well my problem with athiesm is that you can not disprove a higher power, I mean its basicly impossible, but with thiest you can not prove it either its something we ponder but thier is no undeniable proof when it comes to the question if god exist or not. So I just stick with the fact that I do not know.

Atheism cannot prove there is no God and theism can't prove there is a God. The burden of proof is on theism however.

Those are all silly logical points that person made. Theism does not offer any logical arguments to prove or disprove Atheism. I hope you are not really expecting one which kind of makes me suspect you are after something different.

I do think though that it is much easier for someone who believes in God to understand where an atheist is coming from than for an atheist to even understand what goes on in the mind and heart of someone who has experienced God.

Recently I was confronted by a theist who told me my beliefs were false and he could prove it. I then listened to his points.

-In order to know if God exists, you must know everything.
-In order to know everything, you must be God.
-Therefore only God knows if there is no God.
-Being that only God can know if there is a God, would know that he is God and that there is a God.
-So I conclude there is a God.

I stared at the man. You know, blink a few times, stare some more. Once I was able to get over the fact that he was serious, I pointed out where his logic became fallacious. Then he used the classic, the very fact that atheists exist proves God exists. I asked how and he said you can't deny something that doesn't exist. I gave an example showing his reason to be false and he told me I just had faith and then he left. Now everyone here, I'm assuming, realizes how pathetic and false the arguments he presented were. However, I am constantly told how illogical my atheistic views are. Are these really all that theists have to offer? What I want to know is, what are these incredible proofs they claim to have, that show our complete ignorance? I've spent the past three hours reading through Christian apologetics and I have not found a single argument against atheism that I couldn't disprove in under a minute. If I am in fact ignorant, please enlighten me. I ask that people present logical arguments that disprove atheism. I don't want personal experiences, religions, or a holy book. Just present logical arguments.

yes becasue thiesm thinks they have all the anwser and knows the mind of the higher being, I would rather be in a world with athiest then thiest any day casue athiesm does no harm its just how they feel cause thier is no evidence. but is no relveince on the issue really, god doesnt care its just our ever expanding cosmos, doing its job.

Those are all silly logical points that person made. Theism does not offer any logical arguments to prove or disprove Atheism. I hope you are not really expecting one which kind of makes me suspect you are after something different.

I do think though that it is much easier for someone who believes in God to understand where an atheist is coming from than for an atheist to even understand what goes on in the mind and heart of someone who has experienced God.

If you can see the point of view of an agnostic: Both theism and atheism are based on an assumption. The assumption must be made because knowledge is finite. No solution is possible.
Doug

Well, atheism can do harm, just look at Stalin and the entire Marxist regime. Any belief system, or anything at all for that matter, put in the hands of man can be used for evil. However, in my oppinion, theists rely on nothing but desire and lack of evidence to fuel their beliefs while atheists are intro-spective, and challenge their own beliefs, looking for flaws that can be fine tuned.

Those are all silly logical points that person made. Theism does not offer any logical arguments to prove or disprove Atheism. I hope you are not really expecting one which kind of makes me suspect you are after something different.

The agnostic view is lame in my oppinion. Technically, every single person on this planet is an agnostic. Only extremists claim that they know whether there is a god or not. However, each and everyone one of us believes there is or isn't. That's like the guy at a superbowl party who doesn't want to pick the team he thinks will win. He does think one team will win, but he doesn't know so he doesn't say. As I said before, I find this to be lame.

Personally BM I think it reflects a slight residual belief that Christianity gives morals when people give examples of atheism doing harm ie Stalin and Marxism. Like because of their atheism they did the evil deeds, which was not the primary influence IMO. Just because they lacked a belief in God, all their other beliefs become their atheistic beliefs, and it becomes a primary motivator. Hope that makes sense - not positive it does.

What I want to know is, what are these incredible proofs they claim to have, that show our complete ignorance?

Ya, I understand what you're saying. And what I'm saying is belief in god or lack of belief in god can be used as excuses to commit atrocities. I think men like Christopher Hitchens often ignore the common factor in all evil deeds. It's man.

Well, atheism can do harm, just look at Stalin and the entire Marxist regime. Any belief system, or anything at all for that matter, put in the hands of man can be used for evil. However, in my oppinion, theists rely on nothing but desire and lack of evidence to fuel their beliefs while atheists are intro-spective, and challenge their own beliefs, looking for flaws that can be fine tuned.

Atheists don't have to prove god doesn't exist either. It is up to the person who is making a claim to back up their own words. Not the other way around.

I don't want personal experiences, religions, or a holy book. Just present logical arguments.

well the thing is with me I only label myself as agnostic casue people only speak through labeling things, Im just ignorant of or not a higher power exist but I do not bealive in any religous dogma's that I am presented with cause they can be disproved 1000 times over.

well personal I bealive that Stalin was a crazy person

Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things -- that takes religion. -- Steven Weinberg

Look up at night.

Speaking of labels. I'd like to bring up a point on labels. I often hear Christians say that atheists are so negative they feel the need to identify themselves in the negative. It's true, we do. However, the label is meaningless. It's a lot easier to say atheist, than, identify yourself with one of the many "denominations" which have a positive name. In addition, people such as myself, don't line up with every view of the many "denominations." So I simply use the label atheist. When asked what I am I could sit down for twenty-four hours and explain my views on philosophy, science, politics, crime, family... or I can say atheist.

well we just have to except as long as people have crazy ideas poping into thier heaad we can get ride of the plague called religon, its sad casue some athiest think that athiesim is a religous belif when its not

"The Bible tell us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go."

Contemporary biologists and geologists who are Christians and theistic evolutionists include

* Kenneth R. Miller, professor of biology at Brown University, author of Finding Darwin's God (Cliff Street Books, 1999), in which he states his belief in God and argues that "evolution is the key to understanding God." Dr. Miller has also called himself "an orthodox Catholic and an orthodox Darwinist" (the 2001 PBS special "Evolution").
* Derek Burke, Professor of Biological Sciences at the University of Warwick
* R. J. Berry, Professor of Genetics at University College London
* evangelical Christian and geologist Keith B. Miller (no relation to Kenneth) of Kansas State University, who compiled an anthology Perspectives on an Evolving Creation (Eerdmans, 2003)
* biologist Denis Lamoureux of St. Joseph's College, University of Alberta, Canada who has co-authored with evolution critic Phillip E. Johnson Darwinism Defeated? The Johnson-Lamoureux Debate on Biological Origins (Regent College, 1999)
* biologist Darrel Falk of Point Loma Nazarene University, author of Coming to Peace with Science
* biologist Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project and author of The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief in which he has suggested the term BioLogos for theistic evolution.
* biologist Joan Roughgarden, teaches at Stanford University; author of various books including Evolution and Christian Faith: Reflections of an Evolutionary Biologist.
* paleontologist Robert T. Bakker
* microbiologist Richard G. Colling of Olivet Nazarene University, author of Random Designer: Created from Chaos to Connect with Creator
* paleobiologist Prof. Simon Conway Morris of Cambridge University, well known for his groundbreaking work on the Burgess Shale fossils and the Cambrian explosion, and author of Life's Solution: Inevitable Humans in a Lonely Universe

Philosophers, theologians, and physical scientists who have supported the evolutionary creationist model include

* theologian-philosopher John Haught of Georgetown University
* theologian Rev. Keith Ward, former Regius Professor of Divinity at the University of Oxford, author of God, Chance, and Necessity
* physicist Karl Giberson of Eastern Nazarene College, author of Worlds Apart: The Unholy War between Religion and Science, Species of Origins: America’s Search for a Creation Story, The Oracles of Science: Celebrity Scientists Versus God and Religion, and Saving Darwin.
* physicist and theologian Rev. John Polkinghorne of Cambridge University
* theologian-philosopher Thomas Jay Oord of Northwest Nazarene University (Oord is known in this context for his saying, "The Bible tells us how to find abundant life, not the details of how life became abundant.")
* Fr. George Coyne of the Vatican Observatory
* Eco-theologian Fr. Thomas Berry
* biochemist and theologian Alister McGrath, Professor of Historical Theology at the University of Oxford
* C. S. Lewis, scholar of medieval studies, novelist, and influential Anglican Christian thinker
* Ted Peters and Martinez Hewlett, authors of the book Can You Believe in God And Evolution?

I hate labels like when I was talking to my father I had to tell him I am an agnostic, instead of I do not bealive in your god becasue, then he would keep asking me well then what am you.

Good people will do things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things -- that takes belief. -- BlindMessiah

As I stressed earlier, any belief, religious or not, can make men do evil things.

Its sad casue people will always find an excuse ot do horible things. like someone could go kill an homeless man and say natural selection compelled him to do it.

Atheism is the natural state arrived at when allows logic, reason, ethics and evidence be their guide. It's a byproduct. It makes no claims so it needs no proofs.

well we just have to except as long as people have crazy ideas poping into thier heaad we can get ride of the plague called religon, its sad casue some athiest think that athiesim is a religous belif when its not

Atheism is the natural state arrived at when allows logic, reason, ethics and evidence be their guide. It's a byproduct. It makes no claims so it needs no proofs.

Atheism is the natural state arrived at when allows logic, reason, ethics and evidence be their guide. It's a byproduct. It makes no claims so it needs no proofs.

Columbine comes to mind. Kill the Christians to further evolution.

Speaking of labels. I'd like to bring up a point on labels. I often hear Christians say that atheists are so negative they feel the need to identify themselves in the negative. It's true, we do. However, the label is meaningless. It's a lot easier to say atheist, than, identify yourself with one of the many "denominations" which have a positive name. In addition, people such as myself, don't line up with every view of the many "denominations." So I simply use the label atheist. When asked what I am I could sit down for twenty-four hours and explain my views on philosophy, science, politics, crime, family... or I can say atheist.

i dont know where i fit in to this but is there anyone who really thinks its wrong? (i dont) but im wondering

What is that supposed to mean?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

People usually assume that "atheist" means you don't believe there is a Supreme Being. Do you believe in God or not?

The motivation behind the Columbine shooters was to further evolution. It shows that any belief, even atheism, can be used for evil.

well...is there anyone who thinks aithiests are wrong ?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

Over eighty percent of earth's population.

I do not agree with what Athiest believe but I think they have the right to believe as they see fit. It's no worse then believing a man walked on water or anything else.

QFT

The motivation behind the Columbine shooters was to further evolution. It shows that any belief, even atheism, can be used for evil.