Hadrian was a Roman leader who built walls to mark out the territories he had conquered. He built a wall between, what is now Scotland and England as a warning to the people of the north to stay on their side, or else. This shows how far the Roman Empire extended in present day England at that time. They did not go into Wales, either because it was not worth their while or they were stopped by the Welch--same with the southern part of Cornwall. Those places are where most of the origional people of present-day England ended up.

The Welch? Do you use terms like Hindoo and Musselman, too?

--Jaylemurph

Welch is just an anglicised spelling of Welsh. Also is there a point being made here ?

And?

Hadrian's Wall (well worth a visit of you get a chance) was indeed partly built to mark the northernmost extent of the Roman Empire, although Romanised allies such as the Votadinii (from whence 'King' Arthur may have come) lived beyond it.

The Romans did however take control of Wales - indeed, one of their most famous battles against the British occurred on Anglesey.

Welsh is an Anglian word meaning foreigner. It has never been spellt Welch.

If your really interested in this stuff why don't you do some research, where do you think the Romans finished off the Druids? Hadrians wall was to mark the northern boundary of the Roman empire it was political, there's no evidence of any conflict ever taking place at Hadrians wall, and rightly so the land further north was considered to barren to bother with.

I love the Welch, especially Raqual.

So the Royal Welch Fusiliers are just a fabrication ?

Welch is the archaic form of Welsh...has been used, look it up

Welch is indeed a more archaic form. Also the territory north of Hadrian's Wall was not always no-mans land for the Romans. The Antonine wall was built much further north.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_wall

Exactly. Archaic. It's rather like "Scotch"; it has social ramifications.

--Jaylemurph

By social ramifications what do you mean?

Seeing as how the op didn,t even make a point why are we even posting here
and i only did it to point out the feutility of the endevuor

There was one theory that Hadrian's Wall was the location of King Arthur's Camalot.

I'd never heard the term Welch used before. My dad is Welsh and uses only the word Welsh, but I'll ask him.

They don't exist now

http://www.theroyalwelsh.org.uk/1bn/

Okay, Welch may be an archaic spelling - but we don't all write like Shakespeare these days

I've never understood why the word still gets used though since it has a derogatory connotation. They're either British of Cymrii (Cymru) depending on your inclination.

I was conceived in Wales, btw )

There's a theory that 'Camalot' was actually Roxburgh, near Kelso

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa37...908/ai_n8871037

Moffat's book is well worth reading btw

A number of people have suggested that Arthur's final battle at Camlann actually took place at the Roman fort of Camboglanna on Hadrian's Wall

No it doesnt our government went and amalgamated many regiments into so called super regiments...the fools.

While there may be little or no evidence of violence along the wall, it doesnt mean it was successful as a barrier. There is plenty of evidence that the wall was breached a number of times, soft targets well behind the wall were attacked, and for a time the Romans (just before Septimius Severus) lost the whole frontier region to the natives. Hence the later appearance of the Emperor in Britain together with his hardest armies.
the whole system required an overhaul; and what resulted from those protracted and expensive campaigns into Caledonia and beyond, is learning that the best way to deal with them, is to pay them off.


Welch is an archaic form of welsh, but as far as i know it is not, like Scotch, frowned upon. Apparently it originates with the saxon word 'weals' meaning foreigner/slave. The welsh dont think of the word in these terms, proud of being 'welsh'...perhaps we appropriated the term, in the same way black people have taken ownership of the 'N' word....more likely it is through ignorance of the original meaning. Most folk with any political awareness, and those that speak welsh, prefer our own name for ourselves, Cymru. Strictly speaking the Cymru come from the area of the 'brigantes' (Cumbria) and settled in North Wales....perhaps bringing their ownership of Arthur with them, and transposing the myths onto a new landscape.

just a thought.

There is also an argument that one of the real figures behind the Arthur myth was Athrwys ap Meurig. Another has Arthur leaving Britain to continue his adventures and battles in Brittany (against the franks) as Arthmael.

I was rather hoping you'd say something, gremlin.

--Jaylemurph

As the actress said to the bishop...."Come again?"

You know, being actually Welsh. Or Welch. Or Cymru. And also since you can speak knowledgeably about the Roman Empire.

--Jaylemurph

you mean about op?

I forgot about that....thought i was in the 'arthur' thread...
Or you could say he formalized existing frontier systems with 'boundaries',
often a 'vallum' (bank and ditch defence) with a wall of some form. They had a similar effect as customs barriers. There were plenty of settlements north of the wall, intensive agriculture, and native population dependent on Roman Britain behind the wall. Some tribes had been split by the wall, with members on either sides.


Eh? Caerleon, (The city of the Legions) is in Wales. the Romans had a strong presence here. They met strong resistance by the Silures, Gaius Suetonius Paulinus was the general who swashbuckled his way through wales, and had the Druids holed up in Ynys Mon. He also had to deal with the Boudiccan Revolt.

South Wales fell in Britannia Superior, and later in Britannia Prima, there was gold mining amongst other industries here, and Roman forts all over the place.
As for Cornwall....Tin, big tin industry.

as for most of the original people of present day England, they pretty much stayed where they were...or so dna tests appear to show.

more what you had in mind J?

Where i come from the word "Welch" is used as a derogatory term for a person who doesn't forfeit on a bet, "To Welch"

Aye that's true. like the other 'celts' drinking and gambling and making silly bets was characteristic of the welsh 'going west' when liberated from the puritanical home society. And no doubt a few made some bets they had no intention of honouring. But i think that the accusatory tone of the term comes from a tradition of 'unreliability', of reneging on pledges, and switching loyalties. Something that was the cause of no end of frustration to English lords.

for example, i think it was the battle of bryn glas, Mortimer (an English lord) came unstuck against Rhys Gethin. Mortimer had some welsh bowmen on his side, and because he outnumbered the Welsh army he charged uphill. The welsh charged down hill to meet him, and the welsh bowmen opened up on his rear. Caught between them the English were slaughtered, and Mortimer was captured and switched sides. that's all 14th century stuff...

it is a long, and proud tradition.

so while i think 'to welch' originally meant 'to go back on one's word' or 'to renege on a pact' , it later found use in gambling terms. I think most 'colonials', as the Welsh, Irish, and Scots, remained to the English, were seen and referred to in derogatory ways.

I have no idea if this is actually true.

It's not true you know.

I don't live that far from you. i'm in the marches (Welsh-English border) i was talking to this old fellow at a dog show in mid wales (i'll tell you where if you want) the chat got around to local history, he pointed to a hill at the side of the flat field we were standing in (you probably know it, it's the only flat field in this part of wales ) he said that's the resting place of Owen Glendower don't ask me how he knew?

Er... why is this 'Alternative History'?

well it may not have ever been true for all, but there is plenty of evidence for such attitudes, my gran having to wear a big heavy plaquard when at primary school as punishment for speaking in welsh (her mother tongue) is relatively recent...so are the signs until recently in london shops and pubs..."no dogs, no blacks, no irish". There are hundreds of jibes towards the home 'colonials' that could be quoted here, and a number of laws that perhaps you'd be familiar with that to this day have not been removed...mostly from english boarder towns which state that any welshman discovered within town boundaries after midnight can legally be shot.
Admittedly this probably stemmed from the popular welsh pastime of cattle rustling....the other popular pastime "badger in a bag" was not nearly as fun.

The bryn glas story was true, give or take a few details; as is (i believe) the welsh stereotype of unreliability.

Most of the flat fields by me are taken up by rugby pitches, mild gradients are reserved for football (at my old school you could score easily from a goal kick!)
Id appreciate you telling me the name of the place, there are numerous candidates for that hallowed ground...and theories as to what happened after his 'disappearance', Ive even met a few folk claiming descent from him...including claims to true sovereignty over the land.
dont know what her Maj would make of it...

I hope im not comming across as some die hard nationalist with a chip on my shoulder, because i really am not. I find it funny that those who are rally behind Glyndwr's banner....as if he'd have given a toss! all he was interested in was land and power for himself.

His is a good story though, and would make as good a film as any robin hood or braveheart.

back on topic though, im sure you'll agree that Roman occupation is evident in wales, contrary to the OP. And that the wall was not as divisive as suggested, nor entirely successful as a defensive barrier...being only one part in a system. Perhaps it would be better regarded as a customs barrier.

Your post deserves a longer reply but i'm very tired at the mo, will write more tomorrow.

What nationality was the teacher who hung the placard around your grandmothers neck? (this has happened to nearly every Welsh person i've ever spoken to, by the age of some of them they must have been doing it up until 1999)

When you refer to "The English" do you mean the Government, who had many welsh, Irish and Scottish MP's, the UK even had a Welsh prime minister at the height of the Empire.

No blacks, dogs or Irish, this old chestnut is rolled out whenever someone is trying to find something derogatory to say about the English, it happened in a few boarding houses in London, if my memory serves me right was it 3 they found on the documentary? do you think this taints the whole of England?

Yes, the Romans where most definitely in Wales, very clever how they diverted streams to wash the hillsides away to find gold
"The sons of Owain Glyndwr (I like your way better) could have a thread of it's own.

nationality?...she was english i believe....but no doubt there was some uniform policy about this at the school, Ive also heard of other cases.

sorry im not sure i mentioned 'the english' at all. I did however; after a post dealing with negative colonial stereotypes and suppression, a battle with an english lord, owain glyndwr, wonky playing fields and hadrian's wall; try to highlight the fact that im not a bigotted nationalist (despite the subject matter), and regard such opinions as 'interesting'.
I enjoy the banter that comes with having friends of all the home nationalities (hell my girlfriend is 3rd irish 3rd welsh 3rd english). But we are not talking about banter, we are talking about colonial attitudes there...how the word welch came to mean 'renege on a deal', and 'fail to pay gambling debt'.


I was aware of lloyd-george, but who were the irish and scots pms?

I was not aware of that documentary you mentioned. but have always been under the impression it was common. Having said that my girlfriend's Irish nan ran a pub in london during the war, so either it wasnt really that bad or things were more relaxed by then.


England is great...
Some of my best friends are....English....



Edit: I clearly didnt scroll back enough because i blatantly did say this...



i was being loose here, but was talking about the past. Amongst 'irrationals' and the realms of comedy these attitudes survive.

Good question Sthenno. I've sat here reading everything, trying to figure that out for myself.

I'm not fussed if it's altrnative history or not. It's an interesting thread.

So archaic terms now mean a slur?
TY for the memo.
That must mean Chinaman is a no-no also.

Well even 'welsh' has a derogatory definition at least in American English dictionaries. And very good history lessons gremlin there is nothing better than hearing such from someone actually from the land and who partially has information not just from the books but passed on. South Texas is also a land of border conflict and we had our own signs not so long ago. My great, great uncle Charles was once hunting on the King Ranch and two Texas Rangers ran across him but instead of arresting him they began to fire. He shot one to death, went home told them what happened, and he left for Mexico. No one ever saw him again. Just to put it in perspective they forced or murdered people off the land to make what is still the biggest ranch in the US in what was then just Texas. When mothers wanted to scare children long ago they would tell them the Comancheros would get them if they acted bad, then it changed to the rincheros (rangers), now it is just the cucui (boogey man).

It is. And has been for some time.

--Jaylemurph

I said English because that's what i think you where alluding to, there's a collective amnesia at the moment by some of the home nation inhabitants, as if the colonies and empire building were nothing to do with them, Irish, Scottish Welsh and English MP's represented their countries in parliament, Dublin was the second city, there were many Irish, Scottish and welsh generals in the army.

"The black's Irish Dogs thing came from a documentary from the late fifty's early sixty's it only happened in London and then at just couple of properties but you know what the lefties are like.
England has always had very large numbers of Irish, they come here to work and generally always very welcome, what i'm going to say now could apply to any group of brits, during this period large gangs of Irishmen came over to build the motorways, what do large groups of men do when working away from home? yep drink that's why the sign said no Irish if it had been Irish women or familles there'd have been no problem.
I'm Anglo-Irish i spent a large part of my childhood on the south coast of Ireland, im married to an Irish woman not very PC but i refer to my kids as halfpats

I dont think there is any amnesia about everyone's part in Empire building, some are proud of the part they played....many probably. They are proud of the lives given and spent in service, etc. Many people at the same time can recognize the negative aspects of Empire.

i dont really see a conflict by the situation,



George and Henry disparage Bryn, Patrick, and James....who return the sentiment.
George and Henry, Bryn, Patrick, and James all disparage ....well everyone else really.

Sometimes we like them more because we've taken them over, sometimes less.

Its a 'Them' thing.

Thanks for putting me right about the shop/pub sign, wasnt aware of the doco, it must have become etched into urban myth.

lol 'Halfpats', like it.

I think for the same reasons that Hetrodoxly mentioned, not paying up gambling debts and going back on ones word. Again i think it stems from a willful unreliability on our part.

maybee....in some ways. Maybe we are just bad at gambling, and too stupid to understand that betting the house and the horse n cart is a bad idea; my great grandad lost his horse and cart in a game of cards at Carmarthen in Wales.
We come from the sort of family that used to build chapels down mines so gambling wasnt really popular but Jack Jones used to fish in the llwchwr river with dynamite...The villagers would know from the BOOMS that he had a day off.
My grandad was sent by his mum to fetch Jack from the pub in Carmarthen where he must have tarried on the way home, he was 9, so he proudly drove the cart to town only to be told that he'd be walking home.
now either Jack was crap at cards...or he was veeerrrryyy unlucky.

My knowledge of Texas and its history is appalling really, what i know comes from spaghetti westerns and various random sources; and that is a great story about Charles,
And that ranch, had to google it, you could probably fit about four UK's in there its bloody huge.

almost inconceivable.

My dad's Welsh too-- from Ffestiniog. His take on the word "welch", which is used in America to mean "rip off", is that it's a variation of "Welsh" that derives from a fear and distrust of Gaelic culture. Of course, he's got a maniacally patriotic attitude towards this subject, so his attitude is horrifically biased.