Yes men have different anatomy than women, your point being? Straight people do the very same things that gay people do in the privacy of their bedroom, so again what is your point? Do straight people have sex only to procreate? Is that what you are saying?
Two consenting adults having sex is NOT and will never be the same as beastiality or having sex with building supplies. Religion (christianity in particular) also says that wearing cotton and linen, and eating shellfish are wrong too, so all those christians that wear mixed fabric and eat shrimp are according to you hypocrites? (Not hippocrates, that is an ancient greek).

Yes, the people that I associate with find sex avery fun game to do with their latest relationship. At first, I protested highly against it, but as time passed by, I really didn't care. I wasn't going to hover over them whenever they sexed up someone. And yes, in my middle school years, it was a race to had sex first, to engage in some type of sexual activity. I really don't think it died down since I meet (or see) freshmen crowding the hallways talking about their year's new sex scandal.

But since you brought a tid-bit of it, I think that it's really hard to believe people nowadays when they say they fall in love with [insert said person here] and end up having sex. It's just overall a difficult thing to picture, since [insert gender/person here] would probably hit it once whichever partner puts out first and then leaves.

Why? Do they refute the living word of God? Did God reassess his list of abominations at some point? At what point did the never-changing Almighty wake up one day and think "y'know - I might have been a bit hasty with the Fins and Scales thing. After all, I did make the Lobster incredibly tasty. I'd better jot down a quick note for the faithful"? Were there memo's issued? Were there prisoner's waiting to be stoned for their late-night "one a day, but I can handle it" Lobster habit that had their sentence commuted at the last minute to just 50 shekels and a couple of fatted calf sacrifices? Did the Lord demand ritual Lobster sacrifices with a small side portion of scampi from that point forth?


Yes. Yes it does. Both of those examples I posted contain the explicit quote "And the Lord said to Moses". Given that Moses is attributed with authoring Leviticus - are you saying that Moses lied?


Then we'll have to agree to disagree.


Why would I think that? Because I've read the line in context, in many different translations of the Bible.

New Life Version

22 "If men fight with each other and hit a woman who is going to have a child so that she loses her baby but no other hurt comes to her, he must pay whatever the woman's husband says he must, as agreed upon by the judges.
23 But if there is other hurt also, then it is life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, cut for cut, sore for sore.

Pointing out that the Bible is inconsistent isn't exactly news.

I suggest you take this startling revelation to your nearest Rabbi. According to their Kashrut, they are forbidden from eating shellfish.

Sex before marriage isn't always wrong so long as it is safe. I personally feel that promiscuity is wrong as it shows a general disregard for the emotional commitment involved in sex. When two people enter into a sexual relationship it should be a loving, safe, responsible and faithful one. When two people decide to have a child, it requires absolute commitment to the bitter end to stay with each other and to love and nurture that child. If everyone followed this code of ethics, so many problems would be solved. No broken families, less sexually transmitted disease, no betrayal, more positive and productive generations, no unwanted children, no abortions, all the while still fulfilling humans natural need for sexuality.

Just an observation; if one can be "sent to Hell" for premaritial sex, then I suspect Hell is pretty darn crowded right about now.

Which part would make them hypocrites? The part where they don't get to choose that they are homosexual? Or the part where they can't choose whether they believe in Christianity or not. I mean, that's really not a choice is it, to believe in something. They might adhere to every single other commandment, they may be the most generous, Jesus-like person aside from the fact that they go against the biblical sexual grain.





I think the sentiments are well intended, but this whole paragraph doesn't sit well in my mind. First off, I don't think that whether you judge it against former lovers has any relevance, because the flip side is WONDERING if your current partner is doing as well as they could be. Also, learning together what you like/dislike doesn't change with multiple partners, it's new every time. You can still get STDs, especially the scariest ones (AIDS, Hepatitis C, and you can contract Herpes with oral 'relations') Fantasies of a previous lover? I would think that if you have that problem, it is an issue within the relationship itself and has nothing to do with the idea of having sex before you are married. The experiences aren't any more intimate, actually. If everyone reading these can remember their 'first time' it was probably awkward and uncomfortable. I would rather be comfortable and relaxed with someone, knowing I don't have to spend the rest of my life with this person whether I enjoy the sex or not.

I also am a little offended at the remark about previous relationships. I am not ashamed of any of mine, and I have a daughter from a previous relationship. I wouldn't change the fact that I had sex with someone and created a baby before I was married for anything.

The harassing phone calls, blackmail, stalking, etc also does require premarital sex. Or any sex, for that matter.

Neither of those are forced. Sexual orientation and religion are free choices in most countries. If one claims they believe something, but they do the opposite of it, that is a hippocrate. Like many Christians support war, even though Jesus taught peace and forgiveness and love. That's being hippocratical.

I think someone who is very Jesus-like, but gay is cool with me. I just don't think that a homosexual should claim to believe homosexuality is wrong.

It's also interesting to note that, with the exception of Jesus' quoting of the OT, in regards to divorce "a man shall leave hos father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh", He never mentions homosexuality once.

You don't choose your sexual oritentation or your beliefs. Sexuality is something out of your control and you believe what you believe. You can't force yourself to believe something. Jesus taught love and peace yes, but this is in regards to individuals, not nations.

In a way he does.
Matthew 5:17 - Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
The law condemned homosexuality. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Therefore Jesus condemns homosexuality.

Mhmm.

Also people do not realize how much society has changed. Up until a hundred years ago most people lived in the country and not in cities. In sociological terms a city is a place where people do not grow their own food. The population shift and transition into cities is due in part to the land owning class taking more and more land and creating mega farms for profits while at the same time new industries were being developed which changed the economy and the way people earn a living. Instead of growing our own food or even growing for a noble on alloted plots we are now dependent on non-agricultural industries to make a living. This of course means that society and by extension governments, have to make schooling compulsory so that workers can be trained in the numbers they want for the varying sectors, from service industry, to blue and white collar. In turn the concept of teenage years was developed so that people could not rush to get married and start a family until they were trained for the workforce.

The problem with this is that instead of marrying when the body is ready to have children it is postponed but the body itself is willing and ready to engage in sex. Instead of raising our children to transition into adulthood with all the responsibility that that entails we postpone it. This dilemma is the reason why premarital sex is such an issue and it is more or less unique to the modern age.

There is also a plethora of other problems that have developed from this issue that appear seemingly unrelated. The cycle that began with imperialism at the advent of the industrial age meant that competition for land was not just for living space so that one group could gain more land to live off it, it became more for colonialism just to strip resources. This created first, second, and third world nations.

Now because of the developing globalist era of free trade, the industries that were relied upon so people could make a decent living have been imported to third world nations, increasing their standard of living, so that all that is left in the first world for a large sector is the service industry which does not pay well thus decreasing their standard of living. To add onto it much of the service industry is allotted to recent immigrants thus further destroying first world nations. All of this serves to create large groups of unemployed adult males which usually leads to many social ills running the gamut from them being unable to raise a family all the way to terrorism. If in doubt research the correlation between unemployment and terrorism within populations.

Another layer which I did not even touch was the rise of the duel income family thus further eroding the family unit now that television raises more children then attentive parents including at least one stay at home parent. We can also ask ourselves who benefits from all these social-economic transitions?

Yep. . .Me and my friends sure are going to be there. I hope Hell has keg parties. . .

So, obviously, I don't think premarital sex is bad. Be safe and considerate and keep the one night stands to a minimum. I never really understood exactly where in the timeline of humanity that sex became such a taboo in the first place. . . It sort of seems like we went from one end of the spectrum to the other rather quickly. . .

It is said every organisms prime function, something encoded deep within, is to keep the species going so that it will not end. AKA propagation. In humans it is the nuclear family that is the basis of this and any threat to this is considered a threat to the species. Sex outside of marriage does not lend to this but society has changed so much the model now seems antiquated. Part of that model is that children became adults rapidly with no intervening period of adolescence, a modern conception, but since it is no longer that way does not mean those young adults within do not have the natural yearning they have always had for millennia.

It is also understandable that older adults also have premarital sex but people getting married later and later is also a recent phenomena.

God wasn't married to Mary when he knocked her up...just saying.

'Do as I say and not as I do' right?

An old friend once said "There is a difference between making love and getting laid". Sex doesn't need to be a big magical meaningful ritual of a process.I don't want to get married, nor plan on being in love ever again. But I do plan on having sex. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Can anyone give an answer to why premarital sex is immoral without saying "because God said so" or using your own personal bias perceptions?

If you do it right it doesn't hurt anybody or anything. So why is it wrong?

There it is. Thanks, Cadetak, this is what I have been trying to say.

The only difference is that I am in love with someone, and I may or may not be married one day, but either way, I don't think it makes much of a difference on the question.

Why is it wrong?

Pre-marital sex? No. Pre-marital sex without love? Yes. I can't say it is wrong but it certainly isn't a path I would choose. People get hurt when there is relationships without love. Humans, in my oppinion, are naturally healthier when they have a faithful, loving relationship.

Leviticus talks a great deal about who you can and cant sleep with....Such as immediate family and neighbors wifes etc...The only other thing found said to the effect of....Not to approcah a woman when whe is unclean..this refers to her time of the month and bleeding... The blood of another upon oneself was refered to as being unclean in those times.

14:19 Thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

I agree...

An observation on my end: Hell comes from Norse paganism, and is never mentioned in the Bible

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matthew 5:29

i dont believe that u should have to wait til marriage before sex well aslong as u dont over do it [if u know wat i mean ] and it seems to me that most religeons consider pre_marital sex a sin because it is meant to be spiritual act that signifies a major milestone in a relationship but nowadays the churchs and ppls ideas have changed so the church well atleast the reformed ones dont mind premarital sex and sex is becoming more talked about than ever b4 which is fine by me

That is a falsification. It really says: "Mat 5:29 ει δε ο οφθαλμος σου ο δεξιος σκανδαλιζει σε εξελε αυτον και βαλε απο σου συμφερει γαρ σοι ινα αποληται εν των μελων σου και μη ολον το σωμα σου βληθη εις γεενναν" γεενναν, or geenan. Completely different than "hell". And it's sad that some Christians lie by changing that word to suit their own needs. Geena refered to the Valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, where they threw garbage out. Hell was the goddess of the underworld in Norse paganism.

You have stated very well why Adultry against one's wife, or husband is imoral, and also very well How Many sexual partners can lead to STD's and contagion.

That is why certain religious sects say it is a Sin, to try scare one from spreading disease.

Even if they do not know it. Many do.

Along time ago Pork was forbiden to Eat, That's because there was no refrigeration, and poisining of the blood resulted from Eating it.

Now we have referigeration and know about hygene, so Things have evolved.

Love Omnaka

Its not wrong if you feel it's not wrong, also if your aim is to make someone else feel good is key then blessings abound.
Can you please say you NEVER will fall in love again?
Whenever I say that word , it's like asking for it.

Love Omnaka

Hi Omnaka! It's been a while since I have seen you on here.

Anyway, great point on the pork...I think that had something to do with it as well, but I really do think that the primary reason for premarital sex being looked down on in the Bible is because of a sexist view of women. The double standard is still alive and kicking today, too. I think religion has a HUGE part in the sexist society of today, and people find it hard to separate reality from what the Bible demands. That's where the guilt comes in.

And yet why do we associate menstruation with being "unclean"? Could we say it's a symbol of feminine fertility? Perhaps this is just more of the sexism thing that happens so often in the Bible and in cultures all around the Earth. Some Native Americans thought of menstruation as being "evil" and "unclean", but is it really? Shouldn't it be a celebration of our ability to create life out of the unity between two humans? Why do they bleach tampons, pads, etc? To reinforce the cultural idea of menstruation being a negative and dirty time to be a woman. These bleaches are also very irritating to those sensitive areas of a woman's body, and there are many people who are allergic to the bleaches, dyes, and perfumes they put into them. So why don't they take these things out? Because it's better to reinforce negative associations than to let people be free-thinking individuals. Sorry if that was too off topic!!

Think of how rare real love is. People get hurt when there is relationships with love also.

I remember in gradeschool us kids use to make a fuss over who was kissing who then we hit high school and kissing wasn't a big deal anymore. Sex became the same, at times it can mean everything and sometimes it can mean nothing. Someone once told me there is a difference between making love and getting laid which I found to be true.

In regards to ethics or morality as long as it is consensual and responsible I see no wrong.

Never say never. I don't fall easy and rarely even find a lady I like enough to even date. I also don't want to be in love so I will avoid it like the plague.

To be honest I believe in sex before marriage(safe sex practices), alot of relationship issues tend to be sexual, and considering the divorce rate is at 50%, you really want to be sure you want to be with the person forever, and divorcing over difference of sexual opinions, well is easily avoidable.

Who married Adam and Eve? No one was there to do it but them.

I bet the dress would be a designers nightmare in todays standards.......

I'm Roman Catholic. When I was nineteen I went to confession and told the priest that I had committed adultery and that I wanted absolution. He asked me whether I was married and I said no. Then he said that I had not committed adultery - then he told me to say five Hail Marys and Prayer to Saint Joseph.

So my question: Where does the bible say that pre-marital sex is a sin?

It doesnt.
I do think it is a moral sin, but not biblical.
Biblically they refer to those as whores, harlots, woman sinners, and woman as such.....etc...
There is also a difference between premarital sex and adultery. Adultery is with anothers spouse.

It does specify however as in my above post....

If it is specifically stated in the bible, Xians don't need an explanation for their beliefs.
Sex is bad because the bible and Jesus said so. God does not give us the urge, it is Satan that deceives us. Xians feels guilty that Jesus suffered so much in Mel Gibson's film to pay for our sins that it would be evil to go against God.

This also keeps the churches in power. Their "Sins" are thing that are impossible to avoid. This makes people very guilty and shameful. Therefore, they must seek forgivenesses and salvation, so they must support the church and donate and ask for forgiveness. That is when the priests use their great admirable skills to control other people.

It is true that that many morals of our society are based on Xian ideals. It is also a shame. The more open we are about our natural instincts the less trouble. Masturbation helps prevent rape and prostate cancer!

However, there are some positive effects to discouraging sex among teens:
Scares the r******s from doing it too much and ruining their lives.
Not as many abortions to worry about. And if they are poor, then it's worse because the Gov. might pay for their health care and raise taxes!!!

It is kind of hard to scare teens out of sex...well at least for long. Even in a perfect environment to grow up in its inevitable really. You can scare young women into not having sex by the fear of getting pregnant, image of being a **** at school, and by giving them the fantasy of that they will one day meet prince charming, fall in love,and everything will be perfect. Young men on the other hand have no fantasy's of love or much of a desire for their first time to be special and boys don't get labeled as ****s but their sexual conquests are glorified. What happens is that eventually the girls give up resisting. What happens is that the question of "Why should I?" becomes the question of "Why shouldn't I?".

Sex education is the only logical course of action. As in don't scare kids into not having sex but to scare them into using condoms and such.

I'm twenty so I'm barely not a teenager so perhaps my opinion is biased. Although I can tell you that teenagers aren't stupid...my mom couldn't trick me into not eating candy at age seven and my dad couldn't trick me into not having sex at age seventeen. I was smart enough to know that their both good. All I needed to know was the responsible of the goodness...too much candy makes you fat and ruins your teeth. Unresponsible sex results in a baby Cadetak or an unpleasant disease.

Oh and for the record this whole thing shouldn't just be about teenagers because I'm sure there are adults who do not practice safe sex and getting abortions. Education isn't exclusive to the young.

Christianity
Thanks to widespread illiteracy - or apathy, whatever the Church said was now law. Intercourse was no longer natural and good, sex was dirty and only for procreation. Celibacy was the new standard for the clergy. And it was a great money maker! If you sinned by enjoying sex, you must come to the Church for repentance which required a donation to demonstrate your faith. What a perfect way for the Church to raise capital. Make everyone a sinner because of their innate sexual desires, and then offer to absolve them for a sizable donation.
http://www.libchrist.com/bible/history.html

Fully wired speaks more about Victorian ideals than anything else. Victorian ideals, virtues, and morality have a huge impact in America for a long time too. Most people think people had the same ideals as Christians all the way back to the 1st century. That though is far from the truth.

I was well educated on sex , STD's and pregnancy. I still made the "Choice" and was irresponsible at times.
I do not think I will go to hell over being sexually experienced before marriage. Adultery is also an unfortunate
"choice " you have to make for yourself . If you can or can not live with that kind of guilt on your conscience.
If you have 2 consenting willing participants ... I dunno.... Religion can be interpreted in many ways , so
believe what you want and do as you like. Actions do have consequences ~ so be careful ..


One more thing , I could run to Church and confess will that make me forgiven and ready to go sin again ?

dont know where to start Gigs you have very good points...I say listen to your heart and soul and where your peace is. then do what your spirit leads you to do.

The importance of abstaining from premarital sex is due to the legal aspect of consent. If you are underage you do not have legal standing to give consent to sex,this implys that sex is a legal contract .
Historicly a man owned women wheather it was his wife or child,they were his possesion. It was for him decide when to give consent to sex .In 19th c. America the age of consent was 10,in the state of delaware it was 7.
These were 'Christian' laws from a nation "under God". It was in legalised rape ,child exploitation and slavery all wraped in Laws to protect Men in power.Though America has made changes to its laws,other countries thrive on the child sex industry.
Premarital sex a sin ? Seems sin is how the Law defines .

How very sad that we still dont have universal human rights.

When two people stand in front of God and their friends and family and take vows they are committing themselves to one another and this is what sex was made for, for two people who have given themselves to each other mind, body and soul. One can not compare cheap sex to making love with your soul mate that you have committed yourself to, no matter how gratifying you think the cheap sex is making love to your partner in life and love will ALWAYS be the best. I believe thats why God created sex for two people who are committed to each other and can show each other how much they mean to one another. Sex can always be found but it is much more work to find your soul mate and commit mind body and soul and the work and love ill pay off in the end. God meant us to make love not have sex. Of course thats just my opinion,

Always a pleasure

Yep! And also feel guilty and once again go to the Church to receive forgiveness and donate.
It is a cycle that allows the church to practically own you.

My religious friend went into a gentleman's club and saw his Sunday school teacher!! That was an Epiphany for him.
Religious clergy are highly intelligent and cunning individuals.


Many of the Victorian values were shattered by the counterculture movements of the 60s and 70s. Gotta love them hippies!

There is definitely a difference between the act of sex and the act of "making love."
The Ten Commandments specifically outlaws adultery for several reasons:
1. Adultery can cause jealousy and jealousy can lead to murder!
2. A married couple invest a great deal of time and resources in order to establish themselves as a family unit. Adultery tends to break this social contract - a contract which forms the basis of civilized communities. Without marriage, the entire human social structure will break down!
3. Marriage is instituted by society to form an efficient means to educate progeny and carry on the values of culture. Adultery tends to wither this process.
4. Property rights, in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic (i.e. Abraham's tradition) tends to follow down from the male progenitor to his heirs. Adultery (i.e. cuckhold offspring) makes a mockery of property rights and the stability of wealth within the community structure.

and there are other reasons for the instruction against adultery.

But with regard to "pre-marital" sex, the Bible does not instruct against it. Though the Bible does admonish us to take it very seriously - probably because of the strong psychological emotions that awakening sexuality engenders. I basically see the Bible traditions to allow this sexuality, but to tend to imply that it is precursor to bonafide marriage relationships. In any event, pre-marital sex is not to be taken lightly.

Some examples of adultery: "David and Bathsheba" (and David actually has Bathsheba's husband Uriah murdered by putting Uriah into hot battle), Judah and Tamar (maybe not adultery, because Tamar was already in the family).

Pre-marital sex: Maybe David and Michal, Saul's daughter. It seems that she was David's first wife, but they seemingly had been hot for each other for some time before nuptuals; Jacob and his concubines (insofar as Jacob had been with this uncle's family for seven years before his first marriage to Leah); Jacob's daughter with the Prince of Shechem (but Jacob's sons, Dinah's brothers went out in rage and murdered all of the princes of Shechem); Samson and Delilah (they definitely were not wed under Hebrew custom), and I could probably come up with many others if I cared to look.

Further, the law (Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus) proscribes the do's and dont's of taking females and maidservants into the household - including the limits of sexual rights, rewards, and other decorum.

I can't see how the bible traditions ever claim that "pre-marital" sex is sinful; but the Bible does instruct humans to take this aspect of behavior in a very serious way.

Not if you're in the flat below and trying to get to sleep it isnt.



Additionally I would mention that not all people that marry actually love one another and jealously is sometimes quite possibly the driving force behind adultery.

Spiritually, why is sex a sin? I think it really depends on the context. In reality, you sin against yourself, not God, so fundamentally I don't think it is a sin, in and of itself. God allowed us to have sex, and not just for procreation, but for our own enjoyment. Look, if you are with someone you love, married or not I don't believe it is a sin, don't worry about it. Sex is only a sin when it is pure gratification of the ego. You do it simply for its own sake. Desiring endless sexual partners for the conquest, becoming obsessed with the act itself, perversions and sex addictions, those are sins. Not being with someone you love.

So that is why God gave us masturbation!
It is safe, easy, legal, and beneficial.

I say have fun, do what you want as long as you take responsibility and all parties are willing and no kids are involved.

So that is why God gave us masturbation!
It is safe, easy, legal, and beneficial.

I say have fun, do what you want as long as you take responsibility and all parties are willing and no kids are involved.

By the way, I like your avatar Brahman. That has got to be my favorite Pagan Deity !

Just don't go overboard like Onan: Not The Bible: The Book of Onan.

Enjoy the link!