I found something that can be interesting :

"The depiction of the earth as it was accepted by the early Greeks and conceived by Homer represents a circular flat disk surrounded by a constantly moving stream of Ocean. An idea which would be suggested by the appearance of the horizon -- as it is seen from a mountaintop or from a seacoast. Homer’s knowledge of the Earth was very limited. He and his Greek contemporaries knew very little of the Earth beyond Egypt -- as far as the Libyan desert, the south-west coast of Asia Minor and the north side of the Greek homeland. Furthermore, the coast of the Black Sea was only known through myths and legends that circulated during his time. In his poems there is no mention of Europe and Asia as geographical concepts, and no mention of the Phoenicians either. This seems strange if we recall that the origin of the name Oceanus -- a term used by Homer in his poems -- belonged to the Phoenicians. That is why the big part of Homer’s world that is portrayed on this map represents lands that border on the Aegean Sea. It is worth noting that even through Greeks believed that they were in the middle of the earth, they also thought that the edges of the world’s disk were inhabited by savage, monstrous barbarians and strange animals and monsters; Homer’s Odyssey mentions a great many of them."

About the hesperides garden as one of ionian islands...

Now about my search for a more close atlantis, i did check back a text saying that an argonaut did go to see the atlantean electra before going to black sea to find the golden fleece ... electra was the daughter of the famous Agamemnon, descendants of Agamemnon are known (for greeks) as Atreidai or Atreidae which is a plausible link, but we can wonder so where come from Atlantis and Atlantean names... It can be a pelasgoi name ? if like i thought in beginning, the story is given to egyptians by pelasgoi (sea people), we would find the final solution... Mycenaean Civilization would be the last civilization developped by pelasgoi (atlanteans), they maybe mixed with greek invaders to create it or make it evolve for mixing greek caracteristics (as we see in crete with scripts)... but a thing is sure, after the end of Mycenaean Civilization, whole greece entered in dark ages and a dramatic falling of population...
It was sure that egyptians knew people of the sea did come from "foreign countries" and some greeks believe ancient greece was called Pelasgia and maybe its inhabitants peleset ? Atlantis so would have been a peninsula of Pelasgia and that's it... And egyptians would not call peleset people mycenaeans since Mycenaean Civilization did rise more later...

I was always sceptical about the fact that atlantis was simply a large kingdom dominating by its capital-island and that it was linked to minoan civilization, but i learnt that apples, discovered by greeks only in 300 BCE, were already cultivated since the neolithic in Anatolia...

But what is still questionable, it's if minoans had weapons... no arms or fortresses were found... greek story tellers would maybe be a bunch of mythomen ? taking old stories of old tribes to their advantage... We still wonder if greeks were ever in war with Troy... At least norse mythology says that there was a people in south "giving shadow on truth" ... hm...

oops i forgot to add my post to the above.....it's late lol
All good points in both posts and definitely something to think about.
The more I look into Troy and the finding of Troy by Schlieman the more it looks like complete rubbish. His son apparently pulled a huge hoax by claiming his father had found some Atlantis relics in Troy. My whole theory hinges on deciphering the myths, following them and finding the basis of the story and putting into the perspective of Plato. Because as we know, the story he heard did not come from a Greek.

As for the Pelasgians: this is my ideas about them. Funny enough I borrowed a book from the library today to get some info on Etruscans and noticed a picture of a bronze engraved mirror from 5th century BC with a picture of Calchas on it 'reading' a liver. A common practice of the Etruscan diviners was to hold a liver from a sacrifice and 'read' it for bad omens.
Wiki - Pelasgians
"Here, when a sacrifice had been prepared to Jove, according to the custom of their land, and when the ancient altar glowed with fire, the Greeks observed an azure colored snake crawling up in a plane tree near the place where they had just begun their sacrifice. Among the highest branches was a nest, with twice four birds--and those the serpent seized together with the mother-bird as she was fluttering round her loss. And every bird the serpent buried in his greedy maw. All stood amazed: but Calchas, who perceived the truth, exclaimed, “Rejoice Pelasgian men, for we shall conquer; Troy will fall; although the toil of war must long continue--so the nine birds equal nine long years of war.” And while he prophesied, the serpent, coiled about the tree, was transformed to a stone, curled crooked as a snake. "

OK, so Calchas is Etruscan and he's reading a liver for the Pelasgians, which in the phrase is referring to the Greeks, not necessarily Mycenaeans because it wasn't just them who was in the war. The story goes Calchas accompanied the Greek armies to Troy. So even if I don't believe the Troy part I would think Calchas is real from the engraving and historical evidence of this practice. Calchas must have been in Greece after 800BC, way after the Trojan War.

Also the Atlanteans wear azure coloured robes after their sacrifice and make judgement......maybe it's just me but I can see a parallel to the part above where an azure coloured snake after the Greeks sacrifice makes a judgement on what will happen.

The Etruscans were the most mystical and religious of all cultures of the time. They also adopted Poseidon as a God (Nethuns) It seems only Greeks called them Tyrreniyns/Tyrrenians, which I find odd that that is where the boundaries of Atlantis had reached. It remains unknown where the Etruscans came from. Could the Etruscans be from the wet Sahara, Atlantis?

I personally think the Pelasgians were the archaic Greeks in Thessally in Attica but over time the name spread for the whole of Greece. Lastly as you say the Mycenae I think would have become Pelasgians. There is some evidence in Lemnos. I've never heard Spartans or Lacadaemonians called Pelasgians. They are below Mycenae. I personally don't think this time frame is old enough for Atlantis. I think the remnant Athenian population Plato speaks of dates from 4000 -2000BC. The possible Pelasgians who are on the Acropolis and in Thessaly. I think the Egyptian priest of the time would know of them, as Herodotus did of being the original Greek ancestors AND there is evidence of them at the Acropolis from 5000BC.

Our knowledge of the neolithic age is much greater. Some forty years ago excavations on the Athenian Acropolis and on other sites in Attica brought to light many indications of neolithic life - dwellings, vases, tools, skeletons of sheep - which confirmed the traditions recorded by Herodotus that the Athenians were descended from the Pelasgians, the neolithic inhabitants of Thessaly. Indeed the neolithic vases of Attica date from the earliest neolithic age (5520-4900) like the ceramics from the Thessalian acropolis of Sesclos, as well as from the later neolithic age (4900-3200) like those from the other Thessalian acropolis of Dimini...The search for traces of the neolithic age on the Acropolis began in 1922 with the excavations of the Italian Archaeological School near the Aesclepium. Another settlement was discovered in the vicinity of the Odeion of Pericles where many sherds of pottery and a stone axe, both of Sesclos type, were unearthed. Excavations carried out by the American Classical School near the Clepshydra uncovered twenty-one wells and countless pieces of handmade pottery, sherds of Dimini type, implements of later Stone Age and bones of domestic animals and fish. The discoveries reinforced the theory that permanent settlement by farmers with their flocks, their stone and bone tools and ceramic utensils had taken place on the rock of the Acropolis as early as the sixth millennium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

We can see there how the Pelasgians can be traced and this also fits in with the dates I place the story of Atlantis in, which would also fit in with Plato's description of goings on at the base of the Acropolis in the description of Athens in Critias.

I'd have to do some more research on Mycenaean and Pelasgians to come to any other conclusion.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mgr/mgr12.htm

"Moreover, in the Odyssey it appears plainly that the children of Poseidon are an impious and outrageous race.


"And in the Argonautica we hear how the Argonauts were caught and miserably stranded in the shifting shallows of the Syrtes, and were wellnigh desperate, but "there came to the Minyans a wonder, passing strange. From out the sea there leapt landwards a monster Horse. Huge was he with mane flowing in the wind." The monster horse was a portent, was, in fact, the god himself. Peleus, we are told, was glad at heart, "for he knew that Poseidon himself would lift the ship and let her go."


Basically I see Poseidon as representing horse first. The horse king from Libya, worshipped forever there and being the ancestor God of the Minoans.

Apollonius Rhodius tells us that the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Tritonis in Libya. The goddess Athene, was called Neith by the Egyptians and Nia, by the Manding and Eteo-Cretans of Minoan civilization.

So that statement could collaborate Plato that both Greece and Egypt were founded by a Libyan goddess.
Funny how myth has Poseidon and Libya in a relationship producing Belus, who was first king of Egypt.

So if Poseidon is originally from the Sahara cultures and has crept into Minoan culture I would assume the Minoans were of African descent. We can connect ancient Dravidian to this mix also suggesting a modern 'out of Africa' theory.

So in a nutshell my theory goes:
Athene and Neith both originated in Sahara culture as did Poseidon as a horse God in ancient times prior to the Sahara's desertification - 2500BC.

I place Lake Tritonis further south than the Chott's behind Gabes or at Cyrenia as is usual based on following Herodotus description. It was in an area that covered the Erg Occidental/Oriental area, which entered the Atlantic Ocean at the Mauritania coast. Through this sea is the Richat Structure. The structure is covered in hundreds of feet of sand, apparently the walls of it are 100 feet high. Also sand erosion has eroded away alot of the middle hill.

This website explains alot better than I could how the dots connect through Proto-Saharan Gods.
http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/rel2.htm
The historic gods of Africa and Asia were of Proto-Saharan origin.Concepts concerning these ancient gods or great ancestors were first developed around a gigantic lake that formerly existed in Middle Africa around 8000 years ago. This is supported by the fact that the Saharan cultures have resemblances to those of Nubia. This lake was known in ancient times as Lake Tritonis.

Lake Tritonis was situated in the Libyan desert. Here as early as 7000 B.C., there was a slow transition from hunting , to cattle pastoralism. The prehistoric appearance of a great lake in Libya has recently been supported by satellite pictures of the Eastern Desert which indicate that a lake was located in the Qattara depression of northwest Egypt.

Around 10000 years ago pluvial conditions existed in the Sahara which led to the creation of numerous river beds now buried under tons of sand. Due to the abundance of streams, rivers and lakes in Proto-Saharan Africa men who were powerful, were men who could harness the powerful water of the numerous streams and rivers. Such men as these were recognized as demigods or great ancestors. For example in Sumer and Egypt gods and demigods were described as "reed-boat navigators". In Egypt some of these great men that became gods include Thoth, and Osiris.

This is supported by Dravidian and Egyptian traditions. In ancient Egyptian tradition Ptah, came from the Sahara below Egypt in Kush. He found Egypt inundated , so he performed great works of dyking and land reclamation so the land was more habitable.

The first avatar or Tirumal of the Dravidians is regarded as a fish, who showed Manu, a boat to save himself from being drowned. Tirumal,is the same as Visnu of Sanskrit literature, another name for this god is Mayavon, Mayan and Mal.

Moreover, it is interesting to note that the Arivar or sages of the Dravidians were also called Vellalar "lords of the flood " or Karatar "lords of the clouds". These sages earned these titles because of their skill in controlling the floods and in storing water for agricultural purposes.

According to the Olympian Creation Myth the earliest groups to appear on earth were the Libyco-Thracians. The Libyans were Proto-Saharans, as were the original Thracians, who were descendants of the Ku****e and Egyptian troops established at Trace , by Sesostris (Thutmose III or Ramses II),when he conquered Asia and Europe.

The early gods of these Proto-Saharans included a serpent, the sun: Hercules, Amon/Aman/Amma, and Kush or Khons. In Egypt and Kush, both Amon and Khons were depicted as coal-black in accordance with tradition. The Ku****es also worshipped a "lord of the mountains", which is analogous to Murugan, a Dravidian god in India. In India, Khrisna, Mal ,Vishnu, and Kali were usually depicted as black in color. Kali, was held to be a form of Paravati, consort of Siva. In addition the Dravidian god of the pastoral region:Mullai, was the black god Mayan, who was beloved by the milkmaids and cattle herders.

THE GOD MAA

Many of the Proto-Saharan beliefs originated during the wet African Aqualithic period. As a result their gods, who had once been great ancestors were referred to as "Fish" or "reed-boat navigators". This common god was called Maa , the man fish (of Eridu) in Mesopotamia and Syria and the ithyphallic forms, the prototype of Amon/Aman in Egypt ; and the goddess Minaksi, of Madura in South India the goddess of the fish eyes, the Malabar fish bearer of Mana and the sacred fishes of the Mapilla of the west coast of the Dekkan. In the languages of the Manding Maa, is used to refer to the ancient inhabitants of the African continent, and the invisible spirit who inhabits the water courses.In Egypt Maat, meant divine truth and justice.

Among the Proto-Saharans the name Maa, for their great ancestor/god was joined to many ethnonyms. The descendants of the Maa clan, claim descent from Maa, as evident in the name Mande, for the parent group of the Manding of West Africa. Mande means, Ma-nde or "children of Ma". Some Dravidians of South India were also members of the Mande Superclan, as illustrated in the Kannada, Telugu and Tulu, Dravidian tribes that use the terms Mande or Mandi to denote "people or persons". The Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri "God's exalted children".

The Proto-Saharans in honor of great Maa, use the term "ma", to denote greatness, for example Manding: Maga; Sumerian: Mag; and Dravidian: Ma.The ma, element was also used in the names for their rulers e.g., Menes of Egypt; the Mannan of the Dravidians; and the Mansa of the Manding.

The Mal, of the Dravidians is just another form of Ma. Mal, is the Fish. He was the prototype of the Fish god among the Pandyan-Tamils. Ama, Uma, Ammon, Amon, and etc. seems to either refer to Mal's consort.

This goddess Amon is most ancient among the Proto-Saharans.This goddess has many names including Athene or Neith, daughter of Poseidon god of the Sea (again reference to the great Fish-man); and Demeter, the mare headed patroness.

The Mother goddess Amma/Amon of Libya had her cult center at the Oasis of Siwa. In ancient Egypt Amon was depicted as a ram with spheres. The god Amon was taken to Egypt during the New Kingdom.

The Proto-Saharans early used the oxen with sun disc between the horns as the symbol of their God, long before the Egyptians worshipped Hathor. This god represented Amon/Amma of the Dravidians, Egyptians and Manding speaking people.

Engravings in the Sahara, dating back to Neolithic times show the solar disk with "uraei", which was associated with the worship of Ra/Re in Egypt, when worn by the ram it represented Amon of Thebes. There are depictions of this god from the Saharan sites such as Bou Alam and Zenoga. Archaeologists believe that these engravings date back to 4000 BC. This use of a ram god, with different names among the various groups indicate that the Proto-Saharans worshipped the same religion.For example among the Dogon of West Africa, the god Amma is a ram. In Yoruba Amon, means concealed the same as in Egyptian."


Well that covers my Poseidon ancestory explanation in relation to history of Africa and Atlantis and Plato. Any questions?

I closed my book on etrucians when it was proved genetically that they came from aegean sea or anatolia (DNA studies) ...

As for the link to snake :

"Snake Goddess describes a number of figurines of a woman holding a serpent in each hand found during excavation of Minoan archaeological sites in Crete dating from approximately 1600 BCE."

And linked it to myths and legends, i think medusa was a cretan queen or at least an important woman (even a minoan priest) with affinity with snakes...

You should read some stuffs about Çatalhöyük, it is interesting, one is that it was matriarchal like minoan civilization while, reading platon, atlantis was divided between kings... (or there was some machism in platon words ? a queen able to defeat a greek army, would hurt greek males...)

http://www.atlantisquest.com/Myth.html

Here is a great website that I just found and it is basically acknowledging most of what I have said from the origin of ancient Gods being the foundation of the Atlantis story incorporating the Cosmic War and the Titans role in Atlantis, my comparisons of Atlantis to Hell, and associated with Tantalis and Tartessos, hell being 3 ringed, which comes into my parallel theory of these narratives being based on morality and theology. I even connect Plato's work to the Bible in my previous posts.
The parallel of my 2 theories can be seen when Plato says:
Our intention is, that Timaeus, who is the most of an astronomer amongst us, and has made the nature of the universe his special study, should speak first, beginning with the generation of the world and going down to the creation of man; next, I am to receive the men whom he has created of whom some will have profited by the excellent education which you have given them; and then, in accordance with the tale of Solon, and equally with his law, we will bring them into court and make them citizens, as if they were those very Athenians whom the sacred Egyptian record has recovered from oblivion, and thenceforward we will speak of them as Athenians and fellow-citizens.

Here you can see Plato will combine 2 themes, the tale of Solon and also Solons Laws. My other theory illustrates the connection of Solon's Laws to the narratives. Both theories are based in the theme of the virtuous and righteous who do not seek the decadent luxuries but instead seek self fulfillment and therefore reach Heaven. The decadent and immoral will perish in Hell. Plato had started to explore the concepts of a single God (Monad) Creator rather than the Gods of old such as the forming of the world from liasons of Titans and had pondered the concept of judging what justice should be meted out and exactly what constitutes the judgement since the unfair trial and subsequent death of Socrates.

The judgement is it - the end - finito. That's the riddle, we have to work out the judgement.
He even warns Hermocrates: Crit. Friend Hermocrates, you, who are stationed last and have another in front of you, have not lost heart as yet; the gravity of the situation will soon be revealed to you;

The gravity of the situation is he won't get to speak.

Keeping that in mind, that is only the description geographically. The Richat Structure may be hard to notice it's ringed appearance now but 5000 years ago, the sand and erosion that has covered it has made it more obscure to see. Many say you can't see the Nazca lines anywhere but from the air but how many of us believe these were built AFTER we could fly? Ancients didn't need to be in the air.

If Plato could give such an elaborate account of Atlantis how did he know this? How did Solon know this because how did the priest know this? Had anyone been to Atlantis? Seems the Atlanteans came, not vica verca so unless an Atlantean person recalled the island how would the account be got?

He tells us: their names are preserved, but their actions have disappeared by reason of the destruction of those who received the tradition, and the lapse of ages. For when there were any survivors, as I have already said, they were men who dwelt in the mountains; and they were ignorant of the art of writing, and had heard only the names of the chiefs of the land, but very little about their actions. The names they were willing enough to give to their children; but the virtues and the laws of their predecessors, they knew only by obscure traditions; and as they themselves and their children lacked for many generations the necessaries of life, they directed their attention to the supply of their wants, and of them they conversed, to the neglect of events that had happened in times long past; for mythology and the enquiry into antiquity are first introduced into cities when they begin to have leisure, and when they see that the necessaries of life have already been provided, but not before. And this is reason why the names of the ancients have been preserved to us and not their actions.



The golden apples are just metaphors used later, they didn't actually have to be in the West. The important part is the island is part of Atlas' family, which would only place it in this area.

I'll answer your question and answer my own question: If Plato could give such an elaborate account of Atlantis how did he know this? How did Solon know this because how did the priest know this? Had anyone been to Atlantis? Seems the Atlanteans came, not vica verca so unless an Atlantean person recalled the island how would the account be got?

I agree that the Minoans are affiliated with Atlantis. That is, after the generations and during the time they made the expeditions into the Mediterranean Sea, which could indeed account for the stories of the Sea People. The link between Poseidon being in Libya, then going on to be a Bull King in Crete and finally to the God of the Sea as Greeks knew him I am basing that on.

Since the area of the Richat Structure through it's sheer size and magnatude was known, since it is near an old caravan route and based on Nazca being able to know what huge things looked like on the ground that supposedly only one could see from the air, I am theorising it was the place Plato described as being built by Poseidon. That doesn't mean I think it was set out like Plato describes Atlantis as being because as we know, myths are generally based on the core plot, studies from many indigenous cultures who rely on oral stories attest to this.

So even though I think Richat is a known structure of which Egypt had knowledge of what it looked like, I don't think the description of the city is placed there, I think he mixed timeframes through not really knowing the correct history but the summisation of knowledge in 600BC. The original inhabitants of the Sahara and Mauretania in Western Africa as it dried up moved out and this was when they started the expeditions, landed in Crete led by Poseidon, they also moved into Egypt and I wouldn't be suprised if we find Egyptian civilisation older than Sumerian. Poseidon, who had that sort of brotherly grudge with Zeus who had been hid there as a baby, a possible jostling of 2 Gods.

Then I believe Plato has given poetic license to the description of the city by mixing the structure's shape and geographic origins in the time of 3500BC prior to the "Deucalion Flood" with knowledge of an actual place that a description could be given of by an Egyptian of 600BC, which is the palaces at Knossos. As I mentioned this whole theory is very layered and some times may appear contradictory but I'm still sorting through alot of info while making my summary.

I'll have to check out more on Catal Hayak. The snake goddess is interesting, I recall Hercules being described in that manner as a baby holding 2 dead snakes in each hand. The idea you give of Medusa is really good. Also Pythia in ancient Delphi, the Oracle is reminiscent of my readings of Etruscans: Consultants, carrying laurel branches sacred to Apollo approached the temple along the winding upward course of the Sacred Way, bringing a black ram for sacrifice in the forecourt of the temple, and a gift of money for the oracle. Petitioners drew lots to determine the order of admission, but big donations to Apollo could secure them a higher place in line. The ram was first showered with water and observed to ensure that it shivered from the hooves upward, an auspicious sign that the oracular reading could proceed. Upon sacrifice, the animal's organs, particularly its liver, were examined to ensure the signs were favourable. So, the famous Greek Oracle that even Socrates gets his life changing riddle from is again using Etruscan shamanism.


I always found this most interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richat_Structure
The Richat Structure, a prominent circular feature in the Sahara desert of Mauritania near Ouadane, has attracted attention since the earliest space missions because it forms a conspicuous bull's-eye in the otherwise rather featureless expanse of the desert. Described by some as looking like an outsized ammonite in the desert, the structure, which has a diameter of almost 50 kilometres (30 miles), has become a landmark for space shuttle crews. Initially interpreted as a meteorite impact structure because of its high degree of circularity, it is now thought to be a symmetrical uplift (circular anticline or dome) that has been laid bare by erosion. Paleozoic quartzites form the resistant beds outline the structure.

Keep in mind this: http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arc...50407richat.htm In the case of the Richat Structure, it is evident that the force uplifting the area also cut the concentric crater walls. In crater formation, the electrical forces constrain the arc to contact the surface at a 90-degree angle. Because the arc typically consists of one or more pairs of channels rotating around a common axis, a stationary arc will etch a circular crater and, in stratified terrain, will machine out concentric circles.
Plato mentioned how they are natural but look to have been cut by a lathe.