It is unlikely since brainwashing means thought reform or reeducation. How can you change the thoughts of your own child they are a blank slate? How can you reeducate your own child when they have no education to begin with? Your view demonstrates you do not know understand the definition either.

Your view is also one that employs histrionics often. Exaggeration to prove a point. Using brainwashing in terms of Christianity is a case in point.



It is definitely within the purview of this thread. Her views have repeatedly given me the impression and continue to that they are not coming from someone on the level.




The benefit of the doubt was given but when they claim they are in a field yet do not recognize a valid concept within that field it becomes vastly in question. By this point there is no reason to believe her claims. It is unlikely her views are coming from someone in religious studies or philosophy. Very unlikely.

This has nothing to do with defending or attacking someone over beliefs. It is about the content of their posts and the delivery of their posts. It is easy to accept the most intolerant views and offer your view as balance but not so easy to accept views which seem non-authentic.

Scientism is a philosophical term and any student of religious studies should not be oblivious or act oblivious to it. If someone claims they never heard of it, then claims it is only religious propaganda, then changes it a bit and claims it only a theological term, is quite telling. It is very telling actually and very doubtful they are a student of religion and philosophy.

It is also obvious not many engage in the negative forms of scientism and only a minority do. An extremist minority.

I won't offer complete definitions but this is from the wiki article:







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

And who are these people?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Stenmark



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_R._Peterson

So I do not think anyone would accept the word of some stranger online that claims they are a student of religious studies and philosophy when we have actual people, more than these two mentioned above, in these fields making claims that she somehow not only disagrees with but has never heard of.

I think this topic can be dropped and it should be noted that I am only responding. But if and when I see someone engaging in such tactics that employ scientism it is fair to call them on it. If someone makes statements then changes them it is also fair to mention it. If someone claims certain credentials and somehow does not demonstrate them but demonstrates the lack of them then others will likely, regardless on which forum or sub-forum on U-M it takes place, it could be someone claiming they are Professor Xenu from 2032 on the Ancient Conspiracy or Extraterrestrial forums, but someone will question it. It could be someone claiming their expertise is religious studies and philosophy as well.

Aren't you doing the same thing over in the "Misquoting Jesus" thread? You know, I've called you out on this sort of thing before, and I think Lt. Ripley has too. ::shrugs:: Whatever, they're your views Clovis, it doesn't make a whole hill of beans to me what anyone else believes. Im just saying...

I am studying judiasm now and will continue through the summer... (from 2 perspectives the intellectual , and the historical now I am early in it and have much to learn ....DR. Mklsgl who is my dear friend is jewish and is helping/guiding me alot he also has many jewish scholars as friends can't og wrong there...lol . I think if DR. MklSgl says they do not use punishment and fear in judasim its worth considering....I am not ready to sign on the judiasm uses punishment dotted line on this one just yet....


if i am gonna learn about Judiasm it behooves me to know as much about it from as many perspectives as possible???? may i ask your sources???? for my own understanding....

thankyou for clarifying your posit it makes alot more sense now.....

You are now going radically off topic and not discussing someones views or the presentation of those views or even doubting those views or claims...if you have any questions feel free to PM me.

While my wife & I are both Pagans we still walk two very different baths. We have talked about how to raise our child when we have them & I believe that you should talk about this before you decide to have them. We have agreed to raise our child in the basics of Pagan belifes while we will teach them these ideas we will in no way force or tell them to worship the deites that we do. I know my wifes grandmother will take him/her to church as kids either or not the they feel that path is for them will always be left to them to decide. We do plan to anwser all thier questions as honestly as we can even if we do not agree with thier choices it is up to them to decide.

dude get over it...

the response to your post, not just regarding christians, but everyone, is that this is relative...

those that claim to hold "the truth" are being deceitful.

those that claim "to not be brainwashing " are being deceitful.

the truth is they hold "a truth" or "the truth as they see it", just as they are really "brainwashed" to that which does not violate their views".

(remember 2+2=4 because of a system we constructed and control which is rather different than systems we neither constructed nor control)


Clovis , brainwashing a child is the easiest thing in the world why do you think religion is introduced so early in some sects... it creates a lifetime follower and warrior for the faithful.....

Ok lets look at this brainwashing thing a little closer. Children are not a blank slate. From the moment they come into this world they are learning. They are grouping their thoughts from the very beginning. They are educating themselves.

What is the education they are getting? Well it is proof based and it is rather simple. Cry and you get attention, food or whatever. Action equals something happening. Can any parent chime in on this? A baby will learn to cry for no other reason than to get attention, correct? I know both my brother, sister, girlfirends niece and two cousins of mine did this. They learn this.

Then other proof based things are learned. What causes pain. What causes laughter. What causes mom and dad to get mad. Sounds and gestures mean things etc.

Now what am I getting at? Well exactly what I described earlier here. We teach children and children learn on a proof based system. Action equals reaction. This equals that. Do this, that happens. Then comes the curveball. Something that works exactly the opposite of everything they learned. Religion. It takes that proof based system and turns it on its head. No longer do the same rules of action and reaction apply. Proof is no where to be seen. Yet they are expected to accept religion the same way they are expected to accept dont touch the hot stove and a myriad of other things. Your are throwing a curveball at someone who can barely even reach the tee.

Even if we look beyond this proof based learning system kids seem to use we have this. Mom and Dad are a childs world. They are the gateway to everything out there. There are the ones who keep us safe from harm, feed us and generally take care of us. Everything they teach you is the truth. They teach you because its real. They show you everything they can. They teach you everything they can but they have to use examples and proof for you to understand it. Then they slip you a mickey. Something they can not show you or ever prove to you. Everything else is true that they have told you, why not these stories about some invisible god?

According to this chart http://www.babycenter.com/0_milestone-char...nths_1496591.bc it is only at 24 months does an advanced child begin to understand abstract concepts. What can get more abstract than faith in an invisible deity?

This is just it. 24 months until SOME children BEGIN to understand abstract concepts. Religious indoctrination begins right after birth. I dont know about anyone else here but I was a Christian before I could wipe my own bum. Hell I was Christian before I even knew anything else beyond crying. Then I matured. There was no questioning. There was no thought. Faith, religion and God just was and had, for me, always been. Its the same way in households around the world.

Children are made to believe before being given a choice. A parent consciously teaches a child something that goes against the very nature of how children learn. A parent uses their "superiority" over that child and that childs trust to make that child believe in something that can not be proven. Is that not brainwashing?

Despite the parents reasons, despite the parents faith and despite society accepting religion.....is this not brainwashing?

Kevin A.

Clovis, why is it that I look up Scientism, but I don't find any names? Who are these people who adhere to the philosophy of "scientism". Can you come up with any names?
Why don't we compare "scientism" to religious extremism.

First of all, I researched Scientism, and I came across this little ditty of an article. Here is the link.
The title of this article is Carl Sagan: Prophet of Scientism, written by David N. Menton, Ph.d, from the Missouri Association for Creation. Huh, the Missouri Association for Creation. Isn't that interesting. David Menton is, in fact, on the AiG website, of all places, where he is given a place of high esteem.

Here is how our Dr. Menton describes "Scientism".

It sounds like Dr. Menton is trying to put a strange label on Atheism. The religion of Scientism? The religion of Secular Humanism? Last I checked, Secular Humanism is not a religion. Wikipedia describes Secular Humanism as:

If you take a look at the bold you will see that Secular Humanism is clearly set apart from religion. It has no religious bearing. Its a philosophy, not a religion. Anyways, continuing on.
The question I have Clovis, is ok, so here we have scientism. So who are these people that adhere to "scientism?" Why is it that when I research "scientism", the only things that come up are either dictionary definitions or ludicrous articles about men long dead written by zealots like Herr Doktor Menton?

Lets take a look at the stats, shall we? You yourself described scientism as "extremist minority". I'm not sure whether you meant it was an extremely small minority or just an extreme minority. I suppose its applicable in either case since I can't find any adherents to "scientism". In any case, it is very obvious that whoever these people are that adhere to "scientism" are indeed an extremely small minority. But what about Biblical Creationists? How many of these zealots are there out there, Clovis?
According to the Pew Research Center: Link
In America, 42% of people believe that Animals exist in their present form only, i.e. no natural selection.
In America, 44% of people believe that God created the world in 6 days.
42 and 44 percent? Thats anything but a small minority. Extreme? Yes. Minority? No.

That was a lot of writing to actually say nothing.


nor, I want to preface this by sating that I am just curious, I am not trying to attack you or your beliefs so if it in any way comes across like that, please credit it to poor writing and not bad intentions. Do you think your beliefs are the best beliefs you could have? The best values to try to live your life by? If they are not, then why do you follow/subscribe to them? If you do, then why would you not want your child to know the truth?

I am going to attempt another analogy to explain why this attitude baffles me.

Let's say you go to a new city and you have an appointment with a doctor the next day at 3PM. So, you decide to look for the building just to insure that you will not miss it. So, you first just drive around trying to find the building, but it's a big city and you really have no idea where it can be.

So, you decide to stop and ask for directions (Please understand as a guy in good standing I have no idea what this means at all, but I have heard some people (women) actually will ask someone for how to get somewhere), but it turns out that as you try to follow the directions you ge frustrated and confused and still have no idea where the building might be, so you stop and buy a map.

Once you figure out where you are, you quickly find the building on the map, and are able to drive there. Once you arrive at te building, you go in and talk to the person at the reception desk and they verify this is the correct building and even gives you instructions about what elevator bank to take and how to get to the right office.

So then you walk out of the building and decide that maybe you misread the map and this was not the right building. So you decide that maybe the building across the street is the right one, so you walk over there, and find that it is not the right building, so you decide to walk a couple of blocks farther down to see if you find the right building, but still can't find it.

While you're walking around, you run into someone who seems to be looking for something too. The person tells you they are actually looking for the same building you are looking for. You lend them your map, and notice they are holding the map in a different way from the way you did, but you decide that maybe they just have a different way of doing things and then you follow them as they set off. Needless to say, you don't "find" the right building.

Would anyone actually do this?

No, of course not! So, then why would anyone "find" the truth and then decide maybe there was another truth and disregard the fact that they had found it? Or why would they allow someone else to go looking for the "truth" on teir own instead of guiding them to the truth?

Unfortunately, all this truth talk really boils down to an individuals truth eventually. I hate when any religion says pretentious stuff like, "My way is the true way". Implying of course, all others are false.

While I'm here...
Just because your in California, your flavor of Christianity is really no different than anyone else's. Just another misconception. It irritates me.

Oh, by the way, I live in Florida. We're all tan and Jewish...

Bravo.....

When my daughter who's quite intelligent for her age, was old enough to question God and what/who is He ?? And where is He ??, I was honest enough to say I don't really know myself......I also told her I don't believe in the Christian god as such but that A God might exist, one that we might meet when we pass on.......

Of course when she's older and decides to 'investigate' God and the Bible and she finds a connection (which I haven't yet), that's fine too......I won't impose my agnostic views on her and will support her fully.....I think it's quite normal for kids to be guided and influenced by their parents as children but will inevitably find their own identity and ideas as they mature.....

And that's the God-honest truth.....

Ooooops double post.....

and old!

Zing!

To me, brainwashing is simply putting a kid subject to different things that no longer give the child much of a choice to believe otherwise. If you keep on bashing it into a kids head that God DOES exist, and that the bible IS truth, they won't have much of a choice to believe otherwise.

We are really tan here also lol and liberal.. its not persoanl its what it is..we have to be we'd havae a rough go otherwise....very diverse...XD

But Shaun, eventually they grow up and get out into the world and meet other people with different ideas, who will probably influence them and they might start to question everything they were told about God and the Bible........As a teenager or young adult, they'll start to think for themselves and can then decide if they're on the right path (for them) or change paths or give up God altogether......

As long as they don't belong in the WBC family, they should be fine.....

Sure they will... eventually. You did. I did. We all did. Why? Because we all grew up and took responsibility for our choices and decisions.

Now, I'm assuming that your family made it difficult for you to believe other than what you were taught, that is unfortunate. I think that could be where the real argument is.

I am sorry but most of the outspoken aithiests on this thread state that they grew up christians. Sounds to me that they had a choice.

Although I'm sure this happens somewhere, I doubt it is very prevalent.

I mean, HOW do you bash into someone that God does exist? No one bashed it into me, I experienced God's presence,

I constantly experience His presence and reality, at best I can tell my kids that, but I can't bash it into them. I would be bashing them into telling me they knew God was real but they would be saying that only because they would think that's what I wanted to hear, but I would not actually be "coercing" them into knowing God.

wow mum you made the jump to agnostism...I am with you lady i honestly do not find in my studies reason to sign on any dotted line....more now then ever..i just don't' see it..and that is my truth... I concur with your post kids start questioning early I think its natural and should be encouraged..........

Just being around people who will constantly talk, walk and act as if it's fact that God exists, is enough to have it hardwired into your brain. I've experienced it myself, and I rarely ever went to church.

Explain how you experience God.



Obviously. No one said they didn't. The journey from becoming a Christian to becoming an Atheists is a pretty god damn hard one.



Nope. It was just hard to let go of something that I held as truth most of my life. So I was extremely biased against any counter arguements.

The journey from baptist to catholic is just as hard for the same reasons.

Compare the amount of people who were raised as Christian, and are still Chrisitan, to the amount of people who were raised Christian, and are now Atheist. Then, look over what I said ealier, and it all becomes clear. You're trying to tell me that if my theory is correct, then ALL people raised Christian must stay Christians, which is not the case at all. Even people who become stuck in cults, will sometimes find their way out.



And your point is? That actually somewhat reinforces my idea. You're raised one, so you're biased agains the other.

you know Shaun I wanted to say that, what you went through it was not a picnic...i remember hon....

i truly didn't think you were gonna make it either but you know this....you out to be commended..


why would we want to do this to our children make it so hard for them when we really dont know anyways. this is the saddest thing to me.........and that is the real truth.....

Inner space has an amazing thread on god sightings and visions and claims of knowing god that she has researched in the field of nuresceince if you haven't read it you'd like it ..

Welcome to the club... it's called LIFE.

We ALL have experienced this in some form or another. We always will, we always have, that will never change. It won't be the first time you'll have to let go of something that you believed true all your life. Prepare yourself for it.

But this can, and should be avoided. Especially when people are pointing it out to you. And it is directly caused by the parents in most cases.

Well Shaun, I'll tell ya, I wasn't raised to believe much of anything really. Grew up with basically no rules, encouraged to do my own thing, and "learn everything" ... There was no leash on what I could or could not believe or learn. I had(have) some pretty hippy trippy parents. It was quite a shock when I finally grew up and realized that the way I was raised was WAY over idealistic. It was even more of a shock when I realized that people would tell me what to do and think my entire life.

I chose to raise my own child unconventionally, however, I did install more foundation than my folks ever did. I'm sure she'll have her complaints about me and my methods as well (in fact, I know she does)

Shaun, it's not pretty regardless of which way you were raised. That's part of what's wrong with society ... we want to blame everything on everyone rather than just accepting that stuff happens and it's time to move on.

I grew up at the end of the spectrum that you're describing... it was no better than if I'd grown up in a church or ashram (in my folks case) when I was a kid. It ALL has its pitfalls.

So we should out law parents then

Are you going to reply to my ealier post, danielost? And who said we should outlaw parents. That would be the most illogical solution. We should be aware of how we affect our kids, and be fair to let them be able to choose something as important as one's beliefs on their own, as long as we don't allow them to put harm on others.

They do choose their own beliefs ... just like you did. Sure, painful for you, I get that. It was painful when I realized my parents had been hurting my health all my life with their whacked vegan diets, obtuse medical practices, and lack of good basic rules.

So, when I had my kid, I decided I wasn't going to make the same mistakes... and I didn't... I made different ones that are probably just as earth rocking.

Get over it. Parents screw up ALL the time... if it's not religion they screw up on, it will be something else... maybe something worse.

I missed the earlier post and your the one who said negitive things about parents.

Shaun, I know you're not a parent yet and believe me, when you do become one you'll probably feel differently.....Most decent parents want what's best for their kids and it's only natural to teach your children to 'think' or 'feel' (lack of better words) like yourself......If I was passionate about God and the Bible, my child would be as well......

If you have racist/bigoted parents, then unfortunately the children will be affected by this negative environment and copy/mimic the parents......Unfortunately, you get the good with the bad.....

Anyway Shaun, cheer up, your parents could have been strict vegans and taught you your whole life that 'MacDonald's is the enemy'.......

Hi MissMels,

I posted my reply to Shaun before I read this sweetie.....Please don't take offense, it wasn't directed to your situation in no way shape or form....

Before I became an Atheist, I had no choice(Well, of course there was a small possibility, but let's talk reasonably) but to be a Christian. You know, you can use those same arguements to say that a person who finally broke free from a cult was never brainwashed to begin with, simply because they finally changed their beliefs.

But to make one thing clear, my main point was that children who have parents who believe in God, the odds are that they will believe in it too, and therefore make many biased assumptions about things in the world. Hence, leading them to believing that God is actually working in their lives, when it is nothing more than pure chance, luck, coicidence, etc. That's why I dislike when Christians use personal experiences as arguements. Well, that's just one reason! XD

Usually. Both of my parents are bigoted one is racist my brothers and I are not nor were we ever affected by it.

In my opinion, it is easier to realize that you are hurting people with racism, more so than it is to realize that you have no reason to believe in a God. You go along with believing in God, without it affecting you in any profound way. And of course, many children to follow in their parents foot steps when it comes to racism.

My parents were mormons, my stepgrandmother went to a protastant church we went with sometimes. My grandmother didn't go to church unless my father twisted her arm.

My parents were mormons, my stepgrandmother went to a protastant church we went with sometimes. My grandmother didn't go to church unless my father twisted her arm.

Ohhh, I couldn't be mad at the truth darlin'! LOL. I was taught McD's was evil and the enemy. Of course, I still think that so no harm no foul. LOL.

Make no mistake, my folks are ODD beyond belief, they are also awesome. They didn't get it right raising us girls, they know it. We've all moved on... they're still whacky vegans, yoga doin', naval contemplatin' people. They're also the absolute best people I know. I don't agree with them a lot of the time, have had to hold my turf with them on occasion... but, I wouldn't trade 'em in for new parents, or trade their mistakes or successes either.

And, my sister and I were raised atheists more or less. Hmmm... I can tell you neither of us are atheists now. She's Catholic. I'm Quaker. Trust me, my parents about had heart failure when my sister converted to the Catholic church. They got over it pretty quick... but that flicker of "Oh NO!" ran around the family coconut telegraph for a day or so.

It goes both ways... you just don't hear about the opposite like my case very often because very few people to date have been raised without religion.

Well good for you danielost, it worked out alright then....



You're a good sport.....I reckon your parents did something right, they produced YOU didn't they ??

While I respect your opinion, I still don't see how it discredits my point. Of course there will be some cases where we don't take after our parents, I'd agree to that. But religion is a more serious issue, especially with the recent debates regarding it. It makes you want to hold onto it that much more. God is a large subject, something that intense is more likely to stay with a kid than something smaller, like a parents likes or dislikes regarding more simple things such as music, cars, etc.

Why do you put so much faith in sight? In judaism, just because you see something doesn't mean its true.


I didn't say I would "convince them to attribute things to God.


Apparantly I can't get you to understand what I mean by "show". That is unfortunate.


I didn't say "use". That makes it sound like a weapon. Within it, Judaism has an aspect of punishment...


If your going to learn about Judaism, learn about it from Jewish scholars, from people who adhere to Judaism. When I say Judaism, I mean Orthodox Judaism. You wanna learn true unfiltered unpolluted Judaism, learn from an Orthodox Rabbi. Learning from non-Jewish perspectives is like trying to understand American law from a Chinese farmer.



My head, I study with scholars and learn from them. I listen to the words of the wise men of Israel, both past and present.




Ironic, because at an early age, not teaching a child basic foundations of life is like child abuse. It's like saying "Why not let children decide to ride around without seatbelts?" or "Why should we teach our kids to be careful walking across the street?" After all, shouldn't such important decisions be left for the child to decide?

Even though this isn't directed to me, I wanted to respond just the same, from a mum's POV................

Yes, I most certainly agree that by not teaching your child the basic tools he/she needs to protect themselves is tantamount to child abuse......That's what the role of the parent is besides cuddling them to death (which is what I like to do ), we have to educate them in living and dealing with the real world.......BUT I personally don't see how religion or God or the Bible is considered a basic tool/foundation of life, unless the parent is a religious person to begin with......

There are plenty of atheists/agnostics etc, who are raising their kids responsibly and properly without bringing God and religion into the equation........

Yes, it's important to wear your seatbelt, it's imperative to take care crossing the street, you need to beware of strangers and their candy and wash your hands after using the toilet but IMO it's not vital to know about God.....

This might offend you and others but it's how I feel......

I don't think it's like that at all .Their life can depend on teaching them about seatbelts and crossing the road but it doesn't when teaching religion


fullywired

My sarcasm was totally lost apparently.............................
Let me go a step further...
I lived in California for several years, and felt right at home. My youngest son was actually born there...and just because I lived there and loved it, does NOT mean I am any certain type of person, or I hold any special POV.

The more you talk about your studies the more it puts them in doubt. Unless you are being schooled at a madrasah in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or Pakistan your lack of a mindset that incorporates diversity reveals much. Either way the more you keep mentioning 'your studies' the greater the disbelief is they exist. If you are simply unable to offer your opinion without mentioning that as reinforcement constantly it just seems like you are using that as an attempt to have others validate your own opinions. Most others though look for genuine mindsets not ones clamoring that they are some authority in order to be believed. You lack that.

Now naturally it is best to allow your child to question, I was allowed to, so are the majority of Americans. So I do agree with at least half of your statement. People should be free to choose what they wish though and to teach their children with just as much freedom.



Just because you have internalized this struggle within you and it has deeply affected your psyche is no reason to project this outwards onto society. Just because you have made a value judgment of the worth of religion, both in terms of personal and societal benefits, and you find it offers none, does not negate the fact millions simply find it benefits both.



Also just because you think in terms of 'solutions' imparts the fact that you think in terms of 'conflict' and once again not everyone thinks in such terms. Ever notice how some people get on fine in life but others always have a reason to complain about certain facets of their life ranging from such small matters such as their vehicles to more broad ranging ones such as their career choices? Life is 10% what happens and 90% how you take it.



You are not making a biased assumption against Christianity? This is not about which is better, Christianity or agnosticism or atheism, this is simply about finding folly in the belief that only Christianity is biased, while agnosticism or atheism is not, whatever the case may be, they all entail their own set of biases. To state other wise is clues the reader in that your own biases are blinding you. The best course of action is always to realize bias exists in any position, even those that claim they are free of bias, they are then biased in another direction, bias is natural, so are prejudices, more knowledge usually moves away from that model but they still exists and while prejudices might become diminished the bias just changes form, the only thing that is disagreeable is acting on such which is discrimination.

You are using your own personal experience as an argument as well...and well most people are not arguing with you they are simply offering balance when you lack none. A parent who is atheist, agnostic, Christian, or does not even consider labels, is free to raise their children as they wish. That is balance. You do not hear Christians bemoaning the fact that you might some day raise a child and contaminate them with your own bias...why? Because they recognize that everyone has the fundamental right to believe as they wish and raise their children in a similar fashion. They might not recognize that if they did complain about your agnostic, or is it atheist, bias in raising your child that all they would be revealing is your own bias.



To compare racism to religion is a straw man. In fact most will recognize the civil rights movement within America made use of religion to defeat the most drastic forms of racism. The civil rights leaders were highly religious to a degree. If we go further in history we could also see that religion was used as an excuse to justify the conquering of the 'heathen' indigenous and to take their lands and then after that it was used to justify slavery. But since then and since the civil rights movement we can see how it has been used in humanitarian efforts to help set up orphanages, clinics, and other social services not only in cities across America but in vast places across the foreign field.

What does this tell someone who is incorporating all these examples into their world view? That religion is neutral and it is the people who are not and use it for either bad or good. But to select one example and ignore the rest confers on the one doing so that they lack a balanced perspective and without they are unable to make an informed opinion.



Your point is not discredited it simply is not accepted by others. Religion to many is not even a serious issue, I consider many to simply be irreligious, they do not label themselves as such, they do not use labels like atheist or agnostic either, they simply do not care because their career or what's on TV tonight is more important.

The recent debates are dominated by two minorities, both outspoken, both fundamentalist in their own right, and I have yet to see someone appear in this thread that mirrors your position, they all have balanced views, understand that it is unfortunate your experiences, but that that example does not hold true for others.

But since you are so engaged in such debates and claim that those on one side are wanting to hold onto their position much more that in itself applies to the other side as well. Both sides of that stale debate are more biased than the general population.




It is not offensive. And you are right that there are plenty of people raising their children just fine without any introduction of God. It is also true that there are many raising their children just fine without an introduction against God and that can include parents who simply believe or simply do not. So it is not vital to know about God and it is also not vital to attempt to pass on the need to discredit God either to your child. No, the only offensive thing is when one person, regardless if they are believers or not, attempt to tell other parents how they should raise their children, or speak in terms that teaching your child to believe or not to believe is abuse.

Absolutely agree with this statement Clovis......

I'm in full agreement with Mum on this one, great post Clovis.