I'm sure there have been some Roswell discussions here, but after all I have read and heard about the Roswell Crash in 1947 what appalls me the most is the death threats issued to those who witnessed something, against not only themselves, but their families - to include their children! And those same threats made against those who were just children at the time.

If our government felt that it had to go to such extremes then I have to ponder what it was that actually crashed in the desert that they were so desperate to not want anyone to know about.

Anyone here live in that area?

Yes there have been many Roswell discussions, most of which degenerate into a drawn engagement of post and counter-post between advocates of 'The flying saucer was an ET spaceship' and those who feel that it was something else (though typically we get thrown into the same camp as 'those who blindly accept the official cover story'.

Generally, Rosewell has been left to figuaritively 'rot' by those who are seriously researching the nature of the UFO phenomena. The broad explanation for this is that it holds little value for new insight into the overall phenomena, and part of this is that most (if not all) the first hand witnesses are deceased. The accounts of 'death threats' tend to show up in second and third hand witness accounts. Of course you'll no doubt shortly see an argument against this theory posted. But that's just the nature of this horse

Roswell, as a conspiracy theory, will never go away. There's just something about the modern human mind that is drawn to CT. Perhaps it's the empowering aspect of 'knowing something' that is secret or taboo. And, with Roswell, there's so many inconsistancies in each version of the conspiracy, that it's able to support them all.

If you decide to get into the 'Roswell as a CT' research, it's worthwile looking at some of the alternative theories, in particular Nick Redfern's book 'Body Snatchers in the Desert'. Just as the ET crowd finds that a lot of the 'official documents' jive with a crashed ET, you'll also find that there's a lot more declassified material that supports continuation of Nazi and Japanese research, particularly with regard to some of the attrocious experimentation on society's 'undesirables'.

Well, I doubt you would find a better answer than you have already recieved from Evangium. Well said M8. Sums it up nicely.

Are you speaking of Barbara Dugger's account? (Only account involving a child I can think of) Her account is a rendition of her grandmothers (which conlicts by the way) the grown ups she was with remember the account differently. They do not recall any death threats. Her account conflicts with Brazels as well.

Cheers M8 ,

Looks like it's just you and me. Maybe the unthinkable has happened and even the truth-seekers have realised this horse doesn't even have desert sun-bleached bone left to whip...

Which is odd since there's a few die hards who are all over the Roswell threads, like flies on the proverbial...

Well, let me just say that wherever they've disappeared to, I hope they're in good health, and nothing bad has befallen them.

Roswell reality has been emerging over the years, and now, we have found that no balloon of any kind was responsible, and I am expecting more revelations as times goes on.

While I think skepticism of the military's latest story regarding Roswell is understandable since they changed their story so many times, there is no indisputable evidence that "aliens" crashed at Roswell in 1947.


"We" have found nothing of the sort. Stating opinion as fact isn't the kind of "evidence" that's needed to qualify Roswell as a ET mission gone tragically wrong. Fact is, there's no way you can do it any more than supporters of the Project Mogul explanation can "prove" their opinion on a bulletin board. As has already been mentioned by Evangium there could even be other possible explanations. Bottom line - only the military knows for sure what happened and while there's nothing wrong with speculation, stating same as irrefutable fact is self-delusional.

Mac Brazel had his own account and some interesting stories after he was released from military custody after a week, and I am very sure it wasn't over a balloon either.

Is it any wonder as to why the military keeps changing its story after first reporting that it captured a "flying saucer?!"




I don't know where are got that idea when the Air Force supplied me with all of the information proving that no Mogul balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident and last summer, an experiment proved once and for all, that no balloon was responsible and that in keeping with a statement by Congressman Steven Schiff during his investigation that no balloon of any kind was responsible for the Roswell incident.

A policeman and rancher, Sid West were among indidivuals who recovered Mogul balloons and I even provided photos of those balloons that were made public by the Air Force in newspapers around the country back in the late 1940's when the Air Force today, is telling us that there were classified. Add to that fact that the Air Force released details of the Mogul balloon experiments along with other photos just days after the Roswell incident hit the press.

In other words, the Air Force deceived today's public and other those who allowed themselves to be duped are still claiming that balloons were involved when it has been shown that no balloon of any king was reponsible.

The Air Force pulled the balloon story our of its 'hat of deception" and there are those who took the balloon bait.



As I have stated earlier, it has been determined that no Mogul balloon was responsible and those balloon were no classified than a typical weather balloon. In fact, Mogul balloons were occasionally recovered for rewards after answering questionnaires that were attached to Mogul balloons and written in spanish and english. Some Mogul balloons were often left out in open fields and that is a clear indication that they were not classified objects.

Add to the fact that not one single piece of equipment associated with Mogul balloons were reported recovered and experiments have proven beyond any doubt that it would have taken manny Mogul balloons to create the kind of debris field reported on the Foster ranch.

Add to the fact as well, the debris rocovered was not indicative of balloon material.



There are places where secret military aircraft test were carried out and Roswell AAF was not one of them. In addition, scientist and engineers in the area also reported UFOs over the area. What was the original story reported by the Air Force?

The capture of a flying saucer!!

Common sense would dictate that you don't cover up the crash of a classified project by reporting to the whole world that you have just captured a flying saucer. The name of the game is to deflect attention away from the crash site of a classified project, not bring in the eyes of the whole world to the classified crash site.

I have provided some examples in the past as to how the Air Force really covers the crash of classified projects, courtesy of the USAF.

You might as well tell me you were abducted by the Pleidian bikini-team skyeagle409. Name-dropping and implied special "inside information" where the military supposedly debunks it's own "official" explanation to you won't wash here. One can not "prove" a Mogul balloon didn't crash and I'd like to think you're not so desperate that you have to cite any politician as an appeal to authority.


Wrong. Either you're confusing weather balloons with the balloon-trains of Project Mogul or you are attempting to re-write history to suit your own POV. The U.S. ARMY Air Force didn't release any photos of Mogul that was identified as such at that time nor has it "been shown that no balloon of any kind was responsible." Repetition doesn't make your opinion any more credible here.


In that the military also iniitially reported that it recovered a "flying disc," which is implied to mean an otherwordly craft, it's obvious that your "hat of deception" isn't 'one size-fits all.'



As I've stated earlier, it hasn't been determined conclusively that a Mogul balloon was not responsible. While I'm skeptical of the Mogul explanation myself I could understand the military's reasons for trying to keep a lid on a method to detect Soviet nuclear testing 2 years prior to the USSR actually exploding a bomb. Cold War paranoia ran high in those days and dis-info, even lousy attempts at same, isn't confined just to what you find convenient. To dismiss Project Mogul because other crashed balloons were "left out in open fields" implies that every balloon that came down in those days was a Mogul listening device. You blur Mogul with the multitudes of less exotic balloons that graced the skies in that era.





Really? Why is it that if I requested a citation for this I'm sure it would come from a 'believer' site? Many aspects of the anecdote that passes for Roswell "evidence" could be used to promote a Mogul balloon scenario and has been done so by a host of skeptics/debunkers and the military itself. The only irrefutable fact regarding Roswell for us is this: Hitching one's wagon to any explanation suffers from the same lack of conclusive evidence to qualify it.


I have already touched on how you contradict your own "hat of deception" by blindly accepting the initial press release. My skepticism isn't so subjective.


I agree with you here. The military would have been better served to keep their mouths shut but one could, without abandoning "common sense," consider a more down-to Earth-reason for their sloppy knee-jerk attempts to cover up something due to loss of containment. When confronted with multiple "explanations" by the military I don't think it's prudent to accept any of them...including the first one.


Examples of other military containment protocols are irrelevant. We are talking about Roswell, New Mexico back in July 1947... the USAF didn't even exist for another couple months.

Not true,... A serious look at 'Roswell', considering the "silence from Top Side" and other evidence, 'Roswell' appears to be an elaborate and well orchestrated Counter Intel Op.! The immediate after effect of 'Roswell' at the time was a Nation-wide PR event in which every branch of Military launched "Weather Balloons" for the Press in order to convince the general public that 'other people' were just seeing "weather Balloons"! This was despite the FACT that the Military was already investigating the 'UFO' Phenomena since before the end of WWII.

Cheers,

L_S

Ah yes, but which dis-info is the truth? When examined in depth, Roswell should leave more questions than answers. In the years afterwards we see ET disinfo being spread via anonomous strangers back to the FBI. And depending on which theory you subscribe to, there's enough official documents and sources to support it.
If outright condemnation of a theory is anything to go by, then Redfern's is the best possible explanation, since Klass dumped on it for getting away from the Mogul balloon (and offering too many ways out for the ET crowd). Freidman, whilst he did nitpick a few points (as is his thing-see anything on the MJ-12 'documents'), didn't outrightly say that Redfern's hypothesis was outrightly wrong. And the Air Force had no comment to make.
But then you can support the official explanations with the inconsistancies between the eyewitness accounts (and in some cases, how far removed they are from first hand)
And of course we know all the points for a crashed UFO...

As far as CT goes, Roswell is definitely one of the best in that each piece of disinfo strengthens multiple hypotheses

You are correct and the Foo Fighters of World War II and the fact General Jimmy Doolittle, who was the leader of the imfamous raid over Tokyo in 1942, conducted an investigation, which underlines that point.

So where is exibit -A ? the hardware we need the operators hand book so we can really rebuild one of those things LoL DONTEATUS its all in the stars.

Why not?! Those the facts! I even posted the specifics on how it was done, which came straight from the mouth of the USAF. In fact, I posted the link on the issue several times before and look what you posted!!




In addition, I was part of an Air Force cover-up in regards to the downing of the Korean Airlines, B-747, Flt 007. I was reading the cover story regarding recovery efforts in the newspapers and the Intel folks were giving us a completely different story. It was my C-5 that was used to transport recovery materials from Cubi Point, Philippines to Japan, with a short stop at Yokota Air Base, Japan. I was on a typical "Round Robin" misson in the Pacific when we got the call at Clark Air Base, Philippines to support the recovery efforts.



It has already been proven that no Mogul balloon flight #4 occurred and the records from NYU I obtained from the USAF underlines that point because there were no records of any kind pertaining a Mogul balloon flight #4 and in fact, the balloon flight the skeptics claimed was responsible, was cancelled due to clouds on June 4, 1947 as was the case on June 3, 1947. That is why there are no flight records for any Mogul balloon flight #4 and that fact can be found in the official records of A. P. Crary.

Now, others have come aboard after realizing that there were no such Mogul balloon flight after all.



Check it out!!





I am very sure that if you go back a few months, you will see photos of Mogul balloons that I posted several times before, including the Mogul balloon lying in an open field, and look what you posted!!




I deception of what?? Common sense dictates that you don't use such a sensational story to cover-up a downed classified project.




In addition to official Mogul balloon records, it has been proven by scientific analysis and even an experiment just last summer where some Roswell skeptics were present. A copy of a Mogul balloon train was used in the experiment and then, shot down and the results of the debris site afterwards proved once and for all there were no way a Mogul balloon train could have been responsible and the amazing thing about that was that the debris site was much smaller than expected, even by the standards the skeptics used prior to that experiment.

So you see, it helps to know the rest of the story. Note the date of this publication and look at the photo taken in Ramey's office in July 1947. It is just nothing but a weather balloon and in 1994, the Air Force said that it wasn't a weather balloon that was reponsible for the Roswell incident after all, just as is the case with a Project Mogul balloon flight that never was.

It is not available to the publc any more than it was for the CIA's A-12 in 1962.

Actually, the Air Force existed long before the Roswell incident; it just separated from the Army in 1947.

Actually, not the way I read it. At least, not separate from the US Army.

http://www.af.mil/history/overview.asp
(Scroll to bottom)

Let's do a recap!

And that, Sky Eagle, confirms what I've suspected. You take things out of context and twist words.

I purposely quoted the very relevant part, but I'll post it again.


That means the USAF was independent only after July 26, 1947. Prior to that, it wasn't.

Frankly, that has nothing to do with the topic, but IMO, it does more for your lack of credible arguments than anything else.

As I posted, the nucleus of the Air Force that was bombing in 1942, is the same that remained unchanged in 1947 and afterwards. Are you familiar with General "Hap" Arnold? That is a clue!

http://www.wingsacrossamerica.us/wasp/bio_arnold.htm

General ‘Hap’ Arnold, one of the greatest American military figures and Air Force proponents in the history of America, was born in Gladwyn, Pennsylvania on June 25, 1886. Following graduation from the United States Military Academy, he was appointed a Second Lieutenant of Infantry on 14 June, 1907.

In 1911 he entered aviation and became a flyer. He was detailed to the Signal Corps in April, 1911, piloting the Wright bi-plane. He was one of the first flyers taught by the Wright Brothers.

In June, 1912, this pioneering pilot, Hap Arnold, established a new altitude record when he piloted a Brugree-Wright airplane to a height of 6,540 feet. He participated in the Regular Army and National Guard movements in the States of New York and Connecticut and established several aeronautical records. On October 9, 1942, he won the first Mackay Trophy to be awarded for his flight demonstrations.

He progressed rapidly through the ranks, and by 11 February 1935 he had received the temporary rank of Brigadier General, and on September 29, 1938 he was named Chief of Staff of the Air Corps. With Hitler now marching across Europe, he became concerned with America‘s lack of combat aircraft. He discussed the US air power vs the German air power with President Roosevelt, and a decision was made to build 11,000 new combat aircraft. Gen. Arnold then commanded that civilian flying schools be established to train Air Corps pilots.

The Army Air Forces was established in 1941 and Major General Arnold became Chief of Staff for Air and Chief of the Army Air Forces.

During the early months of 1942, General Arnold, encountering a severe shortage of male pilots due to heavy losses of combat pilots, approved a plan, submitted by Jacqueline Cochran, to train young women pilots to fly military aircraft within the U.S. to relieve the male pilots for combat duty. On 14 Sept 1942, the Womens Flying Training Detachment was established at the Houston Municipal Airport, with Jacqueline Cochran as its Director. Three months later, because of a lack of military training facilities and housing in Houston, Gen. Arnold approved moving the training program to Avenger Field in Sweetwater, Texas.

In May of 1943, General Hap Arnold authorized Jacqueline Cochran to see to developing a suitable uniform for the women pilots. He wants it to be ’blue‘. In concurrence with the new Santiago blue WASP uniforms, on Aug 20, General Arnold, CG/AAF issued orders that ’The acronym for all AAF women pilots will be WASP (Women Airforce Service Pilots) period.‘

March 22, 1944 General Arnold appeared before the House Military Affairs Committee to request commissions for the WASP. He leaves immediately for Europe to participate in the D-Day invasion, and the bill fails to pass.

June 26, 1944, following the defeat of the bill to include the WASP as officers in the Army Air Force, General Arnold orders that the WASP be discontinued in December, 1944.

General Arnold retired from the service on 30 June 1946 with the ratings of Command Pilot and Combat Observer. His many accomplishments, of both personal and national significance, gained him the distinction of becoming the first five-star General of the United States Air Force on 7 May 1949, by an act of Congress.

He died on 15 January 1950 of a cardiac condition.

General Arnold received the Distinguished Flying Cross in November, 1936, and the Distinguished Service Medal in October, 1942. He was awarded the Air Medal in March, 1943, and in September, 1945, he received the Oak Leaf Cluster to the Distinguished Service Medal. In October, 1945, he was awarded a second Oak Leaf Cluster to the Distinguished Service Medal. His other awards included: The World War II Victory Medal; American Defense Medal; American Theater Ribbon; Asiatic Pacific Theater Ribbon; European-African-Middle Eastern Theater Ribbon, 1943; U.S. Military Badge No 1; Morocco’s Grand Cross, Grand Officer of the Commander (Ouissam Alaouite); Yugoslavia‘s Sun in the degree of Grand Aztec Eagle; Mexico’s Order of Military Merit; and England‘s Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath.

The H. H. Arnold Award was established in honor of General Arnold by the Air Force Association in 1948. It is presented for the ’most outstanding contributions toward the peace and the service of the United States in the field of aviation.‘ The Arnold Air Society Squadrons at outstanding universities all over America with AFROTC (Air Force Reserve Officer Training Corps) programs are so named in his honor.

General Arnold had but one theme: ’It‘s got to be done and done quickly, so let’s get it done.‘ Let not there be any doubt of the WASP’ pride in General Henry ‘Hap’ Arnold, the man who, among his many accomplishments, authorized the creation and naming of the WASP-a man who ‘had the imagination to see success and the confidence to create it’.

The only "facts" here is that there are no "facts" we can take to the bank regarding the various claims involving Roswell.


More "inside" info? Save it for the gullible who accept anecdote as hard evidence. Flight 007 was shot down by the Soviets for violating their airspace. That's the only given. I've read some books speculating that this flight intentionally "probed" Soviet air defenses and one version even mentions a mammoth dogfight over the Pacific between US and Soviet jets but this, as is the case with your claim here, are just unsupported stories with no hope of confirmation. That's the nice thing about leaning on a "classified" crutch, no burden of proof required. Regarding current and past containment protocols and 1947 Roswell, it's irrelevant trying to shoehorn 1947 with later examples or telling me that such protocols exist. I'm sure everyone reading this knows that. I'm also sure that everyone here will agree that it's obvious the military covered something up.


I'm not really interesting in defending the "Mogul" story. Like I said I'm skeptical about that but don't subscribe to your "addition by subtraction" tack that you try to use to promote an even more unlikely scenario.


The anecdotal testimony surrounding Roswell is fraught with inconsistencies and, in some cases, conflicting claims so "people coming forward" in any context doesn't really mean anything.



I didn't know that and concede that I was in error regarding the "classified" aspect of these aerial A-bomb detectors in 1947, but that in itself doesn't really matter in the Big Picture. Like I said, I don't blindly accept the Mogul explanation myself but you trying to discredit one version of events to qualify another is insufficient. The military's credibility isn't the issue here.


You missed my point. There was no common sense used by the military - they didn't have to say anything - but my point wasn't about the military. Assigning blind faith without indisputable evidence to any of the multiple stories we've heard shows confirmational bias (to be kind). You have lost the ability to think critically because you want to believe ET came all this way in a tiny craft and crashed somehow. You state opinion as fact and overlook the problems with the ET story and when it comes to the press release that started it all you drop the "UFO deception" tag only to pick it right back up as the SNAFU continued to unfold. Now tell me, do you really think that if it actually happened, the military just blurts out that a flying saucer crashed near a Cold War atomic bomber base in a later press release? Why? You claim you were affiliated with the military and are privy to supposed "classified stuff," would you just blurt out "classified" info? Yet apparently that's what you think happened and are trying sell here.


I remember O.J. Simpson trying on a glove once... I don't know how a "scientific analysis" could rule out a Mogul balloon since they didn't have the 1947 debris nor how "shooting down" a Mogul balloon is supposed to descredit one from crashing in 1947.


There you go again stating opinion as fact. You still haven't demonstrated that Roswell couldn't have been Mogul and don't seem to realize you or anyone else can't "prove" that at any rate. If anything, your post actually helps the Mogul explanation more than hurts it. From the newspaper clippings we have evidence that these flights did occur and that a switcheroo was made. That doesn't rule out Mogul. Telling me a post-mortem recreation was done "debunking" a Mogul explanation over a half-century later overlooks the fact that one can't very easily "prove" a negative. Since you claim "skeptics" were present I'm assuming these recreations were done by 'believers' which, if true, raises objectivity issues (in addition to the two I raised previously). In any case one can't go back to July 1947. One can surmise that the rancher should have known what a Mogul balloon was, quibble about the size of debris fields, or question whether a Mogul flight was in the area etc but that's not what is needed by the proponents of 'ET was here.' One can also question the military's "common sense" but when you factor in some gems like their denial that Area 51 even existed until relatively recently I don't think the military's "common sense" issues will sell ET for you here any time soon. The only thing that will sell it is something you don't have -irrefutable evidence. A government "confession," backed up by examination of the recovered extraterrestrial material would do it IMO. So would ET making this all moot by conducting their own press conference. I'm not going to hold my breath here skyeagle409.

You have various claims in aircraft and auto accidents as well, so that is nothing new. A case in point, an aircraft accident where some witnesses had said the aircraft was on fire before it hit the runway and others saying that it wasn't until after contacting the runway did the fire break out.

It took the data evidence to prove who was right, and who was wrong.



It was shot down outside Soviet airspace after flying into its airspace, and it wasn't the first time it shot down a Korean airliner either.



I claimed no such thing! In regards to Soviet air defenses, the Air Force revealed that they have been trying to shoot down flying saucers as well.



There are some skeptics no longer interested in Project Mogul flight #4 either after official Mogul balloon records revealed that no such flight took place. All it took was just some simply homework to make that determination.



And, there are other things that you don't know, and I do, which is why I have been saying that ET visitation is a "reality," a fact that was noted by the USAF back in the 1940's, which the public was unaware of in that regard, and the public was also unaware of what the Air Force was telling its own cadets about flying saucers.

Can you say cat fight? LoL DONTEATUS

And if pigs had wings ... Correct me if I'm wrong, with regard to Roswell we are not talking about your typical "aviation accident" here, are we? I'm waiting for that "ET smoking gun." Haven't seen it.



And? I didn't say KAL 007 was shot down over Soviet airspace (they almost got away which embarrassed the Soviets even more than the incursion) nor that it was the first time the Soviets downed a plane.



Never said you did. Regarding Soviet/US attempts to shoot down "flying saucers," do you have more than anecdotal evidence that any particular "UFO" was ever identified as such? I bring that up because many people blur the two. A "flying saucer" obviously isn't a UFO, it's an extraterrestrial aircraft while a UFO could be practically anything since it's unidentified. The main reason I ask is because I have never saw, read, or heard that we ID' d ET in our skies.



Really? What makes you think skepticism is confined to any particular POV or UFO ideology or that perceived debunkery on your part regarding "Flight# 4" disqualifies anything regarding Mogul? How can you logically assume anything gleaned by "simple homework" is sufficient in regards to Mogul when you imply the military/government is not forthcoming in the first place? By alleging a coverup or disinfo you taint that very "homework" skyeagle409 since it's based on the very public record that you allege is "not forthcoming."



Whatever skyeagle409. You keep telling me that "you're in the know" with this kinda stuff but don't seem to realize that no one should believe in anything based on unsupported anecdote. You might as well tell me you have a cape and can fly at leisure. What you need to do, and I haven't seen it, is actually make a case for your beliefs instead of wasting your time telling me what's wrong with those beliefs/scenarios that conflict with yours. It's a waste of time. Really.

I probably share your skepticism with regard to what often comes out of PTB 'talking-heads' but am less biased because, unlike you, I have no axe to grind or belief to spew and recognize the illogic of using some of their stuff to debunk some of their other stuff. Word of advice, and you can take it or leave it, save the folly of "after-the-fact" debunkery for the self-anointed "skeptics" and Klass-wannabes...you're not any better at it than they are (I'm being kind again) and need to stay focused on what you haven't done and really need to do here regarding your hypothetical ET.

Good luck.

But, the main underlying fact remains, the Air Force reported that it recovered a flying saucer. Now, they would have not done so to cover up any secret project, but then again, since the military was unaware of the crash until notified later, that proves that what crrashed, had nothing to do with any classified project by of the military by that very fact. Simply common sense logic, you understand!



Common sence dictates that if we didn't have hypersonic flying saucers capable of right-angled maneuvers, then the hypersonic flying saucers noted by officials could not have been ours by that very fact. Simple common sense logic, you understand!



Because official Mogul balloon records show that there were no Mogul balloon flight of any kind on the date the skeptics claimed and why there are no flight records for any Mogul balloon flight on that date, because there was a stipulation between the balloon teams and the CAA that no Mogul balloon flight be conducted on cloudy days, and the day of June 4, 1947, was cloudy and records show, the flight was cancelled due to clouds in the area and once again, why there are no flight records for any Mogul balloon flight on that date, which simply means, the Air Force made up the story on a Mogul balloon flight that never was in the same manner it had done in regards to the weather balloon where the Air Force finally admitted, never was responsible for the Roswell incident after 47 years of telling us that it was.

Add to the fact that no equipment associated with any Mogul balloon train was ever reported recovered, but then again, mathematically facts have proven that it was have taken a group of such balloons to create the kind of debris field that was reported, but then again, no Mogul balloon train was responsible for the Roswell incident anyway. That story was made up in the same manner that the Air Force had done with the weather balloon.



All it takes is simple homework to know that no Mogul balloon train was launched on the date indicated and why there are no flight records for any Mogul balloon flight on June 4, 1947. It is that simple.

Doing your homework would be sufficient enough to understand that I am correct on this issue. I solicited the assistance of the Air Force to supply me with the records on Project Mogul and amazingly, the records proved there were no such thing as Mogul balloon flight #4.

Sounds like "Larry,Curly,and Moe! " now Y`all all spin around on the floor for a min. DONTEATUS

The spin stops here!

Facts are facts, and the Air Force made up the story about Project Mogul and it is clearly evident.

The Air Force claimed that Project Mogul balloons were classified, when it fact, they were not, and the Air Force never told the real story in its 1994 Roswell report that Mogul balloons were occasionally recovered by ordinary citizens and other Mogul balloons were sometimes left lying in open fields. One case involved a Mogul balloon train that was vandalized after lying next to a roadway. Another Mogul balloon was recovered by a policeman at Flatbush, New Jersey after the Mogul balloon snagged itself on the roof of a tarvern and many civilians watched the recovery.

Rancher Sid West was one of those civilians who recovered a Mogul balloon and the balloon team decided to wait until the next day to recover the object. Mogul balloons even had questionnaires attached and invited members of the public to add their imput and afterwards, given rewards.

There are no records of any kind for the Mogul balloon train the Air Force claims were responsible for the Roswell incident and ironically, it was the Air Force that supplied me with the information that there were NO Mogul balloon flight #4 on June 4, 1947. The balloon flight was cancelled according to the record; due to clouds in the area.

Here is how we really detected the Soviet's first nuclear blast and a Project Mogul balloon wasn't involved.


How To Detect An Atomic Bomb









Now, for the rest of the story of how we detected the Soviet's first nuclear blast in 1949 that had nothing to with a Project Mogul balloon train.

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/m...2006_4_44.shtml


What is all means is that the Mogul balloon story the Air Force handed to the public is false and sometimes, the answer you seek, is right before your eyes.

Im with you on this point skyeagle its quite a job they did in the late 40`s thru the 60`s developing WMD`s now can we build the fence.

Heh, if there was an "underlining fact" (I'm assuming that's what you meant) we wouldn't be having this conversation. The only underlining fact is the ARMY Air Force said they recovered a "disc," then a weather balloon, ...later it was Mogul. Common sense would say you don't pick any of their stories. You seem to cherry pick when to believe an agency you basically claim lies...that's not common sense.



Or guillibilty on your part. It seems ufology is heavy on anecdote .. and nothing else. The plural of anedote is not data. Common sense dictates that there's not enough "MIB" to explain the lack of a 'UFO=ET aircraft' "smoking gun" with all that so-called "evidence" you and others trumpet. There doesn't seem to be any non-extraterrestrial explanations with you 'believer' types. That's not very objective, let alone a symptom of common-sense, especially when you consider the "U" in UFO means unidentified. To believe what you posit I don't need "common sense" lectures from you, I need what you and other ETH disciples never seem to have - ET.



You waste that on me. I'm no Mogul-groupie. Outside of spouting old rebuttals of Klass (who I didn't like BTW) and presenting anecdote as fact, which seems to be a habit with you, you're not using your head. If our government covers up things then "official" data is not to be trusted, nor is lack of "official" data to be trusted. You UFO guys like to have your cake and eat it too but you really have nothing here. If there was a legitimate "smoking gun" I'd be debating ET's origins or motives with you, not their supposed nose-dive in New Mexico way back when. I told you before, "addition by subtraction" won't qualify ET for you, that means Mogul is irrelevant to your argument for ET involvement. You know what you need.



Why even "solicit the assistance of the Air Force to supply [you] with records on Project Mogul" when you tell this board they lie? Where's your common sense?

Regarding their claims and your 'cake and eat it too' interpretations regarding that agency the self-anointed "skeptics" would disagree and I, once again, consider it irrelevant. I believe something happened in 1947 and there's a good chance it wasn't a Mogul balloon, but there's no real evidence that ET was what it was. In fact, there's no real evidence of ET period regarding UFOs ... but I'll save that for another thread.

Next time you do "your homework" and pontificate about "common sense" ask yourself why:

* The AAF said anything. That's probably the only real debate worth having about Roswell.

* If ET knows we're here and drops in for a visit, then why come all this way and make no effort to recover their "technology" due to an accident with one of their little "scout ships." Hell, we snatch our pilots out of Bosnia and we haven't even mastered interstellar travel.

* Why haven't you even considered the possibility of a third alternative to Roswell?

Roswell probably won't ever be satisfactorily explained. One thing I do know, you haven't done it here skyeagle409.

You don't have to be a clown. If you have nothing substantive to add to this conversation, try to be cute elsewhere.

Remember, KNOWLEDGE determines when to "hold 'em" and when to "throw 'em" and it seems that some skeptics lack knowledge to know the difference and that is where I have the advantage as history has shown.

Common sense dictates that the Air Force wouldn't have reported recovering a flying saucer to the whole world if not true, and common sense dictates that what crashed, had nothing to do with any classified program either because the miilitary was unaware of any crash at that time.



Let's just say, reality on my part, as history has shown.



I have already presented it, and why skeptics tend to find themselves in the wrong place whenever the facts are revealed, so is it any wonder as to why there are those who are now dismissing Project Mogul after the Air Force dismissed the weather balloon in 1994?

It seems the skeptics never learn from history.



On the contrary, not one of my presentations on UFOs nor the data has ever been refuted by any skeptic with facts to back them up, and the proof is, the cases files remain unexplained officially to this very day, so in that regard, you are incorrect once again.



Now, for the rest of the story! At one time I thought that such a flight occurred, but not responsible for the Roswell incident. The problem was, I counldn't find any flight data nor any references to a Project Mogul balloon flight #4, so I did this thing called, homework and went to the Air Force for help, where they supplied me with the much-needed materiat that proved there were no such flight as Project Mogul balloon flight #4, and in fact, record shows that that the flight was cancelled due to clouds and not flown and that is why there are no fllight records for any Mogul flight #4.

I ascertained those facts by doing my homework, which is what some skeptics fail to do, otherwise, they would have found that I am correct.




I know as a fact, it wasn't a Mogul balloon.



Apparently, scientist and engineers in New Mexico, not far from Roswell, who were observing flying saucers, some as they hovered 200 miles above Earth, will disagree with your assessment, and rightly so.



Just goes to show why skeptics lose arguments, because they don't do their homework.

Heh, did some other woo tell you repetition makes bull-crap more shiny or is this your own m/o at play? Irregardless, you can't polish a turd here skyeagle409. Your "common sense" overlooks the fact that the military had no reason to reveal anything. Do you think ET held a phaser to the head of the guy that made the press release? It's obvious spin/misdirection. So's their later stories. "Not well done" does not equal "ET."




This is just a plain stupid thing to post. You and history aren't exactly mutually synonymous from what I've read. You post opinions as fact, allege "special inside knowledge" you can't qualify, prattle on continuously about when to believe a "liar" (the AAF/USAF as 2 examples), and seem to forget that ET is speculation at best, not history.



You have "already presented it?" I beg to differ. You haven't presented squat outside of the typical UFO lore. I haven't been here long enough to read everything you've posted but based on what I have I believe you haven't met a paranormal story you didn't like. That's fine as far as you go but don't pretend to be objective or rational. Won't wash.



First of all, are "skeptics" in your context "skeptics" or skeptics? Reason I ask is I think everyone is a skeptic in some things, even woo woos like yourself, so I fail to see the need to try to use "skeptic" as a label to further your POV. You need ET to further your POV mate, nothing less will do.




You're wrong about me being incorrect for the simple reason I haven't put myself in a position to be incorrect. I'm not the one making claims here, you are. Talking about refutations regarding an unidentified anything is assinine skyeagle409.





No, this just goes to show that you haven't paid attention to me and what I've wrote. "Doing your homework" is obviously your catch-phrase for being naive enough to let others do your thinking for you. I'll pass. No wonder why you try to use "skepticism" as a deprecating label. Once again, in case you were somehow distracted when I posted this earlier, whether Roswell was Mogul or not does not make ET as an alternative any more or less likely on its own.

No "homework" required here skyeagle409, just ET.

Let's look at things for the reality of what it is.



All you have to do is to go back into history and see what I mean!



It has in the real world as history has shown already.

Do I need to post some clear examples?



The differences that lies between us is the fact I know things that you don't, and have proven it in the past that explains your stance, which doesn't reflect reality. After all, you were unaware that scientist and engineers in the general Roswell area were also observing, tracking and documenting flying saucers over their area. and it was I, who brought that news to you.

Goes to show you need to do some homework!

False!

The fact that you were unable to refute any of my claims, is that proof, and rightly so, because I know the facts, and you don't, and it is that simple, especially since I have already reviewed the official documents on the matter and why I posted them for your review to prove that you were incorrect, and did so beyond any doubt.

In case you didn't know it!

I don't seem to have your free time skyeagle-409 & decided to lump your last two posts together to make a point.

Neither one has anything more than your blind faith and your usual links to pro-UFO sites. No ET hardware, "alien' DNA, or anything else to bring this out of the realm of total suspension of rational skepticism and common sense...not that I expected any. That's the problem here sky. You have no real irrefutable evidence here or elsewhere on this forum. We can post an "is to, is not" back and forth until the cows come home, but outside of words & links, your ET doesn't exist. Telling me you're "in the know" is lame and makes me doubt your 'military' credentials for the simple fact that people that really are keep their mouths/keyboards shut or they lose that status (among other things) very quickly. To blow that just to make a point/claim on a civilian bulletin board is just plain dumb. Save that "I know" malarkey for those that don't/can't think for themselves because it won't wash and only reflects negatively on you. Roswell will always be a dead-end for you believers, not because it couldn't happen but because by cherry-picking the PTB pronouncements on it and other ufological stuff, you shoot yourself in the foot. Either there's an omnipotent coverup , or there isn't. This coverup would involve so many MIB we'd be tripping over them as one would need to shadow every meteorologist and astronomer on the planet ... and that's just the pros. You'd need many more for the world-wide people that have access to meteorological, astronomical, and military records to boot, let alone the people like you. You either are too wet behind the ears to realize that or are yanking chains here. Think about it, you actually expect some people to buy into your spiel which is basically using "official" sources to debunk same and a perfect coverup only ET/UFO believers can defy.

No "blind faith" on my part, since I have already seen one for myself.

That has no bearing by the fact that I don't have a part of the so-called "Aurora," but that aircraft exist. I didn't have a piece of the CIA's A-12 when it was still a classified aircraft, but did that mean it didn't exist?

I don't have a piece of Pluto either, but does that mean that Pluto doesn't exist?

Of course not, so accept reality for what it is.

So you identified this "UFO" of yours, eh? What planet did it come from?



funny, but the military denies the existance of '"Aurora," bub. Let another "secret" slip? The A-12 is nothing more than another version of the old SR-71 Blackbird that was built back when JFK coveted the presidency - you that old?



Heh, are you reduced to invoking Pluto here? This is almost funny. Is Pluto a UFO is your universe?

[

How about under the oceans and from deep space as the makers of NORAD's DSP surveillance satellites have already noted?

I guess you didn't know that, and I did! But then again, that is nothing new! You were also unaware that scientist and astronomers were also tracking, observing and documenting flying saucers as well.



The existence of the Aurora was evident when siesmic sensors first began to pick up strange sonic booms in the Southern California desert and researcher found that the craft wasn't the SR-71, but much faster. Noted in Aviation Week in 1992.

The military also denied certain facts in regards to Korean Airlines Flt 007 even though the Intel' folks were giving us the real scoop on recovery efforts, which I was very much involved, so since you don'[t know the erst of the story and I did, then what else is there to say???



But the A-12 was smaller and lighter than the SR-71 and flew higher and faster than the SR-71 and the A-12 carried only one person and was an aircraft of the CIA.




Apparently, you missed the boat on what the issue was all about!

You're 100% right, I didn't know that .. and you did! ... Holy Cow! But you'll need to cut me a break here, I don't live in your fantasy-land where the PTB is both a foil and a savior. So tell me, where did NORAD and the "scientists" and "astronomers" hide the real evidence for flying saucers?




Uh, maybe .. but maybe not. Here's another reason I think you're full of crap 'military man." The sonic booms you speak of and donut-contrails seen at the same time didn't indicate a predecessor to the SR-71 per se (I'm sure we had one prior to these Aurora rumors) but were experiments with pulse-detonation propulsion technology. That was common-knowledge to anyone interested in military aviation (as I am) and the resulting manifestations - the "donut" contrails and "sonic booms" have ceased. Now I know this without being a "skyeagle" like you so spare me the Aurora myth based on your "authority" .. the military is always working on new and improved stuff, but when it comes to secret stuff you're as much in the know as I am.




So tell me 'military man," is it true the Soviets smoked y'all like Cuban cigars? That's what I heard. I never believed it.





And you know you're splitting hairs here. If I had an influence back then there would have been an A-12 utilization of that excellent design instead of the recon SR variant.

What fantasy???

Now, nations around the globe have been releasing their own UFO files that shows that UFOs are not only real, but under intelligent control, as noted by them and look what you posted!

You were not even aware that scientist and engineers in the Roswell area were also tracking flying saucers and documenting their work for all to see, and look what you posted.



Speaking of the Soviets, the Air Force noted their attempts to shoot down flying saucers as well. You can find that fact in the Air Force's own science book it used at the Air Force Academy.

You would be surprised what you will find on the other side of the door, but yo have to open that door first and some skeptic refuse to do so and why they end up on the wrong side of the fence when the door is opened by government revelations and documents as currently being done.

And, read the official documents I had provided to find why you are now on the wrong side of the fence.