I'm writing this as a fair few of you on this site don't seem to be up to speed with Science's rules on time travel. No patronising involved, it's just that the last forum started out with this Sherlock guy stating that "No, he didn't believe time travel was possible. There are no government conspiracies or time machines" (There are ABSOLUTELY government conspiracies. 9/11 is one I am sure. However time machines I don't doubt are not). It appears that for most people "Is time travel possible" is a similar question to "Do you believe in ghosts?" in as much as we assume it is a grey area up for some debate. I am here to tell you that most people are wrong.

Einstein

Albert Einstein ascertained, as part of his work on relativity that space and time are inexorably linked. In essence time IS the 4th dimension of space. To identify an object one must be aware of its height, width, depth and the place in time which it occupies. Einstein actually at one point attempted to debunk his own theory because it would mean places in the universe where gravity was so concentrated it would actually warp the fabric of space-time and therefore enable measureable time-travel. Einstein could not accept the existence of these areas and instead tried to deviate from the problem by creating something modern science finds even moe bizarre called "The Cosmological Constant." Anyway, to cut a long story short many years later the British Physicist Stephen Hawking identified these areas Einstein dreaded. We call them black holes. More on them briefly, but first things first.
Einstein was the first to speculate that time moved at a slower rate when on board a moving object, proportional to how fast that object was travelling. This basically means, bizarre as it sounds, if you are on board a supersonic jet then time is moving slower for you than everyone else. Not your interpretation of time, but TIME itself. This theory has been since proven by synchronising two atomic clocks and storing one on board an aircraft. The measurements involved were astoundingly accurate in favour of Einstein's predictions (something like the clock on the plane being around 4 seconds behind the one on the ground in a round the world trip). Any skeptics amongst you should look this one up becuase it proves time travel is possible even if just in theory.

Any celestial body makes an imprint in space/time. It basically warps the fabric of reality and this warping is what we call gravity. Objects don't fall to Earth but rather fall to the dent Earth has made in the spacetime continuum. This brings me nicely onto the next bit.......

Black Holes

When a star reaches the end of it's lifespan, several things may happen dependent on fuel, size, mass and energy. It may explode into a supernova. It may also shrivel into a neutron star. However, when a star is so heavy that running out of fuel means it can no longer sustain it's own weight, it collapses to an unimaginably dense point known as a singularity. It is a singularity which is at the heart of a black hole and also what science believes was the original state of the universe.
Now, large objects warp spacetime as discussed, but the effect is dissapated due to the large area covered. When an object heavier than a hundred suns collapses into a point smaller than a golf ball i'm sure you'll realise, it causes major problems. The gravity involved is so great that it goes far beyond merely warping spacetime. A black hole leaves no dent in spacetime at all. A black hole rips a hole straight through the middle.
The aforementioned singularities are strange things indeed. If you can try to imagine time as a stright line. Personally, I don't think it is but there you go. Anyway what a singularity does is twist time to the point whereby it can't escape itself and rather than a straight line you are left with a spiral. If you tried to enter a black hole you'd be stretched like spaghetti but despite that, modern scientists all seem to concur that theoretically if you got through you'd travel to a random point in time.

Question Time

Ok. Now that's all been sorted out, I've got a PROPER forum debate as opposed to the utter b******s i've been reading lately. Hope you all forgive me but today I was in a forum where this guy was trying to tell people the evil, dead ghost of John Wayne was trying to drink his blood. I'm serious. What the HELL was that guy smoking? I want a 50 bag. Anyway..............

Most modern scientists believe the universe is finite. It has an end somewhere and we think this because we know it's expanding. In fact professor Stephen Hawking pioneered the "no boundary" theory in which the universe is very much like our own Earth. You can move around it but you can't go wandering off the edge. In other words we could never get "outside" the universe.
Modern Science also firmly believes space is curved. This is for multiple reasons, including measuring light from eclipses (light travels in straight lines but if the light is bent it indicates the space surrounding it is curved). Because Einstein made a massive success in proving space and time are part of the same thing, we must therfore assume TIME is curved. If you've guessed where this is going pat your smart ass on the back.....................

If time is even SLIGHTLY curved it would mean it would eventually come back around on itself. If this was the case, if time was a LOOP and not a line it would mean that IT WAS UNCHANGEABLE. Loops cannot be broken and furthermore it would indicate the "present" was all just a question of which part of the loop you were seeing. Are we arrogant enough to believe we have free will? Does your great grandson believe this time can be altered? No. Because he is in a different part of the loop. Is it possible that first we thought the Earth was flat, then it was the centre of the universe, then the sun orbited it and we STILL are to this day continuing our arrogance by presuming WE are in the "present." Let me ask you, of all the trillions of moments in time, why is THIS ONE the "present?"
It is a daunting thought that you may have no influence whatsoever. I'd encourage anyone who wants to comment (with the exception of people who want to argue without having even an elementary grasp of physics). I'll leave you with this folks:-

Some of you may be familiar with the suppositon that "If a man stands atop a high enough hill and looks through a powerful enough telescope, he will eventually see the back of his own head." I forget who I'm quoting but it basically means that the universe is curved. If that's true and also if Einstein is to be trusted, we must assume that time is indeed curved also. Were that the case the man would NOT see the back of his own head.

What the man would see is HIMSELF looking for it. Think about it.

wow thats pretty cool

can u add me on msn b cuase i really dont like forums i find them annoying

i have my own ideas and am not an idiot lol



* Snip * -- anyone else is also welcome to add me

arn't you making some basic false suppositions ::

just because you are 'sure' 9/11 is a conspiracy does not make it so...

u describe simple time dilation and seem to think this proves the possibility of time travel, but in fact experiencing the time dilation effect is no more travelling in time than getting caught in the rain is swimming.....

whilst a black hole singularity is a point, a rotating black hole singularity would be a doughhnut shaped ring, not a spiral...

just because space can be curved, does not mean it all is all the time.....

yes, space and time are parts of the same thing, but so is length and breadth, and if I bend a ruler the length is curved, but the width is not. dimensions can be affected differently by the same circumstances, so just because space is curved, it does not neccessarily mean time is...

if space is expanding as you say it is, then a curve in time would not necessarily have the (forgive the pun) 'space' to achieve a complete loop...

this moment in time is the present coz its the one that is happening now... now its this one... now its this one etc. it's a matter of perception, not decision.

the saying about looking through the telescope and seeing the back of ur own head is just a saying about concentrating on what ur doing, whatever that may be. its not supposed to be taken literally !!!!
Min xx

ps sorry, but u do come across as patronizing

Interesting question. Space, however, according to the WMAP readings, appears to be flat, hence Time is not looped.

Showgirl, you go girl! Spot on


I'd just like to point out though, from your source Tiggs, ...

"The data are consistent with a flat geometry, with Ω = 1.02 +/- 0.02."

...that the data are also consistent with a large closed geometry.

Cheers

I sure hope this thread continues. I always love reading what Tiggs and ai guardian have to say.

I'm a physics fan. I'm not on the field playing, but in the stands watching...and believing I can call plays as well as the coaches.

See, I have just enough knowledge of the subject that I can understand what is being said (I changed my major a few times...), but not a complete holistic view, so I am unable to formulate new ideas on my own. Hence, I need threads like this to get my fix.

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."

Einstein was wrong about certain things, just the same that Tesla was wrong about certain things.
Never 100% believe in something written down on paper. Remember that the prime motivator of what is assumed as "truth", is money.

Time travel is possible, however what we will learn from it will be quite different than expected.

Also to briefly address AI Guardian and perhaps Tiggs.................

I appreciate the fact you've done a bit of research guys.

You are quite right that WMAP concludes space to be flat. Allow me to elaborate slightly.

WMAP is referring to the universe being essentially flat on a COSMIC scale. This concerns the rate of expansion being measured against the gravity pulling it back in. What WMAP did was prove these forces nearly balanced each other out and therefore the universe is roughly at the critcal density necessary to stretch it flat.
On a LOCAL scale, spacetime is curved. By "local" what we essentially mean is any distance less than the universe itself. Our perception of the universe is clearly that it isn't flat and this would only change if we were on the outside looking in. Hawkings "no boundary" theory, if correct, would render this impossible anyway, so as not to make it an issue.

The WMAP findings shouldn't really complicate things for future pioneers of time travel because it would only involve LOCAL manipulation of spacetime, which is curved.
Additionally Tiggs, the revelation that space is essentially flat on a cosmic scale does not mean time isn't curved. Time can curve around a 2D object just as easily as a 3D object. Think about it.

Please don't take too much from the WMAP findings though because in reality, "flat" is all a question of relativity. A piece of paper appears flat to you or I, but to an atom present in the paper it is nothing of the sort.
The main problem in advancing as a race isn't in collecting data. it's reading the data accurately.

Ok, now that I've had a bit more time to analyse what's been said in this thread I have realised that yes quantumhead you are quite correct with regards to GR. But you already know that. For some reason I was thinking in terms of length contraction instead of spacetime curvature when Showgirl responded. My bad.

From memory, I seem to recall that there are solutions to Einstein's EFE that do render time travel possible however these require phenomenal amounts of energy or exotic matter. So, theoretically at least, a time loop is possible if my memory serves me right.

With regards to Einstein's cosmological constant, ie. his apparent (but not quite) "biggest blunder" by introducing it into his equations, I am curious because I haven't come accross this particular reason before (read & understood his theories a number of times, biography, commentary about his theories etc), was it really "entire reason Einstein doubted his own theory was becasue time dilation theoretically proved the possibility of time travel." ? Do you have a source I can add to my collection? I thought he 'doubted' his theory (or at least was not happy with his addition of a cosmological constant) because the constant kept the universe from collapsing - kept it static - but Hubble found that the universe wasn't static but expanding.

That's interesting. Now I'm jealous Anyway, if you don't mind me asking, when was that and what do you do now?

With regards to the Hawking "no boundary" theory. Is it a closed geometry theory? Got a linky/source, again so that I can add to my library and check out his thoughts exactly. Thanks.

And with regards to your last post, I agree, for what it's worth.

Cheers

In mathematics there is such a beast as a hyperbolic paraboloid. This is most definitely curved yet does not 'come back upon itself'. Such assumptions as the one you have made above are unscientific, if I might be so ignorant as to suggest so, perhaps indicating I am not up to speed and simply spreading b******t without the most basic grasp of physics or mathematics.

Wow, you really have some anger issues to deal with here, or are they issues with gender ? I counted 13 insults in that outburst !! Something thats got you reported.

By the way, i wasn't challenging Einstein, Hawking or standard 20th century physics. I was challenging your interpretation of the results of those people and studies. If you bothered to read my post objectivley, you would have seen that, but were obviously more interested in insults than reading. I stand by what I said in my first post, but you're still not going to listen, are you ?

Min

Quantuamhead your unprovoked, unwarranted and unnecessary attack upon Showgirl is completly and utterly unacceptable. You have quite clearly broken a number of UM rules, which forbid personal attacks, offensive language and flame-baiting. Please take the time to read through the UM rules before posting again.

Science doesn't believe the Universe is Infinite anymore that is in the past they can see the beginning of it 14billion yrs ago to be exact and they can see how it will end. The Universe rebuilds itself every 1 trillion yrs it destroys itself off and rebirth takes place. About time travel it is possible in several ways one is using a black hole because it bends time and space. Another is Anti Gravity Magnetic Fields which would destroy matter and make it teleport which Burkely college has already experimented with and it worked. The pyramids of the past were used for that exact purpose. Don't get me wrong they did it using the mind at 1st and then meditation also understanding gravity and how to defy the Law Of Nature

hello hi -

umm i was wondering why u snipped my hotmail address out-
whats the worst thing thats gonna happen, (a little kid adds me and gives me abuse for to secs untill i block him?)
i really really reallly hate forums i just cant stand them i joined this board to make friends and have decent conversation, now if i went around messaging people personally there is alot of chance that i wouldnt get any where, iv just put it up so if people want it they can have it.

im going to put it up again but if it breaks any rules then im sorry just snip it again but i hope u see my point-

* Snipped. Again. *

my science teacher at collage says that my ideas on the universe are very strange and unheard of

BUT SEEM TO TIE IN WITH OTHER THEORYS OR SUPPORT THEM

(excues the spelling its not my strong point lol)

The Worst thing that could happen? Let me see- A hacker uses Google to find a random MSN account, contacts you, Reverse engineers your IP address, Hacks your computer, downloads Terrorist information and then calls Homeland Security. That's probably the worst thing that could happen, I'd imagine. Generally, however, they're usually only interested in installing Viruses on your harddrive, so they can control your machine whenever they want, to engineer massive Denial of Service attacks.

As I said - the best way to send your MSN address is via a PM / put it in your Member's profile, where it's at least not indexed by Google. I hope you see my point.

Tiggs
[Forum Mod Team]

Errr surely this means that the Planet is curved and not neccessarily the Universe.....i mean it may well be (who knows) but this anecdote doesn't prove it is

Thats time dilation, yes... but its no more "time travel" than living your life right now. Yes, you're "moving" in time, but thats not the same sense as people mean with "time travel".



That is one interpretation merely, not fact.

im not sure what to say because i doubt you can travel back in time because you'll screw up the future and you can only look back in time not actualy go there from what i know, but i do think you can travel to the future by freezing your self but you wont be-able to go back to your previous time period

that's the crux of loads of other threads on here and other forums... whether u'd affect the present or the future if u went into the past !!
What makes u think u could only look back at the past ? I never considered that !!

Min xx

Time is like a river

Sounds like your talking about some kind of multiverse and I think that we might be living in one, the superposition of particles makes so much sense if we do, it explains why the particle are not in a wave-form when you observe it, think about it.

If multiverse is true then parhaps we will one day be able to create some kind of wormhole to travel through the higher dimensions back in time. Thats the only way I can think of to travel back in time and we dont know if wormholes or multiverse exists. Anyways, if you would travel back in time to when you were young and kill your young self, then that event would take place in another timeloop because you didnt get killed when you were young now did you? Creating a paradox is impossible. And if you would travel back in time to the same timeloop you came from when you were born and just observe, then that timeloop would not evolve into the same future you came from because of the fluctuation of chance.

I agree scientificly that we have no free will, but it would be something possible if we had a soul but im not so sure about that one

i really absolutely DONT think there is a multiverse thing going on. ok yea i know all about the string theory and quantum physics sh** and the double slit experiment and my guys have told me all about the stuff they discuss. u should hear the stuff the guys talk about at the dive.some scary sh**.
just about everyone i hear talk and all those i talk to think there is just one universe. time travel cant be done because there is no way, absolutely no way that u can organise or control co-ordinates to travel to specific points in time and space and even expect a planet to be there let alone get the air in the place u are materializing in to get out of the way !!!

it makes for great story telling, and makes great forum thread material, but time travel just aint gonna happen..

Min ***

That's what I've been telling people all along. If you WERE able to take, for example, a DeLorean , and be able to move through time with it. If the universe is ever moving, to include the planet on which we live, by my theory you would have to 'pop out' at a point in time where the world is in the exact position it was in when you left your original time.

Now I don't know exactly how much the earth shifts within it's point in space, so lets just say it actually moved in the exact point in space in a circle around the sun in a year. (This also assumes that the sun does not move in space). Then you would only be able to travel to that exact date and time, just in a different year. Because if you had tried to pop out 6 months from your original time, the earth would be on the oppposite side of the sun from where you are.

Now, I'm no physics major or anything like that, but knowing what I do about the shifting of the earth, the sun, and our galaxy.... You MIGHT be able to pop out every 2000 years or so, since our galaxy circles another point in the universe.

Of course, that's assuming you want to pop out at a different point in time on Earth.


Just my thoughts.

-C

Very poetic !!!

If you are trying to say that both space and time can bend, then just say it! Don't feed us this stuff unless you can actually show us how it's done. I will accept no less, put your ideas in layman's terms so the less informed may understand your ideas. I know that when you bend a piece of, let's say, plastic, that the width at the bend point DOES expand, albeit at the loss of thicknes of the material at the bend point. Therefore it's mass remains the same no matter where you take the measurements from.

Edits due to rectified typo's.

its not been clearly shown because its so difficult to get ur head around a four dimensional object !!!

first of all, try not to get too hooked up with the word 'bent' or 'curved' and think more in terms of 'warped out of shape'

i used a ruler in my example coz its fairly easy to picture in ur head... but maybe a better example would be a moebius strip. thats a flat piece of paper warped in two dimensions... three if u consider the thickness of the paper... now try to extrapolate that up to four dimensions and u get the result.
its been mathematically proven with Pythagorean, Euclidian geometry and Einsteins own particular brand of maths that its true. alter one of the four dimensions and u alter the relationship of it to all the others, and that includes the time dimension.
Einstein showed that all four dimensions are interconnected creating his 'spacetime'. so if u introduce another force to spacetime... say gravity, then u affect the 'shape' of the four-dimensional construct and hey presto, spacetime is warped.
hope thats better.

Love Min xx

Time is fluid ... like a river with currents, eddies, backwash.
... Spock, "The City on the Edge of Forever," stardate 3134.0.

Google "Bose Einstein Condensate" +time travel or teleportation

and you will find some interesting developments: http://discovermagazine.com/2008/mar/telep...t:int=2&-C=

Could it be?
As we move "forward" (normal range) to tomorrow, a far away equal exist that is moving backwards?

I haven't kept up with Grand Unification Theories and Theory of Everything (ToE) or even quantum thermodynamics; and I am not entirely convinced that space is flat. (Personally, I still believe that it is curved.)

So, if it is curved, that "far away equal" could be the thing that is moving forward "?"

P.S. I read my post again and it seems a little cryptic. What I mean is, if it were possible to see that far out, we might see ourselves moving backwards (as we move forwards)...

But Escher and Dali can draw it better than I can say it.

Still, right now everything is still an assumption.

Amen to that .

There is no possible way to travel in time in the sense of moving from one metric to another instaneously for any massive body. It cannot happen. Relativistic methods could achieve a sort of time travel but it's still only based on the original intertial frames and has limits and would only seem to move forward. There's no way to get around the paradox conundrum. There is no way to move an intial state backward in time and there never will be. Not in this universe. There have been experiments that seem to break causal links at first but such isn't the actual case. Information was always retained and there is no way around that. Even simple simple physics wouldn't work if there were.