Hello there

I thought i would start my own topic of conversation. Im not sure this is the right place but im sure it can be moved if its not.

In Ireland the legend goes that there are no snakes or indeed dragons (mythologically speaking) in Ireland. This is half true.
There are several dragon myths in ireland, even relating to how there are no longer Dragons in Ireland.

Some people say these myths were conjured up after the "there are no dragons in Ireland" legend by people who want dragons to be everywhere.
Some people, myself included, take the stance that there were in deed dragon myths from Ireland dating hundreds and thousands of years back and the "there are no dragons in Ireland" legend is just an expansion on the "there are no snakes in Ireland" story.

i realise this may not be interesting to many of you but i find this debate interesting so i thought id see if anyone else did.

But what is the point of even starting the thread, since you claim dragons never existed in the first place? With your mentality, then you are right, this topic is out of place. You are denying dragons are cryptids from the onset, and this forum is about cryptids. Now if your point was, "we know there are no small reptiles in Ireland because of Ice Age glaciers as the scientists state, but since large dragons have been recorded in legends long before St. Patrick, this suggests that since dragons could swim and fly, they repopulated Ireland after the Ice Age".

And if real, did St. Patrick drive them out or destroy them? No. By the dark ages, dragons had long since gave up the charade they were gods, and were only infrenquently seen, much like lake monster accounts everywhere. If a dragon had been killed, its remains woulud have been preserved as treasured artifiacts, exactly like the fake remains and fossils thought to be dragon remains.

Of course there were dragon legends in Ireland before St. Patrick, and some prove St. Patrick is a nonsense, because of dragon/lake monster sighting have occured for centuries AFTER St. Patrick supposedly drove the out. If there had been ANY real interaction between St. Patrick and Dragons it would probably have been non-combatitive since even the Catholic Chruch of St. Patrick's time acknowledged that dragons were seraphim, the highest of all heavenly creatures.

About 95% of this is completely off topic. Do not turn this into a debate on the existance of dragons, proof of their existance, dragons portrayed as gods, lake monsters being dragons, etc.
HE asked about the LEGENDS of dragons in Ireland, being related to the legend of St. Patrick driving the snakes out. Nothing more. IF you want to argue the other topics, go back to the other thread. Those are not relevant here, except to you for some reason.

you seem to forget this forum is dedicated to Crytozoology, so all of the threads should be related to cryptic animals. This is the topic of these forums.

If the poster does not believe they are cryptid animals, then there are many other forums where this is better suited, Like Spirituality, Religion and BELIEFS. And since you cannot contribute anything to this discussion anyway, why to you even come here to make your pointless remarks?

I never said it wasn't a crypitc topic. You, once again, are trying to turn it into an argument on the existance of dragons. That is not the topic. Stick to the topic.

I am getting sick of this DC. The text in bold is nothing but bitter ramblings.

I believe dragons should beh headed under the mythology heading, yes. But many believe them as cryptids and by defonition they are so this (i think) is an adequate place to put them.
I also asked a well mannered genuine question with a subject i am currently struggling with. I thought with the combination of intelligent minds that use these forums someone might be able to help me in my own debate.
yes i asked about the mythology surrounding dragons. And i expect someone to reply, at least somewhere on the same vain.
Please do NOT ruin my thread DC. It served no purpose.

Anyone else? Do you have an opinion on my original post? Please?

If it does not relate to thier existence as a cryptic animal then "dragons in Ireland" has nothing to do with cryptozoology. Why don't you understand that?

Therefore the mods will move it if that is the case. What gives you the right to destroy the thread and its meaning just because it might be placed in the wrong place. Infact, who the hell are you to decide whether it is the wrong place? You are NOT a mod!!!!

Out of curiosity, how long before you notice that the second part of this forum's name is "Myths and Legends"?

Besides, the topic fits nicely here whether or not Dariune66 personally believes in dragons.

Dragons were extremely important in Irish mythology, however most of the legends were affected by the arrival of Chritianity. Irish dragons were almost universally portrayed as evil satanic beasts and it is difficult to get to the original stories.
When Saint Patrick reached Ireland, he began by ridding the country of snakes then went on to imprisoning the serpents and dragons.

One of the last dragons in Ireland was Paiste (Lig-na-Baste), a fire-breathing serpent from the beginning of time. He was still around when St Patrick died and was eventually subdued by the trickery of Saint Murrough. He still lives in the waters of Lough Foyle. From
http://www.dragonorama.com/western/celtic.html

More links...
http://www.fantasy-ireland.com/Celtic-dragons.html

http://www.blackdrago.com/famous_irish.htm .....this has some good stuff

mr nobody (i dont like calling you that ) i apreciate your answer. I am aware of two of those websites but i had missed the last. thats great stuff, many many thanks.

Paiste seems very similar to Ollipeist who was also supposedly the last dragon.

Actually it is "Cryptozoology, MYTHS AND LEGENDS" So Legends are a perfectly acceptable topic on this forum. Being such an esteemed writer I would have thought you would have noticed that.

Some more... http://www.theserenedragon.net/Tales/England.html

http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-dragon6.html

http://www.habitas.org.uk/larne/seadragon.html

Wow how did you find those last two sites? Im genuinly impressed considering you have only been looking for a few minutes. Thanks very much mate

Im going to go through those with a fine tooth comb and then post here in a moment. (or a few)

This thread is perfectly suited to the crytozoology board, please don't derail the topic.

Thank you.

You must 'see' when you are looking:P hehehe

He's right DC, this is a cryptic topic, but this is dealing with the myths and legends around ireland about the dragons of ireland




Well i do, its very interesting and i'd really like to know a bit more about this, why? mostly because its a favor to my sister who is moving to ireland after she graduates



Agreed

And on a final note thanks to Mr. Nobody for the sites they look interesting, and when i have more time i'll check them out.

Why don't you understand that this topic is under cryptozoology, MYTHS, AND LEGENDS!!! He is perfectly well in the right category. Is that so hard to understand??

Great findings!! Thanks for the info.

I saw a dragon yesterday

But it wasn't in ireland it was Wales

It was red and flapping at the top of a pole

pretty scary

I've already made a post about this, lets keep the thread on topic please.

Ahhh Y Ddraig Goch, my personal favorate legend.

mr nobody the sites were great, i now have enough information to buy a few books on the subject which i will be ordering later on tonight. Armed with those i should have enough info to satiate my mind on the Irish legends. I really apreciate that.

Check. I responded before reading further.

So what is that legend? it sounds interesting allready

yeah i want to know more about it

Another dragon thread?

Mr.Nobody; GREAT links!!!

Yes well this is the legands and myths surrounding Ireland, not a disscussion about wheather or not they are real, which i think they are

Here is a basic outline of the Y Ddraig Goch myth. Right Here

UndeadSkeptic is it a problem that i created a dragon related thread? I actually came here to speak to like minded people about mythology and dragons happen to be my favorate.
I can assure you i am not like some, who would enforce my beliefs or damage threads if that is your concern. If it is merely dragons you oppose then i will try to keep my conversing about dragons limited to the threads that currently exist. I am aware that this board is not only for dragons so i will respect peoples wishes if they want no more threads on the creatures.

wow cool myth kudos on that

The story of St. Murrough and the dragon Paiste has many elements that suggest it is quite early, and is one of the more "authentic" sounding stories based on my research of the conntection between 'dragons' and the heavenly 'flying serpent' Seraphim of the Bible. For centuries, it was common Christian knowledge that dragons were heavenly creatures, that would be called upon at the time of the Apocolypse to destroy the wicked in the world. In this light, the fact that the dragons was not slain and could actually 'argue' with the Saint that his rights were being violated would have made perfect sense to people familiar with early medieval Christian theology, though it may seem strange to those who are ignorant of the original theology. This is a far cry from stories like St. George, simply invented out of thin air hundreds of years later to make the life of a relatively obscure Saint more interesting. By this much later date, the dragons of Christian stories no longer talk, but are simply beasts to be slain to enhance the prowness of the hero.

This is one of the Saint and Dragon stories that is examined in detail in my book because of its 'authentic' elements that compliment what we know the ancient and early medieval church believed about dragons.

It seems more and more clear that St. Patrick driving out the serpents was a allegory for the elimination of pagan and dragon-based belief systems. As many on the boards have pointed out, many legends and poems use the term serpent and dragon interchangeably (a subject that often comes up in these discussions ).

Whether St. Patrick or the dragons were real is another argument. But it is clear that the previous belief system was changed, and that St. Patrick is symbolic of the overall process.

Id agree with that

As I have suggested before, there may be a kernel of truth behind all ancient dragon legends, and there are actually some interesting similarities between the Murraugh/Patrick and Columba stories. If my theory that Yahweh is a dragon, as well as the seraphim assistants (for which there is quite overwhelming proof as you know) is correct, then 'local' British Isles dragons which preyed on 'pagans' with impunity for centuries, and played their gods, may have been forced to 'cease and desist' preying on the newly converted "Yahweh worshippers" or depart the area, exactly as related..

If we are to take the legend at face value, Nessie for example, had just killed/perhaps eaten one man and was chasing another when Columba warned the beast that he 'worked for Yahweh' and could no longer harm the people who would now worship Yahweh. This dragon seemed quite startled by this information, probably related in a civilized tongue like Lain, and desisted from the attack. In this case the dragon decided to stay in the region, but we have no later accounts of it preying on humans.

In Ireland too, and in the same time period two Saints converting pagans to worship Yahweh, persuade dragons to either leave, or like Nessie, stay in lakes and subsist on a non-human diet, as in the case of "Paiste", who seems to be an ancient dragon familiar to the earlier pagan culture.

There is a popular conception that the pre Christian pagans of the British Isles regarded dragons as 'good', but for all we know, may have freely fed them human offerings so they would remain 'good', which may be why the efforts of the early christian saints to 'tame' them or drive them away were appreciated so much, and why the people were quickly converted to new beliefs (which in that period were not new at all, and still full of dragons, as very few Christians realize.)

Of course, this has no connection with the utterly ridiculous dragonslaying Saint stories like George, where we can see they were complete farications, even to the point of knowing the author who invented it.

Patrick is a well-attested historical figure. While many of the incidents of his ministry are obvious signs-and-wonder tales, the man lived in historical times, and was literate himself. His Confessio, generally regarded as authentic, may be read in translation here:

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/p01.html

another electronic version, with references to manuscript sources and commentaries is here.

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/L201060/index.html

There never were any snakes in Ireland, as discussed here:

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/Reptiles...elandsnakes.cfm

The "Irish" mythic material that we read is heavily stepped on by Christian scribes. They were certainly not above frank injections of allegory here and there, and they were the inheritors (and for a time, conservators) of continental scholarship, presumably infected with dragon lore.

It is very difficult to unscramble that omelet at this late date, to arrive at specifically Irish belief, especially since the Irish Celts did not write down their own religious lore.

good work!

Did anyone ever say there were any snakes in ireland in this thread?

To be sure, the Christian religious lore preserved in Ireland in the dark ages was full of dragon lore, but NOT of the 'slay the evil dragon' kind. Contemporary Chjristan artifacts and text acknowledge dragons as powerful assistant of God that were sent to punish the wicked, and even in the Irish Paiste legend, it was believe the monster would be released to wreak heavenly retribution on judgement day just as the dragons controlled by Gabriel in heaven, an idea nurtured by the draconic seraphim of the old tetament as well as later scriptures popular with early Christians such as Enoch and the Apoc. of Baruch.

Most of the dragonslaying literature of Christian theology all comes from one author and one book, written hundreds of years after the stories of Columba and Patrick. There was no conspiracy for Christianity to portray all dragons as evil, and from the devil, for during this period, the Chruch leaders, in their own religious studies and correspondence believed dragons were heavenly creatures, and the most knowledgeable had to have known Yahweh Himself was regarded as a dragon in some ancient scriptures.

I BELIEVE that was stated in the Op, so yes, snakes never existing in Ireland has been mentioned. And since when did dragons "prey on Pagans?" Source?Pagans worshipped dragons, you know, and THIS is why the Christians wanted to portray them as evil. If the deities you worship are evil, then you have to be converted asap. It was just used to control Pagans. Any source for these "ancient Christian texts" that acknowledge dragons as powerful assistants to God? (FYI, Loch Ness is in Scotland, not Ireland, so you just kind of proved you don't know what the heck you're talking about.)

Aside from the last jab, Otter, I am in complete agreement. There is little to suggest that the pagans of the isles regarded the dragons of their myths as hostile. As has been documented many times, the missionaries literally deionized the deities (some of whom, in this case, were dragons) of the natives. This is most likely the source of the "dragon-slaying" myths of Christian Europe: Saints portrayed as destroying the dragons that were representative of the old pagan deities. Since the old gods are now demons, any who kept the old faith was in league with the Devil, and could be executed.

I never said Loch Ness was in Ireland. I said these were similar stories from the similar time period. You cannot be so dumb as to think I do not know where Loch Ness is.

And we know almost nothing about the dragon legands of the pagan British. Dragons seemed to prey on the ancient Germans and Vikings.

The 'pagans' may have worshipped the dragons, much as Yahweh was worshipped, though the dragons may have expected offerings of at least domestic animals. much like Yahweh. They may have been genuinely relieved if the Saints made the dragons leave, or retreat to the deep lakes.

Yes, there are many instances of heavenly dragon servants. I have mentioned many before. First, real hebrew scholars know the Seraphim are winged reptiles. The Christians understood this too, as we see in decorations of Bible covers of God judging sinners on a throne of dragon tails with the dragons swallowing thos who don't pass. They also believed the Cherubim were dragons, and medieval bibles portray god riding a dragon in the books of Psalms and II Samual. The Book of Enoch places Gabriel in charge of the dragons, the Apoc. of Baruch describes dragons in heaven that consume the wicked, a dragon helps build Solomons temple in the testament of Solomon, in post Biblical Jewish lore, God answers a prayer by seding a dragon to devour an evil governor of Babylon who presecuted the Jews there. The list goes on and on.

The anti-dragon christian conspiracy is largely a fallacy. Nearly all of the Christian dragonslaying stories are very late products of a single book, including the St. George nonsense. They were written LONG after the period whcich the pagan were actually being converted. In these times, heavenly dragons were full acknowledged. Those stories weren't to convert pagans, they were written to make peasants be more interested in the otherwise boring lives of Saints before the dragons were added. The more authentic, older stories are more ones where a saint tames a dragon, more in line with acting as Jesus would act.

Oh no no problem at all. I am merely tired and to be fair very bored of the thousands of dragon topics that this forum is infested with. Its like a rash, and the more you itch it, the more it grows!

There are only three currently active dragon threads, if you don't wish to discuss dragons then the easiest solution is to simply avoid viewing or contributing to those threads.

Thanks for a great web link it really sounds interesting and its definalty one of my fav legands now

also who knew that Final Fantasy posted so many things based on mythology its facinating really (why because they have something like that legand in FF12 and wow i mean way to make the game cool right?)

but anyways its a great link and great legands are there Thanks!!

It's not the sheer number, it's that the content is the same - it's always certain people jumping in, and then the other half of the argument falls on them like a pack of wolves and the same old fight continues. But my first post here was bumping a million-year-old Megalodon post, if I remember correctly, so I'm not hating. =P

"In Ireland the legend goes that there are no snakes or indeed dragons (mythologically speaking) in Ireland."

Doot de doo, not making another reminder about the topic, nope, not at all.

I've always thought the St. Patrick legend was akin to those stories like how the bear lost its tail and how the giraffe's neck got long. Giraffes (in human history) never had short necks, and bears never had long tails, but people created tales using existing figures to try and explain the phenomena. However, could it be that the specific term "snakes" came about through mistranslation and originally referred to all reptiles, or that "snakes" or "serpents" and "dragons" essentially mean the same thing? Historically they're very interchangeable, and large reptiles are even referred to as dragons in modern times.

I'm quite proud of my Irish roots, myself, I've always found the ancient peoples from that part of Europe to be utterly fascinating. I have to admit I'd never really thought of dragons as an Irish concept at all though, but those were some neat links to read. ^___^

Sorry about my late reply, ive had a manic week.

There have certainly been some interesting things said (and a few predictibly uninteresting things said)

I agree with Archosaur that the stories of St patrick relating to dragons were a symbol of Christianities overall progressive dominance in Ireland.
I believe that the tale of Ollipeist was also a way of explaining why there are no snakes in Ireland. As i have mentioned before, i believe anything not obviously explainable was eventually tied in with a myth to make it explainable.

DC, please stop going on about Yahweh and your dragon religion. Its getting extremely boring. Better yet, create a thread about it and stay in that thread. I can understand why people are getting bored of dragon threads. You, whether it be for jest or a misunderstanding them, are making them monotonous. So much so that im struggling with the dragon thread and i am passionate about dragons.

Thanks everyone for contributing to this thread. You have given me several places to look.
One more question, other than the Dragon cave, Loughcrew and the lake of Tara (i think) does anyone know of any Irish places tied in with draconic legend?
Just out of interest.