A very lopsided post sean.

Its kinda of like a teacher (christians) telling its student (muslims) what you need to do

Except here the teacher has only his own interest and its own agenda in mind which in most instances is detriment to the students interest

Here is what muslims countries need to do.


- Turn attention to science and technology. There is still a lot to be discovered.

- Bring stronger justice systems to their countries both laws and ways of implementing

- Make efforts to remove corruption

- Make efforts to remove puppet regimes that only serve interests of foreign powers.

- Work together with other countries with similar ideals form unions such as European Union and NATO. Weak nations can form a formidable force if united.

- Identify good things west has to offer and stay away from the bad things eg Equality of persons opinion ie democracy, strong justice systems, nationalism and loyalty and stay away from bad things such as drugs, alcohol, glutonny and sex outside for marriage.

- Work towards betterment of economy and services.

- Make efforts to be equaly treated in todays world. eg a worker in a muslims country earns 10 times less than a worker in the west for the same type of work.

- Investing in the new generation. This cannot be emphasized enough.

- Making clear that terrorism is not what civilization and islam is all about. It has no place in modern society and contrary to what continous propaganda you hear in western media terrorism is a phenomenon which can be associated with any groups from christian fundamentalist to irish republic army and thats that, move on and focus on important things in life.

- Things can be rough but greatness can be achieved by hard work loyalty faith and dedication.

To be rich is glorious. Deng Xiaoping, 1904 - 1997

That comes to a famous hadith attributed to prophet Muhammad PBUH

The hand that gives is better than the hand that takes.

- Get away form habit of west worship. Realize west is not full of angels. People in every society can be both good and evil. West will always have its own interest in mind which is true with any society. West is full of incompetent and stupid people just like any country.

- Know your own history better. Realize what great things muslims have done in the recent past. Be proud and attempt to learn from mistakes and focus on improving oneself with the goal that as everyone improves themselves the result is that the whole society improves.

- A very serious problem which needs to be overcome is reconciliation between shia and sunni. There is absolutely no need to fight between these 2 groups.
Remember only Allah knows who is a better muslim.

- Make an effort to promote tourism and foreign investment. As there is more interaction between people of different backgrounds more misconceptions are cleared more harmony is established automatically.

- Remember the essential message of Islam that all man is created equal in the eye of God. Today Islam has spread to every country and every continent of this planet. There is no reason an Arab is any superior to an Eskimo. Some muslim countries have become the worlds most porsperous such as Saudi Arabia without having to do anything except having faith. Such are Gods plans for this world. Do Good, promote good and have faith.

- What comes up comes down what is down has only one direction to go. What history has shown us that greatest and mightiest of all empires eventually crumbled. Whereas great things were accomplished by the underdogs who would continue to reach new heights and they eventually too would fall. Thats the cycle of life and cycle of human civilization.

Just a couple of sentences I noticed and added comments to


fullywired

The Hindus at the time considered this to be an extremely barbaric act - sacrilege. Something on the order of drawing unflattering cartoons of The Prophet. Eat them if you like, but don't expect people to like you if you eat their god.

I think the cow thing ultimately goes back to ancient Egypt where cattle were considered sacred. The cow is a very nurturing and caring mother. The Egyptians, noting this, endowed some of their gods with this quality and represented those gods with a cow (Hathor was drawn as a young woman with cow ears.).

During the slave revolt of 1295 BC, the leader of the Semitic slaves, Osar-Seph, declared that the Egyptians' sacred animals were to be considered fit provender, to be slaughtered and eaten (This was probably, in part, a desperate act by people short of food and, in part, revenge against the Egyptians.). I think this is how the "chews the cud" exception got added to the list of dietary restrictions observed even today by many Near Eastern peoples.
Doug

1. It has to do with making competant and strong civil institutions which can monitor each other. For analogy something like the US system although its not perfect but you have different government bodies monitoring others. In such a situation its very difficult for someone lets say like saddam hussein to seize power.

2. See we do share some opinions.

3. Thats what my sentence meant.

Some societies I agree even today worship certain animals.

With cow I think it may also have to milk production and subsequent consumption by humans.

With respect to Islam items such as beef chicken lamb goat can be eaten but they have to be halal.

Also animals should not be abused or killed without any reason.

Plus automation and assembly line model of meat production is strongly discouraged.

Each animal should be fully fed prior to slaughter. Animal should be hand slaughtered plus a prayer should be recited during the slaughter.

A lot of western factories complain their profits suffer as a result of these extra steps but if you want to label a product halal these steps need to be taken.

There are serious issues because some unscrupulous business men were starting to label meat halal when actually it wasnt.

But stricter rules in some western societies are preventing this exploitation of muslism beliefs.

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. People judge others by what they do and themselves by what they think. I think that is what this is all about. We are judging each other by our actions and not by our thoughts. How do you know what the other person is thinking when you can't read his mind?

In your defense, there are likely as many badly-behaving Americans as there are badly-behaving Muslims.


I read a translation of an article from Aljazeera which said that 9/11 was an American job. That was several months before Aljazeera started publishing in English. They seem to have dropped the matter since then, but to publish it at all was irresponsible. I have heard that Americans have trouble informing people in the Near East what we are trying to do because the Arab-controlled press is anti-American. Now you're saying the opposite. Do you think Aljazeera is American-controlled?


You seem to have missed the point. Muslims are every bit as imperialistic as Christians or Americans. Imperialism is not an Islamic trait or an American trait. It is a HUMAN trait. We all do it; it's just that some are better at it than others. I recall that not-so-long-ago, Iraq invaded Kuwait. Arab imperialism is very much a modern phenomenon. Just to show that Hussein wasn't the only imperialist around, the US invaded Iraq.

I agree with you that it would be a much-better world if we could all respect each other and not seek to control what others are doing. Actually bringing that about is possible, but it will likely take centuries. But what other game is there?


That is the jist of the line. If I remember it correctly, it is from the Sunnah.


On earth, each person decides what to call himself. A person is a Christian/Muslim/etc. if he says he is. In the afterlife (if there is one), I am not qualified to say and I suspect, you're not, either.


Going to be a lot of folks floating around in the void, then.
Doug

If I understand correctly, Sean's list was written by anti-Shariah Muslims, not outsiders.

It seems to me that both lists contain many worthwhile ideas and should receive a hearing.

I might also note that during the Crusades, Christian princes in the Holy Land often fell victim to the Crusaders. The Crusades were not well-organized, well-run military campaigns. They were a way to get a lot of troublesome people out of Europe and if they were killed trying to take back the Holy Land, so much the better.
Doug

You are a smart person right

Lets see if you can solve this

let me give you some information from the website



CONTACT INFORMATION


Mail: Muslims Against Sharia, P.O. Box 241732, Omaha, NE 68124

Email: info AT reformislam.org

Death Threats: die AT reformislam.org


and this is from support page

Yes, I would like to help
Moderate Muslims fight Islamofascists!
Please find enclosed my check,
made payable to Muslims Against Sharia.
Name:
Address
City/State/Zip
Phone Number
E-mail (optional)
Amount Enclosed

Thank You!
Your name will appear on the contributor list below, unless you request to remain anonymous.
Contributors:
Khalim Massoud, USA
Ilshat Alsayef, Russia
Linda Ahmed, Sweden
Rashid Ahmed, Sweden
Grisha W., Israel
Sébastien Lebreton, France
Henrik de Nie, The Netherlands
Shem Tov Z., Israel
Ahmad Panjshir, Afghanistan
Maria Oostindien, The Netherlands
Daniel Ellsworth, USA
Martin J. & Diane S. Cipa, USA
Damian Barrow, UK
Frank Petruzzi, USA
Christian Roddier, USA
Cindy Schneider, The Netherlands


Do you really want me to explain further?

What kind of message these fakers are sending to real muslims what do you think?

Instead of trying to police others one should look at themselves to do something to make this world a better place.

Omaha, NE. Why not Teheran? Or Bagdad? Maybe it has something to do with safety.

Ever been to Omaha? I have. You can see all the scenery they've got from the top of the Interstate bridge. You can see trouble coming a long way off. I wonder how many of their members speak Arabic.

Every organization needs money. Are they hucksters? Or do they really have an idea?

Are they REAL Muslims? I don't know. What distinguishes REAL Muslims from FAKE Muslims?

Is it because they have an American address? There's an Islamic Society right here in town. They have a building about four blocks north of my office. Are they REAL Muslims? At the rate things are going, Muslims will soon outnumber Jews in the US. That should change the role of the US in Mideast politics. Are they REAL Muslims, or are they fake because they live here instead of somewhere else?

So, lets hear an opinion from a REAL Muslin: YOU. Which of the proposals on Sean's list DON'T you like? And why?
Doug

QUOTE (Doug1o29 @ Apr 21 2008, 06:43 PM)

I read a translation of an article from Aljazeera which said that 9/11 was an American job. That was several months before Aljazeera started publishing in English. They seem to have dropped the matter since then, but to publish it at all was irresponsible. I have heard that Americans have trouble informing people in the Near East what we are trying to do because the Arab-controlled press is anti-American. Now you're saying the opposite. Do you think Aljazeera is American-controlled?

Aljazeera is a lot more trustworthy than any other News channels. If something happens in the world, the first channel I go to is Aljazeera, and not BBC or CNN. This is simply because they are less biased and more honest. But this does not mean that they are an Arab news channel broadcasting the Arab point of view. These people are still being controlled by the US...

QUOTE (Doug1o29 @ Apr 21 2008, 06:43 PM)

That is the jist of the line. If I remember it correctly, it is from the Sunnah.

I have never heard of this before. But just imagine if I committed a serious crime. Would I still be called a Muslim? Yes I would. But would I still be a Muslim? No, I wouldn't. Do you really think that out of the 1.5 Billion Muslims not a single one has committed a serious crime? You know that that is nonsense. Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) would never say such a thing. I know many people who call themselves Muslims but simply do not practice their religion (I don't want to gossip). What about them?

An Arab point-of-view, or your point-of-view? Might be nice to hear both, though. We have the same problem here.


I think you just summed up that passage very well.

Now, how can I tell whether a person is a Muslim or not?

How can I tell who is a REAL Muslim and who is a FAKE one? I haven't figured that out for Christianity, yet. Doesn't look like I'll ever get it done for Muslims.
Doug

QUOTE (Doug1o29 @ Apr 21 2008, 09:24 PM)

An Arab point-of-view, or your point-of-view? Might be nice to hear both, though. We have the same problem here.

Aljazeera is just like the rest of the News channels, but it is less biased. It will look at both (or more) sides of the story and keep it honest. CNN and Fox News are 'Pentagon Channels' because they (almost) only show us things from the US point of view. Am I right?

QUOTE (Doug1o29 @ Apr 21 2008, 09:24 PM)

Now, how can I tell whether a person is a Muslim or not? How can I tell who is a REAL Muslim and who is a FAKE one? I haven't figured that out for Christianity, yet. Doesn't look like I'll ever get it done for Muslims.

This is hard for me to answer. A 'good' Muslim is a practicing Muslim. The other type of Muslim is someone who is Muslim by name only. There are no 'fake' Muslims or Christians etc. What do you mean with fake? Non-Practicing? There are many believers who don't follow their religion strictly, but still claim they are believers.

These short but very powerful stories are highly recommended to everyone:

A Great Conversation:

A man came to Iyas Ibn Mu'awiyah, a Muslim judge famous for his wisdom, and the following conversation took place between them:

Man: What is the Islamic ruling regarding wine?
Judge: It is Haram (Forbidden).

Man: How about water?
Judge: It is Halal (Permissible).

Man: How about dates and grapes?
Judge: They are Halal.

Man: Why is it that all these ingredients are Halal, but when you combine them (wine), they become Haram?
The judge looked at the man and said: If I hit you with a handful of dirt, do you think it would hurt you?

Man: It would not.

Judge: How about if I hit you with this handful of straw?
Man: It would not hurt me.

Judge: How about a handful of water?
Man: It surely would not hurt me.

Judge: How about if I mix them, and let them dry to become a brick, and then hit you with it, would it hurt you?
Man: It would hurt me and might even kill me!

Judge: The same reasoning applies to what you asked me!

Did you get a bill from Allah?

A man reached 70 years of age and was affected by a disease which made him unable to urinate. The doctors told him that he needs an operation to cure the disease. He agreed to do the operation as the problem was giving him severe pain for days. When the operation was completed the doctor gave him a bill which covered all the costs. After looking at the bill, the man started crying. Upon seeing this, the doctor said "If the cost is too high then we could make some other arrangements for you." The old man replied, "I am not crying because of the money but I am crying because Allah let me urinate for 70 years and He never sent me a bill!"

Subhanallah! We rarely thank Allah for these things which are indeed great favors. Let us ask Allah to grant us the ability to recognize His bounties and thank Him often.

Noble Qur'an 14:34. And He gave you of all that you asked for, and if you count the blessings of Allah, never will you be able to count them…

Thank you for your reply Ozi, however, I found the following remarks to be objectionable:











Temper Ozi, temper! How about " فقولا له قولا لينا Faqoola lahu qawlan layyinan"? People will be less alienated by a softer, less strident tone. I have no more 'harped' about Darfur, than you went on about America, colonialism etc.. in every post (which, by the way, backs up what was mentioned in Tibi's quotation about revivalism & social change). Frankly I feel that any further discussion will be an exercise in futility as you have either utterly failed to see the crux of my argument, or simply didn't like it. Let's say that I got a tad tired of regurgitating the same arguments, over & over so I will stop participating in this thread. I do not believe you are interested in hearing what others have to say as much as in telling them what you believe they should hear.

Nevertheless, before going, some last comments:
-You are against terrorism ,as you have repeatedly informed us, yet the constant casting of the western culture as a pit of vice can lead to the dehumanization its people in the eyes of impressionable "disillusioned" youth; that, coupled with a world view which sees the "other" only as real or potential enemies bent on exploiting or destroying Islam, can give rise to an unhealthy environment & even a 'ghetto' mentality. In such an atmosphere, even violence might then be excused by some ( but not you I know).

-

I do not know on what basis are you betting that I do not know ( should you be betting?), nor where did I write "watered down quran"! I was talking about re-interpretation of traditions to fit life in a changing world in order to avoid future problems. I even gave you an example the fatwa which was given ( & withdrawn after an uproar) about women breast feeding colleagues, or now another example raised by some sheikhs in parts of the ME, treatment with urine of a camel (Sahih Bukhari, Book 71:Volume 7, Number 590). The past golden age must give relevant answers to problems people face now, not 1000 years ago.

As for the Hadith I quoted, here is the text & its translation for the other readers. The english text is a variant which mentions the question being posed only once instead of 3 as in the arabic text . Neither mentioned repentance.

حدثنا موسى بن اسماعيل حدثنا بن ميمون حدثنا واصل الأحدب عن المعرور بن سويد عن أبي ذر رضى الله عنه ، قال : قال رسول الله (ص) : "أتاني آت من ربي فأخبرني – أو قال بشرني – أنه من قال من أمتى لا أشرك بالله شيئاً دخل
الجنة ، قلت و إن زنى و إن سرق ؟ قال و إن زني و إن سرق ، قلت و إن زنى و إن سرق ، قال و إن زني و إن سرق ، قلت و إن زني و إن سرق ، قال و إن زنى و إن سرق رغم أنف أبي ذر / الحديث 1237

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...hsunnah/bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 579:

Narrated Abu Dharr:

The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. I asked (Gabriel), 'Even if he committed theft, and even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse?' He said, '(Yes), even if he committed theft, and even if he Committed illegal sexual intercourse."

_ Concerning conspiracy theories about 9/11 & 7/7, etc, or even aids being made in a lab (in another reply) such allegations require proof , so far you have given none. Please give the reference to the '200 declassified documents ' which prove these claims. You are assuming several massive conspiracies involving hundreds of people, from the fire fighters, to the police to the judiciary & the media! All of these people would have to be ethically & morally compromised to cover up the real culprits while accusing & sentencing innocent people( who managed to leave confessions on video). Credibility is a huge issue here, so for every 'extraordinary' claim you must provide a solid proof.

-

Qat is a plant indigenous to east africa & the arabian peninsula & was used there since antiquity, the influence of the west had nothing to do with it. Some drugs, such as hasheesh were also known in the east ( the Assassins 1090-1272) . My point about Taliban was whether they as muslims founding an 'islamic' state should engage in the trade of 'musker'. Northern alliance' activity is also reprehensible but beside the point in this discussion.

- The polarity of the world view you propose is unrealistic, even simplistic. All humans are capable of good & bad ;people are responsible for the choices they make ;& no society can ,by following a theology, turn into a utopia - due to human nature. Even during early Islam, Ali & Uthman were killed, so were even members of the Prophets family, there were wars & battles among factions etc. One can only strive to be & do good.

I have repeated myself ad nauseam, so now I leave.

Good luck

T

Why dont you replace the word muslim with the word christian and also replace the word quran with the bible and give it to your practicing christian friend to read then ask him how he feels.

Every organization needs money

So do con artists

Bewarned

Fox News is regarded around here as a right-wing propaganda channel. Their coverage is one-sided and out-of-balance. It DOESN'T represent the US point-of-view; it's only the opinion of some ultra-conservatives. I don't trust it. And you can tell your friends that an American said that.

CNN is a little better, but still not as good as it could be. Most people are getting their news off the internet.


I was using the term "fake" in regard to Mainpoint's posts above.

Christians often point to some other Christian whose actions or beliefs they don't like and say he/she's not a REAL Christian (Presumably, meaning they're a fake.). Now I see Muslims doing the same thing. How can I tell who is the REAL Muslim or Christian and who isn't? The only way I can see is to average everything together: a person's a Muslim or a Christian if they SAY they are; otherwise, I have no way to tell. The error distributions can tell us what is normal behavior for Group X and what isn't.

Social researchers tell me there's no detectable difference between religious denominations and non-religious groups when it comes to ethical and moral behavior. So religion isn't making a contribution to society, either positive or negative. I don't know if the surveys included Muslims.

Thanks for hanging in there. I know my comments can be abrasive sometimes. Believe it or not, I'm actually learning from you.
Doug

sorry Doug i didnt clarify my self earlier. sometimes people pretend to be who they are not this is just one of many realities of life that was the point i was raising

I wanted to know which of the items on Sean's list you disagreed with. Am I to take it that you disagree with all of them? They sound reasonable to me.

I agree that Christianity needs the same revisions. Both are warlike and need to come into the 21st century for their own sakes, as well as for the rest of us.


I have a question: I heard that the verse about those who die for the faith receiving 72 virgins in heaven, is actually a mistranslation, that the line should read "72 white grapes." Is this true?
Doug

What's lopsided about it? This is a Muslim organization believing strongly that there needs to be radical change. That said, you claim that it is wrong for the teacher to tell the student anything out of fear of self-interest--an agenda. So what do you do? Turn right around and state what "Muslim countries need to do!" Are you not doing exactly what you claim MAS is doing! Yes! I mean no offense, but that seems rather hypocritical to me MP.

Out of curiosity MP ... Are you a firm believer in Sharia law? Was this not so with the Taliban--strict enforcement of Sharia law?

Kindly,

Sean

ditto

Absolutely Doug! Fox News he is a total farce! And you can tell your friends that two Americans said that!

Most kindly,

Sean

Af, please step back and listen to what you are saying. You are repeating AJ's mantra--"The US is controlling everything, wants to dominate the muslim world etc. They are crusaders. Very paranoid mindset. It is rather frightening that is so pervasive amongst the muslim community. Relax ... we only want your women! Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck!

MK,

Sean

Great post Sean.







Uh, make that three Americans.

Lets look at the current world situation

I can see the only country where sharia law is close to being implemented is Saudi Arabia. Dont you think people affiliated with MAS atleast some of them should be living in Saudia Arabia? Its rather odd isnt it that the only country that has sharia law and the members of the organization live half way across the globe from each other and that the members have no ties to that country.

And I can tell you from self experience ( I have lived in Saudi Arabia)

It is one of the happiest safest and stress free societies!!!!!!

And if you dont believe me you can hear it from the saudis.

What sharia law is a code of laws

Code of laws have developed with the developed of civilized societies

You live in the US right

Does awarding 100s of years of imprisonment make any sense to you.

I like US law and I like sharia law

A criminal should be punished depending on degree of crime committed.

If the crime is heinous the punishment will be severe.

The end result of any code of laws is that the whole society becomes a peaceful, organized and happy society to live in. I can clearly see thats what happening in Saudi Arabia. You probably dont have any intention of visiting saudi arabia in future why does it pain you that you are interested in their laws being changed? Are you really concerned about the well being of their society? Dont you think you should focus on improving your own society first?

Lets look at what dangers the American Society is facing with regards to Law and Order.

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exe...ew.cgi/64/22835

There are a lot of evils threatening american society

- Increasing Nepotism

- Increasing interest Group politics

- Widening wealth gap

- Promotion of deterioration of civil liberties

- Increasing control of media by government

- Demonizing certain ethnic or religious group whereas promotion of worhsip of others

- Ignoring failings of leaders

- Spending ever increasing time at work whereas not enough time for family or others.

- Turning a blind eye to violence eg countless civilians have died in recent past due to military and man made conflicts yet media fails to focus on them kinda of like "well as long as its not happenin to me"

The list is long

Many things you can focus your energy on to make this world a better place to live in Sean.

QUOTE (seanph @ Apr 22 2008, 03:18 PM)

Af, please step back and listen to what you are saying. You are repeating AJ's mantra--"The US is controlling everything, wants to dominate the muslim world etc. They are crusaders. Very paranoid mindset. It is rather frightening that is so pervasive amongst the muslim community. Relax ... we only want your women! Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck!

Is it just me or are you hard to understand? What are you talking about? From what I can see, there are some crazy comments in there... Please explain your point clearly.

QUOTE (Inner Space @ Apr 22 2008, 03:25 PM)

Uh, make that three Americans.

See? I told you it was one-sided. But which side is that? There are only 2 sides in world affairs (Middle East). One is US & Israel, the other is the Arab World. Have you noticed that when an Israeli gets injured by rockets fired from Gaza, quite a lot of news channels and websites report it? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJfE0MtQeGI). But when an entire family of Palestinians is killed, they get the same kind of attention from channels such as CNN and Fox News (http://www.alalam.ir/english/en-NewsPage.asp?newsid=039030120080422075017). This is what I mean with one-sided. They want to make clear that we Muslims are the 'bad guys' and it is working rather well.

You guys underestimate the power of the media

Some americans actually consider foxnews as the news network to watch and believe





They are getting their ratings from somewhere!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! OMG that's hilarious!!!!!!! And so true!! Good find, MP!!

There are many of us who remain vigilant.



LOL...

If you had spent much time in the south then you would know that the picture posted to mock southerners would be white southern Democrats, not Republicans.

I think you would have figured that out by now with the legions of church dresses and 1950s mens' haircuts that followed the Huckster around in this year's primary.

They say for something to be funny it has to have a grain of truth to it...
Good find mainpoint, it was definitely worth a good chuckle

Except there is no grain of truth in it.
People who live off disability checks in the south always vote Democrat.
Not so different from north or in any nation that gives out checks I suppose.
They always back the liberals.

They don't look disabled to me

However just to clarify I deeply respect people of southern US. This picture is not meant to offend anyone and does not reflect the south. Some southern people I know are some of the most well mannered Americans I have come across.

Another fact I like to clarify is that

Southern US is the poorest part of the US!

Southern US is overwhelmingly republican!

If my statements are wrong you can correct them.

thanks

Could it be that their disability is........- Lazyitius (symptoms = too lazy to get a job) ??? well a lot of people have that disability and it's sickening!!sponge off the goverment

The amount of people over here that claim disability benifits from the goverment make me sick..when there is nothing wrong with them..just too lazy and bone idol to get a job

YET--> I know a number of people who are in fact disabled and like to work for a living..they have get up and go in them regardless ...(a lot are too proud to be lazy) fair play to them!!

After my car accident (several years back) I was in a wheel chair and it put the fear of God in me...I fought it and after a couple of years I was able to walk and run again...hard work did it and determination..but not all are as lucky...I thank God I am NOT disabled..my point is, I wouldnt claim disability allowence from the goverment when there isnt anything wrong with me

When you think about those who are really disabled, would give anything to go out and work...but cant...it angers you when people FAKE it...

I found this at-http://ko.offroadpakistan.com/religion/2004_08/quran_may_promise_grapes_not_virgins.html

"It has long been a staple of Islam that Muslim martyrs will go to paradise and marry 72 black-eyed virgins. But a growing body of rigorous scholarship on the Quran points to a less sensual paradise — and, more important, may offer a step away from fundamentalism and toward a reawakening of the Islamic world.

…The Quran is beautifully written, but often obscure. One reason is that the Arabic language was born as a written language with the Quran, and there’s growing evidence that many of the words were Syriac or Aramaic.

For example, the Quran says martyrs going to heaven will get “hur,” and the word was taken by early commentators to mean “virgins,” hence those 72 consorts. But in Aramaic, hur meant “white” and was commonly used to mean “white grapes.”

Some martyrs arriving in paradise may regard a bunch of grapes as a letdown. But the scholar who pioneered this pathbreaking research, using the pseudonym Christoph Luxenberg for security reasons, noted in an e-mail interview that grapes made more sense in context because the Quran compares them to crystal and pearls, and because contemporary accounts have paradise abounding with fruit, especially white grapes."

Also a good friend of mine who's a Muslim once said to me " You know what concerns me the most about matrydom and my 72 virgins it doesn't actually clarrify whether the virgins are male or female!"

I don't mean to take this thread off topic, but what kind of injury did you suffer Becky? I am so glad you were able to make a full recovery. I, unfortunately, wasn't so lucky. Just the way the ball bounces I suppose.



Amen! Nothing makes me more angry then this! People who do so, should be put in prison - for they are doing nothing other than stealing! There are so many severely disabled people that truly need assistance - - this I know from personal experience. You wouldn't believe how many people I know who can't afford the medical products etc. they so desperately need. Life for them is a daily struggle for the most basic of needs. Just makes me sick!

Kindly,

Sean

American law is designed (theoretically) to keep the government from using its power to convict an innocent person. That doesn't work as well in fact as it does in theory, but that's the idea. Governments (all governments) have huge resources compared to the individual and if it weren't for laws protecting the individual, could use them to convict anybody, regardless of the facts of the case. Example: in England in the 18th century, prosecutors simply kept filing new charges until the defendent was bankrupt and couldn't fight them any more; then, it simply convicted the defendent and imprisoned them. The "criminal" was often innocent of any actual crime, but was convicted only because the prosecutor didn't like him. That's the reason for America's Double-Jeopardy laws. They're the reason OJ Simpson is a free man. Protecting Double-Jeopardy is far more important than OJ Simpson.

Punishing the criminal is fine, but the sentence has to be a just one (Lopping off a hand for stealing is hardly justice.) and the person has to be guilty in fact and not just convicted (A problem all legal systems have.). Sharia law may produce a peaceful-looking society, but it does it by convicting innocent people by denying them the opportunity to present an adequate defense. America is slowly drifting in the same direction, but has not gone that far, yet.

There is a purpose to those hundred-year sentences. They are not just single sentences for single crimes, but are multiple sentences for multiple crimes. If a sentence is over-turned on appeal, the prisoner is still held on the remaining charges. To get out of jail, he has to overturn all of them. When sentences are set to run concurrently, the prisoner, in effect, serves the longest one. If that one is overturned, then he must serve the second-longest one, etc.

There is a very good reason for all the checks, balances and appeals: once the process is complete, one can be fairly confidant that the accused is really and truly guilty and will have to serve the sentence.

The defense never rests.
Doug

Wow! I guess that menas that the biblical Hur (Moses' brother-in-law, Merriam's husband) was actually called "White." BTW: I got that detail about Merriam's husband's name from the Quran. The Quran often supplements the Bible.

Now the problem: I believe the story of Moses and the Exodus to be a legend, based loosely on history. There was no one specific person who served the function of Moses. The story takes details from several people's lives and combines them into one story. If the Quran is assuming that Moses was real, then ....

Thanks.
Doug

I think I used to know those guys! I now live in Oklahoma which is quasi-south (At least, the eastern end of it is.); I used to live in Kentucky, which is quasi-south, a lot like Oklahoma. Note that there are no pine trees in the background. This picture was taken in Kentucky or Tennessee where forests often lack pines.

There are a lot of folks who look and dress like these two. Most of them make a living by small-sclae farming, working odd jobs, or working as temps at the local sawmill or manufacturing business. Most are not on welfare and are too proud to accept it, even when they're legimately qualified.

People who own their own farm are not qualified for welfare. They would have to sell the farm first in order to get cash payments. Those who are in financial trouble, but still hanging onto the family farm, can often get help like commodities and food stamps. The problem with commodities is that this month, you may get 30 pounds of powdered milk and two five-pound bricks of cheese. Next month it will be something different. It's hard to piece these all together into meals for a family, but at least, there's plenty of whatever they have this month. Food stamps are good for some things and not others: no beer on food stamps - no soap, either.

The south, especially the rural south, is the poorest part of America. The trend has been exagerated in recent years by good roads which allow farmers to buy a house in town while farming land out in the country. They commute to work, just like any city dweller. That means, only those who can't afford the house in town still live in the country (There are exceptions, of course.). That also makes the rural areas appear poorer than they really are.

We also have a problem with people moving to the city and just abandoning the land. We have more frontier counties (those with less than six people per square mile) now than we had 100 years ago. That means decay and decline for rural areas and rural businesses.

Most states, including the south, are not overhwelmingly of either party. The margins are usually only two or three percent. The US' winner-take-all electoral system gives all the electoral votes to whichever party gets the bare majority, so a landslide in the electoral college may reflect only 52% of votes cast. 55% of votes cast is a landslide. Those bare margins are fairly stable so that the same party wins year-after-year. Oklahoma is kind of strange: we usually return a Democrat as governor and go Republican on everything else. Go figure.

Doug

Dude,

I have a lot of respect for you and your approach. But now your just spamming. The offer i made is this. I dont mind the spamming, i dont the sites you use and the material. They dont scare me, because they are all answerable. therefore the above post you keep repeating, all I ask is that, you use that, but bring their argument forward one thing at a time, so we can deal with it and move on. the above is mainly produced on material by Arthur Jeffrey, and if we deal with one point at a time, i will show you how ignores the sources material for some things and uses it for others.

Just asking you to present your point one at a time, and then we can deal with it. You have this misconception that somebody of that faith cannnot be objective in how he studies it. This is absurd and the quran infact teaches us to look at it objectively and question it. Therefore you cannot compare it with other books, no other religious book tells its followers, hey, test me, investigate me objectively, and thoroughly so you can confirm to yourselves that it is the truth. I dont buy your argument, that as a muslim i cannot be objective. I could easily say that as a non muslim, you have no reason to be objective, neither statement is fair.

Ozi



Thanks mate, I had a good soccer game, we won and comfortably. Mate i read everything you posted, academic, non academic etc. I even showed you that the academic links posted dont dispute the textual integrity of the quran, and those that present anything in connection with it, also present the islamic experts and their argument, unlike yourself, who assumes anyone muslim is an apologetic and incapable of being an academic or using that approach.

Ozi



Yeah i posted those links, but you have not read any of them, so you cannot say if their apologetic or not. Most of the point made on that site, take in to consideration, the academic views and those academic views that are contrary to them. I have not been repeating myself like you mate, although i did not complain at what you were doing, because i knew the point you were making, fair enough. Those academic site which were dismissed early days on the basis, that i thought you posted them to make another point, not to show me the objectiveness that the academic used in studying the quran, which is a new approach, because in the past the orientalists admit they were bias. However did i not apologise for that mistake and misudnerstanding, i think i did. You see im not too proud or big headed, or have a huge ego that i cannot accept mistakes on my behalf. Then after reviewing the academic links, i and established that they dont dispute the textual integrity, now you are using the AI to show argument against the textual integrity of the quran, and not single author on that site is an academic. You claim that you are repeating what i do with IA, yet you have not even looked at the latter in detail.

Ozi





What is meant by AF is that, God blew a soul in to adam, he dint blow himself in to him as a soul. When he says he blew his soul in to him, he mean he belw adams soul in to his body, which god fashioned with is hands. in islam we are not in gods image, there is nothing like him, equal to him, nothing born of him, neither was he born of anything. I dont think neither of us misinterpreting, just an easy mistake made on your behalf and AF when making his point.



What you need to remeber about arabic, is one word can have several meaning or to describe something, they can have several words for it. For example in their hayday, even before islam, they would boast about the arabic language and its poetic beauty. For example, how many words do you have for sword, and you might say 12, they will say ha, we have 100. You know what i mean. Now the word Yaum, can me today, a day, a 24 hr day, period of time, a day of days etc. Several meanings, and one has to remember the context the word appears in. Now in the quran when allah refers to a phenemona or informs us of a duration of time it would take for something, if its measured by our 24 hr days he says it, for example a day of reckoning. Meaning a day like we know. but in reference to the earth and universe, it clearly does not define it as our days, and the context the word Yaum appears in, is refering to a period of time, which could be anything, after all god has power over everything, so it could be eons or less, but period of long time nevertheless.



The quran in the opening the chapter Surah Fatiah, says Alhamdulillah hey rabilalameen. meaning the lord of the worlds, this one small verse on its own indicates Allah is the creator of many worlds, some we know of like djinns and angels, some we will never know of, some we will know of when we die and go to heaven and see things we never though existed or imagined existed etc. The quran also is specific in saying that, Humans are Allahs most superior free willed creation, more superior to angels, we have huge potential spiritually and in the physical realm.



These laws inthe quran, are present in the torah, the bible, the vedas, and other scriptures, constantly repeated. They are applicable today as they were then. As muslim we can eat everything, besides, pig and predators. Any animal we eat must be butchered in a kosher manner, like the jews do. So there are only a few things we cannot eat, just like most people dont. Pig, is always been haram, due its nature as animal, and the diseases it carries. We dont question it more than that?

Vegetarian animals are not meat eaters by nature, but if they are being fed meat by farmers etc, this is unknown to you as a muslim and you eat them in good faith, thinking they are being reared appropriatley and correctly then your not at fault. In reality those animals should not be eating meat, firstly they immune system and digestive systems are not made for meat. But in know some farmers did it and still do it. They are wrong, but as long as the animal is butchered in a kosher way its permissable.

Yeh some products like lollies have halal written on them you will be suprised how many products have stuff like animal rennet in them or gelatine etc. Which comes directly from animals, and those animals have not been butchered in a kosher way then, those products become haram.

As for intoxitcants, coffee does not intoxicate one in the same as alcohol. I understand your point in moderation it is okay, but its this notion of moderation which is abused, due to alcohol hvaing qualities which are addictive, and then there are people who have addictive minds. Alcohol is a bigger killer in the west than most things, your actually in more danger being killed by a drunk driver, than a terrorist attack, but i bet you most of you fear the latter more, as your goverments are taking your liberties slowly by putting fear in your minds, imagine if the same propaganda was done on alcohol you could change the mind set of people, as alcohol causes some of the biggest problem in society today, yet we ignore this fact on the basis of pleasure and enjoyment and dont see how its destroying society, especially in the UK, with kids, teenagers, women (drinking more than ever before), binge drinking etc. So islam knocks these things on the head, not giving it a chance in moderation, because the latter leads to worse scenarios. The christian mainly drink alcohol, because the bible recommend it in moderation and those who practise the religion the most and best are priests etc, yet so many are drunkards. MY country england is full of drunkards, people who dont even know they are.



I agree, islam is logical, rational and compassionate to the masses, it does not serve the individuals as our system do today. Islam see's true freedom in a different light, not the freedom to do bad things, but the freedom to do good and normal things. Like true security, is to be able to leave your property un attended knowing no one will damage it,or steal etc. To be able to walk from one place to another with out fear, etc.

The laws in islam, sound harsh, yet when we look at what we have today, they sound nice on paper, but practically they dont serve us, prison numbers increasing, crime still on the rise, Islamic law, is largely deterrant, people are less likley to commit crimes, knowing the severe penalties, and why not have them, at the end of the day, its the crimnal who is taking our liberties, freedom, property, lifes, etc, so why should they have the better deal, and not the victime. I hope you look in to islam for yourself, as i did, dont take our words on face value, go and check them out, verfiy them, take it to experts, all this is advise given by the quran itself.



I cant remember what your first sentence was in connection with sorry.

God is all knowing and transexuals are a natural, but a state one does not wish to be in, at least i think most people would agree. These are tests for their parents, for the person itself etc, and in most cases, the transexual will choose either to be a female or male, when the latter, he can marry as a male, but if he leads his life as a female, then its difficult for them to be married and its not recommended for another man to marry transexual, they are a rarity. But if a transexual chose to live a male life, because they can choose which life they will adopt, they have a chance to lead a life of a man, like a man, and have all the function biologically of a man, he can marry a women. Even this is rare, however, i am not 100% certain onthis, therefore i need to look further in to it. In islam those, who are transexuals, lead female or male lifes, but cant get married or have families etc, they are state responsibility, and the state looks after them and caters for them as much as it can. They should be accepted as female or male, but unfortunately in most societies including muslim ones, they are ridiculed, or used as dancers, entertainers or sexual purposes etc.

I must say Hajime your questions have been great. I hope my answers help.

Ozi

Morning MP.



It is more then SA and includes Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, Sudan, parts of northern Nigeria et al. In fact, according to Britain's, the Telegraph, a large percentage of British muslims want Sharia law implemented:

Four out of 10 British Muslims want sharia law introduced into parts of the country, a survey reveals today.... Islamic law is used in large parts of the Middle East, including Iran and Saudi Arabia, and is enforced by religious police. Special courts can hand down harsh punishments which can include stoning and amputation...

SOURCE: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...9/nsharia19.xml

No, I do not believe one should have to live in that particular country in order to be concerned. That's like saying I shouldn't be concerned with starvation because I do not live in Somolia et al. We are a global community and are our concerns for each others well-being should have no borders.

That said, the muslim population is growing and, as the Telegraph et al have reported, so has their influence--an influence that is spreading way beyond the ME. And I am just as concerned about Christianity's influence, MP, both here and around the world.



Stress free? SA is a welfare state that relies, as you know, on oil revenue to support the population. Unfortunately, prices on products rise--sometimes very quickly. This has made providing for the population quite difficult at times. Of course, the recent oil boom has certainly aided a great deal to comfort of the Saudi people. But this is not going to last--which concerns the Saudi government. With the world-wide call to go green, to free ourselves from relying on oil and stop global warming, living stress free will be challenging to say the least.

Free? SA is well-known for their human rights abuses. Numerous HR organizations have taken them to task for violations of basic rights concerning women, homosexuals, freedom of speech etc.

Human rights in Saudi Arabia

Political freedoms

Freedom of speech and the press are restricted to forbid criticism of the government or endorsement of "un-Islamic" values. Trade unions and political organizations are banned. Public demonstrations are forbidden. The Saudi Government is an active censor of Internet reception within it's borders.[25] Recently the internet has become a tool for dissent, however the arrest of prominent Saudi blogger and reformist Fouad al-Farhan has been seen as somewhat of a crackdown on online dissent. Fouad al-Farhan has been jailed in solitary confinement since December, 2007, without charges, after criticizing Saudi religious, business and media figures.

Political parties are banned, but some political dissidents were freed in the 1990s on the condition that they disband their political organizations. Only the Green Party of Saudi Arabia remains, although it is an illegal organization. The 1990s marked a slow period of political liberalization in the kingdom as the government created a written constitution, and the advisory Consultative Council, the latter being an appointed delegation of Saudi scholars and professionals that are allowed to advise the king.

Religious freedoms

Main article: Status of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia forbids missionary work by any religion other than Wahabi/Salafi Islam. Saudi religious police recently detained Shiite pilgrims participating in the Hajj, allegedly calling them "infidels in Mecca".

Jewish, Christian or Hindu houses of prayer are not allowed. Unofficially the government acknowledges that many of the foreign workers are Christian and on Aramco civilian compounds, foreign Christians are generally allowed to worship in private homes or even hold services at local schools provided that it is not spoken of in public. This is a degree of unofficial tolerance that is not given to Judaism, Hinduism or atheism.

Officially, the government can search the home of anyone and arrest or deport foreign workers for owning religious icons and symbols, e.g. a Bible, or rosary. Yet, this generally does not occur on the Aramco compounds and the most common policy for foreign Christians is one without public acknowledgement. The government t