Interresting.. you have this knowledge from the quran?

I'm sorry but I not sure what you mean? I'm simply asking your opinion since you seem to have quite alot of information on Islam. Sorry if you think I'm trying to catch you out I'm not! What has a democratic system and its protection have anything to do with my question. I wish to know why in Islam you seem to be given a death sentence if you leave the faith?

What's this then?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB-SVHCQxyI

If you want to see more there's loads on youtube.
Bangladesh Cyclone Sidr, etc.

If you think it's futile, how come there were still demonstrations & protests against other issues ,whether the danish cartoons, or the hijab in France..etc? How could the lives of innocent muslims in Darfur be less worthy of your attention than whether a girl goes to school with a scarf or not? There was a BBC program in which witnesses described how an old man along with a handicapped boy were burnt alive in a hut . I am aware that this crime is 'unislamic', the monsters who committed it were not acting according to Islam. Why did muslims let it pass quietly? During demonstrations in UK some people were carrying panels saying 'death to those who insult islam', don't you agree with me that the janjaweed with this & other crimes, insulted islam more than any cartoon? The silence of muslims to these crimes, or lame attempts to deny them, is deafenning the world. How can you protest iraqi deaths only but turn your backs on the muslim victims in Darfur? Why are there no mujahideen fighting for the lives of the thousands of muslim victims in Sudan? Is the land of more value than lives of fellow muslims? Does the reaction of the muslim community depend on who is committing the crime; raging & angry if it is a non-muslim, but looking the other side if it's a fellow muslim's index on the trigger?


As you say, you are aware that these are not islamic acts, they are carried out by people who are muslim, to judge islam based on its follower, is futile. NO other faith has this problem, we dont see muslims judging christianity based on the actions of Bush, or the Oklahoma Bomber, or the KKK. Protest in islam is not really recommended, especailly if your living in the west, in a non muslim country, because protest is a means by which the population can exact its frustration, but does it work, well not really, occasionally yes, for example, the protests agaisnt an illegal war in iraq, did not stop Bush or blair going in, goverments still fulfil their agendas. I dont agree with protesting about the cartoons, i mean are muslims really surprised in the west that non muslims can be so offensive, well they should not be, because in a secular soceity, no religion is free of this and secularist nations dont care, since religion and state are seperated, the latter means nothing to them or they followers, in the name of free speech, they will insult anyone. so no surpirse for me, my point against the cartoons would be that they incited hatred , and help recruit further terrorist, creating more security problem here and in the war zones, therefore the creators of the cartoon should be put on trial for inciting hatred and aiding terrorist recruits. Ah but you secularist wont go there. why would janjaweed and other crimes insult islam more, only to you, because of you ignorance about islam, if you were not ignorant and fair objective you would no base your judgment on the actions of disillusioned muslims. What is happening is Darfur is tragic, but why dont america bomb it to the stone age, they seem to think they have this right of policing the world and forcing secularist systems of the nations. i agree there is atoo much infighting between muslims, they day that stops, is the day we have an islamic state, then you will see the real islam floursih in people and within society. Ask yourself this, who funds, who sells the weapons to the Sudanese goverement, abit like your old chum Saddam, you see the west have a habbit of placing puppets in countries, that sing and dance to their tune, and buy your weapons, but when they stop singing that tune, it time to take them out.

Mugabe, N.Korea,China did not yet put explosives in american embassies in africa, the twin towers...etc your question becomes relevant once they do! You are just proving my point about obsessing about the usa being the "enemy". They did bomb the serbs back into stoneage almost for the sake of muslims in Kosovo, & fought to free Kuwait!! Politics are much more complicated than simple black & white. Trying to find meaning in events by painting black a chosen scapegoat helps no one, particularly muslims. Years ago I came across an article in a middle eastern news paper in which the writer claimed that nasa found on the moon a rock carved in the word Allah, but covered it all up because nasa is afraid of islam !!!! You & I know that this is a piece of nonsense that only a semi-educated person could come up with, but why all these attempts to plant national religious paranoia in the minds of young muslims? Is it healthy for them to grow up believing that the world is against them, that they are standing alone surrounded by sinful dirty enemies waiting to pounce on them & their religion? Who exactly stands to benefit from this wave of paranoia? I can think of several groups, average muslims unfortunately are not among them.


Neither did iraq, infact all the evidence for 9-11 is shoddy at best, the proof for the african emabassy bombing is assumption there is no proof who did it. Who ever did , was wrong. Lets see why you went in to iraq its was because of WMD's, now lets see who has the only record of being so inhumane that they have used a WMD, only America. Then when that bull by the goverment did not manifest itself, it became regime change in iraq, to rid it of a dictator, no iraqi, bombed you did they? But no, silly connection were made, just so invasion could take place. so if we can do regime change there becuase he was a tyrant, then why not Mugabe, China, Korea, Sudan, Saudi, Pakistan, India (for inhumane treatment of kashmiri's), etc etc. You have double standards and agendas, those countries mentioned have not been weakend by 10 yrs of extreme sanctions, they have armies and ability to put a fight up, America only pick on soft targets, its like a big playground bully, with the UK, running around him like a best friend. You speak about Serbs, mate you aint got a clue, the serbs managed their ethinic cleansing, America wathced as did the UN. You know this, that when the Bosnians were fighitng back early days, the UN took away their weapons in order to create peace and a ceasefire, but manage to forget to unarm the serbs, who then just ramapaged through Bosnia, killing indiscrimanetly. men tortured, wifes raped, pregnant womens, children ripped open front of them and left to die, Men forced to bite each other testicles off, during torture etc. Only after most of this passed, did they come back and start bombing Serbia, and only when mujahideen ran to Bosnian to fight, they realised, this place could one more become islamic, althought he Bosnians were muslims, they were at large well itnergrated, less practising, married interfaith marraiges etc, that area of Europe, is the Gateway to Europe, there is no way onthis planet that Europe and the Us would allow that area to be governed by Muslims, due to some assumed threat that it might pose to europe and its way of life. The UN first screwed the bosnians unarmed them forgot to do the same to the other side and then let ethinic cleansing take place, only after this when the muslims started fighting back and international muslims turned up, they thought sh**!

Do you know who once demonstrated for the killing of palestinians in sabra & shatilla camps in Lebanon? Israelies! (That was at a time before hysteria had totally taken over all sides in the ME).

Over 50 years of being imprisoned in your own homeland, bombed, shot and killed daily, yet your double standards are clear, not protesting for the palestinians, not bombin of isreal back to the stone age, nothing. Im not surprised at all, its expected, we know how your goverments think and their agendas.

Since you are a 'fundamentalist' muslim, I guess I do not need to remind you of the rules of 'adab al muhadatha'! putting 'you' & 'fornicating' in the same phrase is unacceptable, dont you agree? Calm down a bit Ozi, your anger is preventing you from having a RATIONAL unemotional discussion. You had nothing nice to say about people in the west! If it is such a hell hole, why are you enduring it ? Do you believe life is a paradise back in the east? If it was, you wouldn't be in the west, would you? Let's go back to where we should have been, integration. Firstly, if you know anything about immigrants home countries, you would know that they have far greater freedom to practice their faith in the west than anything back home. Even sheikh Abu Hamza was able to deliver several inflammatory sermons in a mosque in London before the court case started, I can think of several ME countries where he would have disappeared before he could say the second sentence of the first sermon & forget about any court involvement. The Dutch tv dedicates hours every sunday to islamic programs, minorities are not granted the same courtesy elsewhere. Many european countries have laws & institutions to protect immigrants from discrimination. Who exactly is persecuting muslims & trying to force them to leave their faith & how? Can you give specific examples? By integration I mean forsaking such practices as female circumcision & forced marriages for example. Where I live there was a case when a brother killed his sister following the orders of the parents because she refused a marriage & moved out. There is a considerable percentage of school drop outs among immigrant youth. Some , not all, have taken up thuggery, vandalism & petty theft, or even drug dealing .It is that which creates resentment among the rest of society, not their faith. For some young people, the feeling of alienation between 2 radically different cultures is not diminished, nor their problems solved if their imams & parents are only pointing out to them vices (& exaggerating them) in the society around them & then telling them how the country where they grew up, america & the whole west hate them & are against them. Look around you Ozi, have you seen any charities active in your western country & in poor 3rd world countries? people who volunteer to take care of the elderly & the handicapped? soup kitchens for the poor? Any decent people at all? When was the last time someone threatened you convert or else? When you said "but it does it mean you need to bomb us", your use of "us" here is an example of identifying only with iraq or your ancestral country, the "you" being the west? When you start using "us" when you are referring to the western country where you are living, regardless of your faith , then will you be 'integrated'.
Please read the article I referred to in my previous post then there will be no need for this question. It was an example of how some interpretations & tafseers should be looked into to avoid fatwas like the one mentioned in the article.

Listen I have problem with the west, the ideology of secularism, and the alleged democracy, the guise of which is used to force secularism on nations around the world. I have said it before, that i have more freedom to practise islam here in the UK and than most muslims countries. However thats the UK, would i feel comfortable in the US, no, France , No, only the UK. Does this mean, that i cannot criticise the defect in its system and goverment. You say intergrate, we all ready are, we are teachers, doctors, politicians, lawyers, etc etc we contribute to the economy and many non practising muslims have adopted your culture of heavy drinking till you drop, fornications, one night stands, clubbing, drugs, prostitution, adultery, etc, how much more do you want us to intergrate, those practises you mention above are not islamic, they are cultural and need to be rid of, but that come through a process of educating, which is taking place by muslims and non muslims. Overall, we cant be more intergrated, this notion of intergration is just bull, what you really want is for us to give up islam, become aetheists or something or follow some doctored european version of islam, which has been put forward by the european council at one point, where they were discussing to ask muslims to leave something out of the quran, things like jihad etc. This is uncalled for, especailly when due to the ingorance of non muslims and the media everyone thinks jihad is holy war, there is no such word in the quran as Holy war, this term was coined by the crusaders, jihad simply means a struggle, it could be in any field, a battle field, or the spiritual plane, the only time jihad become a fight for islam or allah, is when it is jihad sabillah, struggle in the path of allah. When i say us, this mean muslim, you see, you have nationlism etc, if i ask you, who you are, you will tell me your name, when infact that not what i ask if I asked for you name that would be different. But you will give your name, Bob, from England, just hypothetical. When a muslims is asked his identity, who are you, his first anwser should be I am a muslim, then my name is Ozi, and then I am from england. The latter takes less presidence in our ideology, we are muslims first, thats our identity, and due to ignorance, non muslim dont realise this, so when i brother is harmed in the furthest parts of the world its hurts all muslims, is a global brotherhood, like when America says, this is an attack on freedom loving people, so when you attack afghanistan and iraq and kill muslims, we say this is an attack on all muslims and islam. Fatwas etc and tafseer, there are good sources for this information, if due to the lack of knowledge,,one misinterprets something, that is the individuals fault not the whole faiths.

For goodness' sake where did you learn history? Back up this claim of brits burning muslims on the spot in a mosque because they were praying with references to SPECIFIC events with dates & places supplied please. Where is Ghandi in this melodramatic account?
How does the image you have of the bloodthirsty Brittish persecuting Abdul Wahab & his followers reconcile with the historical facts that : he took refuge with the ruler of Dir'iyya Muhammad ibn Saud in 1740. Both men forged an alliance in which Ibn Saud would implement & enforce the teachings of wahhabism & be called IMAMS of the movement. "They confirmed this agreement with an oath in 1744 (1157 AH)". The British helped establish the Saud dynasty, their dominions became a protectorate of the British between 1915 & 1927. In 1945 another alliance was forged with the United States. Does not sound like a lot of persecution here with all the killing & burning & whatever! How could they be shooting the Wahhabis while protecting their imams at the same time? Sorry but your : does not hold water. They protected his allies who enforced his teachings.

LOL. yes thats the british version of events, you know they called anyone opposed to the occupation as terrorists, even mandela was a terrorist first and spent most his life in jail as one. Point being, labels are easy to put on, but to understand one needs to dig deeper. The Ghandi situation had not even arised then, you see the first opposition to occupation was from muslims, they fought the brits all the time, because it was muslims who were in pwoer for a 1000 yrs until the brits came, so the muslim joined to fight them. The family of Saud had only thing to do with Aduul Wahab, in aiding him and propagating his teachings, at a time, when britian had colonised many muslim nations and were workig hard to get the jews, their state of isreal at any cost. The brits helped the Saud, because at the time, there was an islamic state in place and its HQ was Turkey, the ottoman empire's remenants, you see the brits turned the arabs against the turks who were incharge of the islamic empire, divide and conquer, so when they started splitting the military might (turkey) from the ideological area (arabia), the empire was fragmented and thus the brits gave protection to them from the turks who wanted to reunite the empire and keep it going, that was finally destroyed by Mustafa Kamal, in 1914. By this time the teching if Wahab get to india, this then causes problems for the brits, as the muslims were fighting back, and in the main, those who followed teaching of Wahab and orthodox islam, and gave up or taught against shrine worship and superstition, which was prevailant in india amongst muslim who had taken up some hindu, sikh, jewish and christian traditions,these were thrown out by Wahab, and thus a movement started to fight the occupation, sooner or later, the hindus joined in too. By this point the british waged a war of ideologies, they paid and hired men ot create new sects, and teach different things about islam, one was Ahmed Riza Brailwi, secondly, Qadiyani, both movement created by the brits to counter the Wahabist movement, the Qadiyani movement even today get funding from the british goverment, the only Islamic sect to do so. Anyway the Wahabist were winnign the war of ideologies,too, the brits tried to confuse the minds and the teachings of islam, they started hunting Wahabis, who were pointed out by follwors of sects which the brits funded and created, they were burnt, and hung, in mosques and streets. Infact the first ever chemical weapon was used in india by the brits, its was the jewel in the crown, meaning its was one land raped the most, all its resources etc, when the brits got there during the moghul era, the moghuls were rich, and so was india. Anyway, this all substantiated and factual not stuff you find on the net, it requires real research.

From an interview with Syrian born and raised Wafa Sultan:

..."I greatly appreciate the opportunity you grant me to voice my thoughts and concerns. The West must take notice of those of us who are willing to take the risk and speak up against Islamic infused hateful ideology...

Sultan: I was born and raised in Syria as a Muslim and lived there for the first three decades of my life. It took me many years, profound life experiences and an open mind to evolve into the person I am today. My first turning point took place in 1979 when I was a medical student at the University of Aleppo in Syria, and witnessed the murder of my beloved professor by members of the Islamic brotherhood. They sprayed his body with bullets in front of my eyes while screaming, “Allah Akbar!” (Allah is great.) This experience severely traumatized me and left an indelible emotional scar on me. Since then I began questioning my religion and culture.

My second major turning point was Sep 11th. At the very first day following this hideous catastrophe, I screamed as loud as I could, “Wake up America! Islam is here”, and since then I continue to voice that message. In fact, I view every single day in the US as a turning point....

...A father kills his daughter because he tries to force the rules of his religion on her -- but this has nothing to do with his religion? What is this pathology among many Muslims and Western leftists to absolve Islam of what it fertilizes into earthly incarnation?...

...I am not surprised that many Muslims deny correlation between Islam and honor killing. Denial is their way to conceal reality. After all, according to them, Sept 11th as well as suicide bombing phenomenon, honor killing and the daily terror acts perpetrated by Muslims all over the world, have nothing to do with Islam. They conveniently blame Israel and American foreign policy for all miseries inflicted by Muslims, so naturally they obscure the roots of the commonly practiced murders as that of Aqsa Parvez’s. In Pakistan for example, almost daily at least two women are murdered, legitimized as honor killing...

(...In that case, who are moderate Muslims?)
In my opinion, a moderate Muslim is one who fully supports separation of state and religion, rejects implementation of Sharia law and believes that it has no binding with Western codes of human-rights. A moderate Muslim is one who respects and supports our western system of liberal democracy; including equal rights of all religions, races and gender.

Last and not least, moderate Muslims ought to be courageous and honest enough to condemn crimes done in the name of Islam and admit that these crimes are all committed with the tacit approval of traditional Islamic theology which has not been reformed yet.

Having said that, only a very small number of Muslims are considered moderates and these people need to be supported and empowered...
(...Are Islam and democracy compatible?)
(...What is the appropriate response to the threat of Islamic totalitarianism?)
Continues...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read....96-E0B1A9E391A7

He keeps changing his email, when he cannot take the heat no more, he disappears and changes it. As for who is, please tell me, why Sudo name, what is his real name, his hisotry, etc, everything we know about him is in a book written by him about himself, and not verifiable. He is not even an expert or credible scholar, does not know arabic and has based his entire works on Tisdall.

Point one here, translations by Warraq, the guy does not even know arabic, how did he translate it, by using material from christian missionary, Tisdall who was based himself in Pakistan.

Your a joker Sean, and you know this guy is full of it. He is not the academic source you normally harp on about, you only love him cause he claims he is an apostate, non of which is verifiable.

... The teachers you are wanting to put in is, those who will not teach islam to the muslims, but secularism. Its the US who is stomping around the muslims world forcing muslims adopt your way of life and a secular way of life, one of the first things imported by the US, when entering afghanistan was Porn. Since the Taliban is out, the UN has said the, opiuim trade from afghanistan is number agains, under the taliban it was virtually zero...

Allah lets the oppressors transgress, he is allwing you americans to go as far as you can, when you reach the point of no return, your self destruction will be imminant.

WAr had been declared by who, Bin Ladin, then go get him, dont bomb the whole country.

And according to who, were muslims responsible for 9-11, that evidence is so shoddy, it would not even stand in a court of law, thats why you went the route of bombing the sh** out them so you dont have to arrest and take to to court, coz ur evidence is so shoddy, the judge would have no choice but to laugh.

RAWA, is feminist organisation wanting secularism and its like, ofcourse they have their own agenda.

... i dont think you wold budge on much, i know your true nature.

How convenient, Ozi. Then supply the email/forum and content of the debate.

How and why? the guy is a mystery and keeps changing his email, i dont need to supply anything from our debate or others, the point is you wanna discuss his credentials, lets do that then.

Tisdall ... As I stated ... Here, for those interested, is a detailed excerpt from IW's What the Koran Really Says: Language, Text, and Commentary edited with translations by Ibn Warraq. Very interesting. The second book is entitled Which Koran?: Variants, Manuscripts, And the Influence of Pre-islamic Poetry. Both deal with texttual integrity et al of the Koran--the two most important books dealing with Qur'anic Criticism (not a negative term). I do not see Tisdall mentioned in either--save for an essay in Part three of The Origins of the Koran: Classic Essays on Islam’s Holy Book. If missed, please let me know and point me to the page number. I will happily make corrections.

So point to me in the two works cited where WI used Tisdall and I will happily make corrections.

The first thing is this, when you look deeper in to hs book and sources, you will realise that Ibn Warraq has no knowledge or arabic, he has based his works on earlier translations done by Tisdall and the likes of Geiger.

Nevertheless, concerning the completeness of the Qur'an and the final arrangement of the surahs (chapters), it must be stressed --as Professor A. Jones of Oxford asserts-- that "the varying views of orientalists [on the the completeness and order of the Qur'an] are a mixture of prejudice and speculation" and consequently have not been generally accepted as being true (Cambridge History of Arabic Literature: Arabic Literature to the End of the Umayyad Period p. 240)

What do modern scholars say about Tisdall's The Original Sources Of The Qur'ân or the revised version (forwarded by another missionary William Muir) The Sources Of Islam? Commenting about Ibn Warraq's use of Tisdall's material in his The Origins Of The Koran: Classic Essays On Islam's Holy Book, François de Blois says:

The "classic essays" are of unequal value. The worst is St. Clair Tisdall's decidedly shoddy piece of missionary propaganda. The two by Mingana are not much better. It is surprising that the editor, who in his Why I Am Not A Muslim took a very high posture as a critical rationalist and opponent of all forms of obscurantism, now relies so heavily on writings by Christian polemicists from the nineteenth century.[3]


Well Sean i guess you are even more credible than Warraq.LOL

What a wonderful representative of your faith, Ozi. Praise Allah for his most kind devotees. And as I stated above ... I take no stance--pro or con--as of yet on his work. Of course you deliberately ignored this ... and blabber on about honesty and decency. Oh well.

If that is the case, then how come unlike all credible academics who have criticised his sources and his ability, his credentials, how come you dont, how come you think what he writes is valid. Thats the point mate.

Ah, there we go. The women won't have religion shoved down their throats and be able to choose their own way of life. That usually angers muslim men.

Porn ... Ummm ... Yeah ... Playboy for everyone! Woo-hoo!

Opium ... True. The only thing of worth they ever did. That said, the war on opium farmers--eradication teams--has been trying to wipe out these farms. Little hard to do, though, when they are coming under fire by Taliban and dealing with numerous warlords amongst other things.

... The Taliban instituted a strict Islamist policy against the opium trade during the final years of their regime, and by the time of their overthrow they had virtually eliminated it. But now, Lieutenant General Mohammad Daud-Daud, Afghanistan’s deputy minister of the interior for counter-narcotics, told me, “there has been a coalition between the Taliban and the opium smugglers. This year, they have set up a commission to tax the harvest.” In return, he said, the Taliban had offered opium farmers protection from the government’s eradication efforts. The switch in strategy has an obvious logic: it provides opium money for the Taliban to sustain itself and helps it to win over the farming communities...--The New Yorker, THE TALIBAN’S OPIUM WAR: The difficulties and dangers of the eradication program, by Jon Lee Anderson

Yeh and like i said, i can bring tons of things to show other wise. My point is this, the thread is not about the taliban and misconceptions about them, you wanna discuss, them lets do it on a different thread. or via PM. You should know better. As for the opium trade, when in power, they had eliminated it, now they are at war, in war, you need funds, you get them by invading iraq and afghanistan and utilising their resources and hihg oil prices,they fund it now, but taxing the opium, so what, both are usng means to fund their fight. America does it via oil and reverves in countries held in dollars and if not, you invade them (iraq ) and change them. Like i said before there are faults with the taliban, but to me the are the best people on earth,becuase they tried to implement gods law, all beit it a bit rushed and harshly, against all odds, knowing sooner or later america wont allow an islamic state inthe world. Look im sick of discussing this, judgment based on the action of the taliban is this how religions are judged objectively.

Just a matter of time before both battles are won. Oh, and let me save you the trouble ... Mate, duped by the media again!

Funny, according to your goverments, the wars are over and done, you have won. LOL. Truly Duped.


Such a loving deity.

He is, but those who are oppressors, he gives them all the time they want, not just them, to all of us, its free will, he lets us practise it to what ever extremes we want, but there is a point, of no return, when one goes so far, and transgress the limits set by god by so much, that then allah destroys them, like all nations before and to come. Many have had power like yours and where are they now.

He did, we are, and we haven't.

Ok, good for you, go get him, one man is so hard for you to find, like you see a towel head living in a cave, can not be caught be the most powerful nation on earth, or at least it thinks so. To find one man you bombed afghanistan to the stone age, not that it needed much to go there, but you surely dint help, infact i think the afghans are still waiting for you to rebuild since the war there had been won, LOL. Instead your all hooked up in Kandahar. LOL, so much for superpower, the people you fight have nothing, yet your all hooked up in one area, and have not control over others, remember, Afghanistan is one place which no one has conquered, only islam got there, by peaceful means, because that land is made for guerilla warfare, no one stands a chance agains the locals there. Its your new Vietnam. I will even go as far as saying this, take in the reigon of afghanistan and northern pakistan and kashmir, its same area prophecised in islam, where by a group of muslims will find til the end days, and those fighther will come that area and create the path and system for the coming of Imam Mahdi, so as muslims we know, you have long struggle ahead of you.

As I said to AF ... You are everything the world fears. A brainwashed fanatic incapable of reason or rational thought. You are so indoctrinated that you cannot see straight. What a frightening individual you are. And that foul language! Does your deity of approve of such things?

I cannot speak AF he will do that, my point was about 9-11, the basis of invasion and the war on terror (War on Islam). The evidence was asked for by the taliban, infact i remember those news broadcasts, when these bearded men the foreign minister of the taliban said, please show us that evidence that Bin ladin did it and we will execute him or hand him over to a nuetral country which will execute him (pakistan), becaause if he did, thats what he deserves. Who was the proof shown to , blair and his mates, real justice, dont show the afghans why your gonna bomb them even further back the stone age. The evidence is so shoddy it wont stand up in a court of law, its flawed and full of holes. As for the swearing its wrong and im sorry.

Yes, the freedom to believe as they wish.

Ofcourse, but if the country is mainly muslims, and it does not want secularism and what it brings, then why do you force it on nations,and then have the cheek we force islam on you. Islam is spreading fast in your nations, while you bomb the crap out muslims, who is forcing you. Where as your bombing muslims and forcing puppet regimes on them, in the name of democracy, which is infact secularism. RAWA are a respected organisation, i respect them greatly, but i also take alot of what they say with a pinch of salt, unless its verifiable.



Sean




Ozi

How and why?

The first thing is this, when you look deeper in to hs book and sources, you will realise that Ibn Warraq has no knowledge or arabic, he has based his works on earlier translations done by Tisdall and the likes of Geiger. Nevertheless, concerning the completeness of the Qur'an and the final arrangement of the surahs (chapters), it must be stressed --as Professor A. Jones of Oxford asserts-- that "the varying views of orientalists [on the the completeness and order of the Qur'an] are a mixture of prejudice and speculation" and consequently have not been generally accepted as being true (Cambridge History of Arabic Literature: Arabic Literature to the End of the Umayyad Period p. 240)

What do modern scholars say about Tisdall's The Original Sources Of The Qur'ân or the revised version (forwarded by another missionary William Muir) The Sources Of Islam? Commenting about Ibn Warraq's use of Tisdall's material in his The Origins Of The Koran: Classic Essays On Islam's Holy Book, François de Blois says:

The "classic essays" are of unequal value. The worst is St. Clair Tisdall's decidedly shoddy piece of missionary propaganda. The two by Mingana are not much better. It is surprising that the editor, who in his Why I Am Not A Muslim took a very high posture as a critical rationalist and opponent of all forms of obscurantism, now relies so heavily on writings by Christian polemicists from the nineteenth century.[3]

Well Sean i guess you are even more credible than Warraq.LOL

If that is the case, then how come unlike all credible academics who have criticised his sources and his ability, his credentials, how come you dont, how come you think what he writes is valid. Thats the point mate.

... Like i said before there are faults with the taliban, but to me the are the best people on earth,becuase they tried to implement gods law, all beit it a bit rushed and harshly, against all odds, knowing sooner or later america wont allow an islamic state inthe world...

He is, but those who are oppressors, he gives them all the time they want, not just them, to all of us, its free will, he lets us practise it to what ever extremes we want, but there is a point, of no return, when one goes so far, and transgress the limits set by god by so much, that then allah destroys them, like all nations before and to come. Many have had power like yours and where are they now.

... I will even go as far as saying this, take in the reigon of afghanistan and northern pakistan and kashmir, its same area prophecised in islam, where by a group of muslims will find til the end days, and those fighther will come that area and create the path and system for the coming of Imam Mahdi, so as muslims we know, you have long struggle ahead of you.

I cannot speak AF he will do that, my point was about 9-11, the basis of invasion and the war on terror (War on Islam).

The evidence was asked for by the taliban, infact i remember those news broadcasts, when these bearded men the foreign minister of the taliban said, please show us that evidence that Bin ladin did it and we will execute him or hand him over to a nuetral country which will execute him (pakistan), becaause if he did, thats what he deserves. Who was the proof shown to , blair and his mates, real justice, dont show the afghans why your gonna bomb them even further back the stone age. The evidence is so shoddy it wont stand up in a court of law, its flawed and full of holes.

As for the swearing its wrong and im sorry.

Ofcourse, but if the country is mainly muslims, and it does not want secularism and what it brings, then why do you force it on nations,

and then have the cheek we force islam on you.

Islam is spreading fast in your nations, while you bomb the crap out muslims, who is forcing you. Where as your bombing muslims and forcing puppet regimes on them, in the name of democracy, which is infact secularism.

'You are everything the world fears. A brainwashed fanatic incapable of reason or rational thought. You are so indoctrinated that you cannot see straight. What a frightening individual you are. And that foul language! Does your deity of approve of such things?

the taliban i said, did things to quickly and harshly, they people of afghanistan were not ready for an islamic state, because the state of islam has to be within a person for it to manifest on the outside.

The death sentence in islam for an apostate is only applicable in an islamic state, that is only applicable once the apostate is shown the wrong of his ways and evidence that islam is the truth, if after this he rejects, then the sentence is death. Today there is no islamic state, and its not death sentence, they can be exiled too.

Siting tagic things as above and then labeling them islamic is false, they have no room in islam, you need to stop judging islam by its followers, you dont do that with other faiths do you, for example, the recent Mormon indicents, you do blame christianity and christians as whole for the actions of a few. Muslims represent about a third of the worlds population, not all are the same, to know islam go to its teachings.

White people LOL

White people as well as black people can be muslims too you know!!!!!

But isn't everything that happens in our world Allahs will?

hi,

people do not really consider any possible option in life. women are protected. they are not second class. but men were given some duty such as duty of imam. there are many levels of ignorance. there are many men who could not see anything other than a woman when they see a woman. because men are naturally attracted to women. i know there are some ladies who defends their right on the wrong direction. if they knew what kind of men they could meet they would not jump in. imams talk about Qur'an, men listen to him and hear about God. yet if woman made the same speech, of course there would be some intellectual men who would care for words only but the rest would pay attention to woman herself.

in our daily lives we know men ad women who has certain level of education and culture. but not ever single human being is the same. many men are not even educated. why would God let women to deal with those men? that would be cruel.

men and women have very different natures. that's one of the reason why they attract each other. men are stronger and women are smarter. they complete each other. also women have fragile ego. they are more sensitive. that is the reason why Qur'an says witness of one man or witness of two women. that does not mean one man is equal to two women. in case if one woman shows her weakness because of her feelings or fear, the other one could speak the truth objectively. that is the main reason why. but of course one man could tell lie and two women, they both could tell what happened without adding anything to lead situation at a certain point. that does not change the rule of God. because rule is given to ALL. to billions of people. only God could make one rule for all, not human.

The death sentence in islam for an apostate is only applicable in an islamic state, that is only applicable once the apostate is shown the wrong of his ways and evidence that islam is the truth, if after this he rejects, then the sentence is death. Today there is no islamic state, and its not death sentence, they can be exiled too

Sorry, I don't believe in tests. God/Allah/Yahweh gave humanity dignity. Along with dignity comes obligation.

[font="Verdana"]Well, as nobody seems to have any questions that are important,

I like the fact that from the following two posts there can never be a true Islamic state, reassuring to know.

After all, if an Islamic state has to come from a state of Islam being within the person then with just one non-believer you can't have an islamic State. Well not without one contradicting the other. With no Islamic state there's no Islamic law, therefore no authority or justification for implementing the death penalty.

Sounds like a good example of what happens when man thinks he knows of and can implement Gods will., you end up with contradictions and errors.

Because you said you know him well and have debated him. So what was the content of the debate? Debate in a forum? Email? Give me the old email. Shouldn't be a problem providing this information, Ozi.

I did debate with him, it was on Yahoo, with in a forum over mikes, while other people could hear us. Now whether it was truly him is another point, the point I am making is, he is a mystery to an extent, nothing about him is verifiable.

And as i stated ... Here, for those interested, is a detailed excerpt from IW's What the Koran Really Says: Language, Text, and Commentary edited with translations by Ibn Warraq. Very interesting. The second book is entitled Which Koran?: Variants, Manuscripts, And the Influence of Pre-islamic Poetry. Both deal with texttual integrity et al of the Koran--the two most important books dealing with Qur'anic Criticism (not a negative term). I do not see Tisdall mentioned in either--save for an essay in Part three of The Origins of the Koran: Classic Essays on Islam’s Holy Book. If missed, please let me know and point me to the page number. I will happily make corrections.

So point to me in the two works cited where WI used Tisdall and I will happily make corrections.

The fact that he even uses Tisdalls and Giegers work for most of his critique on the quran shows how in capable he is, as the works of those people have long been rejected by credible peers. You say his book is edited with translations by Ibn Warraq, how can some translate something when he does not even know the language. He is dependant on translations, the fact he has edited and translated proves it all, someone who can not speak arabic or understand it, is translating it. LOL. That is a good joke sean. Where do you think he gets his translations from, and his version of the textual integrity.

You are not one to remark on credibility. And as I stated above ... I take no stance--pro or con--as of yet on his work. Of course you deliberately ignored this ... again!

LOL, you see this proves you biasness to me, in every other thread we have discussed this, you harp on about credible, academic material and authors, yet you persist not to make a judgment on IW, because you have not weighed up the pro and cons. Your a joker, because credible academics, and authoriteis on this matter have rejected his work, which mostly comes from Luxembourg, Tisdall, Geiger and some from Watts, the man himself is no scholar has no relevant qualification besides some claim that he was once muslim, that seem to be enough for you to see him as credible, while you r peers and his peers, laugh at his work and his attempt and the fact the guy is commenting on a book, which he does not even know the language of, therefore depends on earlier works done by christian missionaries and orientalists, all of whom have been rejected by their peers. LOL. You sit there tellig me, "well i dont know, i cant judge him yet" bull.

What don't you understand about I take no stance--pro or con--as of yet on his work?

You dont take a stance on his work as of yet, but you continue to defend him, i think your stance is clear to me mate. But like i said above, his peers, well not really his peers, because IW is an amatuer at best, no scholarly recognistion, or academic, yet accepted by you. Wake up mate, his work is laughed at by his peers and Luxembourgs work has been corrected by his peers too.

And like I said ... You are everything the world fears. A brainwashed fanatic incapable of reason or rational thought. You are so indoctrinated that you cannot see straight. What a frightening individual you are.

Yeh , yeh yeh, what ever mate. I have appllied all the things we have discussed previously to IW and he stinks. As for the taliban issue not for here, and i made my position clear.

Yes, look at where muslims/Islam is now compared to the Middle Ages when you were dominant and highly influential--mathematics, architecture, literature, music et al. So many wonderful things. Where are you now? Hmmm ... guess you went too far.

You right, muslims were a civilisation with great contribution to the world, at that time, there was an islamic empire, stretching from indonesia to spain, ruled by law of allah, shariah and everyhting, the econimic, political, legal systems were all islamic, since then, the muslims in spain became decadant, and turkey, the muslims since then have drifter away from their holy book and its implementation in life, while they did this, they ruled the world so to speak, since they have left this and adopted secularism, we have become the scum of the earth. In contrast, if you look at europe in the dark ages, when the church was strong, the poeple were truly inthe dark ages, as soon as they left their bible and seperated the state from religion, you have had success, but muslims, while adehering to their holy book, were successful, since they have left it, they are no longer successful, I blame muslims for this, lack of education and islamic knowledge and imperialistic colonialism today.

Good. Why don't you and your fantatical friends join the fight? Good luck. Allah be with you. Oh, and don't forget to remind ol' Mahdi to where body armor.

LOL. when the time comes, the madhdi will do what his role is, as for fighting, there are plenty doing so. On muslims side, and your side.

Talk about being duped! Like we care about your religion. Fanatics love to play the "War on Islam" card so that they can feel oppressed ... and justify flying planes into buildings, blowing up buses, subway trains and, and, and ...

Duped yes you have, like all typically american people you believe what the TV tell you. If you are not having a war on islam right now, then you ave no war, your in afghanistan, Iraq, your wanting to bomb iran, syria, and occupy parts of Saudi, all be it, at their request. If you observe all the UN and US army positions around the world, the encircle Saudi arabia and the muslim world. You call it a war on terrorism, thats your perspective and muslims call it war on islam, as bush said himself, its a crusade, in the heat of the moment he said what he meant.

Duped by the media mate! And you have my comments regarding 9-11 and conspiracy nutters.

9-11, accusation that mohammed atta lead the terrorists in to buildings, but amazingly his passport survives and ends up at the top of the rubble, your troops armour should be made of the passport material, they will then be super heroes. Also, there is plenty of doubt in the official report on what happened that tragic day, when not only non muslim americans were killed but also plenty of muslims. In order to prove it, all the US has to do, is show the CCTV footage which is in every american airport especially when boarding a plane, they just need to to show, the world those men boardig those planes, via this footage. Not only that, these terrorists leartn how to fly over a short time and simulators, the manouvre they pulled in the air to crash the planes even soldiers who have flown over 100 sorties in vietnam would struggle to pull off. mate there is plenty of doubt inthe offical verdict and its very flawed, if you want , i can discuss this in more detail on anotehr thread. Who ever did it is wrong, i dont condone it, but i also dont condone bull spread by america and its verdict. It would not even stand up in court.

Accepted.



You have the right to speak for all muslims? What nations? And how is it being forced on you? Again ... You live in the West. Has anything been forced on you? Or do you have the right to choose? You have the choice to believe as you wish, to express yourself as you are doing here. You don't want that for others?

No why would you force secularism in your own lands, it is already there. the point i made is i dont see any muslims nation bombing you back to the stone age and forcing you to islam. What i do see, is america bombing the poorest nation and Iraq to submission and then implementing puppet regimes with secular values, if that is not forcing secularims then i dont know what is. Who made America in charge of bring democracy to the world as bush say, how come he only does this to muslim countries, why not Korea, China, Burma, india, Isreal etc, regime change would be good there and lets see you implement democracy there. LOL

I have never heard of such a thing. Where did you get that idea? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S. Mosques are popping up all over the place. Sound like oppression?

Exactly, while you kill us, ridicule us, talk bull about islam, show bais view of it on the TV, associate terrorism with Islam itself, bomb the countries you hae invaded, implement secular values and american values and your puppets, you force all this on muslims, yet we hardly do anything and islam is spread like wild fire in the US, the more you go agaisnt it, the more people seem to turn to it. I do accept, the right we have to practise our religions is good, and better than some muslims countries, but those muslim countries are deseperately mixing Secular values with islamic, and the two dont mix and become oppresive, as well as the puppets you put in place too. I mean look at iraq, saddam was an american and erupoean product, gone wrong.

We are at war with terrorism and fighting side-by-side with muslims in the process.

Democracy is secularism? No, it is the freedom to choose what you so wish.

No democracy is not secularism, the two are different, democracy is the name give to hide the fact your country is deseperately trying to implement secular values around the world. Even if poeple are not ready for it, tough sh**, we will bomb you otherwise. Oh yeh the iraqis are really free, like the afghans too, inboth countries you sit in the capital city green zones and dont venture any further. You are at war with Islam and some disillusioned muslims are fighting with you and some agaisnt you. True democracy is Islam and the law of Allah.

Sean

Cheers,

Ozi

SM Sean that was way out of line, if you can't contribute without resorting to personal attacks on other members then you should step away from the discussion, we're covering some sensitive areas here and comments like this are completely unacceptable.

I like the fact that from the following two posts there can never be a true Islamic state, reassuring to know.








After all, if an Islamic state has to come from a state of Islam being within the person then with just one non-believer you can't have an islamic State. Well not without one contradicting the other. With no Islamic state there's no Islamic law, therefore no authority or justification for implementing the death penalty.

Sounds like a good example of what happens when man thinks he knows of and can implement Gods will., you end up with contradictions and errors.

So sorry but I thought my previous post was an important question I'm simply asking for your opinion on this matter so can you please try and answer it for me-

QUOTE
The death sentence in islam for an apostate is only applicable in an islamic state, that is only applicable once the apostate is shown the wrong of his ways and evidence that islam is the truth, if after this he rejects, then the sentence is death. Today there is no islamic state, and its not death sentence, they can be exiled too


Do you agree with this idea? I not sure I understand when you say there is no Islamic state. So what you are saying is if an individual refuses to except that Islam is the truth then they should therefore be put to death! Is this the case in any other religions or is it just Islam?

Ozi this is exactly why, the more muslims try to deny the fruits of islam, to absolve islam from the results of it's 1400 odd years of existence, the worse islam shows itself to be.
This is a very illuminating thing you have said and shows us a prime example of the denial and disconnect among so many muslims.
The deficit of common sense and courage inherent in that position is stunning.

1) (Pointing out) the tragic fruit of the tree of islam and labeling it islam is false... Wow. My first response is... what cowardice.

You have lost me here, i have no idea what you are talking about now.

2) They have no room in islam... That must be why silamic leaders have raised such a deafening silence in condemning the child suicide bombings of other innocent women and children, the so-called 'honor killings' and 'blood feud killings' and the stonings, the raping and genital mutilations and general shocking oppression of women and violent jihad and... I can't go through the whole litany again... It's sickening.

Islamic leaders, who are they, who are the islamic leaders you talk about, we have scholars, and the likes who constantly condemn such acts and even point to the quran and hadith to show why its wrong. All the things you mention are done by ignorant muslim or non muslims too, like hindus in india and sikhs in the UK and indiado honour killings, do you hear about them, ofcourse not their not muslim, only muslim and islam get tarnished its islam which is the boogey man now.

3) We need to stop judging islam by it's followers... Wow. What astonishing arrogance. Ohhh... silly me! What was I thinking? That would be like judging a school by the students it turns out. Or like judging a style of parenting by the children that result from it. Who ever heard of such a thing?

Yes you need to stop judging islam by its followers who are human and fallible. Do i need to judge america entirely based on what Bush is, or the KKK, or the Oklahoma bomber. Do i need to base my judgment on christian based on the mormons, catholic priest raping children, KKK, etc etc. Is this how we judge their religions. Schools are places of education, you judge it based on the results of the children, which indicate how good the teachers are. This is is different to religions, because the laltter is away of life, some poeple dont live by it properly some do, in order to assess their way of life, you got to the source, not how people practise it,because their human like me and you and make mistakes.

"...A father kills his daughter because he tries to force the rules of his religion on her -- but this has nothing to do with his religion? What is this pathology among many Muslims and Western leftists to absolve Islam of what it fertilizes into earthly incarnation?..."

If a father kills his daughter in order to force religion on her, is entirely wrong, the quran says there is no compulsion in religion. so if the father now does it because of cultural pressure and social pressure, then thats is a different problem and those poeple need educating. but you cannot blame islam, as the quran says there is no compulsion in religion.

"...I am not surprised that many Muslims deny correlation between Islam and honor killing. Denial is their way to conceal reality. After all, according to them, Sept 11th as well as suicide bombing phenomenon, honor killing and the daily terror acts perpetrated by Muslims all over the world, have nothing to do with Islam. They conveniently blame Israel and American foreign policy for all miseries inflicted by Muslims, so naturally they obscure the roots of the commonly practiced murders as that of Aqsa Parvez."

See the above verse, how illogical it is, it tries to associate 9-11 and terrorist attacks with that of an honour killing. So why is when hindus and other faiths do it, its not apart of tamil tiger terrorism or indian state sponsered terrorism. The above is typical of media trying to make islam look bad, neithr of the acts have anythign to do with teaching is islam, if some twisted guy does something, he is at mistake not islam. If a catholic priest rapes a kid, do we say this is the norm, the its associated with irish terrorism and that catholicism teaches men to rape your children. Its illogical, just like your thinking.

Yes ozi and fighter, by Islam's followers we shall know islam.
Just like every world religion. ...excep