Hi guys,

I've become quite interested in a group called the cathars who are as I'm sure you all know an old religious group persecuted by the Roman Catholic church and were thought to have been wiped out, but from some of my findings they seem to have become a group called the weavers.

I've found this site which gives a description about them and wanted to know what others thought or if they could help with any further information to help me find out a bit more about this little known and secretive group;

http://www.theweavercode.com/

Any help or info would be really appreciated.

Why did you start another thread about the same topic that not only already exists about four threads down, but you already had a whole other thread going about this exact thing that you opened a mere 5 days ago?

Trying to sell a book or something? Hmmm?

Just like with the Templars the survival of the Cathars is but a legend. The last of them were burned on the Camp des Cremats after the fall of Montsegur. Even if some would have liked to continue the tradition, neither the scriptures nor the rites were preserved making it impossible.

The only attributable archaeological remnant is a white porcelain dove, and to find that somebody wasted his whole fortune looking for the gold of the Cathars.

Tell that to the current crop of "Druids" and "Pagans", could ya?

--Jaylemurph

Tell that to the AGC. According to them, they are Cathars... or claim to be. So is it truly just a legend?

I could claim to be the Lord God Almighty; that doesn't make it so. People who put on silly robes and claim to be Druids or Cathars do so on exactly the same principal as my claim to be god.

--Jaylemurph

Undoubtly there were some Cathars that survived.However,these were most likely the credentes,or ordinary believers.The Perfecti,also known as Good men and Good Women died just as Questionmark posted. They were the ones who oberserved celibacy,ate no animal flesh,and preformed the various ceremonies of the Cathar faith.
Many of their books and writings are lost to us,though i think there are a few books here and there,that might have survived.However, those who knew how to preform the rituals are gone.Such is not the case with the Waldeseans,who were founded by Peter Waldo in Lyons back in the Middle Ages.They still exist and some of them came to the US and founded a town in either North or South Carolina.

You can find out information on Google or New Advent,or other places on the net.
There was also the Humiliati,I believe they still exist,but mainly as a purely regilous community.
The Italian Cathars were well known as weavers,as were the Humiliati group.
Whether or not they wove any messages in the cloth is another matter.

As far as Druids and pagans go, the question is,are they practicing the same ancient rites as their ancestors to which I answer,I don't know.
Is it possible some of them do,yes of course. They may have passed this down through the generations. Just like in Spain, jews who choose to convert and become Catholics in order to remain in Spain were known as conversos.Sometimes,they were accused by neighbors of still practicing jewish rituals in the privacy of their home.Most likely there were some families who did.
There were even Cathars in Germany,but have been able to read in English very little about them. I sometimes wonder if any of my father's relatives ever belonged to them, but I have no idea if the Cathars were in Bavaria,or what towns there. I too would like to know more about the Knights Templar in Germany,and they were there.My father's family has always been in the military in Germany,probably even back in the days when they were pagan ,and fighting Romans and other germanic tribes.Would love to know if any members were Knights Templars or Teutonic Knights. Quite possibly yes,but I'll have to save up my money and try to write relatives in Garmisch to find out which relative in Nuremberg keeps the family history book and where they live in town so I can visit them.Would love to win the Lotto so i could hire someone to do research for me.

Also I believe the Cathars rejected not the New Testament,but the Old Testament.I understand they were partial to John's Gospel. And there may have been some connection to the Bogomils, as a Bogomil bishop visited the Cathars at a confrence they group had,I believe in Italy.

Well that's not the version I got from many local historians on a recent trip to the Cathar country. Plenty of people support the notion that there were Cathar escapees from Montsegur. Whether they survive as a movement today, as druids or pagans or whatever else, is not something I could comment on.

Tell me more Phoeton. I agree that the group do still exist and are around us and operating today as the weavers. Is it so hard to believe that the Roman Catholic church did not capture every last one of them. And anyhow they knew they were being persecuted they woulod have made alot of effort to keep their secrets just in case they did get taken out as seems to be what did happen.

That doesn't change the fact that these "Cathars" are tracking people who promote The Weaver Code and posting unnecessary, author bashing messages. In fact, they've even got a website. Another cult beginning, perhaps?

I think you'll find that although they did start out as a Cathar sect, the Waldensians rejected all of their unorthodox views during the Reformation and started to proclaim mainstream Protestant beliefs. Certainly the one in Valdese, NC, don't know anything about the Cathars or espouse their beliefs. (And I say this as fact; I grew up 20 miles from Valdese.)




Yep. The above mentioned Waldensians. You can read the Wikia article on them to find out more.



I dunno. Seems to me that have the same right to post as anyone else here, especially if some lone nut purports to speak for them but says things contrary to their beliefs.

--Jaylemurph

I understand that, but from what I've seen, it was only one post that was bashing, saying that it was fictitious and all that. And that is, of course, assuming that they actually do exist, contrary to some prior posts.

If they could have codes in knotted strings..why not not in cloth?


http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~elf/abacus/inca-khipu.html

Huguenots and the
Cathars


...or were they?



http://www.geocities.com/hugenoteblad/hist-hug.htm?200823

http://osdir.com/ml/culture.templar.rosemo...7/msg00017.html



http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Colony-Templars...tion/1594770190

Many Visigoths under Moorish rule in Iberia converted to Catholicism, and while one of my history books called them Mozarbs, it appears that the term Mozarb, are for those who remained Christian under Moorish rule. The Moors allowed non Muslims as long as they payed a tax. When the Visigoths, now Catholics, took back southern Spain in the Reconquista they made the Muslims and Jews convert. Deportation and being a victim of the Inquisition was the other options.

Many of the Shephardic Jews had escaped in the Diaspora after the Romans were warring with them in Judea. Some left to the farthest known corner of the empire to Spain and they became the Shephardic. They were persecuted under law by the Visigothic Code then welcomed the Moorish invaders. After Granada fell they again were persecuted. Those became the Conversos but many still were persecuted just for being Jewish ethnics. Some of them moved again to the farthest edge of the known world which was in New Spain. Some still were persecuted by Catholics so went underground and became Cryptic Jews.

Many of the ways were lost but some still keep some of the customs usually passed from mother to daughter only. Some have been DNA tested and have found out they had Cohenite DNA, which means they descend directly from Moses' brother Aaron who are the priest class of the Jews. The office of priesthood though died out within them as far as we know. They also speak a form of Spanish called Ladino which is like Old English.

As far as reconstructionist religions like neo-Pagan and neo-Druids I think they have as much right as anyone else to attempt to reform the paths. Sure it will be nothing like the older traditions but something new but that is what is exciting about it.

As I said Drakdestroyer, I don't know if I buy the idea that the Cathars survive. But if you want to get a sense about the escapee theory then Google "cathar treasure" or "tresor cathar".

Thanks for that Clovis!

Thanks for the replies. I have found another link on the net which also supports the group existing,

Check it out here: http://weaversinthenews.blogspot.com/

I think what interests me is that this group aren't that well known. There is every reason to believe they do exist.

... all practices which they performed because they believed that anything material or earthly was in its very nature sinful.

Wow just found this today from a friend. It's a pretty good link to show just how the Cathars and the Weavers are connected.

Helps clarify some of the points that people have been asking.

http://www.history-of-the-cathars.com/

The Cathars and Waldensians are actually two separate groups.I don't believe we know who exactly started the Cathars.
I have a book on Mediveal heresies at home that goes into depth on Peter Waldo and his group.
Waldo's aim was always to be part of the Church,but the clergy objected to a layman preaching,and various other things with him,so they split away.It was during the time of the Reformation,when they started to adopt more protestant beliefs in various matters.

Well, the Waldensians weren't strictly speaking Cathars, but it's impossible to say, especially given when the Waldensians were founded, that some (if not many) of their beliefs were strongly influenced by the Cathars.

--Jaylemurph

I, too, traveled through the wine country and researched the Cathars in places like Couiza, Esperaza and many villages southward to Roquefort, etc. My experience was that I encountered a general hesitancy from the populace to discuss local history and while there were "historians" presenting their versions, there were also an abundance of private libraries openly denied to outsiders. Some of these libraries belong to historic families whose names were well known in the time of the Albigensian Crusade. Still, they reject researchers and adamantly restrict their books to review.

An example of this attitude can be found at the small museum next to the church at Rennes les Chateau. It would obviously be in the interest of the village to bring more tourists and that could be done by enhancing the legends surrounding the site. Still, the women working in the museum do everything possible to deny that Sauniere was receiving money in clandestine forms or that a treasure rests nearby.

It has always been characteristic of French society to embrace secrets. Secret societies were abundant in Paris at the turn of the 20th century and still today there are rumors of others. Citizens of the area appear to accept tourists who simply come and go, but they make research very difficult for someone who stays for a month or so.

I don't think that's obvious at all. I imagine I'd be irritated by the stream of ill-informed tourists nosing around my village looking for non-existent secrets if I lived in Rennes-les-Chateau. too. I wouldn't do something to increase them.

And what is it with odd, ill-formed and sweeping statements of national characteristics at UM today? First only fat Americans believe in 2012 destruction and now the Frenchmen are hiding secrets. All we need now is a crack about sexually-repressed Englishmen and cheap Scots to round out a 1970s comedy film.

--Jaylemurph

And how do you interpret the French living within a distinct and specific area as being all Frenchmen? And is it a bit sweeping to offer the assumption that the secrets of Rennes les Chateau are "non-existent?"

And speaking of ill-formed, sweeping statements, I am certainly not an ill-informed tourist and I wasn't nosing around a village. I was part of a team that had a research permit from the French Minister of Higher Education and Research and the sponsorship of UNESCO.

You didn't say anything about "a distinct or specific area", though; you said "It has always been characteristic of French society to embrace secrets." That's pretty sweeping.



No. It's history. The only people hawking mysteries there are con-men and their dupes too lazy or too credulous to find out better.



I wasn't suggesting you were. That's your own reading.

--Jaylemurph

The museum by Rennes Le Chateau was indeed underwhelming. Much better was the small museum in Montsegur itself, where I was able to talk to a local historian for some time. He endorsed the escapee theory, which crops in the documentary which DarkDestroyer posted below. What I think is especially interesting though is this theory that the Cathars association with weaving became so great that the Cathars became known as the Weavers.

My first post here and I get to debunk a skeptic.

I have no doubt that the Cathar religion is dead, even with those in a small region of France claiming to be Cathars. However, there is plenty of documentation that Cathars survived the crusade. I don't know if it's on the internet, but I have read several documents from that period of time that openly discussed that there were in fact survivors. Many fled the region, some stayed. The goal of that Crusade was not to exterminate the religion. It was just to keep them from being a dominant Christian religion in Europe.

It's all out there, you just might have to actually open a book to find it.

Wikapedia should never be your final source of information. The last known burning of a Cathar is in 1321... NOT the last known Cathar is burned in 1321... HUGE difference.

I can tell you by name one Cathar that did in fact survive... Raymond of Toulouse. Not Raymond V, who was the leader of the Cathar army... but his son, Raymond VI, who took over when his father died. In fact many of the leaders survived... Most were granted exiled to various regions... Mostly to the Kingdom of Aragon. Some even fled to England.

The Crusade and inquisition that followed was never designed to exterminate the Cathar religion, rather to destroy their footholds and to prevent the religion from spreading. It achieved that goal. But it was never to rid the world of Cathars. Maybe that's what Pope Innocent III wanted, but the Royal families would have never allowed that to happen, and in fact they didn't allow that to happen.

Was Raymond VI actually a Cathar, or just a nobleman who supported them? What sort of leaders were these survivors, leaders of the sect or wealthy landowners who refused to persecute the Cathars?

It is not easy to put Occitania into the concept of the middle ages. From what we know it was a very liberal society where both women and minorities were equals. That is probably the only reason why the Cathars could flourish to start with.

The pope attempted to send the Dominicans to "convince" the nobles of persecuting Jews and Cathars, and it ended with the inquisitors being dumped into a well(and some stones on top of them for good measure.)

That is what prompted the crusade against the Cathars, which really was a crusade against the liberal Occitania.

Occtiania had been on its own for a long time, though. After the fall of Rome, it was the site of Jewish kingdoms that had little to do with the rest of Europe; as you say, part of the Albigensian Crusade was to force it into the Europe if its day.

--Jaylemurph

Your right about Occitania society.I believe that under this so called "Crusade" it was an attempt to put that region of France and it's nobles under the thumb
of the French king,so it was not just religious,but political as well.

As far as Raymound,Count of Toulouse is concerned,i seem to recall that he had a couple of women relatives who were Cathars. However as far as I know,he himself was not a member of the faith. There were nobles sympathatic to them and were supportive of the group,and there may well have been some members of the noblity who belonged to the group.

No - they definitely wanted to wipe out the Cathars and their faith. They just didn't suceed. Both are two of the things which are correct in the documentary which DarkDestroyer posted.

I like that this has cuased some debate on this forum as any good conspiracy should. I just picked up on all this stuff I've posted on the net so not sure of it's origins but have no reason to doubt it. Does anyone who may have made this film. I'm guessing some academics are probably behind it that have probably been distgruntaled about not getting enough funding to properly look into this group and made the film to get some support and drum up interest?

I highly doubt that.

--Jaylemurph

Can anyone deny that the majority of all secret organizations in Europe have been seated in Paris? Was it not the vogue at the turn of the 20th Century to belong to one of the many secret societies that defined Paris' elite?

So I suppose these "con men" influenced the highest echelons of Nazi Germany to send engineers into the area of Rennes les Chateau to explore and excavate for several months? The fact that they did is also history.

When responding to my account of my experiences you referred to "nosey tourists" and I think it logical to believe that I was included in that category.

You just don't get it, do you? I never said /you/ were a "nosey tourist". If nothing else, I would have spelled "nosy" right.

Well, I'm not sure it's a good idea to suggest that all secret organizations are the same thing as "secret societies", but I'm reasonably certain the majority of them aren't seated in Paris. Although -- gasp! -- come to think of it, there is a secretive society at my workplace at Christmas time called Secret Santas. I don't think they're based in Paris, but they could be. I'll have to look into this powerful, dangerous group.

Nor am I at all certain that invoking Nazis -- highest echelons or not -- as sensible people is... well, sensible. I mean, besides the fact they were genocidal, war-mongering fascists and that they were lead by a madman and coterie of perverts, they went looking for the people in the Hollow Earth and dabbled in made-up magic. Although... maybe the Hollow Earth is where all your secret societies are!

--Jaylemurph

Okay, so logic is not logical to you. Accepted.

Concerning Paris and secret societies or organizations (semantics is the armor of all wrongs) in Paris, they were so numerous that still today there are tours to their past meeting places. Debussy called Paris the Occult Capitol of Europe and was personally involved in some of those groups. The Acéphale society, the Halls, San Germain and hundreds of other societies dedicated to themes as distant as politics and art accentuated the Paris scene. It was so common that N. Webster wrote, "Secret societies and subversive movements" and listed many of them.

No other European city could match Paris for the existence of secret societies . . . . and yes, . . . .organizations.

No, see it *is*, and it's beginning to seem like a problem for you (q. v. the Nazis being a good basis for comparison). If you do figure out how to wrangle logic, feel free to start another thread and we'll continue this discussion. This thread already has a perfectly good topic and all this OT.

--Jaylemurph

Comparing the wackos who claim that the Vril Society was part of the Nazi belief system with the historic fact of actual excavations is logic??? If it is then you are right, I do have a problem with it.

I'm sorry; I wasn't aware you were that into defending the good name of the Nazis.

Still, amusing as that little aside was, I repeat:

--Jaylemurph

Not anymore, there were a lot of them in Paris, until certain quack called Crowley, dressed in a Kilt and wielding a sword, stormed the loggia of the Golden Dawn announcing he was taking over. After the white arm and black magic (sic.) battle, that had to be calmed down by the cops with half a dozen arrests, most loggias were invited to go somewhere else by the magistrates.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there weren't a lot in Paris. I'm not sure I'd use "the most" to describe their number at any point.

You know, Dark Breed would be a good person to put the question to.

--Jaylemurph

I'm jumping in here late, so please excuse the intrusion.

I'm going to have to side with Expat on this one. I can easily see the majority of secret societies being founded or run from Paris originally.

Consider where the seat of the Enlightenment was - Paris. Paris was the center of the universe when it came to the concept of free thought and many, if not most of the greatest quasi-modern philosophers and scientists at least spent time there. Why, you might ask? Because the crazies there would consider anything!! They would consider man's place in the world, the existence of God, god, gods, goddesses, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. They would consider the possibility that all men were created equal. They would consider that a woman was capable of just as wonderful and just as stupid thoughts as a man.

Why would an organization that claimed to be "secretive" go anywhere else? Why avoid a place that entertained ALL ideas, both wise and folly?

A perfect place for Ben Franklin - and even for Alistair Crowley.

I can see that you are still confused. I was defending logic.

You also continue to be confused that when I speak of the Nazis excavating in the area of Rennes les Chateau, it is related to the thread about the Cathars.

It makes sense that many of the societies were based in Paris and have either stayed or spread their wings to new palces as well, what better way to get your message out there or recruit members. It also makes sense that the Weavers may have also had some presence their as the Cathars had a strong support in the South of France.

I think the one of the most salient points about the Enlightenment was that it was the first /international/ intellectual movement. Especially compared with (say) the Renaissance, which ran through Europe in fits and starts: you can talk about the Italian Renaissance in the Trecento or the English Renaissance four centuries later. The Enlightenment was just as active in London, Edinburgh and Philadelphia (where they were actually putting many of those high-flung ideals into practice) as it was in Paris, so to call Paris the seat of the Enlightenment is to miss part of the point.

Besides, when considering the whole of Western History, Paris wasn't that important a city because France itself wasn't that important. It wasn't until the 17th Century that modern France was assembled from a puzzle of previously-autonomous duchies and counties like Occitania, Burgundy or the Aquitaine, and that the king in Paris (or Versailles) actually wielded substantial power.

It strikes me that a lot of the prestige you give Paris comes from its status not as a political centre, but as an educational one. Paris /was/ a university town, but I don't believe it was any more prestigious than any of the other cities like Oxford, Padua, Prague or Wittenberg.

And in the end, Paris wasn't that swell a place during a large proportion of the Enlightenment. I wonder just what percentage of the Parisians were able to sit around and ponder all sorts of ideas. Most people were (literally) living in sh** under a repressive, unfair regime, and it propelled them into a less than successful Revolution in 1789. And let's face it, the history of the Revolution is not one of large groups of people making rational decisions. It's one person carefully manipulating many, and of mobs in action.

I think you've single out a moment in Parisian history and tried to expand it throughout history in a way that's just not supported by facts.

--Jaylemurph

And, of course, we are assuming that all secret societies were eventually known and identified. In truth, we have no way of knowing how many such groups existed nor how many remained secret and were never discovered.

Excellent point.

--Jaylemurph

That's exactly right which is why new ones like the Weavers are able to come out of the woodwork after so many years, these guys were never identified before (well a bit but not much) and who knows how many others are lurking away under the woodwork, planning and working behind the scenes and will suddenly turn up when it's too late.