In this example God would be the judge who dispenses justice as it is written. I see your example but it does not exemplify God because God does not beat no one up. He makes a law that is there for all to follow and if some choose not to there is consequences. I am not saying that everyone has to believe in God or His law but if you want to discuss His nature as presented within the Bible He is not at all as your example portrays.

When God states He is a jealous God in Exodus 20:5 the worse used is qanna' which meaning is 'jealous (of God)' and is used only 5 times in the Bible and each time it is in reference to God alone. It is not the same type of jealousy as stated in Numbers 5:14 which is the spirit of jealousy which is qin'ah or how we are jealous over others which is qana' (one 'n') which is a jealous anger.

the root of jealousy is insecurity. fear.

The Theory of Jealousy Management
So, how do you handle this jealousy thing?, by Franklin Veaux

Nobody is immune to jealousy, of course. It's like being immune to fear or hunger or anger. Some people are naturally more jealous than others, of course, but anybody can feel jealous. Jealousy, like fear or hunger, is just a feeling.

But jealousy isn't really a response to seeing your partner with someone else. It's a response to your own feelings; it says more about your own security or insecurity than it does about the actions of your partner.

Jealousy is most common when somebody feels insecure, mistreated, threatened, or vulnerable in a relationship. If you feel secure in a relationship, you don't get jealous. Jealousy is not the problem; jealousy is the SYMPTOM of the problem. Address the insecurity or the things underlying the feelings of vulnerability, and you address the jealousy. So the trick to making a poly relationship work is to make everyone involved feel secure, valued, and loved.

A poly relationship depends much more than a traditional relationship on mutual security and trust. Even the smallest amount of insecurity in a poly relationship can quickly be magnified to the point where it can be lethal to the relationship.

http://polycat.org/node/13

not something a perfect God would feel - not at all.

My whole point to him was that you can not punish someone for making a choice after you give them an option. To me thats what God is doing he's is giving everyone a choice BUT in the end he's going to punish those who have made the wrong choice. In the this world you people look down on such things.

This is exactly the contradiction that I think of all the time. You put it perfectly. ;P

And I always hear of answers from different religions, that everything has a reason. God knows all. There's a rhyme and reason for everything. It's for the best, etc. And it always comes back to 'God has a plan'. Well... if that's the case, then where, truly, is our free will? If God is doing things for the best of us, supposedly ;P, then how is our free will determining our fate, if God has already decided it? And if, like you said, God does know all, then he already knows who is going to hell, and who is going to be saved. So what, exactly, is the point of us being here? ...If all of that is true, of course. ;P

And if we truly do have free will, then it's up to God to decide if he wants to forgive us of our sins or not. Sacrifice of His only son or not, or us asking for forgiveness or not. I've forgiven people that have wronged me without them even asking for it. I do it to calm my own heart. And I would like to believe that God would do the same. He has ultimate control over what He decides to do.

Tis this idea that led me to cease believing Paul. Paul is an embarassment to christianity.

'Us people' are taught not to look down or to judge others. Those who do so ignore that part of the Bible. It is true we believe God gives us a choice to be good or not. Maybe you see it as wrong that we are even given that choice knowing if we do wrong we will be punished for that. I see that as free will and responsibility that comes with free will and knowing every choice we make has consequences.



Sure we can try and tempt God but He will not be tempted and we can say God is tempting us but He does not tempt us according to the Bible.

Like I've said in the past on here in the past. If God loves his creation so much why send them to hell for something as simple as choice?
No earthly parent would do such a thing again I've stated this before perhaps human are capeable of more love then God is.


BTW this is a great thread!

Why would perfection need emotions at all? Emotions rely on change in internal/external influences, new knowledge, surprises, and recalibration of what you know. If he is omniscient, omnipotent, unchanging and impassable why does he have emotions at all? How can he be flummoxed by our behaviour – has his creation outwitted him? Does he regret giving us free will I wonder

Why does he even want things - this implies that he is lacking.

If he does regret giving us freewill then I think that would mean he goofed would it not?

Because He did not make us to be mindless robots. Would you want a wife who does not choose to be married to you? Would you want a wife without the ability to make that choice? Would you want a wife forced like a robot to love you? Does it not mean much more that a choice was made?

Those who do not choose God will be separated from Him. It is that simple. If you do not believe in God of the Bible then should you even worry about this? If you do then a choice must be made. Those of us who believe in Him know we have that choice and we thank you for caring about us and looking our for our best interest but most of us disagree with your assessment that God is wrong to give us that choice. Do you believe in God? Or are you just arguing for arguments sake on the nature of the God of the Bible? Maybe you wish to convince some of us we should not follow Him to save us from what you perceive might be the wrong path?

Well that is fine some Christians maybe play that game with you as well but just know some of us have no need to use words and logic to convince you or anyone of God. Most should know when I speak about God in these matters it is not to convince anyone but just to state a view. If in the process a weak person who maybe has doubt from these questions poses then has a deeper understanding from God in the view presented that is good. As far as hoping someone who despises our God will change their mind haha I do not think that is happening so I will not even try it.

Norwood, even a very young child would very quicly recognize the absurdity in such conditions...yes Son is married...

I dont' think your example was too harsh as far as the actions of the diety of the bible goes it was tame. IMO of course.... you are corect by modern standards one who behaves as the god of the bible would be on death row....

You use perfection as if perfection is something objective. Use objective words like omnipotent. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. You make it sound like an emotional God is less weak for having emotion. At the most pure level of God's being he has no emotion. However, at our level of understanding of Him, he does have emotion.

Aw come on Clovis! The free will thing was a joke - you know I don't even believe in free will. We are just delving into the nature of God as presented by his followers, and following the logical implications of what is said.

Where discussion and debate crosses the line into convincing or otherwise in sometimes in the eye of the beholder.




Overall well said

But so the explanation for him having emotions is that this is how humans perceive him but it is not his essential nature? Our limitation in a way but not his?

I wouldn't even call it a limitation. It's merely a difference of perspective. God is completely self-sufficient and completely and totally aware of himself and everything. We on the other hand are not completely and totally self-sufficient. Thus, our existence is not as complete an existence as his. God's mind is something we couldn't hope to understand. He has a perspective we can't have because we are limited in our options as to what we can conceive of. We are bound by experiences and other such things which form our perspectives and thus we cannot fully understand God. If we were free of these things we would see things his way, but if we saw things his way we would be him.

If we understood God totally and understood his thoughts totally, we would lose our perception of ourselves. We would cease to exist in our own minds because in reality (compared to God) we do not exist.

I don't think anyone is trying to convice anyone here that thier belifes are wrong. If one of my post have come across that way I'm sorry, I have stated that these are my personal views. At the end of the day we all log off the fourm & go about beliving in whatever we believe, no harm no foul.

Oops sorry did not see you had posted the norwood again. My post was in response to his and I have edited appropriately to reflect that. As far as what you have mentioned for emotions:l I want to say is that God does not have them as we do. I do believe His ways are not our ways. I think there is perfect emotion in Him and imperfect emotions within us. We are ruled by emotion at times, some use logic I guess, or a balance of both. As far as God it is quite complex and to compile every biblical piece of evidence where He displays emotions as we understand them would be quite an undertaking, then to explain them would be more so, and admittedly I am unsuitable for such a task.

My honest response is I do not understand God in that regard but I do in other ways which makes me quite confident that the path is right for me.

I think if we all did that we would have less wacky ideas on this forum. Sometimes I am thinking *Belle don't even try to get into that debate and explain cause you don't really know what you are talking about*

I definitely agree with you on your first point there. ;P There's no point in creating something that's automated to feel/act/think a certain way. It just wouldn't mean anything overall. I think the point that I was trying to make though, is that if God does love us unconditionally, then even if we were to shun him (which I'm definitely not trying to do, just trying to understand things a bit better, since I feel kind of doubtful and lost, unfortunately), then he would love us anyway, even if we didn't love him back. And not send any of us to hell. ;P I would like to believe that, anyway.

I don't know what is the right or wrong path. And I'm definitely not arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm sorry if I might have given that impression. That definitely was not my intention. ;P I guess I am just trying to understand the God of the Bible a bit more. I want to believe in a God, but with all of these mixed feelings, I feel afraid that the God of the Bible is a being that I can't really seem to understand fully and feel truly devoted to. I just... I guess I just don't want to believe in a God that will condemn anyone to hell for all eternity. But again in my other post, maybe that's just because I'm naive and don't really understand what can really lie in the human heart, whereas God will be fully capable of understanding and knowing. So... I guess believing in God really is that, just believing in Him with all your heart and not even questioning things that might contradict Him. ...Maybe those contradictions are there in the first place to make people doubt Him, hm? ;P That way God can know who's truly faifthful and who's not?

But anyways, I'm really sorry if I might have come off with the wrong impression. I just am genuinely curious about all of these beliefs, and want to believe in God myself.

As we understand it God does not condemn no one to Hell. We do that ourselves. He also made Hell for the devil and his angels.



If we read the whole passage we can see those who go into the kingdom are the ones who are good to others and those who are not good to others will not go. That choice is ours through and through.

Hell itself may not even be what we imagine it to be. There are several different words for it in the Greek as mentioned in the Bible.

The thing is norwood, that is not at all like what God has done with man. God doesn't give man options for him to choose from. God gives man the ability to choose and tells him, "If you choose to act from self-interest, you will sever yourself from everyone and be left to your own devices (since you want to be interested in self), but your own devices are not enough to keep you eternally alive. If you choose to act from selfless love you will be doing what I created you to do and will remain linked to me and live eternally. Since I know you will make choose to act out of self-interest, and I know you can't do anything to correct that, so I will provide another way to reconnect."

I know you don't want to see it that way, but if you read the Bible, that is the message written throughout the book. God gave man the ability to choose, told man what the consequences would be if he decided to choose incorrectly and man still chose incorrectly, but God knew man would choose selfishly, so He provided a way back, a way which would leave no doubt in man's mind how real the life and death nature of his choices are.

No, God does not need the validation of His Creation. Think about it, He created angelic beings whose only purpose is to float around Him praising Him, so obviously He does not NEED man to worship Him. Man is the one who NEEDS to worship his Creator, it's good for man because it helps man realize who he is in relation to His Creator.

That seems rather... egotistical, doesn't it? Why can't humans be proud creatures if God can have entire flocks of angels just to praise him? Sure, he's "higher" than us, supposedly, but he should practice what he preaches to set a good example for his creations. To make a rule for that which you create and not follow it yourself is egotistical and pointless.

The happiness is within you... no one else can bring you happiness.. A rich man always be sad and it also possible a poor man always be happy within his thought.

Everything lies\illusion in their mind.. and how they vision the things. So the kingdom is in you to realise.

Why would God come to earth, just to show us a new life or to inspire us with his thought and to learn how to lead life..
So many hero's or legend came to this world and shown us how to live or lead life.. I admire jesus story, it says about love..
buddha and Gandhiji's about ahimsa etc.. just take any ONE principle and try to follow that..
If Jesus died because of your sin, then who love him avoid sin... who hate him do more sin lol

We have a freewill to drink posion and end this life.. ofcourse this is our life.. no one owns
any rights for our life.. Its my life, then why Suicide is illegal. If you go to court and stand in front of judge
why he punish you.

Even i am suprised.. we have some inbuilt principle in our mind... which guide you to do and don't.. we try to go
ahead and do something which our mind say Don't.. the moment we are already set up our mind to face the conciquence.

Each action have its own reaction.. In those reaction our freewill won't work.. because already we preplaned it and
we preplaned to face that also.. so the choice is already taken long back us.. if we don't have a free will then we
just live our life like a slave or a happy child (sadn\happy)

In your last post you said it was ok to give people a choice & if they didn't choice what ther other person wanted it was ok to punish them. I said I disagree & I will always disagree. Try my little experment & see what happens. In the real world you can't do it You see things your way & I see them another way again it's not right or wrong we just have different ways of seeing them is all.





No, God does not need the validation of His Creation. Think about it, He created angelic beings whose only purpose is to float around Him praising Him, so obviously He does not NEED man to worship Him. Man is the one who NEEDS to worship his Creator, it's good for man because it helps man realize who he is in relation to His Creator.



Then why did God create us for? When someone creates something there is a reason behind it. Boredom, to suit a need of some sort, Etc. There are millions of people who live without a belief in any God so where is thier need? God just decide one day out of the blue to create us? I'm sorry that school of thought might work for some but not me.

IMHO

1) The choice is the divine law and even non-believers have that law written on their hearts and their conscience will excuse or accuse them. It is not what is for dinner lol

2) God does not need man to worship Him. But in his plan we can choose to be good or not. Those who are not have no place with Him.

3) I have no answer to why God created us. I do not know to be honest.

.............<<>> Just like people to pick out a little scripture here and a little scripture there. Did you study the whole chapter. On what God was speaking about. Jesus was full of peace. And Cyrus was full of calamity/evil but God used Him to set his people free. If God will use a jackass to speak to a King and I am sure you know where this scripture is at. He will use anyone to get His point across. And His will done.

Here is a little back ground on the sinner Cyrus that God used too free His people. Isaiah prophesied the coming of Cyrus, first king of the Persian Empire, to deliver the Jews from their Babylonian Exile (Isa.44:28; 45:1). A powerful ruler, Cyrus united the Medes and the Persian to conquer Babylon, Assyria, and Lydia. He then permitted the exiles within these conquered lands to return to their homes. It was Cyrus who ordered the rebuilding of the temple at Jerusalem. He died in 530 B.C. and was entombed at Pasargadae, Persia in a vault built in limestone blocks tied together by iron clamps.

(Judah Will Be Restored)- (Isa.44:24-28)- verse-28- Who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, And he shall perform all My pleasure, Saying to Jerusalem, "You shall be built," And to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid."
(The one from the east)-(Isa.41:2-3)- A reference to Cyrus, the successful Persian conqueror who would decree the release of Judah from captivity. God is behind his success. (By the way...his feet): A master statesman, Cyrus won many victories through diplomacy, never having to travel personally to any areas of war.

(Isa.45:1-13)- Isaiah continues with Cyrus.- see notes above (Isa.41:2-3). Cyrus is said to be anointed in the sense that God chose him for a special mission. God, through Isaiah, called Cyrus (By Name) 100 years before his time to prove to the Persian king that He, Yahweh, was the only true (GOD). Note: the confession of Cyrus in (Ezra.1:1-11). (The End of the Babylonian Captivity)- verse-3- Who is among you of all His people? May his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel (He is God), which is in Jerusalem. Josephus says that Cyrus released Israel when he was shown the prophecy of Is.45. Some modern scholars reject Isaiah's authorship of this part of the book on the grounds that prediction of Cyrus by name would be impossibility. Those who believe in the supernatural character of prophecy and the divine inspiration of the Scriptures have no problem with this or other prophetic predictions.

Here is another scripture with the word (Calamity/evil) in it.
(Proverbs.6:12-19) [The Wicked Man]-verse-12- A worthless person, a wicked man, Walks with a perverse mouth. verse-13- He winks with his eyes, He shuffles his feet, He points with his fingers. verse-14- Perversity is in his heart, He devises evil continually, He sows discord. verse-15- Therefore his (Calamity) shall come suddenly; Suddenly he shall be broken without remedy. verse-16- These six thing the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abominations to Him. verse-17- A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood. verse-18- A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil. verse-19- A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

So as you see one must read all the Word of God not just parts. To get its true meaning....................Joey

But yet.........Gen.6:1-8)- verse-5- Then the Lord saw the wickedness of (Man) was great in the earth, and that every intent of he thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. verse-6- And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in his heart.


Another double standard is it not?


BTW Why do I get the feeling from you that it's ok to take a verse like Exodus 22:18 out of context & which is the wrong translation? Something tells me you have no problem with a passage like that.

The word for 'sorry' in Genesis 6:6 is nacham. It is not what we exactly what we consider 'sorry' as it means in modern English. Other examples of where nacham is used are shown in bold.

and yet --

If our actions and nature are determined by God, how can god blame us for those actions? The Biblical text runs thusly:

"16It does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" "

Romans 9:16-19 [NIV]

And that is the clincher; the ultimate question. Paul has asked "Is God unjust?" for its denial of free will, for its disregard for what our choices and intentions are. Paul now has a mortal present that same question. His answer is a shocker:

"20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[Isaiah 29:16, 45:9] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Romans 9:20-21 [NIV]

The answer is: Tough! God is unjust, simply because it can be! There is no justification, God makes some people "for noble use", chosen and predestined to do good works 'which God prepared in advance' 'according to his purpose'.

WHy not? In society, you have the choice to obey the law or to not obey the law. You have the choice to speed when you drive to work, or you have the choice to go by the speed limit. Whatever choice you make, there are consequences. You have the option of getting a gun and robbing a bank, or you have the option of finding a legal way to get money. Either way, there are consequences. Would you argue that it was unfair that society gave you a choice? Perhaps you should try and blame the gun company for selling you the gun that you used in the robbery. Or maybe you should blame the government for not paying you enough. Or blame inflation for pushing prices too high. Blame blame blame. It's the Blame Game. No one wants to take responsibility anymore. Fall over in a public park, and you sue the government for not keeping the roads neat enough. Never blame yourself for not watching where you're going. Litigation. Blame someone else. Other person's responsibility. Not responsible for your own choices.

Sorry, I'm ranting a little. My point is that we all make choices in life, and they all have consequences, some good, some bad, some neither. That's life.

Calvinist make the same argument for their doctrine of predestination. But it is easy to take a small selection and not truly take in all that is being said.



Issac prayed for Rebekah to have children for she was barren. The Lord provided a miracle not because 'of works' that is to say because Issac was good or just because he wanted it but because through Rebekah God's plan would continue. The part of the plan was that Rebekah is one of the four matriarchs of the Jewish people. Without her many would not have been born that needed to be born for His plan of creating a nation to know Him as a vessel until the time was right for all the world to know Him.



Now this verse comes into context. It is not saying we do not have free will. It is saying that God will have mercy and compassion on us because of God's mercy. This ties in to the whole we are saved because of faith and not works. Even so if one digs deeper faith will bring about works. But works alone without faith is just going through the motions.



This has nothing to do with free will either. This must be taken into context with Exodus 9. This is about God's national strategy throughout the ages. Just as He allowed Rome to conquer as they did and build the first extensive road system so later not only would the early Christians use the same roads to spread the word, which would have been impossible before, but also since Rome conquered so many peoples that many of them lost their faith in their pagan deities who did not protect them from Rome and were more open to accepting Christ.

.

As we an see in Exodus when God was telling Pharaoh that the purpose of raising him up was part of His plan to have His name proclaimed in all the earth. Letting the Israelites go was a major event during that era to let others know the God of the Israelites was not a parlor magician that simply turned staffs into snakes.



Again nothing to do with us not having a lack of free will. Compare 'for who can resist his will' to these two other scriptures and we can see it is about God's sovereign choice aka His national strategy.





Again nothing about personal free will not existing here either. 'Why have you made me like this?' is not a valid question to ask according to this scripture. This has nothing to do about if we make our own choices or not. Instead it is about us claiming that God did not make us and claiming He has no understanding but that we have more than Him. 'Why have you made me like this?' is not to be taken as 'Oh God made me a sinner so I will keep on sinning' instead it is about striving with God and having contention against Him.







The choice to be an honorable vessel is up to us ultimately. Sure God can intervene with free will now and then as He did with Jonah. As He did by hardening Pharaoh's heart. This does not take away our free will overall not in the least.

Sorry to jump a few pages back to this. I know that others have answered it already (thank you Clovis), so I won't detail too much with the explanation of the verse. But in short, there is a contrast between light and dark (first section of 45:7), and peace and..... the opposite of peace. The word translated as evil has connotations of "calamity" or "disaster". Thus God creates peace and disaster both.

That said, and the reason I'm bringing this post forward, is to say that despite the fact I disagree with the interpretation of this verse, I do not disagree with the overall sentiment. God did create evil. However, not directly. He created evil on the basis of who he is. By creating good ("good" being defined as what God wants us to do) there is naturally an opposite. God did not create evil in the sense that he sat down and said, "right, here's the trees, the rabbits, the flowers, the subwoofer's..... ooh, I forgot the evil, gotta put that in somewhere", but he did create the good which as a byproduct produced the opposite.

All the best, norwood

Might I add the law is also important in and of itself. In the case of nations ideally the law is to protect society at large and create good citizens. In the case of God the law is to protect us as individuals and allow us to become citizens of His Kingdom. If one breaks the national law they are penalized including banishment and imprisonment. If one breaks God's law they are also penalized including banishment from His Kingdom. Shall we allow criminals to enjoy all that society has to offer? How will God then allow the breakers of the law to enjoy being in His presence?

As an aside to this discussion concerning Romans 9, I must side with Lt Ripley on this one. Romans 9 is, imo, one of the single clearest arguments against the existence of free will. It says that God chose some before they had done good or bad (Jacob over Esau), indeed while they were still in the womb, and then later hypothesizes why God would create some destined for destruction, and the conclusion is that it was done to show the mercy of God to those who were prepared for salvation. With some not being saved, those who are saved are much more appreciative of the gift of life that God has given them.

But to Lt Ripley now, I do not think this makes God unjust. It shows that God has a plan and that God is in complete control of all that happens, but it does not show injustice. You perhaps may consider it unjust if you consider "hell" to be a place of torment, or perhaps even of separation. But personally, I see it as neither of these. I see "hell" as a complete and utter second death (in the same type of way that an atheist sees death as the end of all life, becoming wormfood, so to speak). As such, those who are "prepred for destruction" (note that Romans 9 does not say "prepared for eternal punishment/eternal separation") live this life, and then become no more, the equivalent of wormfood. No life, no thought, no feeling, no existence. While those who have been granted salvation gain eternal life and know the joy that they have received.

However, this is not to say that we don't have the perception of choice. On this Earth, here and now, I have choices to make. And each of those choices has a consequence. Therefore, I am unable to use the "God made me do it" excuse. Though it may be predestined, what happens in the here and now feels like choice. To use an example, if I see a baby crawling down a path and towards a busy intersection, I could CHOOSE to sit there and watch it clamber onto the gutter and get squished. Or I could CHOOSE to go and pick it up and keep it from harm. Whatever action I choose will have been predetermined, but would not acting and watching that kid die make me feel any better thinking "Oh well, it was predestined to happen that way"? Of course not - it would haunt me all the days of my life if it were to happen and I stood by and did nothing. The perception of choice is almost as powerful as actual choice. It's what has been coined by some theologians as "Real Will", as opposed to "Free will".

That said, I do acknowledge the possibility that on a spiritual level, free will and predestination can co-exist. I am not adverse to the possibility that free will exists somehow. But from the text of Romans 9, I see no other choice but predestination.

Just a few thoughts to consider

Aye, well I see Romans as all being about God's sovereign choice which is His strategy for the nations to bring about His plan.

I do agree with you though free will and destiny coexist. 'Free Will' and 'Real Will' well that is something to consider indeed.

As my final thought:

I disagree because Christ is all and in all, all is God and so in the end nothing really matters. The bible contradicts itself on many things. One in the end is always forced to come to their own personal interpretation.

I disagree the Bible is pretty clear if we drop our own theories and try to box the Bible into them. If we take it all into account there are no contradictions. Even if someone believes there are they are simply not taking it into all into context.

There are some parts harder to explain that I cannot find clear answers too. But on the concept of everyone having the Spirit of God within or they would die without it is obvious that is not the case and that many do not have the Spirit of God within. Sure we should not impress our beliefs on others so you can believe that if you want but that is not what the Bible clearly states repeatedly. But it is nice to know your view on this is based on personal interpretation after ignoring many other parts of it.

Maybe this verse does not apply since we are not dealing with prophecy but:



And this is a prophecy and if one reads all of Joel 2 they will understand that 'all flesh' is not for everyone in the world but just God's people. All the world is not going to prophesy or dream dreams or have visions concerning God just His people will. In light of the Spirit of God not being there for the Israelite before Jesus came, that it is now available for all the world thus sacrifices are no longer needed for atonement of sin, and Jesus said He had to go so He would send another helper, Himself, in the form of the Spirit it makes perfect sense.

I think the bible is also very clear that 'Christ is all and in all'.




Then how does predestination and freewill coexist? If God has everything predetermined then how can I be responsible for my actions?

Couldnt God have made their heart hard like the Pharoh in Mose's time?
Who are you to judge whether they have the spirit of God within them or not? Doesnt Jesus command us not to judge?

That is not judging. Non-believers, since the law is written on their heart, and will be accused or excused by their own conscience can still go to heaven and be right in the eyes of God right now. That does not require one to believe in the Word, to accept His Spirit within, and without either they cannot be God's people. Luckily God will accept His people and non-believers if they follow the law. Those without God's Spirit are none of His and it is clear many do not have His Spirit. Anyone can say they do but if they never felt it they should check if they want to be in accordance with the fullness of the Bible. Of course if they just wish to pick and choose what suits them from the Bible or even ignore it altogether and still claim they have the Spirit...caveat emptor.

What is the difference between God's spirit within us and God's law written on our hearts?




If they dont have his spirit then are some people born without souls and some with souls?



But if Christ is all and in all then how can that be interpreted into believing (with the fulness of the bible) that Christ is only some and in some?

Pharaoh hardened his own heart and God allowed Him to do so.



Joseph's brothers plotted evil against him out of their own free will. They sold him as a slave but God used Joseph. This is free will and destiny working hand in hand.



Jesus was crucified not just because of the plotting against him by others but also because it was God's plan. Again free will and destiny coincide. And in all three of these cases, Pharaoh, Joseph's brothers, Jesus' enemies...it was all for God's sovereign choice...his strategy for the course nations should take.



If there is doubt the Lord is not concerned with national interest so they allow His plans to take place there is plenty within the scriptures that substantiate this.

But it also says:

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

----Exodus 10: 1-2 (my emphasis)




I interpret it as to mean that God did it. Also the biblical quotes you mention dont actually explain how free-will and predestination coexist. It just shows there are biblical passages for both sides. Philosophically explain how can a God who predetermines all make room for free-will?

On a purely physical level, they can't. From our physical perspective they are opposite sides of a coin. But it is not inconceivable to think that in a spiritual realm they coexist. I'm not saying they do, since I don't know. I'm just saying that they might. The Bible is clear that we are predestined. And it is also adamant for us to make a choice to do good and follow God. I think the concept of "Real Will" figures prominently in this debate - our chocie, God's choice, together. I know you were asking this of Clovis, but my point is that I am not opposed to the idea of free will and predestination existing together on some spiritual plane. Don't ask me how, I would not even venture to make a guess.

I will offer the Biblical view and again no one has to agree with it for it is just one view among many.

The difference is one who follows the law is a spiritual Jew and one who does not is still a Gentile. The law applies to all it is not the Spirit.



Gentiles who do not have the law are a law to themselves. They are not of the Spirit as will be shown later.



Keepers of the law are Jews inwardly and it is by the Spirit.





Souls are not spirits.



We can purify our souls.



We can entrust our souls to God.



God weighs our spirit (small 's' spirit).



Our spirit can rejoice in God.



We can live in the spirit.



Mary the mother of God did not even have the Spirit until it came upon her (big 'S' spirit).



The small 's' spirit and big 'S' Spirit are not the same.



Only those that are holy can be the temple of God and have the Spirit dwell within.

I know we had a quick discussion on this before, but I don't think this is so. If you go solely by the Bible, non-believers cannot get to heaven on the basis of thier own conscience. Their conscience can defend and accuse them, but I think if everyone is honest, they will agree that no one has been perfect, which is God's requirement. Hence our consciences, while they may at times defend us (because as the Bible admits, you don't have to be a Christian to be a good person), ultimately condemn us. Which is why Jesus came. Just one verse to consider: And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:11-12).

edit: just to clarify, this does not refer to people who have not heard the message at all. The Bible never mentions people who have not heard the message, so we cannot use it as a blanket statement to then assume that people who did not hear of Jesus are automatically condemned - we just don't have that information available to us. I'm just speaking of the information we (as Christians) do have.

True, Clovis. I agree. But it is also true that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. This is one example of the dual-action of man and God that I discussed briefly in my last post. God acted to harden Pharaoh's heart, but at the same time, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. This is one reason why I am not opposed to both free will and predestination. But strictly speaking, you would have to say that God was responsible for Pharaoh's hardened heart, not Pharaoh himself.

Just a thought or two to consider......

More on the spirit and Spirit and let us not forget there are also evil spirits not of us but here on this world with us.

There are those joined to the Lord and those who are not. He becomes one spirit with us and we are not born with Him having one spirit with us.





You quote Collosians 3:11 but your view ignores the rest of the chapter?

One must put off the old self first and put on the new self next and be renewed in knowledge. It does not matter if we are Jews or Greek (gentile), circumcised (as the custom of Jews then) or not (as gentlies then), or anyting else, Christ can be in us all. We then become God's chosens one. We need to do all that and more if we read closely to truly become God's people and have His Spirit.



Anyone can claim they do not need the Bible to have God's Spirit. Many do. They can even claim they are Christians. Many do that too. But to deny the Bible is to deny the word.



There is just one body of Christ though and one Spirit of Christ. But it is in believers only who also have the one Lord, the one faith, and one baptism.



One must confess Jesus is from God or else their spirit is not one with the Spirit from God.



Those who keep the word do not deny His name.



There is a divde between those from God and those from the world. Those from God know the spirit of truth and error. Do not listen to me though listen to them...the writers of the Word. If one is not from God they will not listen to them.



We have to love one another to be given His Spirit.

I have to disagree for people can be good in other belief systems even if they are false systems designs to bring people to fail they can still win. How do the many millions of people throughout history have a chance if they never saw a Bible in their life or met someone who had? How do innocent babies, born in sin, but whose conscience will not accuse them of anything, have a chance? 1 John 5:9 says 'if we receive the testimony of man that the testimony of God is greater'. What if no one receives the testimony and there have been many who simply cannot?

edit: I see you mentioned people who have never heard the message at all...do you have any scriptural evidence that if one does hear it and rejects it and remains unconverted and does not become a Christian that they are then liable? Romans seems to indicate that one can become an 'inward Jew' or one can remain a Gentile. I am open to suggestions but the whole scaring people into converting definitely turns more people away from God than brings them in. In my view they are left to their devices of attempting to be good and not have a guilty conscience since we all are going to be held accountable to the law. I cannot judge one way or another but my mother in law is a Catholic and such a good person I cannot imagine her doing wrong. She puts others first all the time. She prays to God. She might be under the Vatican system but her heart is in the right place from what I can tell from her fruits.



I do agree that God hardened Pharaoh's heart but Pharaoh also hardened it himself as you stated. Totally in agreement with you that free will and destiny coexist. I have to say I simply do not know if God was ultimately responsible and not Pharaoh himself because the balance between free will and predetermination is not illustrated to us fully. It seems logical since God has more authority that God is ultimately responsible but since the Bible does not illustrate the balance clearly anything I say might be a guess. What I can agree on is that God decides the course of nations and Pharaoh was born at the exact time he was, in the exact place he did, for God's purpose no matter what Pharaoh chose for himself in life. No matter his decisions God was going to use him just as God used Cyrus. Blessings PA.

Where in the bible does it say that God told everyone that they had a choice? Sorry Jesus doesn't count I want to know where he told EVERYONE that it was heaven or hell (whatever you think hell is.)

What ever evidence that someone might see that proves to you of your Gods exsistance is not necessarily seen as evidence to another. So how can it be "willfully ignored"?


Either the experiences we have lead us to believe in God(s) or it doesn't... You can't make yourself believe in something, just as you can't honestly internally validate, what to you, is circumstancial or illogical "evidence" for the existance of God. Therefore it is not a choice.

Well on the other hand God chose the twelve and yet one of them made his own choice to betray our Savior.

Good question though norwood I do not have the answer and would like to hear it as well. The following does not answer it for your example but I know for sure that for me I do have that choice just as Judas Iscariot had that choice. He knew the Savior through the flesh as I do through the Spirit. The choice is mine truly.