Well, personally...

1. As I stated in my first post (I believe), I don't think a kid can be "converted" by their parents... the very meaning of the word would imply that there was something to be converted from--which isn't the case.

2. Brainwashing... as I argued earlier as well... brainwashing is a serious word with a serious and specific meaning. It's wrong to brainwash anyone. I hate it when that word is thrown around and used so loosely as it generally is here. I know someone who was brainwashed by a cult... trust me, VERY few people have experienced the psychological horror that she did (and still does some 6 years out).

That is hardly a explanation


fullywired

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Einstein

I think this is what thinking people do they challenge and look at the ideas that are the basis and crux of morals and values and its a very sound a value exploration one I find to be imperative as a parent .. we can brain wash in any system....


using a method called argumentation,, which is you lay out a claim , you support and give evidence for your claim then relook at it with a skeptic posit usually the pov of others they provide the skeptical critical analysis ...In this frame you are always looking to find a common ground.......not find a bad guy..i hope this helps....

I personallyy do not think that because a person is christian it makes them a horrible parent .. Most parents i know are generally seeking to be more effective at it not wasting time on how another parents....


Church, I agree its a great idea to teach the child how to think not what to think...

Mhmm. This about sums up this thread especially the title which refers to the 'conversion of children' in the context of a parent and their child beginning from day one.

The spiritual road is a personal one. A person cannot be forced down that road.

I repeat "a child can"


fullywired

No one (not even a child) can be forced to experience the spirituality involved in religious devotion. You can either just put them through the motions (like many people do) or you can actually teach them, but the decision is ultimately theirs.

I like it!

This is true, however, thinking processes can be different depending on whether or not a person is religious. The way you think about things can be affected by religion. How you think can be affected by religion. Religion isn't only a "what to think" process, it is also a "how to think" process. After all, the road to religiosity is mostly for developing that purpose of HOW to think like a religious person would.

Thank you! I don't know how this turned into what it has become.

I don't even have a problem with the discussion, I just don't think it's on topic, as well as I DO think it's rehashing about 70 old threads. There aren't even enough fresh faces to make it interesting!

yet forcing them through the motions can be and usually is damaging. here is why and I speak from my own experience. I never believed what the christian church was trying to preach. yet at the same time I was afraid not to believe it due to years of indoctrination. so you go through the motions with this great weight and struggle.

I didn't finally leave it until I was in my early 20's after a huge struggle with fear . and still there are small remnants. even some small angers at all the crap I had to go through yet I didn't believe it. Now if I had my choice at 6,8,10 or 14 I never would have bothered with it ... but I wasn't given that choice. Neither are most kids.

What can you teach a kid ? If a religion doesn't feel right for them it never will. Most grow to believe out of obligation , familiarity , tradition or fear . not out of actual belief.

so while you can't force the 'experience' of devotion in the sense of feeling ...... you can force one by indoctrination. and that is why most stay.

now teach a kid about your faith , fine. but also give them the material showing what the rest of humanity believes. THAT would be letting them make their own decision. letting their own sense of faith rise instead of one pushed upon them.

give them a Bible , Koran , the Bhagavad Gita ......... ect ........... and let them decide.

ps - and how about being really honest and tell them we have no way to know if any of this is true.... we have no proof.

I already stated in this thread that I believe that a person shouldn't be allowed to teach their child their religion if the person doesn't live to their religion's standards. If a person isn't truly devoted to a religion, they have no right to teach their children anything about religion. I think a parent should only be allowed to teach to the point that they aren't a bigot.

I do not agree, however, that you should provide your child with material contrary to what you believe. I think a child should search for that him/herself if he/she truly wants to learn about other religions.

As to "forcing" a child to believe, you can't force a child to believe in his heart in your religion. That's not possible. It's a personal thing. Even if you put them through the motions, what matters is what's in their heart, what's in their mind, that's what truly matters to God. That's the sort of thing that can't be forced.

I think a child up till 12 to 15 depending on the person should have to go to church with their parents. After that they should only have to go if they want to. But parents should also have the right to tell their child that they have to go to a church until they are out of the house.

I disagree. I could have forced my daughter to go to First Day school, or a service for worship.... and sometimes she chose to go, but mostly, she chose to visit with her grandparents while I went. It was a good time and a good thing for her to do that. Forcing her would have gone against everything I believe.

She still lives at home (more or less) and is nearly 21 now. I would NEVER force her to go to church now. I have invited her a few times, but she usually declines in favor of sleeping in late. OR, she takes the opportunity to hitch a ride to her grandparents house, even now. Family is important, and if the goal is family, my way worked for us. You cant' force a kid to believe, but they should be given the opportunity to find out what their parents beliefs are. But parents shouldn't force it in my opinion. Forcing them to go to church is like trying to force religion. In fact, forcing a kid to do much of anything, generally ends up backfiring. I'm not against having rules, but the rules need to be resonable--forcing a kid to chuch is unreasonable in my opinion.

true but a child under 12 depending the child of course should not be left alone at home. As you said yours went to your parents. What if your parents went to church with you.

LOL, it depends on the kid. By 12, my kid was traveling internationally by herself, by 14 she was a full time college student, by 15 she was emancipated. Staying home alone was not a big deal. In fact, she could have stayed by herself as young as 8 although I rarely (if ever) did that mostly because if anyone found out, they'd probably freak out. She would have been fine with it, it was only other people who would not have been.

It depends from kid to kid... but if there's no option, you do have to take them and send them to Sunday school or whatnot I suppose. I wouldn't put a hard age on it though. I have known parents that didn't allow their kids to go to sleep overs on Saturdays with friends because they HAD to go to church Sunday morning. I don't know, I find that unsettling. But that's just me--people of my faith tend to teach their children about our lifestyle... which is somewhat different from a lot of christian demoninations, our church is really more for adults, not kids. Although kids are welcome... they can go to a "day care" for lack of a better term, where they can play and be entertained for an hour. If they can be reasonably quiet, they can attend a service. It's admittedly very difficult for a young child to sit still and be quiet for an hour though.

This conversation and the opinions of all are hopelessly bound by their own culture and social situation. Most of the people are just angry at Christians, so thus translate that into many different modes of attacking anything to do with the way 'they believe' Christians do things. Christians breathe air so perhaps some should find another way of getting oxygen because there has to be something wrong with that too....seriously as ridiculous as that sounds so does expecting other parents to rear their children as you do yours. What is certain is that some are not speaking fact when they say the 'best' way to do this is like this...because as soon as they use the word 'best' they are already making a qualitative judgment. What is fact is that the most expected way things will be done in terms of child rearing and beliefs will be according to whatever their parents believe...and it is a foolish notion to prescribe your beliefs onto another. This is just the reverse side of what could be a Christian saying you should send your child to church and you should go to because if not...well in the end I am sure they sound impressive to their own ears and would even make the claim that they are speaking wisdom.

I disagree, I think a parent should only bring their child with them to religious services up until they turn ten, and even then, there has to be some actual substance to the religious services and not just the watered down meaningless stuff that some churches preach to please everyone and teach no one.

A parent shouldn't have the right to force a child to go to church until they are out of the house, that denies the humanity of the child. It is also a vicious and abusive thing to make your child do something because you believe it. You deny that the child has his/her own mind and opinions. You create anger in the child that is justified against yourself, and you create a distance between you and that child. It causes problems, and even if you force the child to go, its all for nothing because the mere fact you have forced the child to be there has made it so that the child will not accept anything said there. By doing this forcing, you show that you have an abhorrent character flaw, a flaw that makes you almost unworthy of being a parent any longer. It also tells your child that you are a prideful person who cares nothing about the child's spiritual well-being. It is not only a display of bad character on your part to do such a thing, it's also harmful to the child.

why not provide material contrary to what the parent believes ? are you afraid they won't follow yours ? if not then there is no reason to not provide those resources. That would save them later in finding what fits for them ............ save them the psychological effects of ridding themselves of beliefs that they don't agree or identify with.

how long and what did you have to go through to leave christianity for Judaism ? you were a very angry poster when christian. your alot more even tempered now. How much trama could you have been saved if your parents had given you the opportunity to explore other beliefs ? the freedom too ?

IMO if leaving a religious belief because you don't believe it yet harbor some guilt or fear = brainwashing. now how many leave and feel those effects ? from any religion ! I see praise at times on the boards from christians when muslims convert yet ask those muslims what they felt leaving the religion of Islam. I think when one is raised in a certain construct leaving it , belief or not , becomes a chore to deal with. one has to sluice off old indoctrination . old brainwashing. some may not like the term but it's exactly what it is. by repetition , the use of guilt , fear , and community .

I think you should wait untill the child is about 13 or so before you take them to church. Any age before that of course they are going to want to go just to be around other kids. At least by the age of 12 13 they can tell you why they don't want to go. Taking kids to church & letting them grow up in it is not being fair & letting them decide of they want to or not. But it seems that some of you do not want the kids to be able to decide for themselves & that's why you take them at such a young age.

Would that also apply to Buddhists taking their child to Temple? Our old pastor was a Vietnamese immigrant, grew up in a devoutly Buddhist household. He became a Christian when he was 17 after going to a High School camp run by an old retired preacher. His parents accused him being brainwashed and they had a falling out for a few years before they finally reconciled themselves that their child wouldn't be following in their footsteps.

I know what you're trying to say, but for Christians, leaving your child at home is generally not possible. How would I go to church but leave my kid at home? Leave them alone? Pay money for a babysitter (assuming I can afford it)? Leave them at a friend's place who don't believe (that's very considerate of me, making a friend give up their Sundays every week to help me). Or simply not go to Church at all (how would that affect teh congregation if both my wife and I had duties there - give up our meetings for the next 12 years just to appease some people who don't believe what we have the Right to teach our kids????). MMW suggested leaving them at their grandparents place - when I was a kid, all my grandparents were dead, but one - and she was in her 90's and was physically incapable of looking after energetic children. Though I went to their version of church until I was older and then chose not to go, I think that worked out well for me. I didn't follow their beliefs.

Are you also espousing the idea that all children should be home schooled as a way to insure that no one else brainwashes your child?

Our kids will go to public schools I think it's up to the parents to be open & honest about what the kids learn while away. I do not care for homeschooling myself. I've known kids who have been homeschooled & had no social skills outside of home because of it. Which made them a much easier target for those looking to take advanatage of somone.

I see where your coming from & being a Christian it would be hard if you had no one that you could leave your kids with. My wife & I won't have that problem. Our ideas do not work for everyone & nor should they, like I said before I'm sure there are going to be time my wifes grandmother will take our kids to church. The only problem with that is trying to be open & honest with them if they have a question about God without being jaded.

Clovis, per my kids requests I have been to many churches, experienced different traditons...i have even said lets check this out.......



you do not need a religion to be a good person or to be spiritual any more than you need to be married to have an amazing relationship. or alot of money to be happy......

clearly do not put your kids into things that do not question authority or are the authority or donot allow for the questioning of value or merit we have to giude in a way that the chid can adapt to any circumstance.. and thinking for themselves is the best way.....and this should start early. as guides we can't do their thinking for them an we have to allow for others constructs not by creating a hatred or fear of them ......... .... you want them to make quality choices this come from quality parenting ......... you want to allow make room for experince as it teaches alot if one is willing to look....

we have many parents who say its wrong to harm others then use punishnment to guide their kids...guess what this teaches....

an education varies in it's subjects and is about , usually , facts. apples and oranges.

You went off on a tangent there SS and are discussing things that have nothing to do with my singular point. If you are claiming that Christians cannot offer quality parenting while passing on their Christian heritage and traditions to their children then your view is definitely intolerant. Intolerance should not be accepted in our modern society under any guise.

..

everyone is intolerance Clovis it depends on how you use it that matters....to what ends.....

I would make no such claims as I do not ascribe be to a one truth, one path philosophy... i know parents that are devout christians that I call amazing parents.......

I wouldn't provide them material contrary to what I believe for a few reasons:

1. That is against my religion. What kind of example do I set by breaking my own tradition to give them options?

2. It is my believe that the journey to finding one's own religion is an important one.


1. Leaving christianity wasn't easy (I still sometimes almost say "In Jesus name" after I pray). However, I'm glad to have gone through it.

2. I still get very very angry, I just have more self-control now. I think that has nothing to do with my beliefs, but with the fact that I'm older.

3. I'm actually kind of glad my parents didn't give me other options. Maybe I'm weird like that, I don't know. But despite their many continuous mistakes, they are doing a really good job. I must say that in comparison with the parents of many other teens who I know, mine have done an awesome job.



While I don't agree with you're terminology, you're right in that shedding the old beliefs is difficult. But it should be, religion is potentially the most important thing a person will ever contemplate. It should be hard every single time they change beliefs because its just that important. You need to have surety when you leave a belief. You shouldn't just switch around like you haven't got any sense.

IMO, religion-hopping can be equated with having sex with many partners. It's not something people should just do. It's important and should be considered before done. I thought about it before a year when I decided to divorce myself from christianity and go marry judaism.

I can't get past the brainwashing thing. It's just false and intentionally negative to assume that any teaching of any religion to an child is the same as brainwashing. It's just a false statement. If this were true, then teaching of any social skills, or teaching of any social norms, is brainwashing. Teaching a child modesty for example, is brainwashing. We shouldn't ever tell kids that showing their "privates" in public is not proper behavior. After all, it's just a social construct. Who are YOU (we) to say what is and isn't right. By whose standards are we living? Besides, it's just our BELIEF that nudity is bad, and we should NEVER try to force a belief on someone.

Absurd.

Children need to be taught how to think, not what to believe.



It's such a gray area but I can agree with Marcus here:


The brainwashing of children

by Marcus Loane



One result of brainwashing is the victim having a deeply held conviction that something is true even though they are unable to justify it intellectually.

Religious belief is an accident of birth

It is a fact that those with religious beliefs almost always follow the same religion as their parents. There are very few Moslems with Roman Catholic parents. There are very few Buddhists with Hindu parents. It follows that a person's religious beliefs are usually an accident of birth. What they believe depends on where they were born and also on what period in history they were born. Very few honestly evaluate all the world's religions (past and present) and decide that a particular one must be the "true way".

Children are like sponges

Children soak up knowledge and believe what they are told. Any religion that wants to survive and spread would do well to indoctrinate the young. The younger the better. Beliefs inculcated in childhood can be hard to shake, even when there is strong evidence to show they are false. Children have programmed in acceptance and a magical way of thinking. They are receptive to fantastic ideas like invisible beings which can read thoughts. Many of those with deeply held religious beliefs have been indoctrinated from a young age. As religious belief is mostly passed down generations ("inherited", as it were), any religion that encourages brainwashing of the young and having lots of children should do very well at spreading. The main branch of Christianity, Roman Catholicism, is a classic example with its stance on contraception. I am not suggesting that its doctrines were deliberately created to enhance its spread. It is just that any religion that happens to encourage having lots of children and teaches its doctrines to those children when they are too young to discern true from false, will become more widespread than religions without these features. It is kind of evolution of religions.

How can you possibly describe a child of four as a Muslim or a Christian or a Hindu or a Jew? Would you talk about a four-year-old economic monetarist? Would you talk about a four-year-old neo-isolationist or a four-year-old liberal Republican? There are opinions about the cosmos and the world that children, once grown, will presumably be in a position to evaluate for themselves. Religion is the one field in our culture about which it is absolutely accepted, without question -- without even noticing how bizarre it is -- that parents have a total and absolute say in what their children are going to be, how their children are going to be raised, what opinions their children are going to have about the cosmos, about life, about existence.
- Richard Dawkins

Intellectual child abuse

The intense brainwashing of children is not uncommon in N. Ireland where I come from. It leads to adults who may never fully recover regardless of whether they accept the dogma or reject it. Those who accept it are living their entire lives under the implied threat of hell and have the divine Voyeur monitoring their every thought (although some are quite happy with their faith). It is guilt and fear dressed up in a Love and Truth facade. Those who realise the dogma is false have to deal with the upheaval of remaking a worldview from scratch, the stigma of being labeled bad, and possible outright rejection by family members for the crime of conducting an honest search to find out what is actually true. Some adults have been so badly indoctrinated in childhood that while intellectually they realise the Christian claims are false they still experience the guilt and fear. Thankfully I am not one of them, but I have conversed with some of them. It is wrong and harmful for parents to teach children that their faith-based beliefs are true. Children can be educated about what people's faith-based beliefs are without claiming that they can be known to be true. In fact they should be educated about the wide range of competing faith based beliefs around the world and throughout history. That will give them a much better foundation for dealing with all the bogus claims they will be bombarded with during their life. Children need to be taught how to think, not what to believe.

--
Marcus Loane http://www.geocities.com/marcusral/ath2.htm

This is actually a good piece of writing. As far as brainwashing goes, this would be consistent. The reality though, is that brainwashing implies that you are CHANGING a belief, or replacing a belief. In the case of kids growing up in a home of a religious background, it's not quite that simple.

I like this statement too.

This quote really needs a disclaimer, that this is the writers OPINION. It's a totally understandable stance, but definitely OPINION. Even better is the next statement.

I agree that kids should be exposed and taught the basics of the assorted belief systems in the world as a matter of course, along with social, racial, political, ethnic differences throughout the world (basically, world history and social studies). I don't think religions should be presented to them as if it's a menu, and they have to choose how they nourish their eternal soul (added eternal soul for dramatic effect ).

this is an excellent article MLOR......I concur as a parent I do not say this is the truth i say this is the truth for me based on my understandings and it will be the same for you... Donot take anything i say as an absolute....


the thing that most parents don't get is that if you do not encourage your children to question authority or question your values ( as they see us as the authority) they will not do this with anyone else either ...there are things we would want them to be aware of and we want them to be able to say no thanks and not be afraid to do this fear of authority begins in the home......

Most parents are too proud to teach their children to question everything...