It hardly matters. We see supernatural reptilian deities in Judaism from Genesis to the 1st century AD Apochrypha. It was always part of ancient Judaic theology.

of course it is airtight. How could anyone dispute this, given all the proof?

Thats your problem right there.

It is critical to understanding his 'visions'.

Understanding your source is very important, and goes way beyond taking what they say at face value.

Comprehension of a source includes critical analysis...and this involves considering its context.

That you say it hardly matters doesnt surprise me in the slightest.

Where are these dragons now? Can they fly in space? If so, this means that they don't require oxygen, which wouldn't make sense seeing as fire can only burn in oxygen rich environments.

This being said, they must be native to the earth, having the ability to breath our atmosphere.

Are they fully conscious people like ourselves (except they're dragons) who can talk, laugh, paint, draw, create etc? Or are they animals who act like 'guard dogs' or sorts?

Have you been able to track down a dragon?

Do they have names and if so, who named them?

The legends of dragons (in medieval times) would seem to reflect that they are 'extinct', having been hunted by knights. Is this possible?

-Josh

May I ask where these stories come from? What "ORIGINAL" Eden story do you mean?

Ha, ha, ha!!!!

I doubt they are capable of anything that 'defies natural laws', but their ability to fly does suggest they are being helped with psychic ability, that might be perfected in intelligent creatures that could be millions of years old.

Based on various accounts they seem to talk, but there is no references to them creating anytlhing. As I have said before, their intelligence is unnatural, in a way you could equate them with bieing 'organic robots' given a certain program, developed by an intelligent creator entity. But they do think, some are prideful, some seem cruel by our standards. Their names are the ones their worshippers gave them or gave themsleves in that language, but when they moved on, they took names familiar to the next group of people.

The idea of such creatures being killed by "knights" is ridiculous. A knight just killing a T-Rex is ridiculous, let alone an intelligent flying one. This is human arrogance and conceit at its greatest, but today are weapons could kill one, which is why they are now in hiding. They are the sea serpents and lake monsters seen with regularity all over the world, but never 'caught' or proven to be anything else, because they are intelligent creatures fully capable of outwitting us, for the scientists chasing them have no idea of what they are dealing with. If any dragon had been killed by man (and I don't see how before modern weapons), its hide and bones would have been treasured trophies and preserved in church collections, just as 'fake' and fossil 'dragon' remains were, and still are.

Most scholar state that the Genesis stories originated in Sumeria, and even the Bible says that is where Abraham came from. Some say the Hebrews deliberately changed the stories, suggesting they never believed them at all. I am a bit more generous. For centuries they were nomadic illiterate shepherds and repeated these stories as an oral tradition, and over time, some things changed. But in all accounts, the local, tribal, city state gods, including Yahweh appear to be creatures we would now call 'dragons', though they are subservient to a greater entity that is not a dragon. A true, universally believed in deity that seems to have modiefied the 'dragons' from a life form millions of years earlier to serve as 'shepherds' to early man, insuring their survival. This was their prupose.

Perhaps you can explain DC why legends of sea monsters and lake monsters exist before the advent of firearms, as you point out, they'd have had no reason to hide in fear from piddly humanses with their little lances etc.

As you claim about such lake serpents in North America DC, the society was primitive and tribal....similar conditions to those of the middle east before these dragons brought their wards civilisation....
...so why did these north american dragons hide in lakes? why did they not either predate on the humans, punish them (like they did the Germans), or teach them civilization?

it appears to make no sense.

would they not have been jealous of their Eurasian counterparts, being fed virgins and treated as gods?

No D.C., serpents and Dragons do not surround the Throne of God, Seraphim and Cherubim do, and they are not Serpents and Dragons or anything like them. Otherwise the Scriptures, instead of stating Seraphim and Cherubim would state Nachashim and Tannynim. Probably spelt wrong but you get the idea. It seems that there is a clear difference between all those words, they are not synonomous.

I don't dismiss anything, D.C. I'm quite open to what 1Enoch says, it simply doesn't say what you want it to say. Go to any text in 1Enoch and search the word Dragon and it simply doesn't appear. Serpent appears three times in the whole text, not once in connection with supernatural beings.

As for the Egyptian "Seref" it is a composite being much like the Seraphim portrayed in Isaiah and in Revelation. They are not purely one thing, which you insist on. To you they are Dragons, ie; huge lizard like creatues with wings and can belch fire on demand. This is not portrayed in any religious writings. They are a figment of medieval imagination and bear absolutely no resemblance to the portrayal of Seraphim in Hebrew artwork, which usually portrys the composite nature of these beings.

My particular exception to your ideas does not even lie in this area, it is that you insist in portraying Yahweh as a Dragon or Seraph, which he most assuredly is not. Whether we call him El or Yahweh or Adonai or any other name, only one being is being referred to, The Creator of the universe, eternal, evelasting.

The text does not say "Gabriel presides over the Cherubim and Drakons." It says "Gabriel, one of the holy 8 angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim."

Serpents, simple word, meaning snake. We may even translate it to Seraphim, but we cannote say Dragons under any circumstances. If we did do that we would be creatively translating a passage from the original and that we can't do.

You still don't get it. Just strike out the word dragon if you don't like it. We know what the Egyptian Serrif looks like, for the hieroglyph survivies. It has four legs, wings a probably snake like head and a tail. They are a heaven guards and a throne guards. And despite the wings and legs they are still called SERPENTS in their hymns.

Now go the other direction, to Sumeria, and we see EXACTLY the same thing. Mushushu who look almost identical to the Egyptian Serrifs are also heaven guards and throne gurards and their name means furious SERPENT. And what to do have in Isaiah? Creatures called serpents, that also have arms and legs and wings EXACTLY like the throne and heaven guardians to their east and west.

And his the names are paritally synomymous. The Hebrews originally did not class the "domesticated/controlled" flying, legged serpents (seraphim) with those they saw in the desert. But by the time of Solomon it was understood they were the same. Yahweh tells Moses to "Make thee a Seraph". And later the seraph IDOL is called the Nahesha (serpent) TAN (dragon). Thus serpent dragon, a winged footed monster known by the same name in Sumeirian where Abraham came from. ALL the ancient evidence point to this. And when the word dragon was known to the Jews, then we see dragons in heaven in works such as the Apocolypse of baruch, and winged dragons with arms sawing blocks of stone to build Solomon's temple. Did a dragon really do that? It doen't matter, the point is that the ancient jews and christians acknowledged 'dragons' as heavenly creatures, and knew these were notmere legless snakes.

It makes perfect sense. The native american legends state they were flying creatures, and some were "evil" preying on humans. The French missionaries stated the natives refused to enter thier territory (see piasa legend), and one original account spoke of the creature siding with one tribe and carrying off the chief of the enemy to achieve victory. The freewheeling activitities of the dragons in America cease when europeans arrive, for like in the old world, the dragons seem to have been required to hide. Being shot at was secondary, but explains why certain deprdations ceased as this time.

Why were they sent away? The Creator knew that mankind would begin to question the old religions, and the age of reason was born. We are still in the age of reason. If an intelligent dragon were discovered now, it would prove there is a God, and everything in the world would change. The real creator does not want worship, or his dragons would still have us in stone age flocks. They served a valuable purpose once, but now their time is over. As perfect biological 'machines' they continue to live one, which is why we still see them. But our own "reason" now causes us to disbelieve what we actually see.

we know what the seref hieroglyph once looked like.....would be more accurate.
sculptures and later depictions of the seref look different to this....it indicates that the concept evolved.
it does not mean that such a creature was ever witnessed.

besides which the glyph looks like an introduced one, from another culture.

can you provide a date and context for it? Are there any other examples of it ... or just one?

The Pyramid text hymns are very old, from the time of the pyramids. This seems to indicate that the Egyptians named the seraph and not the Hebrews. However, if we accept the Judaic God, and his creature servants are real, then they may know creature by its Hebraic-Canaanite name. This is not unlike people nowadays universally applying the name 'dragon' to such creatures, based on the greek word Drakon.

I agree it looks like the Mushushu. Isn't it interesting we see this same creature from Egypt to China...... and in America.

what you mean is, you dont know.

...from the time of the pyramids...duh! Really, ya think?
i asked if you could apply a date, and if you knew where it was found, and if there are any others.

you answered none of these questions adequately....why?

So your saying that the decimation of the native american tribes was a divinely sanctioned thing? that El...that Creator god who left dragons in charge while he tinkered with the rest of the universe called off his guard dogs when the white man came with civilisation and diseased blankets?
THat these dragons abandoned the tribes they protected and in some cases preyed upon.....to go and live in ponds?

what gives you the impression they were 'required' to hide? Im hesitant to use the word, but are you trying to 'rationalise' something to get yourself out of a logical flaw in your argument?
How do you know what 'the Creator' wants and plans? has He ever told you?

if we are now so cynical we are less likely to worship a creator god now than any other time in history, and if he does not want our worship....are we not capable of controlling ourselves....to be honest he might have a few difficult questions to answer himself if all this were true.

in short...your post is all wild fancy. and has no real substance. and does not adequately answer my initial post.
bad show.

The dragons could have acted the same way in Mesopotamia...but you say they brought man civilisation there, and in china...with great advances in technologies that we were incapable of developing on our own....why did they not do the same for the native americans long before the white devils came?
why did they not foster in them an age of reason? were they not capable? were they as objectionable as the Germans?

You are simply picking and choosing Grem. It all makes perfect sense if you look at the big picture.
Actually we do see remarkable similarities between the wise, rain bringing, beneficient dragons of Eurasia and the 'flying/feathered serpents of the Western Hemispheres ADVANCED cultures. We actually have records of a probable 'dragon' Quetzalcoatl imploring them to stop human sacrifices. Maybe these people were incapable of attaining a 'humane' humanity. Maybe the first unsuccesful attempt was the Maya, whose civilization 'disappeared' under mysterious circumstances? A Chapter about this is precise subject address this. But it would seem that the more primitive peoples (who are more likely to have evil dragon legends both East and West), apparently were not "adopted" by a dragon, and this is why they are more primitive, and usually fear, instead of worship the dragons.

The areas where dragons were feared were probably 'free feeding zones' with no dragon protector, that might explain why Germans (and some native americans) remained so incredibily primitive compared to cvilized cultures that acknowledged dragon gods, and credited them with their civilizing influences. It all makes remarkable sense.

It is probable that the dragons were really no more beneificent than a human, sheep eating shepherd is towards his own flock. But the 'sheep' never realized this. If a dragon's 'human sheep' were prolific and rich, he would eat well accordingly, basic requirements of any organism. The creator would have understood this, of course, but it did not hamper the success of the program. In fact, it gave the dragons more genuine motivation than any 'lofty' ideals that would be wasted on giant reptilian predators.

Of course the dragons had to eventually hide. Would mankind be in the space age now, if had always been known that a creator entity engineered dragons to insure the survival of the human race, and that for centuries we were little more than a dragon's flock of sheep? No, the dragons were neccessary, but that part of human history was supposed to be forgotten. The dragons did there job well, and the majority of mankind is unaware of why they were such a prevalent part of human culture, all over the world, from the stoneage until this very day.

So what you are saying is that the Germans and the Native Americans from North America were incapable of living in a Humane society...and that the 'experiment' failed with the Maya......but the Aztecs were?
Tell me, how much do you know about Aztec culture?
I have never heard their Empire considered Humane before.

I dont believe your interpolation matches what we know.

Getting back to the Seref though, any closer to finding out the date and context of that hieroglyph? Any other examples?
Taking another look at it it appears to look more like a gryphon than a mushushu....the head is decidedly raptor like, ending in what looks like a pointy raptor's beak.



What i also find interesting, is that Sayce who copied the glyphs clearly labels it a Mythological Creature.
Furthermore it appears that the 'reader' of the depiction has to be told what it is....to the left of the creature we have the letters S - R - F (vowels not always included in Hieroglyphs) The quadrupedal creature is therefore there either to elucidate further the context of SRF (ie...we mean this type rather than the other/s) or to educate (this is what we mean by SRF). Both suggest that the reader would have been expected to be sufficiently unfamiliar with the concept. Does this suggest that the concept was imported?

I never claimed the aztecs were humane, though there are accounts that Queztalcoat disapproved of human sacrifice. Generally speaking, the civilizing effects of dragon domestication created the humane condiiton. Laws were required for people to live together, and fairly divide farmland, grazing land, etc. The Mesoamerican sacrifices like thos in asia were literally to feed their dragon gods. When the dragons left the sacrifices were still made, as the Jews would do until the temple was destroyed.

Consider the fact that the Mesoamericans did not have the large domestic animals that the Eurasian had to feed their dragon gods. It would be hard to feed a dragon meals of hundreds of ducks and tiny dogs, when you could feed them your captured war prisoners instead. So in a way the Aztecs may have been quite humane in that their wars provided enough prisoners to feed their gods that they did not have to force their own people to be sacrificed.
The French missionaries wrote that the natives still believe the 'dragon bird' it still lived and refused to enter its territory. The dragons may have appeared to the Native americans until just prior to the European exploration. Cahmp was supposedly given animal sacrifices and sometime preyed on humans if an offerin g wasn't provided.

Of course Sayce would call it mythological, it has four feet and wings. I would like to know the date of the Hieroglyph as well. If New Kingdom, and we give credence to the exodus story, one could suggest these are the "destroyers" of the Passover event - Semetic mushushu dragons! But you are correct, it does seem this is something 'foreign' to the culture. which makes the foreign connection more interesting. As for the hymns in the pyramid texts, of the Serrif, these are old kingdom and the monsters go by the same name.

It is too stylized to truly say it mucst have a bird's head. But as i said before, Griffins are probably dragons, they are even painted green. I do know of egyptian art of a winged crocodile that seems decidedly dragonish.

I finally found the complete article regarding the "Image of God" as proposed by Dr. Michael Heiser, I will reproduce it here comments are welcome. I decided to post it here since I was supposed to get back to will_1835 some time ago on this issue. Unfortunately it took me this long to get hold of the article.

You are partially right. The complete answer is the trinity, the angels(us) oh and us. This is explained in revelation.

The correct answer I believe is that in Hebrew the word has a singular meaning even if it is in a plural form. It refers to One God and One God alone.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Hebrew_grammar

danielost and Clovis,

If you actually analyze the specific text in Genesis, you will notice that in the 1st instance of elohim (v.26) the meaning is quite clearly plural due to the syntax and and the context.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Now even though the word elohim can be singular or plural depending depending on the context as can be seen, in no way can we state that this is a reference to the Trinity or angels, since 1) the Trinity as it is known was an unkown to the original authors of the Old Testament and 2) the Hebrew word for angels is "malakim" which in no way can be likened to elohim.

That leaves us with only one option. Verse 26 refers to Gods. The question then is not whether it refers to the Trinity or the Angels, but what Gods are being refered to here?

This is where Psalm 82 comes into play as well as Deuteronomy 32:8-9

The Gods who are mentioned here are not angels they are gods, above the angels but below the Most High and his Co-Ruler Jesus who is the actual Creator of everything and through whom God does everything. They were created just like the angels thus cannot share in the uniqueness of God himself, who is unique and eternal.

The terms, Sons of God, gods, the Starry host, the Divine Council, the Assembly of God all refer to these other beings who are the recievers of Gods word in verse 26.

In verse 27 though we have a totally different situation, we have a syntax that is clearly singular in nature and it is this singular God who does the actual creating of mankind. These other Gods did not participatre in the creating.

It has always been known that the image of God is "to be like God", in what he does and what he is. It is thus that the "image" is directly linked to the rest of verse 27 and is known as "The Dominion Mandate". We were created to be Gods imagers on earth. We are his representatives. Just like an embassador speaks for his country God had given us the authority to be his word on earth.

You may be right.

The mormon church refers to chapter one as the spirital creation of everything. chapter two as the physical creation of everything.

thus in chapter one man is the last to be created. in chapter two he is the first. fits in with the first shall be last and the last shall be first theme of christ.

Also if God had already gone through what we are going through then he would have brothers and sisters too I think.

Not really. The story would have been spread via the spread of man from the tower of babel.


Some of the pyramids were built while the jews were in egypt perhaps with their help. Maybe they put some of their own stories on those walls or used their own letters.


Egypt and China may have done some trading directly or indirectly. Thus the stories could spread that way as well. If the Mormons are right and some or all of the indians are from isreal then their stories would have come here via China.

Such a great question and God doesn't always want everything to be explained because then there would be no surprises in the end =)

What I get from this is that God the father, angels, and human beings all appear similiar in facial features, bodies...etc...God is everything, and can be anything from a rock to a burning bush. But I believe his main form is of humanoid appearance having facial features and a celestial body. The only difference from us is that our bodies are made of flesh that can be destroyed. I believe when Adam and Eve were created their bodies were flesh but were indestructible kind of like how superman's body is. But post fall...yeah you know what happened. When God says lets make man in "our" image he is most likely talking to his angelic council basically saying "Lets make mankind look like us." The verse also says "image and likeness" meaning we are his representatives on earth and we also share closely the same appearance. That is why in our mind we consider ourselves to be the most beautiful of all creations and above all creations on earth.

Are you stating that Adam and Eve were immortal before the fall / expulsion from Eden?

I have to ask if you believe in the concept of original sin as well?

No, the pyramids are far older than any of the accounts of the Hebrews in Egypt. The Bible never mentions the word pyramid in it.

If the Bible is inspired, then the Seraph-dragons are real, and apparently are the same creatures known as Mushushu in Mesopotamia and Lung in China, all collectively called dragons today.

And this is why modern Christianity tends to cover up the Biblical dragons, becasue they are so similar to the dragons in what they consider 'false religions'.

What you are picking up on is the pagan influence....the beleif that there were many gods...

Of course there were many Gods, 70 to be exact. The Israelites knew this very well and registered this in the bible. That is why the nation of Israel was set aside by Yahweh to be his own nation, abandoning the others to be ruled by his lesser creations, the other elohim, that is in fact where polytheism comes from.

This has been a great thread about our history and Gods history. I feel that in the creation story of Genesis, God and his/her angels created us. Adam could of been a an angel who chose to come into the 'human form of man'-there is a gnostic text that tells a story about Adam and God, God 'woed' for Adam and Adam 'woed' for God. There was clearly a separation that happened. The separation could of been by choice on the angels account, obviously the angels are for us to keep the connection between a unholy creature (us) and the holy God. I see the Elohim as the council below God, we are a fragment of Elohim, who are a fragment of God.

The Old Testement should be looked at very closely. Also, one should try to look at the origin before the Hebrews peak of God. I do feel that Yaw was not and is not the Father God of all creations. The creation story uses the word Elohim, the singular word for God is El. The Elohim were OF GOD. In the cananite history, we do find a all father God above all, he was called EL. Its irnoic that all angels have the 'el' suffix in their names (they are also of God). Yaw/Yam was one of the 70 sons of El (under one of the oldest temples in Canan was found a tablet, showing the story of EL the Father God and his 70 sons). Yaw was a desert enity and was the only son of El who did not experience a 'death'. Yaw was the 'invisible one', hence Yaw was associated with 'god of air-sky'. The other sons of El held positions like the 'god of the sun or moon'. The sun sets, its kinda like a death. The moon is not always in our site, in a way its kinda like a death. Yaw was invisible, so he always was. I feel that all of these 'sons of El' were symbolic for Els creations throughout the universe.

El DOES NOT require blood sacrifices and never ordered man to kill. In order for these sons of El to reside close to the human beings, there would need to be some sort of 'energy' being released through the humans doings to allow the son of El to reside with them. The blood sacrifice was needed for Yaw to dwell here. Killing gives off a energy, entities can thrive off of this energy. Alot of the Old Testament is a nation of people trying to adopt one God, the mistake was it should of been EL. But, there are no mistakes, El knew and knows all. It was all necessary, we all can learn a good lesson thanks to the history. El is within us. Yaw was not within people. Jesus cried to 'Eli Eli'-MY GOD MY GOD. Jesus did not cry YAW YAW. Never did Jesus even mention YAW. Yaw taught to eat meat, El never taught to eat meat. All of the prophets did not eat meat. John the Baptist did not eat meat. James the Righteous did not eat meat. WHY DO WE HAVE 2 teachings going on in the Bible???? Because we have 2 different enities!!! One enity, EL, is the far father, the creator of ALL. Yaw just wished he could claim the same, and tried to do so. I also feel EL does have a consort, which would be the sol of Earth. We are all of EL, Elohim, and the Mother Earth. El gives us the spirit of Life. Elohim gives us our soul. Mother Earth gives us our vessel to contain the other two bodies.

Hades was another son of EL. Hades represents the underworld, the place where a soul is separated from the spirit, the place where the Elohim is separated from their father, angels can come and risk the separation from the father in order to help the harvest of souls. If you dont allow growth for your soul here, you will be born of flesh again, this is Hell, beware, because you can get 'stuck' here. EL is patient, EL is mercy, EL is not proud, EL is Love, EL has created a cycle to harvest our souls. The more times you are born of flesh, the more you will loose your connection to the Holy. These are the people that walk around here on earth that dont care about others. Their spark of spirit is burnt out. They are likely never to regain that spark without an intervention from a person that contains a strong spark. I see angels choosing to come here to help these people or harm these people. EL wants all of his/her creations to find their way back to the ONE UNITED MIND. Our thoughts here are what is truly infinite. Bibles, crosses, statues and scrolls will not go with us to the beyond. Your thoughts will-they are forever. When we are judged by the council, it is our thoughts that are tapped into to be observed and weighed. Our direct connection with EL is our mind. Prayer sends our thoughts, mediation can send thoughts into us. If you are not grounded with EL, the peace, love light, you can receive a 'son of god' which could misguide you. Satan is just a generic word for the negative thoughts that can enter our mind from the beyond.

Some of the Elohim could not handle the power they were given. They became greedy, prideful and jealous. The Seraphim were fiery winged creatures. I dont feel though that they were part of our creation. The Seraphim are the guards of the Throne of EL. Now the 'sons of El' could of been made of EL and the Seraphim, and the connection here would make sense to me that YAW was often seen as fire/smoke/clouds. I see 'sons of EL ' who became greedy with their power and I see 'sons of El' who are still working their duty, to help purify souls to become HOLY, to become 'without blemish'. The sons of El are in a battle over the souls that come to Hades. Hades became earth because one of the 'sons of El' overtook the Sol of the Mother. El is also making a cycle to reclaim the Sol of the Mother, this is symbolic to the the bride that is talked about in Revelations. Wisdom in the Bible is also symbolic for the Sol of the Mother. Virgo the Virgin is symbolic to this bride who holds the 'branch' (the seed). Mary, mother of Jesus was also born of a Virgin. Marys mother worked in the Temple and was told by an angle that she would give birth to a daughter, and she must raise her daughter in the Temple. Jews became full of themselves because they are a part of this blood line that Jesus came from yet they still deney their savior. Jesus came and taught that Jews misinterpreted many things. Since Jesus did not teach what they believed, they deny him. God (EL) 'woes' for all of the souls , just as he woed for Adam, the first Elohim (angels) to separate from the Holy Haven. Also, in the Canaanite history, EL was portrayed sometimes as a Bull. Many old myths of a ALL FATHER GOD was depicted as a Bull or Cow. How strange is it that Aaron, who was supposed to be the 'mouth' of Moses, let the people create a Golden Cow/Bull while Moses was on the Mount. Yaw did not like this because he was trying to brake these people away from EL. If Aaron was chosen by God to be the mouth piece of Moses, why does Aaron slip up so easily?? I see a people having a hard time letting go of the Father God EL, while a 'son' of EL tries to claim them to be his so he can dwell here for his own purposes.

These are just my own comings through much spiritual growth. Im not saying all of this is 100%, but I am saying, the God I feel in me does not use man to murder, does not want mankind to come to him out of fear, does not need material things to dwell here with us. We all have a choice, we can keep getting born here into what is presently Hades until the meek inherit the earth and the cycle of souls ends OR we can become a true 'son/daughters of EL' again by purifying our soul with good intentions and by helping others find their 'spark' of the spirit within them. If the Elohim was not meant to be plural, then why does God need angels to be messengers to us? My idea of thinking is the creator Father is too Holy to intervene here all the time, this was why he needs the angels to be a part of this cycle, to do his work through them. Some of the angels did not like this, so they are trying to make a 'world of their own' as being gods. EL will put an end to this when the harvest of the fruit comes. Jesus was the first fruit to be harvested. The symbolic meaning is all through the old testament of the cycle of harvests. This is how EL shines through YAW, even though Yaw was ignorant to the knowledge that we would one day gain of understanding of the meaning of time, cycles and harvesting through the distortment of the Yaw.

Ever belief has a purpose for the ultimate united conciseness of the ALL.

Peace to all, and I respect every ones opinion-its not right or wrong, its levels of growth and understanding for God experiencing himself through us.

Just a quick response to the original post.

In the NKJV when it says His I believe it's referring to God as a whole, in the KJV when it says Our I believe it's referring to the Trinity (Father, Spirit, and Son).

Hopefully this helps you!

Things would be so much simpler if you were correct, unfortunately that is not the way the cookie crumbles.

The reference is very specifically to other elohim and not to the Godhead.

We as christians tend to read things into the biblical text because of our 20/20 hindsight, but the real and correct interpretation must be seen from the worldview of the writers of these texts, as such there was no Trinity. There was a Supreme God, Eternal and unique who had a co-regent similar to that which existed in other near East religions like that of Ugarit.

This Supreme God also created a tier of lesser beings which are called the Sons of God among other things. They are not Angels, they are gods. It is these who are referenced in Genesis 6 as being the cause of the flood and the corruption of humanity. Read my earlier posts for more specific references.

These are the Gods who would destroy humanity, who ruled over the pagan world with which we are so familiar in our Roman and Greek myths. They are the fallen Gods, the dark angels as we call them today. These are the Dominions and Principalities which are mentioned in the NT. They are not false (as in non existant) they are very real.