yes then i realised what he said is true and logic..

Good morning K. I used to believe the exact same thing. But my question is... Does this whole scenario make any sense whatsoever? Why would an all-powerful deity have to go to such dramatics for the forgiveness of sins? Why must it be blood? Why not simply ask for forgiveness?! This simply makes no sense to me -- at least anymore.

Mk,

Sean

From my earlier post




The interpretation of Jesus as the sacrificed victim is a human creation. It was shaped in a first-century world by the disciples of Jesus, who drew on their Jewish liturgical symbols as a way the Crucifixion might be understood. They borrowed this understanding directly from the Jewish Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, in which an innocent lamb was slaughtered to pay the price for the sins of the people. The sinful people then had the cleansing blood of that sacrificial lamb sprinkled on them.

Christians would argue that the Passover Sacrifice, where the blood of the Lamb was shed to save the people of God, was a herald of the coming of Jesus. The Passover Lamb, which saved the Israelites from the Angel of Death, was but a taste of the true Passover Lamb which would be sacrificed, and all who put the blood of the Lamb over their spiritual doorways would be saved from the spiritual Angel of Death. Rather than people drawing on Jewish symbolism to interpret the event, the Jewish symbolism was a foretelling of the event.

Obviously not everyone will agree, but it makes sense to me Just a thought,

jesus didnt die for our sins in the literal sense as stated above. he lived as an example of love and died the same way. he didnt come here to die for us he came to show us how to love. it simply doesnt make sense that we are now 'off the hook' because jesus was crucified. interpreting the words to mean this is getting a little too trivial. the word sin is too eeary as well. there are acts that stem from love and acts that dont. and god will not punish you. ever. you will realise when you die how you agreed to live this life and view your experiences as a student. then you will know what you learned and what you didnt. then go live another life maybe here, maybe on another planet or another dimension to experience the things you didnt learn from. hell is only a state of mind.

............<<>> Sins against (God) causes a (Spiritual Death). What is a Spiritual Death? It is simply the separation of man from God because of sin. "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" (Isa.59:2). "And you hath he quickened [made alive, resurrected] who were dead in trespasses and sins...even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:1-10).

Adam's penalty was death the day he sinned. this could not refer to physical death, for he lived 930 years after that day. It could only refer to spiritual and eternal death because of being cut off from God by sin. Adam's soul lost life the day he sinned. He did not lose natural life that day or his soul would have ceased to function. Man's natural life exists of itself separate and apart from God, for sinners continue to exist separate from God. Spiritual and eternal life cannot be given until man is resurrected from death in trespasses and sins and united to God (1 Cor.6:17; Rom.8:9-16; Eph.2).

Resurrection from spiritual death In (Eph.2) we are told of being quickened and raised up from death in trespasses and sins. The Greek word for [quickened] is [zoopoieo] and means to resurrect, made alive, and quicken. It is translated [made alive] 1 Cor.15:22, referring to the physical resurrection of all men. It is translated [give life] in 2 Cor.3:6; Gal.3:21 and [quicken] in John.5:21; 6:63; Rom.4:16; 8:11; 1 Cor.15:36,45; 1Tim.6:13; 1 Pet.3:18. Sinners are all considered spiritually dead even while they are physically alive. (Eph.2:1-10; Col.2:12-13; 1 Tim.5:6; Jude.12). When they are saved from sin and united to God again they are spiritually resurrected to walk in newness of life.................Joey.

End the end he saved us from what his father created you can not change that fact.

Good questions, sean.

I guess the difference in how we react to them has to do with the fact that I choose to accept God's nature: omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, just, holy, merciful, and loving as true and you don't. Why did God choose to do it the way He did? Why does sin have to be paid for with death? Why is it not possible to simply ask for forgiveness?

From my standpoint I realize that I don't know the answer to these questions. The answers provided in Scripture do not really explain because Scripture starts the assumption that this must be so. But considering all of what we know of God's nature, I am satisfied to believe that God has a reason, that His omniscience, His intimate knowledge of who "man" is and of what "eternity" holds , indicates to Him this is the best way to do it, in order that His overall purpose will be fulfilled.

Kudos to the bold part, thats the most honest answer anyone can give with regards to God.

I'm also impressed by you're statement about being satisfied with believing that God has a reason. I personally do not think (and brace yourselves for a moment, I'm going to look at this from my old Catholic perspective)... -puts Catholic glasses on-

Ahem, I personally do not think that it is possible for human beings to understand God in that sense. Since, theologically speaking, we understand that God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect, how are we actually supposed to understand God? If God is the highest order of being, the perfect thing, how are we, with our finite intellectual capacity, supposed to understand a being that is infinitely powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, and morally perfect? I don't think it would be possible to understand the motives of a creature that is supposed to be perfect in every aspect of its nature, especially when we ourselves are creatures who are finite in all our qualities.

-takes Catholic glasses off-

Just chiming in, but if God is perfect, then wouldn't his creations be perfect as well? :\ By creating us (imperfections), doesn't that kind of belie the whole being of God? :\ I mean, don't get me wrong, I want to believe in God, a God, but everything about it is just so contradictory. XP I feel like I'm being blasphemous, and I don't mean to be.

I agree, it is impossible for us to know or understand God completely, but that doesn't mean we can't know or understand Him at all. An omnipotent being, by definition would have the power to make Himself understood by His creation, to whatever level He deems it necessary to be understood.


First of all, wouldn't an omnipotent being, by definition, have the ability to create anything in any way He wanted? Why would He only be able to create perfect things? Why would He have to?

Having said that, I think "perfect" requires purpose. If I make a sphere which is perfectly round, with a surface which is absolutely flawless, and is perfectly balanced, can I play regulation baseball with it? No? Why not? Uhmm, because regulation baseball requires a ball made to certain specifications which my perfect sphere does not meet. So, is God's creation perfect? Given that God is omniscient and omnipotent, then the perceived imperfections are there because they make Creation perfect to meet God's purpose.

Don't worry about it. I was looking at the idea from a Christian perspective, and I'm not a Christian. I used to be, but as of right now I am a Deist.

............<<>> Gen.6:1-8)- verse-5- Then the Lord saw the wickedness of (Man) was great in the earth, and that every intent of he thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. verse-6- And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in his heart. That sounds like God gave Freewill to Men to choose over good or evil. verse-8- But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Just as We Christian also find grace in the eyes of the Lord.........Joey.