I was recently reading the thread about God favoring man over Angels. There were a few replies that it was stated that the Bible says, GEN 1:27 NIV "God made man in his image." It says that in many other versions of the Bible including the NKJV. Then as I was picking up another bible a KJV and opened it up to GEN 1:26 and it says. "And God said let us make man in our image,"
In a monotheistic view man was created after other creatures and we worship one God. So who is "our?" Are we assuming that theres someone else there with him? So then we assume they are Angels our we can. If we go with this then can we assume that God and the Angels are similar at least in appearance? Can we also assume that Humans, Angels and God all look similar? Or can we guess that God may have a Goddess? I'm curious as to the EXACT translation of Genesis as it is (not lost in translation) in the Torah? Does anyone know, and can they translate theese passages differently?

I learned that when God said, "Let Us make man in Our own image." He was referring to Himself, His Son and the Holy Ghost. The three but one. Our is the trinity.

I wouldn't dwell on it too much. There is no true translation of the Bible. Considering that the book itself is very metphorical, attempting to translate the words and meanings between languages is virtually impossible.

I do believe the "His" assignment is part of the culture more than anything, if there is a deity. The people involved in the making of the Bible were an EXTREMELY patriarchal society.

There are several stories. Like any book, the interpretation of the Bible reflects its readers' interests and concerns, which change over time.

When the Trinity was systematized (a late development: the "Nicene" creed went out with little comment on a third person, and was amended a few decades later to include the familiar-to-us Holy Spirit dogma, which needed further work before a consensus could be claimed among Christians who had more readily agreed to the rest of the creed), Genesis's Elohim (plural) became a reference to the Trinity.

Before that, there was a conception that God was talking to a council of angels.

And for the writers? I like the story where Elohim reflected a compromise between cosmopolitan Jews of the north and desert dwelling southern Jews, at the time when their stories were compiled into a single definitive text.

For the northerners, the national God was sort-of "chairman of the board" and designated spokesgod for all the gods, including the gods of neighboring peoples. The southerners didn't care so much about the neighbors. Compromises were made in the interest of making a joint statement of the national religion.

Then again, it may only be stylistic, a divine we, just as there is an editorial we, a royal we, and a papal we. Rank hath its privileges.

In any case, discussions of how Elohim has been and ought to have been translated are all over the web. It is a searchable term.

Very succinct:


In HIS image. My interest and concern is that HE made us creators, like HIM. We have the potential to create with our minds and intellect.

I believe you are correct lmbeharry. It is also what I like to consider one of the aspects of being made in the image of God. Other animals who cannot create, beavers consturcting dams, birds building nests, and spiders weaving webs, do not count because they are simply patterned behavior and not true thought construction. Humans though have an infinite number of possibilities, creating new inventions by hands, works of art using both hand and mind, and also creating purely from the mind intangibilities.

We can expound on that and to paraphrase Deepak Chopra, I hope someone can correct me if I have the order wrong or skipped a part, but thoughts create desire, desire creates potential, potential creates action, and action creates reality. Thus from a single though we can create our own reality. Our happiness, our success, our relationships, and even the realization of our dreams.

As always, your prose brings it home...

According to the Bible, creatures called seraphim were the closesest associates of Yahweh. The Jewish encyclopedia and numerous scholars confirm that this word means "fiery, flying serpents/reptiles." And the ancient Jews confirm this too, leaving nothing to doubt. We know this becasue when the Jews translated their scriptures into Greek, 'seraphim' was translated to Drakon.

of course, virtually every human religion has mention of such creatures, as Gods, or like in the Bible, assistants to a God. These ancient beings are undoubtedly the "we" referred to in the Bible, creatures that existed long before man, and in the myths and religins of every human culture.

The Bible does not claim the Seraphim were the highest order that I know of. That ranking of angels is not biblical that I know of. That was a practice that began in the middle ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy

The reason it says in our immage, is because Father has a Wife, She is the Holy spirit, Our Mothjer, and we are all sons and daughters Of God the fatherand Mother, Making everyone of us a Part of the trinity..

If any one of you say you love God unconditionally, you put the power of the trinity in to action.

Even if one doesnot know that God consists of Father and Mother , or that you are a son or daughter of the most high.

It was set up this way, one need not know the dynamics to make the power work.

The tie that binds spirit To mortal is love.

That is the power of the trinity.

Love Omnaka

This is naturally assumed because they are the creatures closest to God in the Old Testament. Yahweh himself may be one of these creatures as well, since he ordered moses to make an idol of the winged serpent/dragon, which was worshipped by the Israelites for centuries. Then there are accouns of his spewing fire from his mouth, possessing great wings, demanding calves and lambs, etc.

DC, don't derail the thread with talk about dragons. Save that for the cryptozoology threads.

Clovis, i think you have hit one nail in the trinity fairly on the head. We resemble god in our creativity.

However a second element of the trinity by which we resemble god is in our physical construction. We are comprised of the elements of the universe PLUS a spark of life, PLUS, a self aware sentience.

So is god. It is just that the elements of his construction are assembled a little differently from us (most of the time)

The third element is our emotional/spiritual/philosophical makeup. This is found both in god and in humans in a very similar form.(some people argue that this is just because we created god in our own image.)

My belief is that we are similar because we have in common two very important things. Our sentient self awareness and our ability to make freely informed choices.

Thus we resemble god in this third element because we cannot fail to be similar, because all beings, god, human or other, who have sentient self awareness and its commitant result, free choice, must develop similar emotional/ spiritual/philosophical characteristics as part of their nature or evolution/creation.

I"m not saying they will have the same emotions or philosophies, but they will all lhave/develop emotional/spiritual and philosophical functionality (or they could not be as they are)ie a human can not be human without these things, and a god cannot be god, without them.

Our spirit was created Eternal,, by eternal spirit, Just like father and Mother's (God's).
It takes one to create one.

True life is eternal.(Spirit)

This temporal life is just that, Short lived in the grand sceme of infinate spirit.

Love Omnaka

None of us where there, none of us can verify WHAT God said, or to whom he said it. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

God #1 - there.....(looks at watch) 7 days and done!!

God #2 - Breaktime!

My spirit was there, and it does not matter if you believe me.

This is my last incarnation on this world, again it does not matter if you believe me.

Name calling can not change who Iam to God Father and Mother or you.

Iam that Iam, Unbelief will not make me that Iam not, nor will calling anyone "Liar".

Love Omnaka

That's not the question here. The question is what the Bible really says....


I've heard this before. Though it is only by those ignorant of what the Bible says. Usually propagated by King James-onlians....


This has been confused among Christins for a long time. One can belive in the 'Trinity' if they want to. However, this passage is not about that. The word for "God" in this passage is "אלהים"; Elohim.(and all of the begining of Genesis, until the Gn 2.4, when the creation of mankind passage begins[more to this later if interested])

This word, whose root is the same as "Allah", is the most common word used for "God". It is, however, plural. This does not mean that it is not refering to one God. Though one could argue it. The word is used a few times in Scripture for "gods", "judges", and "mighty ones". However, in the most often used case, this is a plural word, with a singular meaning. This is very common in Hebrew. "מים"; mayim "Water", for instance is a plural word, yet with a singular meaning. "שׁמים"; shamayim-heaven, or heavans, is plural. But usually just means "sky".

The confusion for some, comes with that fact that one must pluralize any following adjectives, pronouns, etc. which correspond to this word in the plural form, though it be singular. Such as the word "life" (חיים-hayim) in Hebrew. A plural word. Good, and adjective "טוב" tov. So "a good life" is rendered "חיים טובים"-hayim tovim. If you didn't understand Hebrew grammar, but just read it literally with an English understanding, it would look like "lives goods" or "good lives". But they would be incorrect.

So yes. Short answer. A correct translation of Gen 1.26 would be: "And God said: 'let me make (or I will make) mankind in my image(or likeness), as my own likeness,'"

It's also significant that the word "man" is not used here, but "mankind".

It is also interesting to point out the following verse says "Gen1.27 and God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God created he him(or it); male and female he created them."

He made mankind male and female it says. Not just "Adam". The Jews do not belive in "Adam and Eve". The names mean: Adam=mankind, Eve=life. SO the passage that says "and then Adam knew his wife Eve", in Hebrew says "and then mankind knew life".

(Disclaimer: I am fluent in Hebrew )

I won't say that I am envious. I will say that I am impatient to gain some free and low-stress time to begin my studies of Hebrew...

Would this be similar to the royal WE, as when Queen Elizabeth I (16th Century) might say: WE are not amused...

I will say that I am envious. I wish I knew Hebrew. Thanks for the word study. It always feels like there is some special magic in the words of Hebrew that is lacking in English. Maybe the purity?

It is interesting the thought that Adam and Eve are not considered as individuals. I always knew that Adam meant man but I have also heard it means ruddy-man. Is that true?

Also if Adam was plural why would he later be given a lifespan in the genealogy? I do see that it also says God called 'their' name Adam. A side note as well is that Adam was first made before God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils. Was that literal life or the soul? In other words did Adam/man/mankind exist before as a creature before being given a sentience?

lol I always like when she says that. But if it was used in reference to her claiming divinity I would be mildly annoyed next time I ever hear it.

Adam, from Adamah (man of the red clay = man with a ruddy-hued complexion.

Divine Right of Kings (and Queens) to rule in the place of God on earth...

I know people who talk like that! It's so annoying! As if it makes it seem they are not alone in their opinions

Seriously I've heard this explanation by many experts. However, I honestly never studied European Royal practices, and cannot comment on that aspect. However, I would disagree with the idea. As the grammar in Hebrew dictates the plural. I would say that it is simply grammar. Nothing more implied....


Hebrew is one of the easiest languages. If you are interested, go for it.

I'll go for it. Right now I am unemployed in Mongolia, looking for a professorship in United Arab Emirates (business school). So I am stressed about not working now, stressed about not producing income to feed my family, and stressed about finding the right job where I can grow for three to five years. So, I can't really relax to pick up Hebrew texts at the moment. But I will, soon enough.
BTW, I am so glad that I found this discussion site. It had been a long time since I had been able to communicate with intelligent "peers." I had been talking to myself for the better part of the past eighteen months or so. My wife is bright, but her English vocabulary is not yet up to snuff. And my Mongolian is worse. This board has allowed me to express myself, and learn a good bit as well.

Yep, I have been learning heaps.

People who know me have heard some very unique things about my personal life come out of my mouth. But I think you may have me beat

Mongolia?

Anyhow, good luck. And glad you can enjoy (virtually) meeting here.

If you are fluent in Biblical history as well, you would know that El or Elohim, and Yahweh are two, completely different entities with two completely different creation stories. The second story was added much later by the Yahwehist priests to honor this "new" god. In the older Cananite inscriptions we find a high god El, who has 70 "sons" who are the tribal gods, including Yahweh who is the tribal god of the Hebrews. This is why there is so much animostiy between Yahweh and Ba'al Haddad in the Bible, they were also bitter enemies in canannite theology. Oh, and Yahweh , known as yam or yaw in the cannanite theology, was some kind of serpent or dragon god, as as he seems to be in the Bible, with his brazen serpent idol and Seraphim-serpent assistants.

But this does not contradict Genesis because it is El and not Yahweh who makes this statement. So to keep this on post on Topic, man is made in the image of El, and not Yahweh.

Hmmm....... I'm not sure if a lot of this is accurate.....

"Elohim". Not "El"

.

Elohim is not the same as El. Yahweh or YHWH is the unspoken name for God. It can get confusing because the associated cultures share the same words and concepts at times but that does not mean they are talking about the same thing or that the Israelite ever took their name from a pagan deity even if pagan deities shared the same names. Clearly one can get confused in the difference between God and gods though. God with a capital 'G' is one of the names of God for me. God with a capital 'G' is also my god. I also have used a few names for God while in prayer or praise: God, Jesus, and Jehova-jireh. I frequently use Alleluia and Halleluyah in praise which means 'let us praise Yah' and is considered the highest word of praise for me and others. I have heard others use the name El Espiritu Santo (which just means The Holy Spirit), Jesu Cristo (sounds like heh-sue-cree-stow), and Yehova quite often while growing up. In songs I have used Adonai, El Shaddai, Jehova-nissi, etc...

other names we use

names of God in Judaism

I would be interested in knowing what exactly it is you are talking about when you refer to the word "image" in your examples...

Since the actual word doesn't appear the the Hebrew text but rather in the translations of the same.

The actual meaning is actually "likeness" but that is not the same as "image", there is a subtle but very important difference in these two different terminologies.

Also, as far as the "our" that is being referred to in the quoted verse, it is clear that it is referring to the "Elohim" the gods that make up Yawehs Heavenly Council, today they are simple refferred to generally as "Angels" but that is an erroneous concept and not actually true to contextual interpretation of scripture.

We cannot take this passage to be a reference to the Trinity nor as the "Royal We" that has been mentioned so many times in this and other boards.

Kindly,

Jor-el

Hebrew words cannot be defined properly withg one word in English. There are two Hebrew words used in this same sentance that are in question. Both are very similar. One "בצלמנו"- "in our(or my) image" (anyone ever watch Battle Angel Alita?), means: "image", "likeness", "resemblance". It is interesting that it is also related to pagan idols, and statues, as it is related the verb "to cut out".

The second word is "כדמותנו"- "as our likeness", means: "likeness", but is interestingly rooted in the word "blood".


Well, I don't see how that is "clear"

I concur both statements.

Clovis you can't possibly think that creation has one expression, the human mammal is not superior like its popularly thought.. if anything our feathered friends and four legged freinds are far more civilized then we are....lol

We as humans could take a lesson..imo...

Exactly SS! Bees can function better as a community than we can. We really shouldn't consider animals to be our "lessers", because in all honesty, they aren't. And who are we to say that animals don't have a consciousness? Maybe they just express it in a way we cannot understand. If a wolf had no conscience, then why are there documented reports of wolves caring for abandoned human children? That requires conscious thought in my opinion, because carnivores kill what they when they can in order to survive, and an abandoned baby is obviously an easy meal. I think there is much more to animal consciousness than meets the eye, or that most of us are willing to accept.

not to mention all of nature contributes to this living system we call home, they somehow know their part and do it no guidance, no education, no reminders, no chore list .....

the gravest mistake man has made is insisting he is superior because he can rub a few dendrites together, yet in the scheme of things without nature we would not make it as it is we have managed to mess that up to with our ignorance.. the problem is we think we know when we don't...our arrogance is killing us..........

i use my life to care about and for nature and all the creatures and in the process i learn things along the way, i have so much to learn....

I used to admire ants colonies as models of the perfect communist communes. I realized eventually that our free will not only makes us superior but that it leads to social competition which will always stratify societies inequitably, especially when it comes to fairness, but that also we can just stomp on them as well as every other animal, that is we can master them as we have and they cannot do the same to us in return.

What free will ????

My second point still stands if you refuse to believe in free will. We can master every creature even if it simply means capturing them while they cannot do the same to us. That adds credence to God giving mankind authority over other animals. Either that or ancient man simply recognized humans are indeed superior and then snuck it into the book lol

Well, there was a report of Bigfoot kidnapping a man. Does that mean Bigfoot is better than us? No. Just because we can bend another creature's well by force doesn't mean we're better than them. It just makes us more cruel. Humans have always thought that they were better than other animals, when this simply isn't true. Force does not equate being "better".

You must know that the early books of the OT acknowledge multiple gods, but only the tribal god of the Hebrews, Yahweh was the only one the Hebrews were to worship. It is only much later that the other gods were declared false.

El of the Cannanites and Hebrews was the same god, and the Hebrews acknowledged the other Cannanite gods were real, only less powerful than there's. There are many scholarly papers that show this to be so. I do not know why Jews or Christians of today should want to deny the fact that other cultures believed in their same gods. We now know through archaeology that even some of the Psalms were originally Canannite hymns. The Goddesss Asheroth was honored as Yahweh's consort by the Hebrews, and both Yahweh and Ba'al Haddad vied over her in Cannanite stories, and this is carried over in the Bible. The cannanite stories also associate Yahweh (Yam/Yaw) as a weather controlling serpent-dragon diety, and in the Hebrew scrioptures we see Yahweh ordering a serpent idol, and that his chief assistants are "fiery flying serpents" (seraphim) used to punish those he is angry with (Such as the complaining Israelites in the book of Numbers, and probably the destroyers in the first born of Egypt account.

If truth be told, ancient man DID NOT think they were superior to all animals. Every human culture acknowledged mighty reptiles we now call dragons that were often acknowledged as gods, or assistants to gods as we see in the Bible with the Seraphim. The book of Job declares that a fire breathing reptile called the Leviathan was invincable to all but the God who created and controlled it. The Bible clearly states man does not have dominion over these creatures, but perhaps these are not considered natural creatures but heavenly creatures.

I personally have a different approach to the subject which still remains faithful to the grammatical exigences of the Hebrew text.

The image of God is not a thing put into us by God that makes us unique, but rather it's something we do. It's not a quality; it's a function. We don't possess God's image; we image God. One's a noun, whereas the other is a verb."

My view is based on a point of Hebrew grammar, specifically regarding the prepostion "in" within the context of the phrase "In the image of God"

The preposition in English is actually a single letter in Hebrew, the letter beth, which is equivalent to our letter "b." The question for the translator, of course, is how to translate this letter, or preposition, in the context of the verse. Typically, this letter, when attached to a noun, as
in this case, may be translated "in". I wonder if you've ever really thought about what the word "in" means?

It's actually an important question."

The word could denote location, as in the sentence "put the dishes in the sink". It could also refer to the means by which something is done, as with the phrase "written in pencil."

Other alternatives are inclusion in a group "I want membership in the club" or a result "he broke the statue in pieces". The word has a variety of values."

There's a special use of the preposition beth that many Hebrew scholars believe is the point of the author in Genesis 1:26-27, the meaning of "functioning in the capacity of".

Hebrew grammarians call it the beth of predication. But rather than use all the words "in the capacity of ," English usually uses the word "as" for this meaning. For example, the sentence "I served as the chairman" really means, "I served in the capacity of the chairman".

Now take that meaning of the beth preposition back to Genesis 1:26-27, and look what you get: And God said, "let us make man as, or in the capacity of our image".

Once you do this, the verse means "That people were created to function in the capacity of God. We're here in the place of God and that interpretation is backed up by what the same verses say humans were supposed to do once created:

"and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground".

Human beings were created to be the rulers of God's creation; they were to be God's managers or substitutes. No other creature was given this privilege of rulership, not even the angelic beings, even though Psalm 8:5 says they are superior to us, presumably in powers and abilities. "Imaging God" is really what is meant by the Old Testament idea of the image. We have the ightful rule over the planet, no other entity does, and if you're human, you inherit this status. It doesn't matter whether we speak of the fetus, a mentally incapacitated person, or an individual that is apparently whole, if you're human, you bear the status of God's stand-in on earth. Humanness and the image are by definition inseparable."



See: Is the Idea of Intelligent Extraterrestrial Life Compatible with Conservative Judaism



It is quite clear that what is being mentioned here by the use of the word "OUR" that God is refering to the The Divine Council. The very same Divine Council that is mentioned in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 and Psalm 82. Naturally, since Genesis is not to be taken out of the context of the rest of the Holy Books, it should be immediately apparent that the "OUR" in Genesis 1:26 is a reference to that same Divine Council.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

9 For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

Psalm 82

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods":

2 "How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

From what I remember of my studies on the matter of the ancient Semitic Gods, the Hebrews never said that they were false Gods, they simply stated that all of these other Gods served Yahweh, That is where the phrases like "The Most High God", "Lord of Lords and King of Kings" among many others comes from.

Hebrews only had One True God but there were many episodes when they turned to pagan worship. It is also likely some remained faithful to Yahweh while others might have turned to the Canaanite deities at different times. It might be easy to confuse all this but the followers of Yahweh would never accept impurity in that worship. Because of that it was preserved through all those periods even when they were carried away into captivity by the Babylonians.

There are scholarly papers that that suggest both of those verses refer to El being the high god and that Yahweh is the tribal God of the Hebrews. "Yahweh stands in the court of El with the other sons of god". This is why there are two different creation stoires in genesis. El's creation (realistic, conforming with evolution),and Yahweh creation added later (fantastic, man is the first thing created).

As you must know, the Cannanites recognized this IDENTICAL heavenly court of El, and that El's favorite of the Sons of God was the storm dragon Yam, or Yaw, who will become the Hebrew Yahweh.

El and Yahweh do not seem to be melded together as one god until the return from Babylon and the Zoroastrian influences this caused.

Actually the Hebrew religion is not as clear cut on this issue as we think, the hebrews accepted the existence of other Gods, but refused to worship them. They also accepted that these other Gods were part of a divine Council presided be Yahweh or El. So it is also accepted that they themselves interpreted the other Gods to be underlings of El.

All the Gods were called "elohim" ,Yaweh was part of the elohim in that they were all classified as spiritual beings, but Yahweh / El stood apart from the other elohim in that he was also their creator as well as head of the heavenly council.

DC, do me a favor... go and get a digital copy of the bible.... I currently have on hand the following versions of the bible, Digital and search ready:
KJV, NKJV, NLD, NIV, ESV, RVR, NASB, RSV, ASV, YNG, DBY, WEB, HNV, and VUL.

Now, heres the kicker... the name Yahweh, Yam, Yaw, El, Elohim... are not mentioned in any of these versions. Also, upon a second search, NO WHERE in Exodus was Moses told to contruct or craft a "Winged Drakon" So that it could be worshiped.... Start stating your "Sources"

Can i start a petition to have DC removed? Im sure most of us are tired of hearing his bs spread around.

D.C., Are you per chance calling 99% of Semitic researchers liars or idiots?

Most if not all of them, except for your source which you devotedly rely on, equate Yahweh with El among a few more names. They are in effect the same being.

But I don't intend getting into another argument with you on this subject, we've had ours remember, we came to the conclusion that we aren't going to change each others mind on the subject.

Good luck on your quest for the truth...

Actually, most of those you mentioned except for Yam, if I'm not mistaken are mentioned many times in the bible, They are simply translated as God, Lord or some other term we are more used to...