QUOTE (tetisheri @ Apr 20 2008, 01:12 AM)
you must realize that human nature is the same everywhere. Have you been to the middle east? I lived in a north african country for a couple of years & can tell you that leaving your house unlocked is really a very bad idea. All houses there have windows with iron bars. Our large guard dog was not enough to scare away thieves, so we had to hire a guard. Personal anecdotes aside, do you remember the case of the Saudi woman who was
raped yet received a 6 months prison sentence plus 90 lashes ( was 'pardoned' by the king after it became a huge scandal) , there was also the case of the french adolescent who was raped also in SA. Women (veiled & unveiled) were sexually harrassed by a mob of several hundred men in down town cairo February 2006. This was not a unique incident, nor is it restricted only to Egypt or SA. To judge how serious it is, here is what 'The Egyptian Center for Women's Rights' had to say in its "Campaign Against Sexual Harassment" :
As for drugs, there is the problem of the widespread use of Qat in Yemen for example, Lebanon,Morocco's production of hash...etc. Did you read post 245? What you call " the cornerstones of freedom in western society" are also prevalent in the east. I hate to disillusion you, but people are the same everywhere. One cannot demonize a group while idolizing the other.
At last Ozi you had something kind of nice to say about western society , though you tend to take with one hand what you just gave with the other!!! May I remind you that the individualistic/imperialistic societies are the largest donors of aid worldwide? Also, human rights bodies such as amnesty international,
or aid agencies like the red cross, médecins sans frontières, or WWF & greenpeace, were all founded in the west, & depend on volunteers & donations from the west. Hence, next to the materialistic selfishness there is also a softer, kinder side. Neither east nor west are all black or all white no matter which religion they follow.
You could have fooled me! You're not half as vocal in expressing that anger as you are about iraq. I still say I haven't seen one demonstration anywhere in islamic countries denouncing the murder of innocent fellow muslims & that silence is louder than any words. Sudan actually is very rich in natural resources including oil particularly in the area of darfur. This is the reason why their own government is bombing them "back to the stone age" .Had the US intervened there, people would have said "bad self-serving america, still after the oil"! they didn't & you are still pointing your finger. Actually, people would have taken any intervention as a proof of america's "anti-islamic" stance. I still feel it has more to do with who is doing the killing, foreign or muslim.
Ozi, I'm NOT american! I can assure you I never supplied Saddam with a pin, let alone a bomb. Kidding aside, he killed several thousand people with 'home made' chemical weapons ( hence 'chemical ali').You're also forgetting the role of russia, one of the largest suppliers of weapons. Please check how many charities are active in darfur vs ...total silence or even denial. You forgot that Pakistan also has a nuke. Honestly, do you feel that the world will be a safe place if iran goes nuclear?
What "muslim terrorists committing atrocities in the name of islam"? So far you have consistently denied all attacks from 9/11 to 7/7, to the most recent plot! Who then are these 8 people whose photos were published? Media spin? These denials only creat a credibility problem. No problem could ever be solved if its existence is persistently denied & swept under the carpet. There is a problem of violence that has to be faced. When you insist that jihad does not mean holy war, but 'struggle', I can't help but feel that you are addressing the wrong audience. It is all these misled muslim young men who should be informed by their sheikhs & imams about the real meaning of jihad. As for northern irland, the root of the problem is population movement from scotland to irland, when the new protestent scots settlers were given land & power over the indigenous catholic irish. It has more to do with the history of the british crown than christianity. If you find anywhere a record of an ira terrorist saying "I did it in the name of my church", I will stand corrected & apologize.
The rest follows below
QUOTE
you must realize that human nature is the same everywhere. Have you been to the middle east? I lived in a north african country for a couple of years & can tell you that leaving your house unlocked is really a very bad idea. All houses there have windows with iron bars. Our large guard dog was not enough to scare away thieves, so we had to hire a guard. Personal anecdotes aside, do you remember the case of the Saudi woman who was
raped yet received a 6 months prison sentence plus 90 lashes ( was 'pardoned' by the king after it became a huge scandal) , there was also the case of the french adolescent who was raped also in SA. Women (veiled & unveiled) were sexually harrassed by a mob of several hundred men in down town cairo February 2006. This was not a unique incident, nor is it restricted only to Egypt or SA. To judge how serious it is, here is what 'The Egyptian Center for Women's Rights' had to say in its "Campaign Against Sexual Harassment" :
Ok the first mistake you are making is this, your assuming i am defending muslim countries, that I am not, i know the problems prevailent in the muslim countries and societies. To simply anwser youa and get my point across in a simply way is this. America, is the torch barer of freedom, secularism and Capatalism, therefore its should be looked at in more detail the freedoms of its states and its problems. What you not realising is this, the secular way of life, law, and capatalism, are the cornerstones of muslim country set ups too. The result is the same, as what you get in America, thats my whole point, your way of life, has some good things, but overall its degenerative to society and makes it fragmented, the family nuclues goes out of the window, rape, theft, murder, drugs etc become the norm, this is what is happening in muslim countries, but America as the torch barer of this lifestyle, the american dream is the cause, its force full nature around the world occupying and putting pressures on nations to adopt their style of governing. The results is exactly what happens in SA, Egypt. You see if muslim countries told America to stuff it where the sun dont shine, in order to implement their own system an islamic system, they would be bombed back to the stoneage, so there is no choice available too, its the American, (western way) or the highway. In conclusion muslim ought to govern according to islam, not secular, western values and governing systems.
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As for drugs, there is the problem of the widespread use of Qat in Yemen for example, Lebanon,Morocco's production of hash...etc. Did you read post 245? What you call " the cornerstones of freedom in western society" are also prevalent in the east. I hate to disillusion you, but people are the same everywhere. One cannot demonize a group while idolizing the other.
Precisely, you make countries live your way, the same problem you have, become theirs too, in the name of freedom, this illusionary freedom, to do bad things, poeple lose what is true freedom. People are the same, and will do similar things, its what governs them is what moulds the societies, and at current, the world has problems, due to living the american dream, or it being forced on them.
QUOTE
At last Ozi you had something kind of nice to say about western society , though you tend to take with one hand what you just gave with the other!!! May I remind you that the individualistic/imperialistic societies are the largest donors of aid worldwide? Also, human rights bodies such as amnesty international,
or aid agencies like the red cross, médecins sans frontières, or WWF & greenpeace, were all founded in the west, & depend on volunteers & donations from the west. Hence, next to the materialistic selfishness there is also a softer, kinder side. Neither east nor west are all black or all white no matter which religion they follow.
this is exactly what our goverments do to. Yes you give a lot , but we take more. According to the UN, the western population, equates 20% of the world, the third world makes the rest up. Yet this 20% consume 80% of the worlds resources, the other 20% is fought over the 80% in the third world. True western justice, left off where colonialism, finished. The above my dear, just become token gestures.
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You could have fooled me! You're not half as vocal in expressing that anger as you are about iraq. I still say I haven't seen one demonstration anywhere in islamic countries denouncing the murder of innocent fellow muslims & that silence is louder than any words. Sudan actually is very rich in natural resources including oil particularly in the area of darfur. This is the reason why their own government is bombing them "back to the stone age" .Had the US intervened there, people would have said "bad self-serving america, still after the oil"! they didn't & you are still pointing your finger. Actually, people would have taken any intervention as a proof of america's "anti-islamic" stance. I still feel it has more to do with who is doing the killing, foreign or muslim.
Your not understanding, I am against any type of protest, its not recommended in Islam, and i dont recommend to other muslims to protests, its achieves nothing. As the Uk can tell you, it did not stop anyone going to iraq. As for Sudan what is happening there is tragic, and international communities need to do something about it, like for example, stop selling your made weopans to the goverment, it helps them stay in power, like you kept saddam strong and in power, during tthe time he was your best friend, cause he spent money on you. Muslims are bothered about Darfur, your media wont show that, its has no reason to, only shows what demonises islam, and makes islam look as though its an Arab thing, when infact arabs only make up 25% of the muslim population. The point is, you seem to care about alot of issues, like tibet, etc, in your country, howcome you dont protest about it, i dont protest about anything, why dont you protest and lobby the goverment, to take actions, stop selling weopons and do something good, collectively not unanimously, like Iraq, (illegal war) even accoridng to the bodies like UN, created by the west, yet you ignore these bodies, because at the end of the day, they serve you, not you serving them. Protest, for iraq, sudan, kashmir, chechnya, palestine, (over 50 yrs of torment), do you shed a tear, light a candle, do a vigil for them, i doubt it. They way you harp on about Sudan is as though even muslims verbally condemn it, you probably wont be happy until we bomb them etc, but thats your job in the west, especially America as the world police.
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Ozi, I'm NOT american! I can assure you I never supplied Saddam with a pin, let alone a bomb. Kidding aside, he killed several thousand people with 'home made' chemical weapons ( hence 'chemical ali').You're also forgetting the role of russia, one of the largest suppliers of weapons. Please check how many charities are active in darfur vs ...total silence or even denial. You forgot that Pakistan also has a nuke. Honestly, do you feel that the world will be a safe place if iran goes nuclear?.
Firstly, a country like America dictates to other, and say dont have nukes, your a danger, yet they are the only country with a record of using one. To me they pose more danger than Iran, if you can have one, how can you stop others. Pakistan is often called the Islamic Nuke, what poeple fail to realise is that, the islamic bomb exploded the day muhammed started spreading islam, since then islam is in every corner of the earth, and continues to grow fast although the western media collectively demonise it. America, sold weapons to iraq and Iran at the same time in the hope that they wipe each other out, did they try and stop it , NO? they instead supplied both sides, your were not alone, its was a good opportunity for all, including the UK, who back then loved Saddam. Funny how one day he is a mate, the next a tryrant created by you. You ask if iran has a nuke, will the world be a safer place, i think so, because what you can see is this, anyone with a nuke, America wont attack, like Korea, China, SAudi, Pakistan, etc, so even though they act as world police, only against weak nations, so if your well equipped so to speak, At least you know there is a lesser threat you will be invaded by the worlds most powerful terrorists. my answer the world and iran would be safer from Western Imperialism and threats.
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What "muslim terrorists committing atrocities in the name of islam"? So far you have consistently denied all attacks from 9/11 to 7/7, to the most recent plot! Who then are these 8 people whose photos were published? Media spin? These denials only creat a credibility problem. No problem could ever be solved if its existence is persistently denied & swept under the carpet. There is a problem of violence that has to be faced. When you insist that jihad does not mean holy war, but 'struggle', I can't help but feel that you are addressing the wrong audience. It is all these misled muslim young men who should be informed by their sheikhs & imams about the real meaning of jihad. As for northern irland, the root of the problem is population movement from scotland to irland, when the new protestent scots settlers were given land & power over the indigenous catholic irish. It has more to do with the history of the british crown than christianity. If you find anywhere a record of an ira terrorist saying "I did it in the name of my church", I will stand corrected & apologize.
i agree thigns should not be swept under the carpet, like the wreckage from 9-11 the metal and so on, quickly shipped to china to be melted, so independant forensics could not take a look and investigate. 9-11 is so shoddy, the official verdict, it would not even stand up in court, the 19 hijackers, 7 are still alive, so much for you photos, maybe spin does work. Overall 9-11 has to many holes, not the place to discuss, i condemn who ever did this tragic act, in which many muslims died too, Simply show the CCTV footage which is in every ariport in America, where you board a plane, show those terrorists going on the plane. 7/7, the london bombing, the only time, a suicide bomber, buys food from McDonalds, then goes back because her was short changed, why? especailly if you are going to die. Why buy return ticket, when you dont plan to return. Why use timers on bombs, when in all suicide bombing the person is the timer himself, when he decides it happens, you see there are flows with it all. With over 200 diclassified documents showing plans and activities by America to cause self inflicted wounds for motive to invade other countries is available how can one put it past them this time, to invade the poorest nation on earth, the American poeple are good and uphold christian values at large, they are not war mongers, unfortunately, their goverment has a different destiny planned for America. How can i be addressing the wrong audience, when its the western people and media which portray Jihad as Holy war, muslim know its a stuggle, could be on a battlefied, its could be spiritual, its has many arenas for that struggle, there is not term in islam as Holy war, this is what the crusades were. The closest thing to holy war in islam, is Jihad - Fi- Sabilillah. STruggle in the path of allah. Usually meant to fight for Islam and its preservation. So i addressed the right audience. You dont find anywhere a muslim saying i did in name of my mosque, maybe in the name of allah. But the IRA, and people there today get killed, or beaten for wearing the wrong colours etc, CAtholic on protestant, yet it is not classed as christian terrorism. The tamil Tigers, do bombs in Sri-lanka, is it called Hindu terrorism, etc etc. You have double standards and only reserve demonisation, for islam.
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This view that all problems will be solved once society returns to its 'authentic' cultural beliefs is characteristic of all revivalistic movements.
Well if you research history, when the west stood more by the church and were governed by the church and christianity, you were in the dark ages. islam,on the other hand, when it stook to its teachings, and its followers implemented it in their everday lifes, islam ruled from indonesia to spain, as soon as the decided to leave the implementation of islam in their countries, since then they have become scum, living by western secular law, while holding islamic values at home, the two dont mix.
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Taliban again? How could a stata be called "Islamic" if it is funded by profits from an activity prohibited & 'cursed' in the quran? You yourself agreed that drugs are prohibited as "muskar". I will copy from a previous post:
-http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060921&articleId=3294 : "The United Nations has announced that opium poppy cultivation in Afghanistan has soared and is expected to increase by 59% in 2006. The production of opium is estimated to have increased by 49% in relation to 2005. "
-http://www.unodc.org/pdf/publications/afg_opium_economy_www.pdf:"Between 1996, when the Taliban took control of most of Afghanistan, and the year 1999, opium production...Taliban originally had planned to
prohibit opium production, they gave up on this plan once in power, and restricted the drug prohibition to
cannabis only. The acceptance of the agricultural tax, known as ushr (usually 10%) and the zakat (usually
20%) by the mullahs and the local authorities was interpreted by the farmers and itinerant workers as an
implicit support for the cultivation of opium poppy.52 In addition, the Taliban also received taxes from the
opium traders. There are also indications that some of the local Taliban commanders and mullahs were
personally involved in the opium trade. Even more important, a number of warlords, who were already
involved in the opium trade, surrendered to the Taliban in exchange for the promise to continue with their
lucrative opium business. Both the Taliban and various groups fighting against them (“Northern Alliance”)
benefited from opium poppy cultivation and trade. However, as most of the opium producing areas were
under Taliban control, the largest profits out of opium were also reaped by the Taliban."
This is a quotation from a UN report. I guess you agree with me then that they fall in the category of 'cursed' according to the quran?
For a country which has farmers dependant on the opium fr survival, had to get rid under the Taliban, but ofcourse, there may have been some Talban officals or workers involved inthe trade as were most of the Northern Alliance, the very poeple which are a part of the coalition against the taliban, infact according to the UN, the northern Allaince and its human rights records are worse than most in the world, yet, they seem to be your friends in afghanistan and now they share power with Karzai. The taliban on opiuim were against it, the tax is about right, but Zakat, is only 2.5% of annual surplus earnings, which is given to the poor, they were slowly weeding out the trade of opium upon which most afhans farmers depended, for them to grow other stuff, it had to be worth it monetry wise, the taliban were trying to weed it out, this was going to be a slow process, as aFghanistan was and now is again under the coalition the number supplier of opium. Why dont you compare how low the taliban had it, with how high the trade is now, since the US and Karzair took over.
Ozi
I hope teri will be pleased
Of course, Mr. Muslim will deny such material as being completely bogus - be it from a university or a rebuttal apologetic web site. But, again, we all know that.