Im looking at through BOTH perspectives..and even though there is NO evidence in his miracles...it doest stop christians from believing..I guess that's the beauty of it..and if he did preform these miricles, then I would say he would be able to read and write also..


I don't buy yor efforts to claim he was illiterate and couldnt write anything...in ortherword thick!!! <--what you suggested for a man that was seen as GOD did not make one ounce of sense...then I read your statements above claiming there was no evidence of his miricles <--how does that make sense to a christian...if you look at it in how a christian does, then Jesus was GOD and did create miricles...hardly dumb....

What I am saying here, as Jesus is just part of a belief system..and it is said he was that powerful..then it don't make sense to claim he couldnt read or write...cuz that is just plain silly

Jesus is not only part of a belief system, but also of history. Though not a whole lot of it.

I never claimed Jesus was "thick". I might make that claim on his disciples. But if he taught the things in the Gospels, he seemed pretty intelligent. Though, not necessarily condusive of a formal education.

Hisortically speaking, it is not likely that Jesus was very literate.

If you belive he was God and all powerful, then sure. The sky's the limits. There's nothing to question.

I can imagine that Jesus was accepted by the commoners easily because He was one of them but rejected by the scholars because He was not.

Histortically speaking ?? LOL then how where others that where around in those times able to WRITE anything?? Historically speaking of course!!

I DONT beleive he existed therefore not seen in my POV as hisrotical nor seen as God IMO..but Christian however DO...<--spot the difference will !!

And that is not only historically accurate, but theologically sound, correct?

Now , this makes sense .

Beckys_Mom, illiterate doesn't equal thick. In the ancient world, literacy was not ubiquitous as it largely is today.

I appreciate that you don't believe Jesus existed, but to take part at all in this you have to be doing a 'but if he did...' suspension of disbelief, surely.

If Jesus was a carpenter from Galilee, whether he could likely read or write would be difficult to guess.

You seem to be arguing that if he was the Son of God then of course he would be able to read, but this isn't theologically/christologically cut and dried. God clearly placed some human limitations upon Jesus - he can die, feel pain, be angry, worry, and clearly isn't omniscient. So whether God would choose to supernaturally endow Jesus with the ability to read and write (if as a normal carpenter he couldn't) would be difficult to fathom without further evidence either way.

If we treat Jesus as an historical figure, whether he could read or write is a legitimate, but likely unanswerable, question. If we go with the Gospels in a literal way, there is a mention (which I referenced earlier) of Jesus 'writing' in the sand (Jn 8:6-8), which, if he was actually writing, implies of course that he was literate. If we don't go with the Gospels in a literal way, but are still for the sake of argument speaking as if Jesus was the Son of God, then the question is again unresolved.

Hi Will -- I am rather surprised by your above comment.
How can you reconcile it with the following Scripture?

Luk 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And, as His custom was, He went in to the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up to read.
Luk 4:17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And unrolling the book, He found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on Me; because of this He has anointed Me to proclaim the Gospel to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim deliverance to the captives, and new sight to the blind, to set at liberty those having been crushed,
Luk 4:19 to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luk 4:20 And rolling up the book, returning it to the attendant, He sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on Him.
Luk 4:21 And He began to say to them, Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your ears.

Your thoughts?
Karlis

Really?? how so?...

A man good with his hands..skilled...you now say for him and so many like him..its is hard to guess if they can read or write??? that is a narrowminded POV...

Gee I wonder how many great skilled handy maen would agree with your statement??

Frankly it is insulting to think that there could be a chance that someone like a joiner (carpenter) there is a chance people like them cant read or write?? give them some credit at least

Getting back to Jesus...the guy was meant to be GOD..the all powerful man himself that could preform miricles..yet cant read or write to save himself?? that doesnt make sense

Christians see Jesus as perfection...hardly a case of --> Ohh Jesus was perfect BUT..he couldnt read or write...he was rather dence in that respect!!!!!!!!!! <--does not make sense

LOL just as I thought...the character Jesus could read and possible write...darn it..there goes all those statements that suggest he was illiterate

Good find Karlis.

No, you're misunderstanding the issue - it's not a case of me looking down on carpenters! It's about access to that sort of education in that place at that time. 18% of people in the world today are illiterate (source), and it was far, far more 2,000 years ago, especially in rural communities like the one Jesus grew up in.

What's insulting is the idea that people who are illiterate are therefore 'thick'. Illiteracy is still a global problem related to access to proper education, not IQ.


See my last post - Jesus was endowed by God with at least some human frailties. Why not this one?


The nature of the perfection of the person of Jesus in different dogmas and at different points in history is a complex matter. It's not enough to say "he was perfect so he could definitely read and write", even if we're going on christological rather than historical grounds.

Then explain how in the christian bible it says this (as presented previously by Karlis)....Luk 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And, as His custom was, He went in to the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up to read.
Luk 4:17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And unrolling the book, He found the place where it was written,

Hardly suggests that Jesus was illerate...

No, and neither does the passage which I've now cited three times in this thread, in John 8, in which Jesus writes in the sand.

However, given that it was already established in this thread, which I've been assuming you've been following, that the Gospels say Jesus was literate, I took this particular discussion to be from a non-literalist or historical perspective, since if it was from a literalist perspective then the answer is clear and uncontroversial.

Contradicting..to state he reads and writes in the bible...yet state he was illiterate = UNABLE to read or write

It depends on where you're coming from. Biblical literalism is not the only Christian point of view.

Since I suspect neither you nor I are Christians, we're not coming from a dogmatic standpoint, so it's a legitimate discussion to have. The fact that it says so in the Gospel only indicates that one group of Christians are unable to speculate on the point - everyone else is free to question whether that particular Gospel passage is historically plausible.

What in particular was written from that time period in Hebrew or Aramaic, from people in Galillee? I am not familliar with what may have been written, but it cannot be much.

How do people learn to write? Usually with a formal education. Sometimes their father's teach them.

Very good outlook on the situation. Thank you.

Just a note. The reference in John, while I am not sure when Jesus wrote in the dirt, that it was clear he was writing words, it is known that that whole passage in not a part of the original text. Likely a later addition...

It was a very famous passage. It is highly likely that Jesus had much memorized from the Law and the Prophets. Which was a very commpn practice.

I think it is very likely that it was simply a recitation. However, it does say "read". I will grant it is a very good argument. Thank you.

(I have no set opinion on the topic. I am open to exploring all possibilities. Including Jesus really having a divine language ability. As Mel portrays in the Passion. Where Jesus speaks Aramaic, Hebrew, and then Latin with Pilate[even though Pilate himself most likely spoke Greek in real life] )

Jesus was not a carpenter. He was an 'artisan' or 'wood carver' according to the New Testament. And it only mentions that once. It also mentions his father's accupation as that once, in a different Gospel. It is actually quite possible that he never had a regular job, but was devoted to his spiritual pursuits. The writing of him as an 'artisan' may have been just a guess, because his father was. And it was assumed that if one's father had a particular occupation, that their son also would.

I fail to see how being an artisan or even a carpenter is in any way related to literacy. You realize trades were usually learned by doing back then? Via one's father, relative, or an apprenticeship? The ability to read in that situation was not required. The only people in this time period, and place, and of Jesus' people, which I can see needing to read and write were the Scribes of the Pharisees. The Pharisees, and the Sanhedrin most likely were all formally educated and literate.

I'm sure I'll post more than once on such a fascinating thread but for starters....

The Issue of Literacy

It's true that ancient societies depended much more heavily on oral tradition. Their scholars were trained from childhood to remember extended accounts perfectly, thousands of words, word for word. I suspect it was an art that we can't even begin to imagine today. But if you had to pick two societies that placed and incredible emphasis on literacy, the Jews and the Romans would be up there near the top.

The Roman reason was political. They controlled such a huge empire that the leaders couldn't meet face-to-face so they needed to communicate in writing. Of course, they had scribes, but the politicians themselves must have needed to do occasional proof reading. How long would it have taken to overthrow the government if they were totally dependent on their servants to communicate? Parents who hoped that their children would rise in the political system would have arranged to have their sons educated. (Women were illiterate but since Jesus wasn't a woman that fact is irrelevant in this thread).

The Jewish community also put an incredible emphasis on literacy (way before anyone else). Part of the Bar Mitzvah was being able to read the Torah.

There's all this emphasis in Christianity about how Jesus was a "humble carpenter". Well, carpentry in those days wasn't such a humble profession. There wasn't a lot of lumber around in Israel two thousand years ago. Carpenters were highly educated artisans using a rare material. Also, they worked in teams so they probably AT LEAST read blue prints.

From what I've read, it's very doubtful that Jesus would have been illiterate.

My quick thought on the idea of Jesus having to be fully literate because He could perform miracles: Just because Jesus could turn water into wine does not mean He knew how to brew.

Jesus lived from about 6 BCE to 27 CE. There was no such thing as a Bar Mitzvah until about 700-1000 CE.


What is your source of Jesus as a carpenter? According the the New Testament jesus was a "artisan" or "wood engraver". Carpentry was not a popular vocation in a land that neither posessed much wood, nor built structures out of wood.

Not True. When Jesus was twelve years old and was taken to the temple to read scripture in front of the elders he was having a bar mitzva. (see Luke 2:41-42

It says nothing of the sort. Just "Jesus' parents went to Jerusalem for Passover every year." and "when he was 12 they went up as usual."

Nothing about Bar- Mitzvah. Besides, this was like 1,000 years before they created the custom of Bar-Mitzvah. So it is absolutely impossible. Not to mention Jesus was 12. Even if they observed some futute custom no one knew about, he was too young.

Bro was a Schollar, So with any common sense, (Thats all it takes) One Knows That he wrote more than something in the sand.

Love Omnaka

According to the bible, your ideas on Jesus may not be able to read or wrire are proven to be wrong..for the bible states he reads and writes...

Jesus could read I tell you!!!!

That IS what a carpetner does..carves wood..makes things... silly goose!!


You FAIL to see a lot of things will...including what the bible says...and you FAIL to realize that Jesus most likely DID take time to also LEARN how to read and write...he was a man of MANY skills!!!

And futher more.. you fail to see that I have based this topic to the bible..on how the bible doesnt contain gosples actually written by Jesus..so I ask - did Jesus write ANYTHING..and here you are boring me with nonsense of your own.ideas...

Thats a tad rich coming from you, when you fail to provide anyhting to back you OWN statments up..........and once more what the heck has this got to do with THE TOPIC AT HAND?

Not hardly.

Besides, it hardly proves that everyone was literate as Siara seems to believe.

A carpenter does not carve or engrave wood. A carpenter builds structures out of wood. Hardly an artistic trade.


Hey, you need to chill out.


No, Jesus didn't write anything that we know of.

Look, there's no room here for your behaviour. Why don't you go to another forum?

What does Jesus' occupation as either an artisan or a carpenter have to do with literacy? Really. There's no logic there.

BM, once again what is with the aggressiveness and personal attacks ?

Other members are entitled to contribute their views without being told they are "boring", if you find the discussion boring then by all means step away from the thread.

Please contribute to the discussion in a civil manner and avoid attacking other members.

Thank you.

He did? Where did you get your info from may I ask?

hmmmm......didn't anyone here bother to read the Nexus article on Constantine?

It has often been emphasised that Christianity is unlike any other religion, for it stands
or falls by certain events which are alleged to have occurred during a short period of
time some 20 centuries ago. Those stories are presented in the New Testament, and
as new evidence is revealed it will become clear that they do not represent historical
realities. The Church agrees, saying:
"Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its
earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which
we must, to a great extent, take for granted."
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)


http://www.nexusmagazine.com/index.php?opt...view&gid=30

A carpenter does in fact carve wood...

Though carpentry is often associated with the building of large structures like homes, freeways, and skyscrapers, another subset of carpentry exists. Some carpenters specialize in making smaller objects, like furniture, carved wood pieces, or sculptures. You can find master or journeymen carpenters who are particularly gifted in designing small aspects of a home, like staircases or cabinets.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-does-a-carpenter-do.htm

Umm you were the one to drag up what Jesus did for a living...not me..just yourself

Even if that was the case, that is not a carpenter's specialty. Carpentry is one of the trades I make a living off of. And in the past 11 years, neither me, nor any of my co-workers have ever done, or been asked to make any wood carvings or sculptures. The word "τεκτονος" and it's Hebrew equivalant, via LXX to BHS, "חרשׁת". Both mean "to carve" or "to engrave", as an artisan trade, with metal, stone, etc., but with special cannotation to woodworking.

It appears these two translations have been true to the text:
(ALT) "This is the craftsman, the Son of Mary and Brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, is it not? And His sisters are here with us, are they not?" And they were caused to stumble because of Him"
"(BBE) Is not this the woodworker, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were bitter against him."

Actually, it WAS you. Not me:

I never claimed it was their speciality will..and further more a trade like that has no revelance in this thread....the thread is aimed asking - did Jesus write anything?? some have provided proof that the bible claims he did read and write

But there is nothing of his work

Then why use the word at all? It's like saying that a Cashier's job is to clean toilets. That may be entailed in the duties of a cashier. But that's not what the word "cashier" means or refers to.

Some have. Writing is almost out of the question. "He bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger." And that wasn't in the autographs. It was added in the 8th and 9th centuries, as most people are aware. As for reading? I'll grant the Gospels mention it. Only once. I think it's very dubious, especially considering the nature of the passage being famous.

It mentions it once. And once mentions his father's occupation. Which, considering the work, it would not have influenced his literacy.

No, as far as we know Jesus did not write anything. Nor his disciples. The stories were not written down at all, until much later.

Because you brought it up...not me..you did..you went on and you where the one to mention his job..why you did it ..I dont know..you just......did!!



Will..you havent convinced me they the character in the book - 'Jesus' was unable to read or write

do you still wish to try ??

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe Jesus really did do linguistic miracles?

"Joh 7:15 The Jews therefore marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?"

Thats cool, maybe you should create a thread about his miricles..worth a shot

I never used that word. Besides, I've already shown that it was indeed you that brought it up, not me. So get a grip.




When have I ever? I am just trying to correct some of your fallacious remarks and explore all possibilities.

1st of all I dont appreciate you telling me to get a grip...and my remarks ref to this are not deceptive

and you did bring up the job of Jesus..not myself

If you wish for me to explore anything you say...then you are going about it the wrong way

Actually Nucular brought up the carpenter issue and BM and Nucular disagreed over it through a couple of posts before will simply contributed his viewpoint.

Even after I've proven you to be a liar, you won't stop? You're ridiculous.

Actually we are both correct..nucular did bring it up to me...but when I was talking to will...he was the 1st to continue to carry it on in post 68 he kept it up...



and I had not mention to will anything about Jesus being a carpetner lol...it was will that contiuned on from nucular

never mind

You two are acting like an old married couple lol

(I say that because it is cute kinda in a way sorta...)