Carolyn Porco, a senior research scientist at the Space Science Institute in Boulder, Colo.,


. “We should let the success of the religious formula guide us,” Dr. Porco said. “Let’s teach our children from a very young age about the story of the universe and its incredible richness and beauty. It is already so much more glorious and awesome — and even comforting — than anything offered by any scripture or God concept I know.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/21/science/21belief.html?8dpc

I agree, His creation says everything we need to know about Him in a much fuller and more beautiful way than we can ever hope to describe in writing... you just have to be willing to open your eyes and your heart to the Message.

At the least the threat of being separated from God is not a fear tactic?


BTW: In your sig the link Religious Repite.....should it be spelled "Religious Respite" with an > s <?

Anyone actualy watched these two yet?
I'd be particularly interested to hear the opinions of the more 'overtly religious' posters on this board in regard to these two films.
In keeping with the nature of the thread,they do make quite an alarming example of the practise of indoctrinating/conditioning/brainwashing of young children by organised religious cults/sects/groups.

While I think its up to the parents, I don't think religious indoctrination like whats shown in Jesus Camp is a very good idea... Of course, our resident Christians will probably agree with me when I say that Becky Fischer is an extremist and has a rather... skewed... theology.

If I tell you that eating a tomato grown in Florida will give you Salmonella am I threatening you? No, I'm merely telling you what the outcome of your actions will be. Similarly, telling you that making decisions in a self-interested manner will result in separation from God is not a threat, it's merely a statement of the outcome of your actions.





I agree with church, what you are seeing in those videos is fringe activity and is in no way representative of the how most Christians teach their children. I have been a Christian for over 26 years and have participated in many Youth-related events in several different churches, several different countries, sponsored by various denominations and have never experienced anything like the type of indoctrination seen in those videos, and neither has my son who has also been very active in youth activities.

Karl, we've all seen those videos which is why no one is commenting on them; they've been discussed and beaten to death.

There are alarming examples of all kinds of behavior out there... this is just one. (yes, 99.9% of UM'ers found both horrifying).

Jesus Camp I'd be willing to say is borderline brainwashing. But I won't go as far to say that it's the full meal deal, I don't have enough information to make that determination one way or another. Brainwashing has a very specific definition. I know someone who was brainwashed by a cult; her experience was far more horrifying than what we seen in Jesus Camp if you can believe that.

I do lean towards resonsibiblity and accountability but its on the parents Shaun, they should seek to know better and they should seek to get outside their box and really truly consider whats best for their kid and it may just mean setting aside thier own 'truths'...and it may be just mean hearing something they don't want to hear...they are the adult i think people forget this ...I od not advocate blame or hatred yet issues left unreseolved often lead to this.....IMO...We get pissed at times we clear the air we move on its the most nautral thing in the world its when we don't do that we have an issue.... .IMO

I find not enough put in the time that is needed to be an effective parent.. will you make mistakes hell yes, and when you do you will make it right with your kid first and foremost... As guides we seek to encourage self correcting adults who can adapt and learn from experince. they best are served if they have guides that model this....
the parenting now is child centered like all things as a parent perhaps has to keep up on this keep informed....IMO

you are a very bright young man and I know you know all this...probably things that would help me lol .

part of the healing proces is venting its in that you'll come to new understandings and move on..........

thats all it is.. brainwashing.. why do you think religion has survived all these years?

you see religion and its teach creates a box that puts you inside of it and it tells you that every other theory/ religion is irrelevant.
but once you step outside that box you see that this control was held by strings for shackles.
religion is not worth it at all..

Rom. 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So if I disobey....I have a death sentence pronounced on me.....OK I agree thats not a threat

I would call Jesus Camp as a form of indoctrination, coercive persuasion, and definitely socialization. It does not qualify as brainwashing.



Nice post SS and I definitely agree that resentment is bad. What I most agreed with, and perhaps this was not your point at all, but too many parents do not even spend much time at all rearing their children. My main concern is not what a parent teaches their children, that is between the parent and child and no one else's concern IMHO, but my main concern is the parent teaching them anything? Through quality time, through example, through reinforcing conversation...in America the answer is sadly not enough when considering the whole of the populace I believe.




Now you are just making arguments against the Bible itself. Not everyone has to follow it. If you do not that does not apply to you. It is also talking about spiritual death which means a disconnection from God. It is hardly a death sentence.

I'd agree with that.

But as most people know around here, I don't like the use of strong words, with very specific meanings, thrown around lightly. It's my pet peeve. Of course, I'm a Technical Communications major, so I suppose it's not too surprising that it would bother me. LOL.

thanyou clovis, you interpreted me just fine....I am pleased as a parent that we are changing our approach to how we guide its more child centered and i concur they need our time and lots of it......very good post also

PA 6:23
For the consequence of walking over a 2000-foot high cliff is death; but to turn aside when I say "Watch out, there's a cliff" is life

Death is the natural consequence for sin (for me, "hell" is a second and complete death - not eternal punishment or separation), just as death is the natural consequence of walking over a 2000-foot high cliff. Is my statement that you are walking over a cliff face (assuming we were hiking together, that is) a threat????? To turn away from the cliff face and walk the other direction is salvation in the same way as Jesus has offered salvation by turning towards him.

Ahh, but to the religious person, teaching your child about your religion is just the same as teaching them about wearing a seatbelt, and taking care while crossing the street. Just because beliefs are involved doesn't mean that its any less important to the religious person.

In the eyes of the religious, the spirituality (soul) is a part of the human makeup, to ignore that soul would be the same as ignoring a child's physical health. The fact that some may not believe in the soul, doesn't mean that the religious person feels he should allow the child to pick how to develop his/her soul. It's like...a child might have a tumor and may need to go to get surgery. Do we allow for the child to decide who he wants to do the surgery? Or whether or not he even wants the surgery at all? It is the same for the religious person who cares about the well-being and development of the child's soul...



It does for the religious person. In Deuteronomy 30:12-15 God says (when speaking about the Torah) "I set before you this day life and good, death and evil."

For me, as well as many other religious people, it is a matter of life and death. Not physical life or death, nor even spiritual life or death. But more so the kind of death that cowards go through many times. It is a lack of spiritual substance, and being left with a searching unquenched spirit.

I believe that a lot of the ideas here (ie, let the child find his/her own religion) stem from the fact that a lot of people have been raised without a solid spiritual foundation and ended up having to find it on their own. Thus, they consider this to be the best way because that's how they did it.


Not at all. I'm not sure if you're in America or not, but right now there's kind of a thing to get men to get screened for prostate cancer. Would you say that the doctors are using fear tactics? After all, their saying you MIGHT have cancer, and if you do it could KILL you. They're saying that the only way to know is to go through their little screening method. If you do it could save your life. Are they using fear tactics?

One of the many roles of religion is to be like a doctor to the soul. It exposes the problem through examination, and provides a remedy to that problem. It doesn't always have a solution, but neither do doctors always have the solution. Religion is the science of the soul.

[quote name='~Kaizen CJM~' date='Jun 12 2008, 05:15 PM' post='2341771']




It does for the religious person. In Deuteronomy 30:12-15 God says (when speaking about the Torah) "I set before you this day life and good, death and evil."

For me, as well as many other religious people, it is a matter of life and death. Not physical life or death, nor even spiritual life or death. But more so the kind of death that cowards go through many times. It is a lack of spiritual substance, and being left with a searching unquenched spirit.

I




That's my whole point,Your saddling that child with all your own personal baggage to carry through life



fullywired

Not at all. I would be teaching the child how to handle the problems that he/she will come across on his/her spiritual journey. If I leave my child without direction, who knows which way he/she should go. That is potentially dangerous because there are harmful philosophies and ideologies out there. I would merely be helping the child in spiritual development.

I'm going to quote myself, from this thread, since this is going in circles. Too many of you do not realize there is a different between consequences and threats, socialization and conversion, that sort of thing. And it's not just a matter of semantics. Some of these differences are important. Continually implying that religion is brainwashing, is the same as saying it is an intended form of evil. If I wish to brainwash you, that's bad. If any religions intent is to brainwash, that's bad. But brainwashing and socializing, or converting, or swaying ones position, is NOT the same as brainwashing. The same goes for consequences being called threats. There is a huge difference, and it is being IGNORED to support an anti-religion campaign.

Carry-on.

There is a difference between showing some one the direction and dragging them down the road



fullywired

No there isn't. What one parent says is dragging another says is showing. What one parent says is showing another says is giving no direction.

A person cannot be dragged down the road of a religion.

PA said it better than I could have. Thanks, Bud (that's "Mate" in Texan).


This is assuming that if you don't teach your child your values it is actually going to manage to get through life without picking up someone else's which--those of us who've raised children know--is utterly ridiculous. Children learn by repeating or emulating the adults around them. So, if you're not teaching your child the values you consider important, you're not actually allowing them to choose on their own, you are just allowing someone else to teach them values, because they are going to learn them from someone... in later years they may divest themselves of some or all of those values (just as they might divest themselves of the ones you teach them), but they WILL emulate the values practiced by someone around them.

No worries, mate lol, just noticed that I wrote "thread" instead of "threat" - I'll edit my above post, but it should read "Is my statement that you are walking over a cliff face (assuming we were hiking together, that is) a threat????? "

Does anyone else see the root problem here being the natural or normal tendency to instill in your children YOUR values and beliefs? I mean, isn't that NORMAL?
Talking about some sort of forceful conversion of some pre-teen or early teenager from an established set of beliefs to another is another story altogether. But when it comes to YOUR kids, you try to teach them YOUR values, the ones that you hope led you down a happy, healthy, successful road. Right?
So how have we evolved to just trashing religion? I don't get it. How could a MUSLIM raising his kids to be MUSLIM be bad? Or an Atheist raising their kids as an Atheist? I don't see the debate.

Psssst
Rom. 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I was talking about (per Christian belief) the spiritual life/death

A threat is a threat....conditions set on behavior

That has nothing to do with what we were talking about. My point was that the child does not have much of a choice, which is unfair. Not whether or not religion has a bad effect on people.



I'm not the one who brought racism into the discussion. And I don't see where the strawman lies. I'm not trying to put you in any type of position you're not supporting. I compared the two in regards to how likely the child will grow up without a specific quality of the parent. Be it racism, belief in God, etc. NOT if religion was as bad as racism.



Something that can't be proven to be true, should not be brought around a child long enough to convince them to believe it. It's not fair, and they should be given a better chance to decide for themselves.



Why do you put so much faith in your experiences with God? just because you experience something, does not make it true.



You won't be doing it directly, or at least knowingly. But if this "Show the child God" is not the same thing as proving that God exists in an emperical way, then you still have nothing. You can't GIVE your child an experience, such as seeing, or hearing God. And, if it is actual proof you're talking about, you can go ahead and show me too! You teach kids about science by showing them in a manner that proves these things exist, not just from one viewpoint, but all, not convince them to look at it a certain way, or interprate things a certain way, so that it appears God exists. Which is what you seem to be implying when you say "Show them God".



A belief in a God is not a necessary foundation of life. Many Atheists live in society and have no problems at all. Belief in God should be the child's choice, and they should be allowed to make a clear choice, not one affected by years and years of being around people saying "God is real!".

[/rant]

You know I really feel its important to understand and obtain a clear understanding of the shades of value concepts, i really don't think many really look at values from this posit let alone teach their kids how to do this ......A child will be better served if they develop a deep understanding of the question of values..... especailly questions regarding the basic nature of value..... i also think a child is well served if they understand that values in life are a choice....


you teach them what value means..a child that is not encouraged to question , esepcially authority or the values of their guides will not know how to make choices that are of value this is the the thing that most parents find the hardest as well as society .........therefore they set their kids and themselves up for the issue they have.......as parents its how we teach this that creates the problem not the 'right" or wrong values we teach...




many can't answer how do we know right from wrong, what is value and what makes it worthy of our time and effort to begin with many do not ask this question..many do not who are in relgious constructs address religous beleif ,in this ocntext.... is the beleif rational what is evidential rationality? what is pragmatic rationality? its assumed its valueable no questions asked. what does this teach therein lies the answer.........It is very important to talk of values independently of religion esepcilaly to our children for their sake........
does a beleif have pragmatic benefits if it doesn't it will not hold up and remember motivation, motivation is key.... .. there is no compelling conceptual argument and no scientific evidence god exists so the question of religious beleif as a value remains open........

for many religions action in this life is rewarded or punished the value is in making the right choices for right action not good results based on the situation .....


the reason i don't feel Religion is a very good model is not the relgion itself but the way it imparts value.. i am as anyone I want my child to make good choices so i teach him how to do this not tell him what these choices should be I want to equip him for the many value shades he will encounter......

You're right, and I don't base my beliefs on my experiences. I base them on logic. I don't like saying that to people like you because you guys get angry because you don't see my logic.


Again, you are about 3000 miles away from me, and "showing" the child would involve more than a one time flashy encounter.



It is to the religious person.


To me, not believing in God is a problem in and of itself. Not to mention that the Atheist would lack basic spiritual foundation and nourishment.


Tell me, why should I let my child decide whether or not to make that choice?

No. It still see it as a threat. Here is why to use your analogy as a basis. There is just no single cliff to avoid. It is like you are stuck on a several thousand high foot plateau with no chance of escape. All that there is life on top of this plateau, a single door, a tattered old book and a shear drop all around to nasty jagged spiked rocks. Some people end their lives by walking through the door supposedly. Others get pushed off the plateau by some unseen force and may or may not spend eternity flailing around on the sharp jagged rocks. Now, you are going about your life on top of this plateau when you come across this book. It states that this guy, Jesus, walked through the door long ago to save us all from being pushed and landing on the rocks. The only thing we have to do is worship his father and follow a convoluted set of archaic rules. Following such guidelines allows us a pass to walk through the door and he promises us eternal paradise is on the other side. Be warned though, not worshiping his father will get you pushed off the cliff at a time of his fathers choosing and you may or may not flail around on the jagged rocks for all of eternity. No one is quite sure about that. Oh and this book also says his father is not only the rule maker and the cosmic score keeper, he is also the one that set up the whole plateua, door and jagged rocks thing in the first place.

Worship the one that set up the game, worship the one that gave you life (supposedly), worship the one who keeps track of everything you do, worship the one who decides when you will walk through the door or be pushed off the cliff etc. or land on the rocks when HE chooses......

He is the one that set it all up and he is the one that will make sure you land on the rocks if you screw up. Wow....I can not see where anyone would think this a threat in the least bit. Strong arm techniques? Nah....god is some bruiser telling you "tings" are going to happen if you dont pay up? Threats? Nah......

Fine then. There are three options. Worship and go through the door. Get pushed off the cliff and plummet to your doom or live full life, dive off the plateau when its your time and give the sick twisted guy who set the whole thing up the finger till you hit bottom. Come what may.

This god created the pitfalls. He created the traps and our ability to fall into them. He set the whole game up and only asks that we worship him for doing so, messed up rule book and all. The reward for playing his game? Promised eternal paradise or complete and total nothingness with the option to suffer for eternity.

Decisions decisions.....





Why is it a problem? Why is "basic spiritual foundation and nourishment" vital to life as we know it? What happens if you dont have these things?

Why wouldnt you allow you child to make the choice? Why would you make them decide or decide for them? Would you not allow them to decide they want to worship a different god later in life? Would you disown them for falling in love with someone of the same sex? What about choosing to have an abortion? Exactly how many decisions in this childs life are you going to make for them?


Kevin A.

But in reality, it is not. While you are alive now, that it. No one knows what happens when you die, so we can leave that out. But Atheists living in society just as Christians do is PROOF, OBJECTIVE proof that it is not an actual NEED.



I don't believe in God, yet I don't rule out all spiritual beliefs. For instance, I'm still on the fence on whether or not consciousness is completely physical, or something beyond that.



It takes away alot of their freedom. A persons belief system is a very big part of their lives, so it's best to allow a person to be able to make that decision for themselves.

I will not make any decisions for my child (after they turn 10). However, I will raise my child within a religious framework. Within a religious mindset so that their decisions are wise ones.


I'm not making the choice for them though, I'm just giving them some background so that when they do make the choice, they'll have their head on their shoulders and not be like some of the crazy yahoos runnin' around looking for spirituality like a junkie looking for crack. Spirituality is important. I may not be able to "prove" it, but I don't need to. As of yet, the only people who I have met that say it isn't important are online, and philosophically, you may not even exist. Every single person who I have met face to face has admitted that spirituality is important. 90% of those who come to me online for counseling admit this as well. It's only a small minority that will say it isn't vital only only 5% of that small minority truly believe it. I have yet to meet a person who (at their core) believes as you do.

So I guess telling you that walking off that cliff will end in your death is a threat also

First, I must congratulate you on a very well written post. You seem to have succinctly addressed what I was saying. Well done

However, I must also say that my comment was only an analogy, not meant to be taken as far as you have taken it. The overriding point I was making is that we as humans are walking towards the spiritual cliff, not because we have no choice, but because our choices inevitably lead us to that destination, and so God is offering a spiritual way out - by accepting God's sacrifice. I can see your point of view, and even understand how it might be seen as "worship me or die". But this view also takes the predetermined view that Eternal Life should be the default position and God is taking that away from us for not believing. Rather, I take the opposite view. that Eternal Life is a gift - rather than having Life taken away right at the end, God is giving Life, through his Mercy.

I know that might sound like a very trivial difference to some, but to me, it makes a very subtle, but very important difference.

All the best,

A child can easily be dragged down


fullywired

Are we talking about values here or religion? and don't tell me that non religious people don't have values.


fullywired

Agreed.

People either do not understand the process of socialization or simply want to force their way onto others. Regardless children will be socialized into whatever culture they are born into. What is great about the West is that culture has many intricacies as far as religion so while one house might offer their child a Christian example their neighbors but not be religious or ever think about it.

Does anyone else see the root problem here being the natural or normal tendency to instill in your children YOUR values and beliefs? I mean, isn't that NORMAL?
Talking about some sort of forceful conversion of some pre-teen or early teenager from an established set of beliefs to another is another story altogether. But when it comes to YOUR kids, you try to teach them YOUR values, the ones that you hope led you down a happy, healthy, successful road. Right?
So how have we evolved to just trashing religion? I don't get it. How could a MUSLIM raising his kids to be MUSLIM be bad? Or an Atheist raising their kids as an Atheist? I don't see the debate.






The debate is about "The Conversion of Children" not teaching them values .everybody teaches their kids values.

fullywired

Yet no where do I see anyone discussing conversion. I have yet to see anyone define it. And if you read my post, which you so clumsily quoted, you will see I am discussing conversion. I seem to be the ONLY one doing so. If I was the OP, I'd be pissed.

The more I think about it, and now after looking back at the FIRST three or four posts to make sure I am in the right freakin thread...

YOU people are way off topic. After fullywired took the time to remind me what the topic was about (as if I was off topic) I did a quick review.


There we go, the first three lines from the OP, post #1. If YOU guys want to get on topic, I suggest YOU review.


Man the more I think about it the more I get steamed!
You guys are just here arguing the SAME crap! Zan, PA, fillywired, IAMS, just to name a few...the SAME tired crap. It has become an argument about FAITH, Christianity in particular. Get OFF your high damn horses! You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

Oh I commented correctly about a zillion pages back... but same stuff different day. LOL

Is it "fair"? Life ain't fair and everyone makes decisions wtih their kids that might unfairly affect them... so that's kind of a question that's impossible to answer.

I chose to set an example of faith and values... not religion with my kid. Was it right? I have no flippin' idea.

Check your post ,you asked what the debate was about and I "clumsily " answered .No one forced you into this thread ,it is not compulsory to read it.

Why not start a thread of your own, more pleasing to you?


fullywired

We're talking about both since from a Christian standpoint teaching our children about God's love and Christ's sacrifice is also the bass for many of our values. No one is saying non-religious people don't have values, but their values are by definition, do not have a spiritual component.


I'm sorry egg, but I have to disagree with you because of the way I see values and religious beliefs as integrally linked, so the discussion is going to include values.

And how does the Spiritual component make the value any more valuable.


fullywired

IMHO --- the Conversion of children , be they your own , begins when you indoctrinate them into your religious views.

the wise parent ultimately in my opinion teaches their children about all religions without prejudiced or preference. that would be the best . hence whatever struck the child as true as they grow would be their own path and not their parents via conversion.

ps - I do believe we have( at least one I know of ) a parent that has done pretty much that and has raised a moral ethical smart kid with views of her own that did not follow her mothers faith.



yet Atheists have morals , values and ethics without religious beliefs.

well said lady R.....as always your insights are thought provoking....

and an intellegent parent also understands within the frame of the whole what religion does and doesn't do as far as values ethics and morals.......

we are obligated by our willingness to get along in our world and also help our children do this regardless of the religion we are .... we have many beliefs in this world pehaps it would serve ius to parent in that awareness........when we limit the persepctives a child can hold we do not benefit our culture as a whole. or our child for that matter we often create tension where none has to be.......... one can certainly have a tradition and ritual based experince that is all inclusive ...our kids have to know the differnce....

I think there is a huge difference in teaching your child about your faith & telling them that this is what they WILL believe.

I just came up with my own solution to this little discussion. Perhaps instead of teaching your child what to think, you should teach them how to think. Look at it this way, you always learn how to do something before you actually do it. If you want to fly a plane, you dont just jump in one and try to fly around, unless of course you have a death wish. Instead you go to flight school, and you learn how the mechanics of the airplane work, how the rudder, flaps and ailerons work, how lift and drag work, how the engine works. You also learn the rules you have to follow, and what weather you can or cannot fly in, depending on what license you have. In the same sense, shouldn't you learn how to think before you learn what to think?

That would depend on whether you value the spiritual component or not.


I didn't say they don't.

I would wholeheartedly agree actually.

This is why my child never attended public primary or secondary school. They have a tendency to teach what to think rather than how to think. So I took it upon myself to do just that. It's slightly different at the university level. At that point you're taught to challenge, not really to swallow everything hook, line, sinker. I think there's a real good reason a lot of otherwise "bright" kids flunk out of college, the entire concept of how to think elludes them.

And still, the topic of conversion and brainwashing, of children has been derailed into a "how Christians raise their kids and how evil it is to make a poor baby be a Christian". Sorry, it's absurd. I LIKED the OP and the topic it was about. This is more of the same, from the same people. Have fun. You guys totally misread my last comment.