You're welcome D.



But look...

We're not really discussing oil, or the idea that it is a "greed seed".

I understand that your opinions regarding things like oil, and environmental management, and population control are being equated with my statement that we haven't actually passed the Mars 101 class yet.

I understand the association and accept it. However, be advised that the "problems" that recent politically motivated concerns attach to the things you mention are manageable, and have simple solutions....but they're a topic for another thread altogether.


My position is that we shouldn't mess with any other world...not because we can't mange our own (I think we can, logically and efficiently), but because we simnply have no moral right to play god with anyplace else....until we understand not only anyplace else (and in the case of Mars, we most certainly don't...that's why we're there, doing what we are doing), but our own world as well(which, as has been rather obvious to me...we don't either!).

I understand your passion for the responsible care taking of our world, and others as well (some day). In order for us to terraform, or responsibly live on a world with alien life (where WE would be the aliens), mankind will need the very technologies, and wisdom, needed to live on our world while keeping it a living world.

News Flash! We can Terraform Earth like we already have been for hundreds of years. We better start doing something about it Now.I would like to know my kid`s kids, kids, kids,will have a clean and safe world to take care of. Im teaching my son to be responcible towards the eco-system. Its up to all of us.Great post Mid.

humans can always send chavs as test subjects on mars to check if it is fully habitalble after it has been terraformed, it should get rid of the chav problem in britain.

Was that a ten foot poll reply dr alien? wahts a chav`s if i seem vauge.

chavs are the centre of anti social behaviour, they're all around britain misbehaving and showing off and they're not that intelligent. the topics on this website will make the most intelligent chav realldy dumb. if we can send them on mars, earth will be a safer, quieter place to live in, although chav is a british thing as far as i know, if you were in america you'll need to get rid of "gangsta's" and "mafia's".

Not a bad idea, Doc!



We could have an international mission, with Chavs and Mafioso and Gangstas all participating...in a one way flight to , well, where-ever...just out there.
That would work! No need for excessive planning or considerations about life-support...just stuff 'em in a rocket and push the GO button....

Actually arch,

I'm concerned, as any scientifically literate person should be, with real, correctable, and meaningful environmental concerns pertaining to the Earth.
As pertains to other worlds, I don't think too much about that. Terraforming is a theoretical possibility, but I'm not too concerned about it, since any possible use of it is centuries away. I'm more concerned with understanding the nature of a planet like Mars, and exploring it, as it is, and not much with colonizing or making it habitable for humans.

You're right though...if we ever do pursue terraforming on Mars, we ought to be able to take care of ourselves here on Earth.

That late? Damn, there goes my Star Wars fantasy. Of ever leaving this planet to live on another...

the people from star trek will do for now.

My question is why would the US fund something like this when we owe over 9trillion dollars to china are national debt is way high to do stuff right now.

PRINT MORE MONEY!

yeah why cant they do that more?
the world's financial crisis would be much better if more money was printed, or its probably that i dont know enough about this stuff

We have all been con-ed way too long in this country when the other countrys get in a twist they complain and stop the trains ,planes ,busses ,ect We need to become a proactive people in this country and stop the B.S. we are being handed. Its the squeaky wheel that gets the oil ,Time to become Squeaky People get out and change the greed and crap were getting from our elected officals. vote soma new life into our life`s Please. off the soap box for a while.

Does work like that the more money we print the less its worth and with are national debt are money isnt worth much anyways thats why were going through inflation and more than likely soon a receccesion.

Thats what they want you to belive .Just Print it and they will come,the little grey guys might even enjoy watching us deal with this problem. Maybe thats whats driveing the depression Our lack of Beleif in or selfs. Im for printing and not looking back on the wrongs we have made. The positive thing to do is Grow and Let E.T. be.

We shouldn't even be planning a trip to Mars until we have a propulsion system that can get us there in days vs months. I find it hard to believe that we don't have it now. In fact, I believe we are all being treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed a lot of BS.

best regards,
seax

seax:
I'm wondering if you've actually thought out the idea of getting what will probably be a very massive spacecraft assembly (think 100,000 pounds or more of mass) to Mars in "days". "Days" implies accelerating that mass to several hundred thousand miles per hour average speed.

Suppose we made it 5 days. We'd have to average almost 300,000 MPH to do that at Mars' closest approach to Earth. Then, we'd have to decelerate all that mass so as to enter Mars' orbit, and when we were finished and needed to come home, we'd have to accelerate again...and then find a way to decelerate so as not to become a quickly charred cinder entering Earth's atmosphere at somewhere around 80 miles per second.

Fuel, fuel, and more fuel..which means more mass, which means, bigger. In fact, such a vehicle would be so immense (99% fuel and tankage) as to be ridiculous. And of course, the bigger, the more money spent on it, etc...

Economy is part of the design process. This is why we didn't just make an immense booster and blast off straight to the Moon. We made a smaller booster, and used just enough energy to cast us out of Earth's gravitation, letting Issac Newton do the rest of the work.

Perhaps you're implying that we should wait until sometime far in the future, when we may develop exotic drive systems that don't require massive amounts of fuel to produce the large impulses required for such a quick journey?

I would have to question why? Why wait? We have the ability now to develop such a mission with the technologies we possess, and of course, with those we will refine and develop in the next decade or so.





This comment smells of a CT in waiting...

B.S. about what?

seax: Mid is right we have not the ability to build a ship yet of this speed and mass.Some here thinks its being hidden from the joe public,but I think not at this time if we did someone would of already snuck it out and done a few laps of our little rock? Hum that brings up an Idea about early reports of ufo`s? Funny thing man and his secerets.But we are not ready to ply the bounds of inter-stellar space at this point .But its a good idea the more power the better .Wheres those dilithieum crystals when you need them? Keep thinking its just around the corner.

Hello MID,

You are thinking inside the box, you have to think outside the box. All these things you just mentioned are problems, but problems to current propulsion systems. This country spends a lot of black money for projects, and they are not just to make current systems better, they are to create new ones. There is no doubt in my mind, we see these propulsion systems flying all the time, and some people call them UFO's. They are kept quite because a lot of money and work went into them. You don't want someone else to get it for free, and you don't want your opponents to know what you have.

I am going to give you a link, read it, it is an example of a technology I feel is a working system. A retiree from Groom Lake made the comment just a few years ago, the craft could go to the moon and back before lunch, if they left at 6:00 am and back at noon thats about 80 X10 3rd mph or 1333 mps
with a reduction in mass of 89%, some of the hardships you talked about would be nill.

http://www.mufonla.com/tr3b.htm

New technology MID---nothing stays the same
makes complete sense.

best regards,
seax

Have a great time with that one seax I bet Mid is like me I`ll see it when I belive it.600ft in size Is it silver by chance?

I don't know what color it is but I am sure it will fly just as good in silver as it will in black. If you look at some daytime shots of UFO's taken hovering and enlarge them which was done on a documentarty on the History Channel the triangular shape shows up perfectly. It looks like the drawing on the site of the TR3B. I know--it sounds out there--but so did the SR71 and the F17. Let's not discount some of the great minds under employ of our government and private enterprise. After all, you are living in a time when time travel is said to be very possible by leading scientist. Why not new propulsion systems.

best regards,
seax

No doubt on the great minds working for the gov`s around the world. And as for TR3b and OBoneKonobe its a duck shoot on what goes on out in the desert`s I think there just might be a triangular shaped ship being flown out of groom,lots of chatter on the UFO`s sites and nuts that camp out there.You ever want a great experiance go to Burning Man once and report back on the nite sky.I`ll be waiting for the reply.

I didn't understand what you are saying-- you mean go to a site called "Burning Man"? Sorry , claify it and I will go to the site.

thanks,
seax

I think we have the technology to pull this off already. Remember when we lost the U-2 in Japan or China...they were interested in the software (that was destroyed), but the US gov. said didnt matter if Japs got the info or not, we were 20 yrs ahead of the US is flying now. Our Gov lies, so maybe at 30 yrs ahead in technology. So its a progression. If we were to show we had the tech. then that tech would be open for other countries to explore. The US needs to keep certain secrets so in a crunch (war) we can use it...one day we will be shocked when we bomb someone from space, and it will be "oh I didnt know we could do that.."...trust me, there is a reason we are sending Mars rovers like crazy up there...

Hello reverb2000,

the U2 was shot down over Russia. But, yes our government have projects we know nothing about. That is why I think we need to wait to go to Mars when the technology can take us there faster and safer. Perhaps this is why we have not been back to the moon--officially.

best regards,
seax

Why does it have to be faster and safer? Did any of the great explorers of the past sit there and think to themselves..."nahhh i think i'll wait to cross that ocean or that land until its safer and i can do it faster". NO, they did it as soon as they could to face and challenge that arises and achieve something totally awesome. We have had the technology to send humans to mars for the past two decades now but the funding and international cooperation has not existed to a point where we could achieve the mission goal.

At the current rate NASA is operating at (barring any new substantial technology upgrades) an ESA, RUSSIA, CHINA joint mission will make it to mars well before the americans.

I understand your enthusiasm, but you are comparing apples with oranges.

Let's look at Columbus. He had 3 ships, if one sank that left 2, if 2 sank that left 1. They didn't have to carry oxygen. If they ran out of food, they could find an island and get supplies if nothing but fish. If all the ships sank there is the possiblity of drifting to an island.

Lets look at space, you have 5 or 6 people in a tiny capsule. You must carry your oxygen. If somebody gets sick and dies they have to be disposed of. If something happens to the ship, you are
SOL because, there ain't gonna be another one and no rescue mission. When you get to Mars, something happens there you are on your own--and they ain't no berries or KFC there. People can't get along in an office environment for a week, how about closed quarters for Months?

Forgetting about the safety of humans look at the cost in money if it fails, because of time and safety.
Billions of dollars.

There are better ways to go there in due time. I say let's do it right. I would like to see what is there too.

best regards,
seax

No, no, no. Thinking outside the box is precisely how we accomplished a lunar mission, and how we will accomplish a Mars mission. Of course new technology is at the forefront of what we're doing, just as it was in the past.

However, you are indeed delving into realms of speculation here that are irrelevant to the actual situation at hand pertaining to Mars.



Black projects...of course. Black projects are black for a reason, to the extent that they actually exist. A Mars mission will not be a black project. It'll be completely white.

You link me to MUFON. That's not something in the realm that I wish to entertain. An interesting description of a major technological acchievement which is based upon speculative physics rergarding a craft which has no substantial evidence of it's existence, and of course there are those references to Edgar Fouche, who believes alot, but who has no credentials which support his beliefs, nor any proof that he ever worked at "Area 51".

NASA and the Air Force have of course, and still do engage in far reaching research, some in the realm of speculative physics. Dr. Robert Forward, who gets mention in the link you provided, was one of those visionaries who was involved in that type of research, and who in fact patented many of the pretty far out things we have today...however, associating him with MUFON and the TR-3B...which is nothing more than a fictional craft (by any reasonable definition), is a little over the top.

You may feel that the TR-3B employs a working system, and you may think we see such things flying all the time, and you're entitled to that, but it's speculative stuff which has no substantiation pertaining to its actual existence at this time.

Further, even IF it does exist, we're talking decades of reseach and development in order to produce a viable craft, which would undoubtedly be utilized for defensive and reconnaisance purposes prior to being fabricated for use in manned exploratory adventures. Such a thing would remain secret for the entire time.

Again...IF it exists, and of course, other than belief, there's nothing to substantiate that.


Even so, why wait?

We have not been back to the Moon for reasons which have been clearly delineated ad nauseam many times in the past right here on UM. It had nothing to do with black projects, or advanced tecnologies we were waiting on. It had to do with short-sighted leadership and a relatively typical American ability to become jaded to the extraordinary--as well as a profound propensity to engage in the ludicrous idea that there are more pressing problems we should be dealing with on the Earth rather than spending the money on space exploration...money which was, and still is a pittance compared with what the government spends on entitlements, let alone all the other government programs and institutions in existence.

For that matter, the space exploration budget has always been a pittance compared to what Americans spend on cosmetics, cigarrettes and beer in any given year. Our priorities are screwed...and in large part always have been.

Whatever: you may note that we will be finally, going back to the Moon, within the next dozen years or so--provided of course that we don't elect another short sighted government into office.

Here are several reasons why.

I will not argue the point the TR3B may not be a working craft, but I also wouldn't argue it or some other propulsion system is not in a hangar somewhere getting the bugs out of it. A lot of people, report seeing a lot of things that are out of the norm. If they are real and they are not ET, then they are something that belongs to us. I just find it hard to believe everyone is still refining a rocket engine, when physics gives us so many other choices. Remember, a few years ago, stealth was impossible to some people.

best regards,
seax

What do you mean, "at the current rate that NASA is operating?"

NASA is, as it was in the past, the crown jewel of space effort and effectiveness.


Their performance in the past 5 years has been spectacular.

Do you actually think that China will be partnering with anyone, and has the capability to do such a thing, at all? They've just orbited their first man in space, and they are not inclined to partner, at this point with anyone. No one has any manned experience outside of LEO save Americans. The ESA is highly capable, as is Russia, and Japan, and Canada for that matter.

I envision a cooperative effort on a Mars mission, but with China?

Don't look for that. Without America, I don't think you'll be seeing any Mars missions happen. No one has the booster capability, or the experience required to even attempt it.

One must learn to crawl before one can walk. Only America has crawled to date.

Hey MID,

I agree with you on priorities of money, a lot is wasted in bottomless pit social programs and pet projects that could be spend much wiser on programs like we are talking about.

But, even so, a lot of scientist realize the danger and prospects of failure on such a mission. Just look at the unmanned missions that have failed. The explorer spirit is still alive and well, but I say lets use some common sense, and take a "calculated" risk. The smart thing to do would be to have a joint mission the europeans and russians and let them pay their share of the cost and risk. I have reservations about the chinese.

Mars is not going anywhere, lets develope "faster and safer" so we can succeed, believe me, it can be done. That explorer spirt you are talking about can conquer all these problems.

best regards,
seax

You know seax, I agree with you.
Believe me, the complexities of a Mars manned mission are exceedingly huge.. And, while any space mission involves risk, it is managed risk, and it will be in the future when we go to Mars. There are many unknowns to investigate and plan for, technologies to be developed, human systems, etc...this is not Apollo. It is something completely different.

I have always been of the opinion (well, in the past copuple decades anyway) that co-operation between our partners as they exist right now (Russia, Japan, Europe, and Canada) is the best way to go. Given what's been done on the ISS in the past couple of years is clearly illustrative of the fact that we are not greater individually than we are as a whole.

Personally, I think that the U.S. lunar effort in the next couple of decades, combined with continued ISS research and participation, will yield what we need to know in order to plan, and execute a Mars mission, jointly, in the decades to follow.


What's going to be done on orbit on the ISS in the years to follow will be undoubtedly astounding. Add that to the U.S.'s lunar landings and development there, and the formula is present for Mars.

I think that joint effort will serve not only the success of the endeavor, but will be beneficial to the planet as a whole.

best regards,
seax

Ditto!

Hey MID.

Makes me feel good when great minds agree with me!
appreciate your post.

keep your fingers crossed, good things will happen in due time.

best regards,
seax

You are far too kind!

I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Hey,

we're on the same page! This is what it's about, livin and learnin.

take care
seax

If we could get just half of the earths population to agree on space eveloution and exploration,we would have no problems leaveing Earth and on to the stars.Its we have not yet learned to be at peace with one another yet.But its going to happen! Sooner would be better.Thats like Mid said we all need to get out there and vote for a strong government with far reaching goals,and dreams. Why we dont just start printing a whole new batch of money and Put NASA back in the Black!

Maybe if we could just get half the earth's population to pony up the necessary funds. As an American tax-payer who believes whole-heartedly in the space program, I guess I don't understand why space exploration depends upon the other half of the world's population.

To be perfectly honest, Incorrigible, I don't think half the world's population actually knows about space exploration or would be inclined to care. I also don't think we need half the world in order to operate in space; just some realism among those countries who engage in the activity, and their people....specifically, America.

I honest loathe the financial arguments regarding the space program. Mostly because they're way off base and come from a skewed position regarding priorities and fiscal realities.

I mention that NASA's budget is, and always has been a pittance of the Federal budget. People hear something like 6 billion dollars for fiscal 2008 for space exploration programs and they're aghast (I think that's probably a high figure, actually).

It's going to cost a hundred billion dollars over the next 12 years to fund our manned lunar program. "Oh my God, we can't afford that!"

But the fact is, "Yes, we can, easily."

That amounts to less than $30.00 per year per American...less than 8 cents a day!
Know how much Apollo 11 cost an American citizen in 1969?

About $1.80.
That's it. One whale of a good ticket price for the actual Greatest Show on Earth...or, in space, as it were!
The entire Apollo program cost Americans 3 cents a day for the decade it took to accomplish it...in it's entirety.

Know what Americans spent on "Black Friday", 2007...the traditional start of the Christmas shopping season?

$16,400,000,000.00

One day...the entire NASA budget for a year...on Christmas! $55.00 per capita...in one day! 82% more, in one day, than it will require to fund Constellation for a YEAR!


It's difficult to argue space exploration costs when such things as that happen all the time in America.




D:

NASA does operate in the black. What they do with the little money they get is absoluetly astounding!

I hear you MId and still want more out of the American people and the other countries that are already contributing to the efforts in space exploration. Your numbers shameful to our American pride ,we should all step up to the plate and vote and write letters to our Senators,ect public officials,even a prayer or two. Just look at NASA history its like you have said Unriveled in the World! We are still the Greatest Country on this Rock Lets Get back to the bussiness of Leadeing. P.S. If you dont get a copy of when we left Earth I`ll send you mine asap .

Thanks, D, but I'm sure I'll get one!