According to the non-Christian, Jewish, Muslim people. Morals just appeared out of no place like life did.


Two people standing in a grove of trees one day just decided that being naked was wrong. Why?

Also how did the decision of two people change the way a bunch of chimps or apes would dress or not dress?

Two people or chimps or apes, made a decision that made everyone else on the planet at the time decide to start wearing cloths all the time instead of when it was cold.


You guys like to have everything just happen no ryme nor reason to it.

Well first it would be nice to know if you feel only humans hold morals, and if not did the animals also get morals from god?

Maybe they were bigots. Maybe she was fat and he wanted her to cover up becuase it was unsightly. Maybe she couldn't stand watching him flop around all the time. Maybe they were just stupid and didn't realize that it's not wrong to be naked.

Is it wrong to be naked? Do you bathe with your clothes on? If you don't, you're a dirty, dirty creature.

In my attempt to answer your question seriously:

I'd guess that the spontaneous moment when being naked in public became "wrong" was the exact moment some religious person in power decided it was wrong.

I do not think that animals have morals but if they do they got theirs from god too.

Perhaps the interpretation is in error, perhaps it meant the end of innocence the beginning of maturity....

which creation story does one follow??? ..there are two, one speaks of an imminent deity one a transcendental .. they are two different stories...


its wonderful to see you questioning , you know the academic approach to the bible is a delightful journey and amazing in what one can learn( theology)...give it a try daniel ..it need not compromise your faith... One never has to beleive anything to have a look at it....
literal interpretation is not commmonly adopted in the modern world....the creation stories are mythological stories based on sumerian dulman ( paradise) stories...

I question everything. I even question myself.

gosh you and me both hon, how can one not eh???? I actually have noticed you question...........

Ok, ah a shame.

The only thing I do not question is my experience at birth.

?

Not all people do like wearing clothing. . .look at some of these tribes in other countries. . . alot of them run around nude or semi-nude. . .and, speaking of nude, nudists don't see it as being morally wrong. . .its just a point of view. Early humans wore clothing to protect themselves from the elements (since we are a bit lacking in the "fur" area. ..well, most of us anyways), and I guess it just grew into something that we're just "supposed" to do. I mean. ..we don't have much as far as natural defences from the elements, so we had to do something.

I just ment that the subject became quite a bit less interresting to me because of that ^^ thats all

True but even in san fransisco they will arrest you if you walk down the street nude.

If you don't agree with me then tell me why.


There was one day at a park in salt lake that I watched a male duck rape a female duck. The reason I know it was rape is because 1 the female resisted. 2 the females mate tried to stop him.

That's because we are in America. The clothing thing has already become the norm, but the point is that it isn't everywhere nor was it always the case. . . People didn't start wearing clothing because its morally "right" . They started wearing clothing to shield themselves from the elements. . .like I already said. . .
I'm sure Christianity had a lot to do with the taboo of nudeness. ..since that usually leads to sex and sex is a very touchy (no pun intended) subject in that religion as well as others. But to say that people wear clothes because they got "morals" from god is a bit of an assumption. . . especially considering that, in some places, people think its perfectly ok to go without clothes. In America, we know better because of laws. . .but I'm sure plenty of us would be running around naked if we could.

http://vulcanis.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/m...tural-altruism/
A nice explaination.

Morals are complex emotions. They have evolved over time from emotions.
Mainly, though, morals are pushed on us as children. Otherwise, it would be doubtful how much moral we actually would have.

Morals began as a way to survive. Live together die alone. Humans figured that if they worked together, their chance of survival would increase.
Then, the ones who worked together(IE Didn't kill, cooperated, etc.) lived more often, and passed on their knowledge to their children.
Kind of like Natural Selection minus the genetics.
In civilization, these morals became more common place, and then laws.

That was pretty easy to explain. And for me, well, I know I don't need a silly book of fairy tales, have to pay money to a church, and shove my beliefs down other's throats to have morals.

well said sglserver. . .I wish I could word things that well. . . but my wording ended up with naked people running around america.

Morals didn't suddenly just appear when Christianity came on the scene, I hate to tell you. Morals are culturally based, in other words, what is okay in Moracco, not okay in Japan. Depending on what area and culture you come from morals can take on a very different look and feel.

Morals as we understand them, came about as a survival tool. Bashing in the head of your leader for saying something wrong meant you had no leader, okay here's a rule don't bash leaders head in. Things like that? Okay? Over time depending on your group you end up with a list of things that were okay and some that were not.

As for nudity, there are still some tribes around the world who (don't be shocked) don't care whether you wear clothes or not. They have different moral ideas than we do because they haven't been brainwashed or converted to believe being nude is wrong (yet I'm sure given time ...). Public nudity probably went away not because of a moralistic attitude but more because of survival. Running around naked in the cold means you die faster. I'm sure in the many thousands of years of human development people in colder climates figured this out and wearing clothes then became the norm. That is not the case in other warmer climates. (Pretty simple if you think about it)

thats true maybe ppl just got cold cause we are hair less is animals where hairless i bet they would put panst on....we do it to dogs like lil jackets and such..

they do its called order of social status. not from god its instinct

Perhaps no prime mover (initial cause) of the universe but all the things within can be studied and imo can be found to have a cause. Especially what you mention in your post.

Morals for example are now being studied by science and as far as has been found in preliminary research, evolution seems to be the motivator & cause. The Cosmos magazine reported on this research but I do not have a copy to quote what it said. Sorry.

With regards to your clothes story. Really, it does not take much thinking effort to realise that there could be a number equally good explanations as to why we started wearing clothes. None of which require a belief in a deity. The moment we started using tools (ie. using the environment rather than the environment using us) we became creative and creativity has evolved alongside other traits. Creativity can still be seen in many tribes around the world with face painting, 'dressing up' and other accessories. Some tribes still only wear the minimum (whatever that is by their standards - which probably hasn't seen YOUR god). Animals like to pose and show-off to their (potential) mates, so do humans. Clothing could have been used in some parts and perhaps intially in the same way. Other times and other places it just kept us warm as we explored or lived through colder seasons. And no, I do not have proof of these but I don't really need to in this case. They stand equally as well (if not better) than anything else that has no proof.

Cheers

Hi Danielost,

Well as you know I don't think morals spontaneously came into being with the advent of the Bible. Like others have said it really is bound up with our evolution.

We are not solitary species. We work in cooperation with others to build a safe community in which to pass on our genes. Combine the theory of mind/central nervous system/consequential empathy/need to survive - for me is how morals and the 'how are we to live' ideas came into play.

Where these things come into conflict is rather interesting in itself. Because your Big Ideas impact the minutiae of my life. (not you personally lol)

Generally speaking if someone’s beliefs/morals don’t impact on me why would I care? Of course everybody’s reality is different. I learn new lessons everyday. Sometimes I misinterpret my environment. I am often found out to be wrong. So is everyone else, but at the time it is our truth.

So what does this matter? If we were animals who lived solitary existence it wouldn’t. But we aren’t we live in communities that curtail and we all try and push our own truths onto each other. We all find our own lines and how far we wish our personal truth to interlude on others. Some things are very concrete: roads should be maintained etc, others ideas are more nebulous. That line is very difficult to decide. Who am I to tell someone that what they are experiencing is invalid? But I wrestle that against the need/desire to impose my will on others as I am a community focused animal.

We constantly need to be checking that our evolutionary need to discern the right way to live does not impinge drastically on others rights.

Perhaps humans create morals because it is in our self-interest (i.e. survival instinct) to do so. Sharks don't have morals, they just go on instinct - eat, eat, eat, reproduce...

We, however, have intellect and therefore a far more severe potential for destruction. Maybe we "evolve" morality to protect ourselves from ourselves.

Sorry the part of the bible I am refering to is the jewish part not the christian part.

Lots of other animals work together non wear cloths unless people put them on them.

Then the question is. Did we start wearing cloths because we had no fur or do we have no fur because we started wearing cloths?

well noone knows how can u? noone was there

I don't understand what your question is/who your question is directed to...What exactly are you asking?

Sorry Doll, I wasn't so narrowly focused on the clothing issue - I took a big picture approach

Basically what I remember is that we don't have fur because of sweating and cooling capacities on the African savanna. Our upright positioning/bipedalism could be mixed up with that, not sure. I'll have a look later for links.

If all morals came from God why do different societies have different morals. People in the tropics didn't wear much for cloths until the missionaries came a long with their goofy ideas. Believe me it is much to hot in the tropics for a lot of cloths. I don't know how those pioneer women did it in those cloths.

If you look at Art you see a lot of nudity from the old Masters. The human body is a high point of art, great artist master the nude. Europe has naked statues in public places all over. Personally I find Abrahamic belief lacking in morality, it sees to be more hung up on sex and nudity than intolerance, hate, war, and common sense.

Well,
based on some pics I recently saw of "zoo animals" I wouldnt be taking impressionable children ther to see some of the sights there...thats for sure...

Mouths on things they dont belong on in front of children, and positions that would put the kama sutra to shame.....

So i hope it was more a people choice than obviously it was a chimps!!!! OOOhhhhh, my

seriously i would ware just a bikini if society where ok with it


well they need to sytay clean

well they need to sytay clean

What do clothes have to do with anything moral? Seriously. We started wearing clothing as a species when we migrated to climates that demanded it. We have no fur because we evolved in a hot, humid climate. Having sweat glands and limited hair gave us a huge advantage when it came to heat dissipation. We could be active when predators were inactive. Plus, clothing has nothing to do morals. Morals are social agreements. Nothing more. It became "immoral" to not wear clothes in some societies only because of religious or social norms. Clothing can represent status. Clothing can represent modesty. All these things are human social inventions and have nothing to do with how empathic a person is to other people which is a true measure of morality. And empathy is a trait we share with just about every other social animal. A species wouldn't be very successful in a social sense if it went around killing everyone in the group now would it?

You also seem to imply that there was no sense of morality prior to what? Judaism? For thousands of years prior and to the millions never introduced to judeo-christian "morality" everybody was immoral?

well they need to sytay clean

Third attempt at your question Daniel! So we have no fur in Africa for cooling purposes - yet moving out of Africa and in colder parts of Africa we need to find a way to be more impervious to the temperature extremes - clothing.

It has all sorts of tribal/affiliation/sexuality impropriety connotations from these tribals times as well. These get passed down as 'custom'. And views of what is 'right' and 'wrong' take hold.

edit: just saw capeo said it better lol.

well they need to sytay clean

well they need to sytay clean

my comp has gone haywire

cant post these pics..... but, got the hint... lol

The Great-Great-Great-Great-Great Grandparents of the first Jews had about the same morals, minus the fairy tale stuff.
AKA- Egyptians, Sumerians, etc. They had basic laws, morals, etc.(Hammurabi's laws, anyone?)

God didnt' give us morals and I'm very glad that a god didn't. I mean the god that gets a kick out of genocide, raping girls and women, murdering people of all ages, torturing little babies to death, spreading hatred and opression to those that don't want to fall in line... The moral compass of those people are quite off course of "good".

Morals came about over time with humans just as they have with animals... If you don't want something done to you, it's normally a good thing not to do it to someone else. We're animals ourself... Social herding ones at it to. It didn't happen over night or just staring out into a forest one day as you claim but over a very long time. To work together and to survive. You just can't tell me honestly that you think humans survived all these years as brutal savages trying to kill each other and completely with out morality until after a few million years some guy thought up the torah and presto, the entire region fell into line with morality.

Morality is only a stolen trait that religion claims as it's own. Compare your own religion up against other religions... They believe their god(s) and/or goddess(es) gave them morality to. Are they any more right in their religion then you are?

Danilost, check out material on the oldest societies on earth - Australian Aboriginal people, Highland Papuan tribes, bushmen of the kalahari, and tell me what you see. If you can find info of the first contact with people from outside their communities, even better. These societies represent what most societies were like 10 - 60,000 years ago. I can tell you that even the oldest of Aboriginal people have insanely complicated social structures, all evolved to ensure survival and genetic diversity. Morals, in other words. I can also tell you that Most older societies in hot places (Papua, Australia) wore nothing - apart from maybe penis sheaths - until we turned up.

I think the question has been answered quite sufficiently already, but I'd still like to add what I feel is another key part of the discussion.

The difference between Laws and Morals. Is it immoral to go faster than the speed limit on an empty road? I'd say no, but if you got caught by the cops they're still going to bust you. Is it immoral for a person to smoke cannabis in their home? Most of the time, no, except when there are children around who are at risk of being neglected by their stoned guardian, but still it's against the law and the cops will bust you for it. I'm not sure on the exact laws, but I think being naked in your own backyard is against the law in most of the western world, but what's immoral about that? If no one can see into your backyard(and nobody should be looking into other peoples backyards) what's the problem? You could also name some immoral acts that are perfectly legal or encouraged by the law, like ratting to the cops about your friends cannabis crop in their shed when it doesn't really have anything to do with you. Or you could name just about anything a politician or lawyer does.

Nudity itself is not immoral at all, it's quite natural really. Once we get over this era of being afraid of sex and nudity, people will slowly stop having a problem with it, and, voila, nudity is no longer considered immoral or indecent.

Excellent summation. Cool stuff..

YES !!

Human morals come from humans..unless Wal-Mart do a two for one offer I say why not buy a few LMAO

You people really seem to think that creationists are pretty stupid.

Of course I know that the morales came along before the Jews.

Since I am referring to Adam and Eve, and since they were around at least 2000 years before the Israelites.

So the ones who are stupid are the ones who actually thought when I refereed to the Jewish part of the bible meant that they came up with the morals. When I state that I am referring to the Jewish part of the bible I am referring to the part written by the Israelites. For those of you still not clear this would be the Old Testament.

As for morals, we are not the only group of animals on this planet that are social. We are however the only ones who wear clothing out of modesty.


I will also see your cultures that run around naked in the hot areas of the world. With The Egyptians, The Sumerians, The Jews, Most of the Arabs in fact.

From people who had enough "pennies" to know what the hell is wrong with peoples actions. Some historians believe that the ten commandments was nothing more than a moral code set by the powers that be for the people who I guarantee were a lot more terrible as a whole in those days as in ours.

still not fromgod