The Bible states that if you believe in Jesus and accept him as your savior then you will be granted eternal paradise when you die, and that you must convert others to save their souls. BUT where does one draw the line in this mandate? Is brainwashing children into believing in nothing but God and the Bible really fair? Yes, I do believe it is fair to spread the word about Christianity to adults who can make decisions for themselves, but isn't brainwashing children completely immoral? Jesus didn't say that brainwashing people or forcing them to believe in his path was the correct thing to do, so why do fundamentalists do this? Should it be considered illegal because it's taking away a person's ability to decide for themselves what's true and what's not, even if it is supposedly saving their souls? God himself created people with the quality of free will, so who are we to take that away from people?

Tricky isnt it?

One way to examinne this is to take a more general question. How far do parental rights and responsibilities extend ? How much do those of children; and what happens when the two sets of rights/responsibilities come into conflict.

My ethical viewpoint is this.

A child comes into the world with no inherent values or moral/ethical systems. These are required for survival and growth within any society but particularly within complex modern ones. Thus children need to develop them as quickly as possible.

Early is best in learning terms, with any complex things such as language.

Parents should have developed values and ethicakl standards.

In principle the best people to impart values and ethics are parents because of their close proximity to the children while they are very young, and because they are learned by observation and example as much as by verbal instruction.

In principle parents must impart what they believe to be self evident truths. To do otherwise would be unethical and hypocritical.

Thus in general parents should teach children their own values and ethical standards.
As the child grows older and comes into contact with what may be diverse and quite conflicting values and ethics, from those of their parents, they may need to revaluate their own.

This is possible because children continually grow in self awareness and in egotistical development. Thus they become able to make their own decisions based on a variety of factors.

My only caveat is that parents do not have the right to make decisions for children which are irrevocable, and which may result in permanent harm or death for the child. Unfortunately the child is not developed enough for a long whiole to make independent logical decisions either. this is why independent ethical standards are developed in all modern societies to deal with such issues.

Personally, as a teacher of many thousands of children, over 35 years, I can cope with most values and ethical systems parents may have inculcated into their children. Tne children whom i find most hard to work with, and with the most problems, are those who have never been given any specific values/ethical system, and have not been taught the skill of developing one for themselves. Most fall back to the inherent human condition. In young people particularly, this does not produce a very nice person.

The only other working model with a different approach (of which i am aware )is the communal model fron the kibbutz in Israel. Here a common set of societal values is taught to all children, who live communally rather than with their parents.

This has obvious ethical advantages and disadvantages. It depends a lot on how much you value community norms over individual ethics.

In other cultures, either by accident or design, grandparents or other variations on the extended family may be the ones who teach children ethics and values. In general, the smaller and more tight knit the community, the more communal values will be taught. In more diverse societies, individual ethical systems are more the norm
Fundanmentalist christians may form a tight knit community, with common values, inside a physically larger and more diverse modern society.

Yes, that's all very true, but what about churches who tell children to believe only in Christianity? It that fair to the child? Sure, parents can give the child a basis for their religious beliefs, but should the church be going around museums telling children how natural history is "supposed" to be in the context of the Bible? The children can't decide for themselves if it's right or wrong, so they'll just go along with it. Should they, to be fair, also teach them about evolution and natural selection? It just seems to me that this is taking away the freedom of these children and is molding them to be fundamentalists who can't accept anything besides the Bible as truth.

Why should children be taught things like big bang, abiogenesis, and other nonsense? However this happens quite a bit.

Because it's the only way to be fair. You need to see both sides of the argument before you make an educated decision. Besides, they'll learn about it in high school anyway, so there's no point in delaying the process.

You made this statement earlier,

"I believe in Wicca because the Goddess has proven herself to me, just as people from various other religions can claim."


How has this goddess proved herself to you? What is her name?

Because as i said parents can and should only teach what they truly and stongly believe in This may include ethical questions but those also involve the underlying premise behind the morals and values which create the ethical system. Thus a person who believes a sinner will go to hell( whether or not they are factually correct in that belief) must teach it to their children.

The children will eventually be exposed to other belief systems, forming other ethical systems. It is not logical for a parent to teach a child something they know, or absolutely believe, to be incorrect.

You appear to be making a personal judgement that the bible is not true and fundamentalists do not know the truth. You may be correct, but also you may not.

The Goddess has proven herself to me through letting me contact my spirit guide, letting my spells work, protecting my house, family, and myself, and guiding me through life. She has no name for she is existence in itself. She has no emotion, she has no personality, she simply IS. She is all of the universe and all of time; she has always existed. She is not forceful nor is she judgmental. She merely sets her children on a path that will lead them to live out their purpose and fulfill her potential. But please don't derail my thread. If you want to start a new thread based on this or PM me you can.

I'm merely trying to say that we should be fair to them and not press our beliefs onto people who cannot make their own decisions. I for one, will not force my child to follow my same religious path and I will let them choose whichever religion they want to when they reach an age where they are mature enough to do so. I'm not trying to say the Bible is wrong and that fundamentalists don't know the truth, I'm just saying they need to be fair and address both sides of the argument, not just one, so children can make their own decisions.

Okay, I was just wondering why your goddess discerned me completely wrong the other day though? Seems like she would know more if she is everything that is.

I think this goes along with the topic because people are being taught about this "goddess" when this goddess makes such errors. Why is this so? Should children not be taught of this goddess you believe in?

The Goddess doesn't control the outcome of the tarot card reading, I do. I use MY intuitive abilities to read your future, NOT my Goddess. She gives people free will and I used MY FREE WILL to use MY intuition to give you a reading, NOT her. And the Goddess makes no err. To her there is no good or bad, right or wrong, everything simply IS. Life is about learning lessons, and sometimes things need to be tough for you to learn the lessons you need to learn. And no, no religion should be taught in school because in America we have the FREEDOM OF RELIGION, and if we teach religion in school, we'd be influencing the religious choice of children, which is immoral and wrong. If people want to seek the Goddess, it's their choice. She doesn't force people to come to her.

Ahhhh the reasonable voice of a demagogue.
If your faith in your deity is so strong, then why worry? Surely, such "nonsense" as the big bang, abiogenesis, evolution, etc will fail before the might of god, no? It's hard to allow a child to develop their own mind, if you only allow them to hear what you think is "right".
And what other "nonsense" are you against? Equality of the sexes? Equal rights of other 'races'? The law of gravity, perhaps? I mean, its only a theory.....
Maybe we should turn the clock back a couple of hundred years, where the masses were illiterate and only the priests and "scholars" had knowledge?

In a similar vein, while I have no issue with Universites sending representatives to my childrens school, I do take issue with the Military trying to enlist my Minor children into service. I see this as no better than being approached by pedophiles....

Well then I think your goddess is really messing up because she has failed to prove her existence or sovereignty to me. Does this goddess hate people? Why doesn't she prove her existence to everybody?

Don't encourage him...

She doesn't show herself to you because you want her to come to you. You have to go to her and take time to understand her instead of being snobby and arrogant about the whole issue. She's not going to show herself to someone who isn't worth her time and energy. And no, she doesn't hate people. She cares for all living things exactly the same. And why doesn't YOUR God prove himself to everyone? Like I said before, she lets people come to her because life is a learning experience and people need to learn to make their own decisions in life. She does not support conversion. People come to her WILLINGLY.

If you have problems with things such as equal rights of races and such, then that is for you to work out on your own. I never mentioned such a thing.

Also, the law of gravity isn't a theory, so you might want to check yourself a bit. There's a difference between a theory and a law.

Yes, the military shouldn't recruit underage people. That's just wrong.

That was implied WWF. It wasn't meant literally, fyi.

Oh, so this goddess says people aren't "worth her time and energy"? Doesn't sound like someone I think children should be getting to know.

Sounds like you're contradicting yourself, You say people aren't "worth her time and energy", then you say "she cares for all living things exactly the same".

Sounds like this "goddess" is confused. You can't have it both ways.

What kind of mind implies things like racism for no reason?

I surely didn't bring it up.

For the umpteenth time, DO NOT TWIST MY WORDS. I said she doesn't care about proving herself to people because it doesn't matter. She doesn't waste her time and energy PROVING HERSELF TO PEOPLE. She does NOT think people aren't worth her time and energy. Try reading my post next time. My Goddess is not confused, thank you very much, it just seems like you are.

You opened the door WWF.
I was just curious what other areas that you have a problem with.
I take it by your stance, that if it were up to you, scientific theories you don't agree with wouldn't be taught in school?

Hmmmmm, kind of like how the god of the christians will only show himself to those that first have the faith to believe in him?

Mr Pot, say hello to Ms Kettle

Yeah, really. If God is the one and true God then HE should come out and prove it.

I'll quote you verbatim:

"She's not going to show herself to someone who isn't worth her time and energy."

Then you said...

"She cares for all living things exactly the same."

Sorry, but it sounds to me likes this goddess is confused. She's saying people aren't worth her time and energy, but she's supposedly loving everything exactly the same.

How's anybody supposed to know to approach this goddess if she hides herself and says people aren't worth her time and energy?

I didn't open any doors about racism. If you have issues with racism, then it's something you should pursue on your own. Don't try to pass it off on me. Thanks.

Ugh, what I MEANT was it's not worth her time and energy to prove herself to people like YOU who would deny she exists even if she did prove herself. You're on the path she set you on, she doesn't need an ego boost by proving that she exists. She does not "hide" herself either. She simply doesn't go around CONVERTING people to a religion they aren't destined to follow. Everyone follows their religion for a purpose, not because it's right. And why doesn't YOUR God prove himself? HM? If he's the real God, shouldn't he prove it instead of "hiding"? And there's plenty of personality flaws with him too, because unlike my Goddess, he actually has one, which is a flaw in itself.

He was IMPLYING that YOU might have these problems because you tend to be narrow-minded. He wasn't saying that he has those problems, WWF.

Well why doesn't your goddess prove herself? So far your "goddess" hasn't responded to anything I've said.

Not a problem Lady Otterwynnd, he is famous for twisting a debate.

Has your God responded to anything that ANY of us non-believers has said? Oh, guess what, he HASN'T. The Goddess doesn't approve of senseless killing of her beloved creatures. (I'm only refering to her using emotion because it's more easy to understand this way). If you kill or harm another creature, you better be eating it or the Goddess takes it personally. And still, your God has YET to prove himself to any of us, so why should I believe you, either?

Yeah, but I'm still waiting on your goddess. She hasn't done anything yet.

That's because you're being arrogant about it. Plus, she's set you on the path you need to follow, so there's no point in messing up your future just to prove a point. And I'm still waiting on God's answer too. But I'm not holding my breath.

Who said I'm being arrogant. This is her chance to prove herself. I'm waiting...

What's she going to do to prove herself to me?

I said you're being arrogant. And she's not going to change the path she's set for you unless you plan on switching religions, in which case, she might consider it. Your so called "God given" gifts could very well be gifts from Her that you choose to label otherwise.

Well so far your "goddess" hasn't set any plan for me and has failed at proving herself to me when given a valid opportunity. It would seem that if she were valid she would want you to help me by revealing herself through you, but this doesn't seem to be the case. For whatever reason, she seems to be hiding. Or maybe she's busy doing something else?

wow now isn't this turning into a "my god is better then yours" argument, how do we know any religion is right? we don't, not until we die, now until someone is willing to die, then somehow come back to life and tell us what happens when we die, lets try to keep this thread on topic... I have to agree With Lady here, who are we to put our religious beliefs onto a child, who doesn't really understand the options out there, I'm Pagan, that doesn't mean I'll raise my children Pagan, because I was lucky enough to have a mom who raised me non-religiously, and I was thankful for the opportunity to search for myself what I think is right, I know I'd be a much unhappier person, If I wasn't given the choice. Everyone has their own personality, our kids, aren't us. They don't have the same exact experiences we do. Yes I'll teach my child the difference between right and wrong, but I'm not going to scare my kids onto believing something that doesn't feel right to them. Doing research on different religions has shown me that each has something good to learn from it. Why not give our kids that opportunity, Don't we want to teach our kids to think for themselves, to not fallow the crowd, to impose a religion on a child at an early age is like telling your child to be a sheep and do what the others do without questioning anything. I know none of us want that...we never really know whats right for our kids, and I'm sure we've all been through the time in our life where we try to figure out who we are, and where we fit into this world. A good example is my parents, they want me to go into health care, become a nurse, something I would never do in a million years...what I want to do, become a tattoo artist, which is what I'm currently working on. Do my parents approve completely, no, do they accept that its who I am, yes. I know that they hate my piercings, and a few of my tattoo's, but they also understand that its part of who I am as a human being, they still love me. As much as we want our kids to be safe, and to be like us, have the safe perfect job, the security, we need to let kids make their own choices in life, so they can be happy, life is way to short on this earth for us to try pleasing everyone else. I defiantly don't want my child to be exactly like me, I want them to be their own person, and when they get old enough to make the choice on religion, if they choose to be a Christian, then thats their choice, I won't necessarily agree with it, but I'll accept it, because its our role as parents to make sure that we give them the tools in life to make informed decisions and to be able to think for themselves.

She's set you on your plan by having you believe in Christianity. It's obviously a lesson you need to learn, so that's what she's given you. She doesn't NEED to reveal herself to non-believers. And you can't say your God isn't doing the same thing.

Very well put Rocker. And i don't think my deity is any better than WWF's, I'm just trying to get him to stop twisting my words to mean something they don't. It's nice to see someone is actually responding to the OP!

Sorry, your goddess has nothing to do with my beliefs. I don't believe in your goddess and she apparently does not have the ability to reveal herself as I've already asked you to demonstrate her existence and she was unsuccessful.

and it looks like WWF didn't even bother to read my post, how nice.

Ahem.

The Opening Post was

"The Bible states that if you believe in Jesus and accept him as your savior then you will be granted eternal paradise when you die, and that you must convert others to save their souls. BUT where does one draw the line in this mandate? Is brainwashing children into believing in nothing but God and the Bible really fair? Yes, I do believe it is fair to spread the word about Christianity to adults who can make decisions for themselves, but isn't brainwashing children completely immoral? Jesus didn't say that brainwashing people or forcing them to believe in his path was the correct thing to do, so why do fundamentalists do this? Should it be considered illegal because it's taking away a person's ability to decide for themselves what's true and what's not, even if it is supposedly saving their souls? God himself created people with the quality of free will, so who are we to take that away from people?"

I don't see any mention of the word Goddess in any of that. Back on topic, please.

Thanks in advance,

Tiggs
[Forum Mod Team]

The Goddess influenced you to choose Christianity as your religion without you knowing it. The God you talk to is the God of the universe, the other half of the Goddess. The God and Goddess of existence. BUT Tiggs is right, if you wish to continue this discussion further, pm me or start a new thread.

No your goddess hasn't done anything in my life and has nothing to do with my faith in Christianity.

Also, when given the chance during this discussion, your goddess refused to reveal herself.

the best way I think is to introduce a child to ALL the religions (or as many and as varied as possible) not just one. Childhood is a time for getting information and deciding who you're going to be. I am an agnostic, my parents are too. They never told me they were or even hinted at it until I was about 12. Until I was 8 I was sent to weekly Bible Study classes and my parents to me to church. They would have taken me to a synagogue, a mosque or anywhere else but it was impossible. So instead they got me a library card and never restricted the content (they just kind of kept track of it) and if I wanted an adult book they got it for me.

If more parents behaved this way, not only would we not have as many mindless zealots, but at least religions would be more tolerant of each other. I personally think of religions like commercial brands--they're all looking for exclusive customers and don't want anyone to use another product. Why else demand such exclusion? it's all about power and money. nothing more.

WWF, I'm not going to continue to respond to your queries because Tiggs has already pointed out that my Goddess has nothing to do with the Op. So stop talking about it or leave. Your God never revealed himself either, btw, so I wouldn't be talking if I were you.

Very good point Randy. That sounds like an excellent way for you to gain access to information. And I agree with your last statements too; I bet we WOULD be a lot more tolerant of other religions if we taught it this way.

Lady otter wind had i known wwf would come here to attack you and what you hold close to your heart , well ....
this isn't a religious debate . this is what general standards in our or any society should we as a whole teach our children ?? this is a wide open expance for people who might have a good idea to share .
Again wwf you are an embarrasment to the word christian , I am appalled by your rudeness . why can't we be insightful and helpful to each other regaurdless of culture or personal beliefs ? might i add wwf the key word is personal , your attacs go for the heart . you are spreading hate

It's alright. I can't help how WWF acts. If he wants to act like this than it's his choice, but thank you for sticking up for me.