it was not still being written up. first Qur'an which is from 7th century is exactly the same with today's.




and nobody's going to force you to do so. i am just saying. it is up to you as it is up to me.



according to my understanding, this is making your ego your God. no offense please as you are free to do as you wish

So why do they hold the old barbaric fashion style punishments...IE like hanging gays?? and do they still stone to death?? their laws are so like the OT laws

and I have already for this past 15 years now MADE UP MY MIND..with the help of God...

my ego wtf?? thats a tad disrespectful..you must think that God only ever speaks to muslims????? God is that big he speaks to those that SEEK him...no books required either...IMO no need..and im entitled to say so

I have a couple of questions I've been pondering, just curious to know the views from Muslims themselves. Hope you don't mind! I don't really know much about Islam.

-Are women who choose to wear the Hijab, but then also wear make-up and tight fitted tops etc contradicting themselves?

-I used to know a Muslim girl at college who said she couldn't draw people's faces because of her religion. She could never explain why to me though and she got around our portrates project by drawing hands and such. Since then a male Muslim friend of mine has explained that some people translate not recreating God's things to cover illustration, but he thinks it's reffering to things like cloning etc. Can somone show me what exacly the Qur'an says about such a subject and what they interperate?

Quran Sura 3:47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me ? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

King James Version: Luke 1:35: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Quran was written in the early seventh century. We can't be sure exactly when Luke was written, but probably the early-to-mid fourth century, 300 years earlier. Do you think Luke copied this from Muhammed, or was it Muhammed that copied it from Luke?

There are good reasons to believe that the gospels are forgeries written centuries after the events they purport to describe. For one thing, Papias (mid second-century) cited the OT over 300 times in his writings on the divinity of Jesus, but never once quoted from the gospels. No other books in the Bible cite the gospels. They had not been written when the Council of Nicea convened.

The Quran has quoted from a forgery whose authenticity and accuracy is in doubt. The Quran has REPEATED the Bible's mistake.

Now the problem: If the Bible has over 50,000 mistakes, as Osi contends, and the Quran quotes the Bible extensively, then the Quran has repeated many of those mistakes.

Another example:

Sura 41:9 Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals ? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds. How long did it take to create the heavens and the earth? Which was created first, heaven or earth?

Sura 41:10 He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;

Sura 41:11 Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.

Sura 41:12 Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

I count EIGHT days.


Sura 7:54 Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!

Sura 10:3 Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things. There is no intercessor (with Him) save after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Oh, will ye not remind?

Sura 11:7 And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. Yet if thou (O Muhammad) sayest: Lo! ye will be raised again after death! those who disbelieve will surely say: This is naught but mere magic.

These say SIX days.

So, which version is right and which version is wrong?



Sura 11:42 And it sailed with them amid waves like mountains, and Noah cried unto his son - and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers. Those who drowned in the flood were disbelievers.

Sura 11:43 He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. (Noah) said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned.

One of Noahs sons was drowned in the Flood.


Sura 21:76 And Noah, when he cried of old, We heard his prayer and saved him and his household from the great affliction.

Saved him and his household - no mention of a drowning.



Sura 2:62 Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Sura 5:69 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

These say that Christians' reward is with their Lord (in Heaven?). It also implies that Allah and Jehovah are the same God.


Sura 5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

Sura 3:85 And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

Are Christians going to Heaven or to Hell. Which verses are wrong?



I am not even a beginner at studying the Quran. But if I could dig these one up in about 30 minutes.... Perhaps there would be more benefit from me asking you questions about the Quran, rather than debating it. I don't think you're going to convince me and I doubt that I am going to convince you, so maybe we could settle for educating each other.
Doug

none of them are written in Qur'an. it is evil. i don't know why or even how could one stone another to death. i barely stand to see an animal get hurt. they are not following Qur'an. if they did, they would even fear to break hearts. check out www.mevlana.org that's a Muslim. a real one who followed Qur'an and advised it.



i do respect you.

i don't think it is easy to hear voice of God. you may hear your conscience that leads you to be a better person. you can be inspired by divine powers (angels) but God, that is long way to go. we need to be purified to get that close. not just within. when you were born your body was clean, your blood was clean. today it is not. mine neither. it has to be as clean as possible. you should not have fat, toxins, leftovers in your body. we all have. it need to be purified as well....as you get rid of shallow reactions and attitudes. but once more i am just sharing what i learned. saying it as friend.
just because they were born in an Islamic country make people Muslims. that does not mean each follows Qur'an. i've seen imams who had no idea of verses. they can read it but when it comes to meaning they skip -just like that! they deny verses. cos they are brainwashed- not that they are violent. they are peaceful but still they teach something that could not save anyone.

anyways, yes i DO respect you

Ohh so the only way is to use a holy book and BINGO you will hear him.?? nd if that book is islamic then all the better, it is like surround sound? lol ok kidding about the surround sound thing but....

you are now saying that I just - think I hear god?? how rude...I could say the same for you..and tell you that you only think your holy book is perfect because you so badly wish it to be...and you could well be tricked by other weird spirits...but with muslim parts of the world filled with death and violence is hardly under the watchful eyes of a god....<--but see I dont think that way....so I ask you................who do you think you are by claiming that God may not be speaking to me?? how would you know?? what have you got to support your claims?? appart from NOTHING

From reading your post...it looks as though you cant handle the fact that God can and actually DOES speak to so many that seek him...if God only ever helped and touched the - ONE KIND of human race ie muslims...then it was pretty darn pointless creating other races....heck why the hell did he bother with placing his son as a JEW?? why not a muslim?? see here is WHY..............all of holy books are man made and written to suit those that surround it..........nothing proves that it comes from God


And how you can sit there telling me that it is just my own conscience that speaks to me..........when you have NO idea what personal experiences I have had in contact with God... you have NOTHING.. .so out of jealousy you shoot off about it being my imagination!!!!..give it up!! thats just rude...especially when you cant possibly know what really goes on

With an attitude like that, and how you view other faiths...its is WHY I am glad I am not that narrow minded...........God taught me this..........I am well aware God speaks to anyone that seeks him...it dont matter what your faith is...if you reach out, God is there....this I believe is fact

And if you still cant get over that...that is your problem...for I believe that God does speak to all those from christians right up to jewish ect ect...the faith dont matter..the fact that you reach out, with blind faith and you dont care for actual evidence ...
...without the help from someone that tried to convert you.
..without the fear of what would happen IF you didnt follow him..(for I dont believe in satan or demons).
..when you just reach out because you felt it was right and followed what your heart says and not just because your family members belong to the same faith.
.if you do it without all of this.....that is a true believer and follower as far as I am concerned..

...same with friendship....the person that stands by you for YOU and not because they were told to, or because they feared you..or because theyt knew you had money lol..but because they like you for you..thats a true friend....

AND I dont wish to have a faith in God dictated to me by some book...God is that powerful, he needs no manuel !!

@ Ozi re: post 251

First, I am sorry for my tardiness in replying to your post. A sick child + school examinations= hectic emergency rule at home! Child is better, exams still going on, so I can only be very brief.



There are so far 200,000 dead & 2 million forced to flee their homes, terrorized by a government which claims to be islamic & ruling according to shari'a, yet they do not mind bombing villages or the inhuman suffering it inflicts on fellow muslims. The claim that they represent islam is their's not mine. The fact that other muslims objected to the killing of iraqis & kosovars but turn a blind eye to darfur is astonishing, as is your statement that the crimes of janjaweed are insulting only to me!! I would assume that someone somewhere in the islamic world would have stood up & protested the waste of so many muslim lives, even if the perpetrators are muslims.
- "On February 8, Sudanese government forces and allied militia launched fresh attacks on villages in the northern corridor of West Darfur. Initial reports from sources in West Darfur indicate that at least 150 people were killed in the attacks, which also left thousands of villagers without food or shelter. The attacks were carried out by Janjaweed militia and Sudanese ground troops, supported by attack helicopters and aerial bombardments. "(http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/09/sudan18026.htm)
-"In September, President Omar al-Bashir appointed Ahmad Muhammad Harun, one of two men sought by the International Criminal Court for war crimes in Darfur, as state minister for humanitarian affairs....A tribal sheikh described as "the poster child for Janjaweed atrocities in Darfur" has been given a senior government position by the Sudanese authorities....Musa Hilal, who is accused of leading militias on a state-sponsored campaign to cleanse parts of Darfur of non-Arab farmers, will act as special advisor to the minister of federal government, local media reported."http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jan/21/sudan
-"Hassan al Turabi, ...became a leader of the Sudanese Muslim Brotherhood in the early 1960s...In the 1986 elections, Turabi led a new faction of the Muslim Brotherhood, the National Islamic Front (NIF), to third place in the national assembly...{which} sought to create an Islamic state in sudan".http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/03/turabi-bio.htm.


Ozi you tend to jump into conclusions & stereotype people a little too fast. I am not ignorant about islam, Islamic studies was my minor & a related subject was the topic of my masters, I am fluent in arabic & so can consult primary sources, & finally lived several years in 2 islamic countries. I am not biased against muslims ( my best friend is muslim & is an angel). Please do not try to invalidate my questions with the "you're ignorant , biased..etc" mantra. Also, try not bringing iraq & the usa in it ( I'm not american either).

you didn't answer this question at all!

Nor this one :

You say:

Thank you very much but this isn't my culture! Nor is it the culture of the vast majority of people in the west. I asked you before if you ever met decent people, who are principled, kind..etc, still got no answer. You seem to have reduced people in western countries to :A- Hedonistically corrupt living in a hellhole of sin ( way too dramatic for my taste) B-Devoid of principles, sense of justice & therefore are spending their time & money on bombing muslims just because of their faith. This is the position I was talking about, having a world view reduced to 'all white, surrounded by evil , hostile, all black'. This oversimplification denies the legitimacy of the questions & fears that people in the west have regarding islam. Negating the connection between a belief system & the behavior of the people who practice & believe in it, specially when they use islam as an excuse to legitimize their actions, is futile. To remove any 'misconception' you believe people have about islam, you will have to deal with these 2 issues: How muslims practice islam in the eyes of the world & Are there double standards applied in the muslim world. Finally, my personal worry is the prevalent paranoid view of a non-muslim world hating muslims & islam for no reason, burning muslims in mosques because they are praying..etc. This is so unhealthy & also so untrue!

It might take some time before I could respond to your reply, but I am looking forward to reading it.

Regards
T

QUOTE (Doug1o29 @ Apr 15 2008, 03:26 PM)

I thought the Bible was part of Muslim tradition, as well as Christian tradition. Why do you use it if it has so many errors? For example, how do you rectify the Bible's statement that mankind was created from mud, while the Quran says it was clotted blood?

This is the second time that I have to point out that Islam was NOT created 1400 years ago. If you don't know the basics of Islam, don't ask any weird questions, but simply put forward what you want to get answered.

You are right, the Bible was part of Muslim tradition... In fact, the Bible was just like the Glorious Qur'an, but over time, people have changed it. And I don't mean 1 or 2 spelling-mistakes or some adding-up mistakes. This book has changed so much (by adding or leaving out many verses) that we simply cannot call it a book of Allah (anymore).

Here is a website which contain so much information that you can spend many weeks reading it: http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm.

Here are some of the key points that are expertly covered:

• Errors + Contradictions in the Bible.
• History of the Bible's Corruption.
• Proof of Man's Alterations.
• Textual Variants of the Bible.
• What parts Muslims believe in.

Noble Qur'an 8:30. They plot and plan, and Allah too plans: but the best of planners is Allah.

So I have shown you that the Bible was part of Allah's Plan. Let me show you ONE more example. I take it that you live in the United States? If so, you will have a new President in several months. Let us just imagine that Barack Obama has been named the new President... Will you follow his rules and policies or Bush's? You can't just say to Obama, 'I like Bush more than you, I believed him more than you etc. and that is why I will follow him and do what he told me to do...' (You get the point).

This is exactly what is happening in our world today. The Christians follow their New Testament, but we Muslims follow the LAST and FINAL Revelation of Allah Almighty: The Glorious Qur'an!

The Bible was meant for that time and for those people only, but the Qur'an is a book for everyone and for all times. Don't you see this? Isn't it obvious? You need to clear your head of the false ideas you have about Islam, for that is the only way you can truly understand what I am telling you.

Noble Qur'an 17:81. Truth has now arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is by its nature bound to perish.

My post got lost in arguments.

i do not see any similarity other than virgin birth. verse of Qur'an you quoted here is far away from King James version of gospel. because Qur'an never call Jesus(PBUH) son of God. in fact he is called son of Maria(PBUH)

5:46.And in their footsteps We sent 'Isa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Maria), confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

4:171.O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa (Jesus) the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam (Maria), and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

far away from being copied, it is actually contradicts with gospel.






ok, take a look at this verse please;

2:22. Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).

i quoted this from an ordinary website. if you red original text in latin/Roman alphabet, you'd see this verse does not use the word 'heaven'. if it did the word 'cennet' would be used. but it says the word sema which means sky. sky as you know it. the word 'arz' mean earth/ just ground.

in verse 41:9 tells about creating the ground only. took two days to complete creation of ground. (it is not our understanding of two days btw)
in verse 41:10 tells about ground (which created in two days) and sky. that sustenance has four parts as sustenance of ground (which is created in two days), underground, water and sky(heaven for that matter which its creation was completed in two days, this is one of those two days)

can you count how many days have been there till now? those four parts that given sustenance was created in four days. one day for each. one of the days belong to creation of ground which is created/completed in two days. that does not make totally six days. it makes five. because one of those four days belongs to creation of ground only.

41:11--
41:12 tells about creation of sky and its seven layers which completed in two days (including its sustenance which took a day).




six days would be right calculation. yet the verses you offer from surah 41 are also gives out six days.






one of the sons of Noah(PBUH) was killed by flood. verse 11:42 mentions that. why not 21:76 mention the boy? maybe it is because that is not a father and son story to tell. but as it was said his son was one of the disbelievers, next verse that comes after 21:76 actually tells about his(son's) kind;

[77] We helped him against people who rejected Our Signs: truly they were a people given to Evil: so We drowned them (in the Flood) all together.

including son of Noah(PBUH) what's your point on these verses anyway? i do not understand why you perceive that verse not mentioning boy himself as an error. explain please.




i do not know about Jehovah. there is only one God. we call it Allah, Christians call it God and if Jews call it Jehovah, i think it is because we speak different languages. however we have another word for God that we use when we talked about zeus for example. we don't use that word for Allah.

[2:62] Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

2:62 tells about Jews, Christians and Sabiin who believed in Qur'an. whenever it mentions 'shall be no fear' that means heaven. so even if one is Christian or Jew, as long as they follow the basics of the religion of God they would be saved. as there are Jews and Christians today who actually follow the right path. their rituels might be different from ours or from each other, but the basics of their practice matches each other and Qur'an. that's what matters, not what you wear, not country you live, not the language you speak....none of them matter. only basic steps of religion which explained in every holy book matters. people do not need to convert this or that. as long as they knew basics of one and only religion of God, they would be saved.




earning heaven or hell is not result of an id. is it clear? many Muslims, Christians and Jews would earn hell. just converting to Islam would not save anyone. also being a Christian is not a reason to earn hell. labels has nothing to do with it. so, Christians who followed basics of religion would be saved, Christians who denied them would earn hell. what's there to confuse you my friend? you know, some Muslims think all the Jews and Christians would go to hell just because they are Christians and Jews. some Christians think the same for Muslims. that is funny. they think they are different from each other but they speak the same. none of us chosed where to be born. of course, Christians would go to church and also earn heaven. if they accepted basics of religion they would.





ask me anything you want. if i knew the answer i would be nothing but generous.

may i?

imo, if a lady does not want to put make up but she puts make up anyway is contradicting herself

there are many different kinds of people. as there are women who wears jean&t-shirts and does not like to put make up, there are women who covers her hair and likes to put make up on. how you look, what you wear are not one of the basics of Islam. therefor we don't judge people for how they look. it is more important what skills they have, how they treat people, if they had greed and hatred...there are some women that you can only see their eyes, but they do gossip and they cause pain to others. there are also women who looks western and they have loving hearts. in other words, what you wear, how you present yourself in society would not make you more or less humane. yet humanity is what matters. if one is greedy, hateful, cruel..etc then even if she covers herself for thousand times she won't be on the right path.

for that drawing pictures issue.
let me tell you one thought about this. there are different kinds of Jesus(PBUH) illustrations. they were not equally same. but Jesus(PBUH) himself has one unique form. during time of Mohammed(PBUH) people did not picture him. if they did, then maybe today each mosque would have another optional look of his. none of them would be his real look. today people might have a picture of Jesus(PBUH) in their minds. because of those illustrations. is it a good thing? well, i don' think so. but if, during those times, cameras were invented, that would be a different story. taking photos is a sin? no, it is not. i hope that answers from an angle.

I would first like to say that I have found this thread to be very interesting and enlightening, and, after pouring over 23 pages of it (I'll have to go back and catch the last few pages later, my eyes are burning hehe ), I have had some interesting thoughts.

An interesting thing was brough up earlier in the thread about the Islamic calendar, and I belive Ozi responded that the calendar was based on a part of the life of the prophet, and that it would be somewhere in the 1400's right now. This made me see an interesting correllation. It was during the 1478 AD that the Inquisition was established in Spain, only a few hundred years after the bloody crusades. If this forum then were being hosted during the Christian 1400's rather than the Islamic 1400's, would it be the Christians defending their attrocities? (not trying to start a fight on this, just thought it was an intersting side note)

I agree with Ozi when he says that you cannot judge the merits of a religion based on the actions of its followers. Every nation and religion has people who are going to be violent towards others, but that doesn't mean that that nation or religion condones those practices. We each take our own views of what we are taught, and as such there are always going to be fanatics and extremists who feel that their way is the only way, and the only resort to differing views is violence. Sadly, as much as we would like to think so, we as humans are simply not a peaceful race. There was a quote, i can't remember who by right at the moment, but it seems very true at this moment (this might not be exact, but it's close) "One person alone is a saint, Two people, and you'll invent love, Three, and a family will form, Four, and you have a community. Five people, and you will invent the outcast. Six, and you have factions, Seven, and you'll invent war"

There's more I'd like to say, but I'm tired and my brain's all muddled from reading so much, so maybe tomorrow

Or maybe they all come from the same source !

Why are you ao angry ? This is a discussion forum . Discuss.

he/she isnt the only one showing anger (not that I fel he/she was showing anger lol...but the OP on wards shows anger too

it happens!!

I can't help but feel like that post is rather... faffing around the subject?

Sorry. My brain works in coherent yes and nos, perhaps? I'm lost with regards to your post.

I understand what you're getting at in the answer to the first question, completely. And I agree. But I wasn't asking if they was a good person, or a good Muslim. Good people can be hypocritical, too.
Whichever way one looks at it, we all "enhance" the way we look. If a woman chooses to wear the Hijab, it seems strange to me to sexualise themselves with fitted clothes and make-up. At least to me, this seems contradictory. Maybe I'm missing something?


As for illustrations of Jesus. I think I agree... To a point, at least. Illustratons are interpretations and thus can never be accurate. But that is half the point. You see what you want to see and recreate what you want to recreate. So I understand and agree why, for example, the portraits of Jesus are "wrong." It's disrespectful to portray someone of great importance "wrongly" and it's impossible not to portray them wrongly. Though I have to argue on the photography side of things. A photo is no less influenced by artistic interpretation. The only truth in image is sight. No photo portrays exactly what you see.

But what about drawing other things? Is any "interpretation" of God's creations wrong? If so, why? If not, why?

Imo - and i'm not an expert - this might be due to the era and the region Islam first came to the world . about 1500 years ago .
Today we are the 10th of "Rabii than " 1429 Hijry , but back then the populations of Arabia , Yemen , ..( and the whole region) worshipped idols like Hobbal , Ellat or Elozza .. very primitive pagan and highly commerciable stone and/or dates Gods ( yes dates ; edible gods far sale to pilgrims ) .
Islam , just like the two other abrahamic religions taught people to worship the only God .. not the stone statues or date figurines . So worshippers were probably told to stay away from any goddly representation to avoid a setback. I believe the tradition stayed .. just a historical outcome .

It's the year 1429 Hijri , lunar calendar that started at the Prophet's exodus to Yathrib ( Madina today ) . Before that it is unknown wether there was a steady calendar in that region ( or at least to me ) . I would assume some seasonal schedule , according to the famous "summer and winter " trips to Yemen and Syria ( Shaam ) for trade caravans.

I see.

I still don't understand! lol

What, in Islam, would you call... for example, I dunno, 200 B.C.?

well , Islam is NOT a country .. in muslim countries you would use the christian calendar and the hijri calendar .. ( except for KSA I think , but i'm not sure ) Like in the newspapers they would have the "regular" date on one side of the page and the Hijri date on the other side .

Okay. Seems a bit strange, but okay.

I assumed that because of early Islamic astrology that the calender would have it's own system which was preferred over BC and AD.

You might me confused over "islamic " astrology .. actually it's Arabic astrology ..if this is what you mean.

i understand what you mean. i share your opinion. ideal way is not to use make up. but i do not think it would be justice to make generalization. there are so many different kinds of people, so many different cultures and habits and there are different kinds of make-ups.




there are many animal and flower illustrations in Islamic art.

i am unsure, i'll ask about it.

are you asking the exact time difference between Hijri and western calender?

No, and yes? Maybe.

I just find it a little confusing that everyone around the world seems to use BC and AD.

And what is the equivalent in Hijri? But it appears there obviously isn't one.

Whilst on the subject, what does Islam have to say about the age of the world? Is it the same as Christian views?

First question, then: You keep saying that Islam was not created 1400 years ago (c. 608 AD). According to Wikipedia, Muhammad lived from 570 to 632 AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammed). 1400 years ago would be right in the middle of his life. So when do you say that Islam was created?

Second question: Agreed that the Bible contains a lot of mistakes, including mistakes of fact and fundamental ones that affect doctrine. But the Quran quotes extensively from this mistake-laden book. How do you know it isn't copying the mistakes?

I take it you are not familiar with the US. Both Presidents have great power that is, at the same time, limited. Whether I like Bush or Obama better will make little difference. Personally, I choose not to follow either of them. They are supposed to be in office to serve the people and I'm one of "the people." So your example is not a good one.

Exactly my point: both religious traditions are leading us into chaos. We need to halt this trend, or face serious consequences. What do you suppose would happen if al-Qaeda got ahold of a nuclear weapon? What if they used it on a US city? The political climate in the US is such that a sitting President would be impeached if he didn't retaliate. And that means that some Muslim country (probably Iran) would get nuked. And as the US has enough nuclear weapons to carpet-bomb a country Iran's size, there would be very little left of it.

The only salvation (if there is one) is reason and dialogue. We can talk together now, or die together later.

I am an agnostic, NOT a Christian. You can disprove the Bible and it will make no difference to my position. At the moment, I am using the Bible only to establish the age of the Quran: if the Quran quotes parts of the Bible that were written in the fourth century, that's a pretty good clue that the Quran was written AFTER the fourth century. That puts the writing of the Quran between the Council of Nicea (325 AD) and Muhammed's death (632 AD). The Quran can be no more than 1683 years old, or less than 1376 years old.

At this point, you still haven't even addressed my original question: how do you know the Quran is not just a collection of ancient myths and legends? How do you verify it?
Doug

P.S.: I've asked fundamentalist Christians the same question regarding the Bible. They can't answer it, either.
Doug

If the Qur'an is the last in the series, why don't Muslim's believe Jesus was the son of God?

Islam teaches that the Roman soldier's were blinded by Allah so that they did not see Jesus and instead were given the illusion by Allah so that Judas Iscariot was mistaken and seen as Jesus and crucified in his place.

Ok let me get a few things straight, all the contradictions you claim are in the quran have either been answered previously on other thread by me and other members, and if yu cannot be arsed to check for them, then bring you claim infividually and i will deal with them one by one, and clear your misconceptions.

As for Ibn Warraq, you use him as a source, well you are using someone who has no academic credentials, scholarly or anything of the sort. the guy does not know arabic and bases his work on previous orientalists and their papers and translations, and even those source have been rejected not only by muslims, but by their own peers as ridiculous. so the first thing here is that, your using a source which has no credentials in muslim world or the non muslim world, especially the Academic and scholarly worlds.

As for us believing in the bible, muslim do, we believe in the original Injil and torat, they no longer exist, even the bible itself claims that the scribes have changed it, so a book is proclaiming its own downfall itself. You give an example of certain passages and aspects that we would believe is true in the bible, you say mankind in the bible is created from clay, in the quran a blood clot, well actually in the quran it says, clay in one place, blood clot in another place, water in another place and so on, do you think these are contradictions, if so, you make the classic mistake, that many have made. For example, if i wrote a book, in it i write i made a cup of tea, in place i write to make tea you need water, in another place, i write tea is made of tea leaves, in another place sugar, in another place milk etc. Does this mean i have contradicted myself, no, its rather conciliation, you need all those ingrediants to make a cup of tea, thats the same in the quran, clay,blood, water etc all make up the human being. Its conciliation not contradiction.

If you want to discuss the alleged contradiction in the quran, please do so and bring the verse that contradict and why? I will be waiting.



Nice, fish and chip the staple diet of Great Britain. With mushhy peas........



LOL, typical capeo, anyway, mate. Those contradiction have been answered and cleared, you obviously miss those. You share the common ability to bit hit by the truth in face like a slap, and still dont see it, you my friend is what the quran describes, blind, deaf and dumb, your hearts are blackened and closed to the truth.

You want discuss contradiction then do so, i have no problem, but dont patronise us.

I dunno if that was just written very badly, but how does this answer my question? I'm lost.

Assuming it was even directed at me.

How can you know a book that has never been seen ... is perfect? Sounds like the Christians proclamation of the Autographs!

UUUGH! APOLOGETICS!

Textual Variants of the Qur'an

Most Muslims claim that the text of the Qur'an is identical to that received by Muhammad. This is a convenient thing to believe, but is it the truth? There is overwhelming evidence that it is not ...

Answering Islam
http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Text/index.html



DOUBLE UGH!!!!! MORE APOLOGETICS!!!!!!!!!

And ... "Here is a website which contain so much information that you can spend many weeks reading it: http://www.answering-islam.com/contra.htm"

"Here are some of the key points that are expertly covered":

The Qur'an: An Evaluation of the Muslim Claims

The Muslim claims about the Qur'an concentrate around the topics of

Textual Integrity (today's text is exactly the same as recited by Muhammad)
Logical Consistency (no contradictions within the Qur'an).
Miraculous Features
Supernatural Eloquence
Scientific statements far ahead of its time
Numerical miracles
Prophecies

An overview article touching on many of the above issues:
The Alleged Divine Origin of the Qur'an: [Part 1], [Part 2] (off site)

Comparing the best arguments for Christianity and Islam:
The Resurrection Versus the Qur’an In the Light of Logic

Further issues in need to be investigated are

Incompleteness and Incoherence of the Qur'an
Is the Quran Preserved? examines a theo-logical problem
Abrogation in the Qur'an
Abrogated Verses Of the Quran
Abrogation in the Koran
The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran
Abolishing what Satan proposes? — A Fresh Look at the Reason for Abrogation in the Quran
Promise and fulfillment in the Bible (in contrast to abrogation)
Biblical Consummation versus Islamic Abrogation: [Part 1], [Part 2]
Various articles with information and thoughts on the issue of abrogation: [*], [*], [*], [*], [*], [*], [*]
Sources of the Qur'an
Legends, Myths and Fables incorporated into the Qur'an
The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an
The interpretation of the Qur'an
Themes in the Qur'an (teachings of the Qur'an on various topics)
What the Qur'an says about the Bible (overview page)
Commentary on individual passages (an alternative Tafsir)
E. M. Wherry's Comprehensive Commentary on the Qur'an
Different Versions of the Qur'an
Issues regarding Translation of the Qur'an
Translations of the Koran (history, overview) [also as PDF]
Translating the Qur'an
Is The Qur'an Translatable? Early Muslim Opinion
Assessing English Translations of the Qur'an
Miscellaneous topics:

Differences of Shi'a perspective regarding the Qur'an
Chronological order of passages in the Quran, cf. Summary of Qur'an details

The Qur'an: An Evaluation of the Muslim Claims
http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/index.html

MK,

Sean

MUSHY PEAS?! UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH!!!!!

Simply curious ... So one must know Arabic to understand the Qur'an? What of those muslims around the world who do not and have to rely on a translation?

MK,

Sean

When the original writings of the quran is arabic and they believe its god word so its perfect and can't be altered its pretty simple to see that a translation would make it imperfect.

So continues their quest to conquer the world by the sword which in their minds Isa will accomplish. Then everyone will speak Arabic!

Which is why it's all so stupid.

Because it means we'd have to learn Arabic to become a Muslim.

And it also means this entire thread is wrong, because they are interpretations which are then translated to English.

You do not have learn Arabic to become a Muslim. They can simply import a cleric to your neighborhood mosque who will explain all you need to know. I personally would not want to be part of a belief system in which I cannot read the text for myself nor would I want to attend a church where people are not challenged to read the text for themselves....God knows we have many of those type of churches as it is.

Well said guys!

Oh, and Classical Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek to read the Bible!

MK,

Sean

In his interpretation and the translation to English, it would become inaccurate.

Actually we do have evidence that the quran has not changed a single word since its inception. Thats is clarified by western academics and orientalists, those of credibility in the world. You see you are all quick to say the quran is from man, yes men wrote the words that came out of muhammed, who god used as a mouth piece, the words themselves are from god, infact lets say i agree with you they not, if they are truly of human origin, then produce only two verses like it or that which exceed it. Simply, if a human wrote it, then another human can exceed it or match it. When you attempt this, use all the power and resource in the Universe to do it, and you still wont manage it.



Similarity does not mean copy cats, it could also mean the consistency in the same message there for aspects in all scriptures which are repeated through out them, simply mean those aspects and teaching are the true ones, as they keep being repeated over centuries and generations. For example, the Vedas, talk about women dressing modeslty like waering a hijab, funnily enough the bible refers to it and the OT and the quran, does that mean they all copied the vedas, possible, but that where experts analyse and see if any of that influence could have come in, and in all cases, they are too far apart and distant of each other to be influenced, so its something which is the truth and repeated over the eons by god as his commandment.




You say you believe in god, and you follow him in away which feels right to you, I ask you, did you ask God how he wants you to behave or worship him, do you think god is not worthy of you , that you can decided how you deal with him your creator, did you question god about him and what he wants, or do you assume that what you do is right based on your own whims. Its easy for people to say they believe in god and they worship him how they want. WEll what about the object you worship does he not have say, your creator, as to what he wants from you. Is that not arrogant to say, well listen up god i will worship you and thank you how i want, not the way you want , infact i wont even research how you want me to be.



Good question. My wife wears a hijab, when i married her, or before it, she did not. I told her not to wear it for me, but to research it herself and do it for god, not for me. She wears a hijab, under she can wear make up, she can dress with tight jeans or what ever, only i see her in those clothes or her imediate family. The hijab is her public attire, there is no contradiction there, only time there is, when a muslim women does not wear a hijab at all, as she is directly conflicting with gods command. Same applies to men, infact it implies to them first.

As for drawing, allahs creation, living creation like human and animals is wrong in islam, as allah say you draw these things, yet you cannot put a soul inthem. On the day of judgment, those who drew men and women and animals etc, will be asked, bring you creations to life, put a soul in them, make them life ourselves, you see, its drawing that first leads to creating idols, which eventually get worshipped themselves, yet they have no soul, no life etc.

I didn't miss anything. You just rationalize the contradictions away with completely baseless theological responses you've been spoonfed. There's no point in such a discussion as you freely discard actual historic and archeological evidence to fit your worldview. I've been down this road too many