For the past few weeks and months I have been obsessed by Atlantis. I always thought it existed but then changed my mind and felt it was all part of Plato's mind. But in studying through Plato's work lately I can see that some of his work would be based in history. I think he has definitely used some real historic geography and the tale that Solon heard from the Egyptian priests was indeed a true tale. I have my own theory on the whole story Plato is telling in relation to virtue and finding wisdom and how he relates it in Timaeus and Critias but in doing so have stumbled upon what I believe to be the Atlantis he speaks of as described in Timaeus and Critias. The Green Sahara topic here bought me to this conclusion.
Let's look at this part: (from Plato's Timeaus)
In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito. The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet.
This always intrigued me, try and draw a centre hill and then enclose it with 2 circles of land and 3 of water - you can't - unless the last water one has land around it.
I know that the Sahara has been wet, more precisely a shallow ocean, called the Triton Sea. You can read all about it by Herodotus, who we also know Plato had read. As well as the rock art found in the mountains of Tassili, some dated 5000BC.
It was an ocean when sea levels rose and through Gabes the sea went over the Sahara, leaving the Atlas mountains exposed and some other high land, Tassili for one, as it fluctuated some areas were exposed as plains and then may have been covered again, this occuring until a climate change started drying out the Sahara. The sea went over the Sahara and came out where the land is at sea level, which happens to be the west coast of Mauritania. Look at an atlas, you can how this would be. Gabes is in Tunisia.
So this is the scenario 6000-10,000 years ago. Now let's look in there for Atlantis.
"All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia. (actually says in Europe in another version so this is not Tyrrenia Sea area, I believe this is in Spain.)
Leaving the palace and passing out across the three you came to a wall which began at the sea and went all round: this was everywhere distant fifty stadia from the largest zone or harbour, and enclosed the whole, the ends meeting at the mouth of the channel which led to the sea. The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day."
It says: Passing out across the three you came to a wall which went all around. This explains my conundrum before - the 3rd ring of water had to be surrounded by land. Which it is. The island is in an area that is part sea and part land. The ends meeting at the mouth of the channel which led to the sea. Look at the attached photo and you can see how the rock surrounded the rings which is the land I speak of surrounding the 3rd ring and you can see the channel that goes off to the Atlantic. When this was a channel and trading was going, but earlier when Poseidon has only made the hill and rings no one can through because their is no voyages yet. It is only after the generations of children that Poseidon and Cleitio have does trading start, so that accounts for that. When Poseidon was given the land it was when the Greek gods him, Zeus and Hades were given their lots. The land was then inhabitable by humans some time after that. Solon only knows up until the 'first man' Phroneus and the deluge - this is before that. (Between creation and Noah) An inundation before Noah would have been the sea rising so much it caused the Black Sea to become a sea instead of a lake. You have to imagine water in between the rings so only the tops of the rings are showing, the land.
I have heaps more to add to this with numerous links that will show that this is the answer. The idea of Atlantis being in the Sahara is not new but what is new is that this structure has only been seen in recent times due to satellite photographs. It can be no where else. This people, is Atlantis. The Richat Structure in Mauritania.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richat_Structure
The Richat Structure, a prominent circular feature in the Sahara desert of Mauritania near Ouadane, has attracted attention since the earliest space missions because it forms a conspicuous bull's-eye in the otherwise rather featureless expanse of the desert. Described by some as looking like an outsized ammonite in the desert, the structure, which has a diameter of almost 50 kilometres (30 miles), has become a landmark for space shuttle crews. Initially interpreted as a meteorite impact structure because of its high degree of circularity, it is now thought to be a symmetrical uplift (circular anticline or dome) that has been laid bare by erosion. Paleozoic quartzites form the resistant beds outline the structure.
Keep in mind this: http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arc...50407richat.htm In the case of the Richat Structure, it is evident that the force uplifting the area also cut the concentric crater walls. In crater formation, the electrical forces constrain the arc to contact the surface at a 90-degree angle. Because the arc typically consists of one or more pairs of channels rotating around a common axis, a stationary arc will etch a circular crater and, in stratified terrain, will machine out concentric circles.
Plato mentioned how they are natural but look to have been cut by a lathe.
http://googlesightseeing.com/maps?p=396&am...p;t=k&hl=en
That's a Google Earth sightseeing pic that you zoom in and out of, you can see clearly the concentric rings making up a centre and then 2 of land and 3 of water then surrounded by the land and the channel that goes all the way to the sea.
Now the guys in this expedition just need me to show them where to look:
http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/395915
Think about it. This will do for an opening post.
" As for those genealogies of yours which you just now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children. In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven."
Full Version: ATLANTIS FOUND (By Me) In The SAHARA
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History
Considering Platos own description where atlantis was it had to been far away from Africa, and I'm still sure he was talking about Latin Americas as that's basically the only place that really fits. Lotsa other evidence supports this as well.
For more on my theory on that check my site http://atlantis.onestop.net
For more on my theory on that check my site http://atlantis.onestop.net
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Apr 25 2008, 04:26 PM) 
Considering Platos own description where atlantis was it had to been far away from Africa, and I'm still sure he was talking about Latin Americas as that's basically the only place that really fits. Lotsa other evidence supports this as well.
For more on my theory on that check my site http://atlantis.onestop.net
For more on my theory on that check my site http://atlantis.onestop.net
No, Plato is describing Africa:
"Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent."
"Came forth out of the Atlantic", they would have if the headed up to the Mediterranean from Mauritania. By going through the Triton Sea you could navigate into the Atlantic. So, if you came up from Mauritania you would come from the direction of the Atlantic.
There was an island in front of the Strait, do we know front meant of the west of it. Front to an Egyptian could be toward Egypt, so in a south easterly direction of the straits.
Larger than Libya and Asia put together.
Libya was North Africa and Asia was Asia Minor, not overly big but easily as big as the area of the Sahara.
"and was the way to the other islands": islands would be everywhere in an inland sea with the mountains rising out of the sea where they are and higher land also being islands.
"and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean;"
you would pass through this area of islands in the inland sea to the rest of the African continent. Sub Sahara and south of it. Opposite of the Sahara would be the sub Sahara looking west from Egypt.
"for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent."
The surrounding land is the surrounding land around Egypt which would be Africa, the rest of it, all south from sub Sahara, a boundless continent.
If you look at the scene as I have presented it with the Triton Sea in the Sahara it doesn't say anything about being in the Atlantic actually.
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Apr 25 2008, 07:26 AM)
Considering Platos own description where atlantis was it had to been far away from Africa, and I'm still sure he was talking about Latin Americas as that's basically the only place that really fits. Lotsa other evidence supports this as well.
For more on my theory on that check my site http://atlantis.onestop.net
For more on my theory on that check my site http://atlantis.onestop.net
In this reconstruction of the ecumene of Herodotus, you can see that they had no knowledge of the Americas of that time (which weren't latin then).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Herodot...orld_map-en.svg
QUOTE (Emma_Acid_88 @ Apr 25 2008, 06:53 PM)
In this reconstruction of the ecumene of Herodotus, you can see that they had no knowledge of the Americas of that time (which weren't latin then).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Herodot...orld_map-en.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Herodot...orld_map-en.svg
True, also Plato did not believe even Herodotus that a man sailed around Africa, (Libya) let alone made it over to another continent.
QUOTE (weareallsuckers @ Apr 25 2008, 09:15 AM)
No, Plato is describing Africa:
"Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent."
"Came forth out of the Atlantic", they would have if the headed up to the Mediterranean from Mauritania. By going through the Triton Sea you could navigate into the Atlantic. So, if you came up from Mauritania you would come from the direction of the Atlantic.
There was an island in front of the Strait, do we know front meant of the west of it. Front to an Egyptian could be toward Egypt, so in a south easterly direction of the straits.
Larger than Libya and Asia put together.
Libya was North Africa and Asia was Asia Minor, not overly big but easily as big as the area of the Sahara.
"and was the way to the other islands": islands would be everywhere in an inland sea with the mountains rising out of the sea where they are and higher land also being islands.
"and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean;"
you would pass through this area of islands in the inland sea to the rest of the African continent. Sub Sahara and south of it. Opposite of the Sahara would be the sub Sahara looking west from Egypt.
"for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent."
The surrounding land is the surrounding land around Egypt which would be Africa, the rest of it, all south from sub Sahara, a boundless continent.
If you look at the scene as I have presented it with the Triton Sea in the Sahara it doesn't say anything about being in the Atlantic actually.
"Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent."
"Came forth out of the Atlantic", they would have if the headed up to the Mediterranean from Mauritania. By going through the Triton Sea you could navigate into the Atlantic. So, if you came up from Mauritania you would come from the direction of the Atlantic.
There was an island in front of the Strait, do we know front meant of the west of it. Front to an Egyptian could be toward Egypt, so in a south easterly direction of the straits.
Larger than Libya and Asia put together.
Libya was North Africa and Asia was Asia Minor, not overly big but easily as big as the area of the Sahara.
"and was the way to the other islands": islands would be everywhere in an inland sea with the mountains rising out of the sea where they are and higher land also being islands.
"and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean;"
you would pass through this area of islands in the inland sea to the rest of the African continent. Sub Sahara and south of it. Opposite of the Sahara would be the sub Sahara looking west from Egypt.
"for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent."
The surrounding land is the surrounding land around Egypt which would be Africa, the rest of it, all south from sub Sahara, a boundless continent.
If you look at the scene as I have presented it with the Triton Sea in the Sahara it doesn't say anything about being in the Atlantic actually.
Hi WAAS,
Cards on the table..... as you know I do not believe that Atlantis is anything other than a good story, told by a Master Craftman of that trade.
But... I do like to read ideas and theories surrounding the legend.
You have made a very good case for your interpretation of Timaeus and Critias and I applaud you for that. This is the first time that I have read of the link with the “Eye of Africa” and the local artefact evidence shows a long period of human habitation at this site. The geological structure is very compelling and if indeed there was a Triton Sea that filled the area then I would accept that this was the basis for the legend, relocated beyond the Pillars of Hercules in the re-telling.
Certainly the idea that he was talking of South America is complete nonsense, and completely unnecessary as a foundation for the legend itself.
I am going to do some research at the USGS and BGS, and if I get time will visit the Spanish Geological Survey records office in Madrid to see if it is possible to verify that the “Eye of Africa” would have been surrounded by water. It will be fascinating to find out whether your theory holds “water” (forgive the pun).
QUOTE (keithisco @ Apr 25 2008, 07:47 PM)
Thanks for your support.
I also think that most of Critias was not factual, I do think however he has placed the Atlanteans in a true geographical area that was a civilisation capable of everything he says. I personally think the tale of the war is a tale of good vs evil and is actually Solon's life story into a war but that's another topic I have. So in essence I don't think Atlantis was as real as he wrote but real enough to base the beginning of his tale on.
Similar to your link is this one:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=prq6yk...hl=en#PPA172,M1
This should be page 172, you can see how there is an explanation via an Arab that can also link the Greeks with the Egyptians and the Dravidians. I was trying to find out where there was info on this part as Plato mentions this. That the Egyptians and Greeks have the same ancestry.
It also puts into perspective my idea but without the Richat Structure mentioned.
QUOTE (keithisco @ Apr 25 2008, 07:44 PM)
Hi WAAS,
Cards on the table..... as you know I do not believe that Atlantis is anything other than a good story, told by a Master Craftman of that trade.
But... I do like to read ideas and theories surrounding the legend.
You have made a very good case for your interpretation of Timaeus and Critias and I applaud you for that. This is the first time that I have read of the link with the “Eye of Africa” and the local artefact evidence shows a long period of human habitation at this site. The geological structure is very compelling and if indeed there was a Triton Sea that filled the area then I would accept that this was the basis for the legend, relocated beyond the Pillars of Hercules in the re-telling.
Certainly the idea that he was talking of South America is complete nonsense, and completely unnecessary as a foundation for the legend itself.
I am going to do some research at the USGS and BGS, and if I get time will visit the Spanish Geological Survey records office in Madrid to see if it is possible to verify that the “Eye of Africa” would have been surrounded by water. It will be fascinating to find out whether your theory holds “water” (forgive the pun).
Cards on the table..... as you know I do not believe that Atlantis is anything other than a good story, told by a Master Craftman of that trade.
But... I do like to read ideas and theories surrounding the legend.
You have made a very good case for your interpretation of Timaeus and Critias and I applaud you for that. This is the first time that I have read of the link with the “Eye of Africa” and the local artefact evidence shows a long period of human habitation at this site. The geological structure is very compelling and if indeed there was a Triton Sea that filled the area then I would accept that this was the basis for the legend, relocated beyond the Pillars of Hercules in the re-telling.
Certainly the idea that he was talking of South America is complete nonsense, and completely unnecessary as a foundation for the legend itself.
I am going to do some research at the USGS and BGS, and if I get time will visit the Spanish Geological Survey records office in Madrid to see if it is possible to verify that the “Eye of Africa” would have been surrounded by water. It will be fascinating to find out whether your theory holds “water” (forgive the pun).
Thanks for that, that would be interesting to find out. Appears it was since the rock art is showing signs of it but it would be good to have some sort of official answer.
My Blog: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...d=1637&st=0
This is more difficult than i expected. On-line research is not giving me much info.
Obviously the limestone and karst is conclusive of sub-sea immersion, it's the timescales that are giving me the greatest trouble.
Oh well, back to research, I think the Madrid office is open tomorrow , if so then I will get myself down there and quiz their record-keepers.
Thanks WAAS, this is going to be a very interesting investigation. Will post more as I discover more.
PS. I have logged date and time of your theory as posted here, just in case anybody runs off to Discovery channel with your idea claiming it as their own!!
Obviously the limestone and karst is conclusive of sub-sea immersion, it's the timescales that are giving me the greatest trouble.
Oh well, back to research, I think the Madrid office is open tomorrow , if so then I will get myself down there and quiz their record-keepers.
Thanks WAAS, this is going to be a very interesting investigation. Will post more as I discover more.
PS. I have logged date and time of your theory as posted here, just in case anybody runs off to Discovery channel with your idea claiming it as their own!!
QUOTE (keithisco @ Apr 25 2008, 11:44 PM)
This is more difficult than i expected. On-line research is not giving me much info.
Obviously the limestone and karst is conclusive of sub-sea immersion, it's the timescales that are giving me the greatest trouble.
Oh well, back to research, I think the Madrid office is open tomorrow , if so then I will get myself down there and quiz their record-keepers.
Thanks WAAS, this is going to be a very interesting investigation. Will post more as I discover more.
Obviously the limestone and karst is conclusive of sub-sea immersion, it's the timescales that are giving me the greatest trouble.
Oh well, back to research, I think the Madrid office is open tomorrow , if so then I will get myself down there and quiz their record-keepers.
Thanks WAAS, this is going to be a very interesting investigation. Will post more as I discover more.
Thanks!
The timescale is a bit of a problem, but I believe it would have had to have been between 10,000BC and 3000BC. The Sahara dried up completely c. 3000BC and pre 10,000BC would be too early in the cases of human history and Plato.
Most info on rising sea levels on the internet are very inconsistent. The rising of the Med. into the Black Sea at 5000BC is a time that I think would be suitable.
This very old Chinese map of Africa shows something that may correlate:
The "lake" in the center is probably just an over exaggeration, but the round thing in the middle of it is interesting. Not a perfect match, but interesting nonetheless.
The "lake" in the center is probably just an over exaggeration, but the round thing in the middle of it is interesting. Not a perfect match, but interesting nonetheless.
QUOTE
PS. I have logged date and time of your theory as posted here, just in case anybody runs off to Discovery channel with your idea claiming it as their own!!
Thats Keith!! I was a bit worried about that myself. lol
QUOTE (Moonie2012 @ Apr 25 2008, 11:54 PM)
This very old Chinese map of Africa shows something that may correlate:
The "lake" in the center is probably just an over exaggeration, but the round thing in the middle of it is interesting. Not a perfect match, but interesting nonetheless.
The "lake" in the center is probably just an over exaggeration, but the round thing in the middle of it is interesting. Not a perfect match, but interesting nonetheless.
WOW. That is good. That map fits great since if you look at old maps from Herodotus you can see that the end of the Arabian Peninsula is in line with what they knew to be the bottom of Africa. Thanks for that! And look at that circle.........
Supposedly it was created in 1389 and copied from an older rock carving...here's more about it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2446907.stm
For the record, I'm skeptical that that's Atlantis, but sometimes the best way to hide something is to put it right out in the open.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2446907.stm
For the record, I'm skeptical that that's Atlantis, but sometimes the best way to hide something is to put it right out in the open.
you could be on to something here!!!http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1195560/posts
QUOTE
RABAT (Reuters) - The remains of a prehistoric town believed to date back 15,000 years and belong to an ancient Berber civilization have been discovered in Western Sahara, Moroccan state media said on Thursday. A team of Moroccan scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas deep in the desert of the Morocco-administered territory.
The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the town of Aousserd in northeastern Western Sahara.
The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilization is believed to date back only some 9,000 years.
"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-years estimate judging by the style of the engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustapha Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian, told Reuters.
The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the town of Aousserd in northeastern Western Sahara.
The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilization is believed to date back only some 9,000 years.
"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-years estimate judging by the style of the engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustapha Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian, told Reuters.
http://www.andantetravels.co.uk/default.cfm/tour.239
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=108946
QUOTE
http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000849.html
One of the most ancient civilizations on earth began in the Sahara before the existance of Atlantis. According to sources, the Zingh Empire existed about 20,000 to 15,000 years ago and is the parent of Egypt, TaSeti, Nubia, Kush, Wagadu-Nok, East Indian Civilization and others.
The Sahara and much of West and East Africa in protohistoric times was wet, rainy, very green and had a giant inland sea. On this sea, ships sailed and moved from place to place selling goods and trading. The region also had large areas of fertile lands where villages, towns and cities existed.
According to many sources (Blisshords Communications, Zingh Empire, "Mobetter News," The History of the African Standard, South Holland, Illinois.), the Zingh Empire was the first culture to build an international empire from West Africa to the Middle East (Syria, Turkey, ect.). The Zingh Empire also established the red, black and green flag (which is still the colors of African and some Middle Eastern nations).
The Zingh Empire was the parent civilization on earth and it was from the Zingh Empire and the Sahara itself that the earliest forms of culture and language spread from the Sahara to India, East Asia, Australia, the South Pacific, the Americas. In fact, years ago historians from Africa pointed out that groups from the Sahara migrated to the Americas and that some American Indian groups are related to Africans of the Sahara.
Language and advanced culture also came out of the Zingh Empire and so did tools like the..
One of the most ancient civilizations on earth began in the Sahara before the existance of Atlantis. According to sources, the Zingh Empire existed about 20,000 to 15,000 years ago and is the parent of Egypt, TaSeti, Nubia, Kush, Wagadu-Nok, East Indian Civilization and others.
The Sahara and much of West and East Africa in protohistoric times was wet, rainy, very green and had a giant inland sea. On this sea, ships sailed and moved from place to place selling goods and trading. The region also had large areas of fertile lands where villages, towns and cities existed.
According to many sources (Blisshords Communications, Zingh Empire, "Mobetter News," The History of the African Standard, South Holland, Illinois.), the Zingh Empire was the first culture to build an international empire from West Africa to the Middle East (Syria, Turkey, ect.). The Zingh Empire also established the red, black and green flag (which is still the colors of African and some Middle Eastern nations).
The Zingh Empire was the parent civilization on earth and it was from the Zingh Empire and the Sahara itself that the earliest forms of culture and language spread from the Sahara to India, East Asia, Australia, the South Pacific, the Americas. In fact, years ago historians from Africa pointed out that groups from the Sahara migrated to the Americas and that some American Indian groups are related to Africans of the Sahara.
Language and advanced culture also came out of the Zingh Empire and so did tools like the..
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemD...ookid~7283.aspx
Swimming in the Sahara
The world's largest desert was once a green Eden. One day it will be again
http://discovermagazine.com/2006/oct/sahar...savanna-climate
QUOTE (crystal sage @ Apr 26 2008, 12:17 AM)
Hi Crystal Sage........thanks for the links. Dig deep, I'm sure you will find some more. I will particularly look more into the 15,000 year old Moroccan ruins.
As the sea dried up the outlets to the Atlantic would have been last to go imo, the currents out of these was strong. Possibly the Olmecs travelled from the currents to South America before 3000BC when the Sahara became totally desert. You know I am a great believer in ancient sea travel, does add up.
Keithisco: The pic CS has showed of the swimming in Sahara, the accompanying article states from 10,500 to 5,500 years ago the Sahara would be able to have people swimming in it.
Also the Richat Structure has been eroded - erosion could only come from water generally, so possibly the middle was domed rather than flat at one point. Just to correlate the hill in the middle of the rings.
.....and let's not forget mention of elephants from Plato.
Atlantis, btw, was not some super advanced civilisation, it was more advance from trading with gold palaces, but this is underlying to Plato's comparison of a virtuous Athens who did not use or need gold to one (Atlantis)that used it in abundance highlighting his allegory for extravagence and indulgence to virtuous and humbleness and how virtue will win over indulgence. See Croesus story.
I have nothing to contribute but this is an excellent thread.
QUOTE (mr nobody @ Apr 26 2008, 12:54 AM)
I have nothing to contribute but this is an excellent thread.
Cool Mr Nobody, glad you are enjoying it.
QUOTE (mr nobody @ Apr 26 2008, 12:54 AM)
I have nothing to contribute but this is an excellent thread.
I second that and I'm proud of you my cool aussie chicky babe.....You go girl......
This is a very interesting thread!
I saw the topic name and went "urrrgh not another one!", but was pleasantly suprised!
Im currently doing a module on Atlantis and Utopias at University and am finding it really interesting. I bet my lecturer would be interested in this!
I saw the topic name and went "urrrgh not another one!", but was pleasantly suprised!
Im currently doing a module on Atlantis and Utopias at University and am finding it really interesting. I bet my lecturer would be interested in this!
QUOTE (ArtemisArcheress @ Apr 26 2008, 01:32 AM)
This is a very interesting thread!
I saw the topic name and went "urrrgh not another one!", but was pleasantly suprised!
Im currently doing a module on Atlantis and Utopias at University and am finding it really interesting. I bet my lecturer would be interested in this!
I saw the topic name and went "urrrgh not another one!", but was pleasantly suprised!
Im currently doing a module on Atlantis and Utopias at University and am finding it really interesting. I bet my lecturer would be interested in this!
Great, thanks. I purposely kept the big suprise of Richat out until the end of my post....hehe
Now: OK, so where's the flood? The sinking of Atlantis, some of you are thinking.....(and I'm sure your lecturer will ask..)
well, there is no flood or sinking of Atlantis. I do think at the time of the Black Sea flooding it would have risen the sea water possibly sufficient enough to cover the Richat Structure, which may be then factual that 'Atlantis' did in fact sink. Also Plato mentions how Solon is told that basically Greece is just a skeleton and there has been inundations previously, enough to leave just the rock outcrop of the Acropolis and to wash away alot of Grece's ancient mainland. So I think flooding happened but I don't think that the sinking of Atlantis occurred as it is told.
Let's look at this last paragraph of Critias:
Such was the vast power which the god settled in the lost island of Atlantis; and this he afterwards directed against our land for the following reasons, as tradition tells: For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them. By such reflections and by the continuance in them of a divine nature, the qualities which we have described grew and increased among them; but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power. Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows: (end)
You may note in the texts that their is no war played out, but Athens gets glory for saving everyone from slavery (bit like Moses) inside the Pillars. Plato writes: "this war I am going to describe." but no actual war is described. The war is the telling of the ways of each civilisation.
The answer is the story of the Bible. (Old Testament) The allegory Plato has used is to denote that the Athenians became immoral, full of avarice but could not see it themselves. Now what happens when the people get immoral in the Bible? God punishes them with a flood.
The end of the above paragraph says:
Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve....
We can see that Atlantis coming and the consequent flood was Gods punishment to the Athenians.
Plato was very into the idea of one god and the Pentateuch. (Old Testment). The Monad.
So there is no need to find a flood in the Sahara, just the basis for Atlantis, geographic in details (since he himself tells it as being fact) to start the story off.
PS: Huge inundations would have been present with the weather patterns during a wet Sahara, being more humid. I live where we have wet and dry - it can rain for months. It's in the tropics, as the Sahara is.
On Mt Etna: Research published in 2006 suggests that this occurred around 6000 BC, and caused a huge tsunami which left its mark in several places in the eastern Mediterranean
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Etna
We only have to look at a map again to see how close Sicily is to Gabes in Tunisia. I believe that the 6000BC eruption closed off the sea entrance at Gabes with the 'shoal of mud' Plato mentions.
Also earthquakes have ravaged Greece over time with the Anatolian Plate being responsible for that so earthquakes and tsunamis would have been familiar to Plato and they can explain the loss of much of the Greek coastline. I am not aware of an exact earthquake to fit into Plato's story but once again, I think the earthquake and subsequent loss of all Athens warlike men in a body and the sinking of Atlantis is allegory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Etna
We only have to look at a map again to see how close Sicily is to Gabes in Tunisia. I believe that the 6000BC eruption closed off the sea entrance at Gabes with the 'shoal of mud' Plato mentions.
Also earthquakes have ravaged Greece over time with the Anatolian Plate being responsible for that so earthquakes and tsunamis would have been familiar to Plato and they can explain the loss of much of the Greek coastline. I am not aware of an exact earthquake to fit into Plato's story but once again, I think the earthquake and subsequent loss of all Athens warlike men in a body and the sinking of Atlantis is allegory.
Waas,
You disappoint me so!
You are certainly looking for something that never existed. Mark my words.
Besides, did I read where you wrote that the so - called "sea" in the Sahara would have been navigable? Pardon me, but no sea existed there alongside any human occupation, as far as I'm (or you are) aware.
The water that existed during the Holocne when the referenced carvings were made was fresh. The dried lakebeds are still there today. In fact, the entire Sahara is dotted with dried lake beds. It is known that the Sahara once experienced monsoons.
No way you could have sailed from the Med. into one of these lakes.
For future reference: The Geoarchaeology of the Western Sahara Desert.
Harte
You disappoint me so!
You are certainly looking for something that never existed. Mark my words.
Besides, did I read where you wrote that the so - called "sea" in the Sahara would have been navigable? Pardon me, but no sea existed there alongside any human occupation, as far as I'm (or you are) aware.
The water that existed during the Holocne when the referenced carvings were made was fresh. The dried lakebeds are still there today. In fact, the entire Sahara is dotted with dried lake beds. It is known that the Sahara once experienced monsoons.
No way you could have sailed from the Med. into one of these lakes.
For future reference: The Geoarchaeology of the Western Sahara Desert.
Harte
QUOTE (weareallsuckers @ Apr 25 2008, 09:47 AM)
Hi Crystal Sage........thanks for the links. Dig deep, I'm sure you will find some more. I will particularly look more into the 15,000 year old Moroccan ruins.
As the sea dried up the outlets to the Atlantic would have been last to go imo, the currents out of these was strong. Possibly the Olmecs travelled from the currents to South America before 3000BC when the Sahara became totally desert. You know I am a great believer in ancient sea travel, does add up.
Keithisco: The pic CS has showed of the swimming in Sahara, the accompanying article states from 10,500 to 5,500 years ago the Sahara would be able to have people swimming in it.
Also the Richat Structure has been eroded - erosion could only come from water generally, so possibly the middle was domed rather than flat at one point. Just to correlate the hill in the middle of the rings.
.....and let's not forget mention of elephants from Plato.
Atlantis, btw, was not some super advanced civilisation, it was more advance from trading with gold palaces, but this is underlying to Plato's comparison of a virtuous Athens who did not use or need gold to one (Atlantis)that used it in abundance highlighting his allegory for extravagence and indulgence to virtuous and humbleness and how virtue will win over indulgence. See Croesus story.
As the sea dried up the outlets to the Atlantic would have been last to go imo, the currents out of these was strong. Possibly the Olmecs travelled from the currents to South America before 3000BC when the Sahara became totally desert. You know I am a great believer in ancient sea travel, does add up.
Keithisco: The pic CS has showed of the swimming in Sahara, the accompanying article states from 10,500 to 5,500 years ago the Sahara would be able to have people swimming in it.
Also the Richat Structure has been eroded - erosion could only come from water generally, so possibly the middle was domed rather than flat at one point. Just to correlate the hill in the middle of the rings.
.....and let's not forget mention of elephants from Plato.
Atlantis, btw, was not some super advanced civilisation, it was more advance from trading with gold palaces, but this is underlying to Plato's comparison of a virtuous Athens who did not use or need gold to one (Atlantis)that used it in abundance highlighting his allegory for extravagence and indulgence to virtuous and humbleness and how virtue will win over indulgence. See Croesus story.
The Olmecs were not from South America, but rather North America on the eastern shore of Mexico around Tobasco.
QUOTE (Harte @ Apr 25 2008, 11:52 AM)
Waas,
You disappoint me so!
You are certainly looking for something that never existed. Mark my words.
Besides, did I read where you wrote that the so - called "sea" in the Sahara would have been navigable? Pardon me, but no sea existed there alongside any human occupation, as far as I'm (or you are) aware.
The water that existed during the Holocne when the referenced carvings were made was fresh. The dried lakebeds are still there today. In fact, the entire Sahara is dotted with dried lake beds. It is known that the Sahara once experienced monsoons.
No way you could have sailed from the Med. into one of these lakes.
For future reference: The Geoarchaeology of the Western Sahara Desert.
Harte
You disappoint me so!
You are certainly looking for something that never existed. Mark my words.
Besides, did I read where you wrote that the so - called "sea" in the Sahara would have been navigable? Pardon me, but no sea existed there alongside any human occupation, as far as I'm (or you are) aware.
The water that existed during the Holocne when the referenced carvings were made was fresh. The dried lakebeds are still there today. In fact, the entire Sahara is dotted with dried lake beds. It is known that the Sahara once experienced monsoons.
No way you could have sailed from the Med. into one of these lakes.
For future reference: The Geoarchaeology of the Western Sahara Desert.
Harte
I'm going to have to agree with Hart here, that any sea in the Sahara outdated humanity. But lets explore this further. Is there any evidence that this site is an ancient civilization, like artifacts that have been dated? The area seems to be a natural geological formation, and that in of itself would not be considered evidence.
QUOTE (Harte @ Apr 26 2008, 02:52 AM)
Waas,
You disappoint me so!
You are certainly looking for something that never existed. Mark my words.
Besides, did I read where you wrote that the so - called "sea" in the Sahara would have been navigable? Pardon me, but no sea existed there alongside any human occupation, as far as I'm (or you are) aware.
The water that existed during the Holocne when the referenced carvings were made was fresh. The dried lakebeds are still there today. In fact, the entire Sahara is dotted with dried lake beds. It is known that the Sahara once experienced monsoons.
No way you could have sailed from the Med. into one of these lakes.
For future reference: The Geoarchaeology of the Western Sahara Desert.
Harte
You disappoint me so!
You are certainly looking for something that never existed. Mark my words.
Besides, did I read where you wrote that the so - called "sea" in the Sahara would have been navigable? Pardon me, but no sea existed there alongside any human occupation, as far as I'm (or you are) aware.
The water that existed during the Holocne when the referenced carvings were made was fresh. The dried lakebeds are still there today. In fact, the entire Sahara is dotted with dried lake beds. It is known that the Sahara once experienced monsoons.
No way you could have sailed from the Med. into one of these lakes.
For future reference: The Geoarchaeology of the Western Sahara Desert.
Harte
Hello Harte...I've been waiting for you...
OK, so the water was fresh. I still maintain the lowest point from Tunisia to Mauritania held water enough for people to travel through and reach the Atlantic.
Your link is a study into Morocco and Western Sahara, it doesn't show Tassili or Ouarane. It mentions the Mauritania coast and says it shows it was wetter.....brilliant.
Herodotus mentions it. Monsoons can make alot of rain, I live in the tropics, we can have rain for months on end, everything floods. Severe monsoons at a frequent interval while sea levels were higher than usual could result in flooding in this area. The monsoons were severe because of the climate change around there at this time. Sorry, your tests in Western Sahara is not proof to me. Show me the Grand Erg Oriental never had water running through it and I'll think about it some more.
Aztec Warrior: My mistake, I knew the Olmecs were in Mexico, Harte can attest that I spent ages once debating the Olmecs coming from Africa.
The people of the Tassili were there, swimming, hunting crocs, why would people of 5000BC only be in one place? I also think it's hard to find things under all the sand that has covered many areas. And the fact no one goes there much, this structure has basically only been known about since satellite photos.
Also my theory only identifies this spot with a geographical position and some things from Plato's tale. So whether their is an actual culture that fits into Plato's tale is not really a concern of mine. He describes where Atlantis is, which I identified and the structure of the rings and surrounding land as befitting the description. Trading went on there. From then on I don't think Plato is telling us facts. I don't even think there was a war.
I will look into yours and Harte's points more though......
QUOTE (weareallsuckers @ Apr 25 2008, 12:46 PM)
Also my theory only identifies this spot with a geographical position and some things from Plato's tale. So whether their is an actual culture that fits into Plato's tale is not really a concern of mine. He describes where Atlantis is, which I identified and the structure of the rings and surrounding land as befitting the description. Trading went on there. From then on I don't think Plato is telling us facts. I don't even think there was a war.
I will look into yours and Harte's points more though......
I will look into yours and Harte's points more though......
I'm confused. Do you believe Plato or not? Not that I necessarily believe or dis-believe you on this whole topic, but this odd "I believe the bits of Plato that are useful and ignore the ones that aren't" is a classic in the Pseduo-History playbook.
--Jaylemurph
QUOTE (weareallsuckers @ Apr 25 2008, 12:46 PM)
Hello Harte...I've been waiting for you...
OK, so the water was fresh. I still maintain the lowest point from Tunisia to Mauritania held water enough for people to travel through and reach the Atlantic.
OK, so the water was fresh. I still maintain the lowest point from Tunisia to Mauritania held water enough for people to travel through and reach the Atlantic.
And why do you think this?
QUOTE (weareallsuckers @ Apr 25 2008, 12:46 PM)
The people of the Tassili were there, swimming, hunting crocs, why would people of 5000BC only be in one place? I also think it's hard to find things under all the sand that has covered many areas. And the fact no one goes there much, this structure has basically only been known about since satellite photos.
There is no reason at all they would stay in one place. I agree that there is probably much to be found in the Sahara, if you don't kill yourself digging there!
As I said, the place is dotted with ancient dried lake beds. It's long been known that the Sahara was more like a savannah several thousand years ago.
I'm sure if you looked, you'd find petroglyphs of animals all over the place. Remains of villages as well.
One of the many things you won't find, however, is Atlantis because Atlantis never, ever existed.
You won't find Brobdingnag either.
Harte
QUOTE (Harte @ Apr 25 2008, 02:33 PM)
One of the many things you won't find, however, is Atlantis because Atlantis never, ever existed.
You should be careful saying things like that (unless you know something the rest of the planet doesn't). Statements like that have a way of coming back and biting people in the ass.
QUOTE (Moonie2012 @ Apr 25 2008, 02:45 PM)
You should be careful saying things like that (unless you know something the rest of the planet doesn't). Statements like that have a way of coming back and biting people in the ass.
My ass is just fine, thank you, and Atlantis still never existed.
Unless, that is, you refer to the Atlantis Resort and Casino in the Bahamas.
There exists absolutely no evidence whatsoever, not a single whit of evidence, that would indicate otherwise. None. Nada. Nil.
Never, ever existed. Never, ever existed. Didn't exist. Nonexistent. A non-place. A location without coordinates. The empty set. Imaginary.
A place that wasn't. Never there. Less than mythological. Devoid of physical actuality. Innocent of being.
This is an ex-Parrot.
Camenbert, perhaps?
I...think it's a bit runnier than you'll like it, sir.
The cat's eaten it.
You...do *have* some cheese, don't you?
Of course, sir. It's a cheese shop, sir. We've got--
Have you in fact got any cheese here at all.
Yes, sir.
Really?
(pause) No. Not really, sir.
You haven't.
No sir. Not a scrap. I was deliberately wasting your time, sir.
Harte
We'll see.
See, what you have to remember Moonie, is that Harte's not the messiah. He's a very naughty boy.
--Jaylemurph
--Jaylemurph
QUOTE (jaylemurph @ Apr 25 2008, 09:01 PM)
See, what you have to remember Moonie, is that Harte's not the messiah. He's a very naughty boy.
Couldn't have put it better myself.......
(This thread never expected the Spanish Inquisition)
(although it WAS predictable)
................................................................................
.
PS........Nice work WAAS.....VERY nice work.....have read through the thread....and just letting it perculate...
QUOTE (weareallsuckers @ Apr 25 2008, 03:54 PM)
PS: Huge inundations would have been present with the weather patterns during a wet Sahara, being more humid. I live where we have wet and dry - it can rain for months. It's in the tropics, as the Sahara is.
A very large proportion of the Sahara is not in the tropics, it is mainly sub-tropical.
QUOTE (jaylemurph @ Apr 26 2008, 05:05 AM)
I'm confused. Do you believe Plato or not? Not that I necessarily believe or dis-believe you on this whole topic, but this odd "I believe the bits of Plato that are useful and ignore the ones that aren't" is a classic in the Pseduo-History playbook.
--Jaylemurph
--Jaylemurph
Confusion is good, it makes your senses work.....
Do I believe Plato or not? Well the answer is yes and no, I believe his 2 works are such an enigma because of that reason, is it true or not? It's both true and false. That's why I have jumped ship and back, it is not a simple yes or no answer. You need to read between the lines. He has made his tale up of some true events and known history of man but then to get his message across he has combined it with elements of the Bible and fiction. In Timaeus he not bother to have written 'this is a true tale' etc, which it does through it, if there was absolutely no basis in truth, you have to distinguish what is truth and what is fiction in it and then it makes sense. The 2 parts are quite different too and his telling of the description of it geographically is included in the Creation and Timaeus part, while the war and description of them is in the Critias part. The 2 works each have their own life. It's actual very Biblical, the part about the Atlanteans killing the bull and tossing blood on the house, bit like Passover or some other religious theme and the end paragraph I highlighted is very symbolic of the Bible, to punish so they learn. It's such a mix of everything - it's neither all truth or all fiction, it's a mixture and I have spent ages going thru both texts and determining which parts lie in truth and which parts lie in fiction. I mean, I have not glanced over these 2 texts, I have literally turned them inside out and this is the conclusion I have come to, whether you want to join my boat ride is another thing. It's not a matter of ignoring the useless and believing the useful, I am not so shallow, I have genuinely disected these texts and have come up with an answer. That's why I can say it exists and also say that I still believe Solon's life is the moral story. It combines truth, fiction, the Bible, morality and a message for us all........
PS: My Blog here has a bit of a run down of my thoughts on it all.
QUOTE (bee @ Apr 26 2008, 07:18 AM)
Couldn't have put it better myself.......
(This thread never expected the Spanish Inquisition)
(although it WAS predictable)
................................................................................
.
PS........Nice work WAAS.....VERY nice work.....have read through the thread....and just letting it perculate...
(This thread never expected the Spanish Inquisition)
(although it WAS predictable)
................................................................................
.
PS........Nice work WAAS.....VERY nice work.....have read through the thread....and just letting it perculate...
Hi Bee!
Perculate...lol
Predictable...lol
Glad you are enjoying it Bee. Lots to look into hey?
QUOTE (Harte @ Apr 26 2008, 05:33 AM)
And why do you think this?
There is no reason at all they would stay in one place. I agree that there is probably much to be found in the Sahara, if you don't kill yourself digging there!
As I said, the place is dotted with ancient dried lake beds. It's long been known that the Sahara was more like a savannah several thousand years ago.
I'm sure if you looked, you'd find petroglyphs of animals all over the place. Remains of villages as well.
One of the many things you won't find, however, is Atlantis because Atlantis never, ever existed.
You won't find Brobdingnag either.
Harte
There is no reason at all they would stay in one place. I agree that there is probably much to be found in the Sahara, if you don't kill yourself digging there!
As I said, the place is dotted with ancient dried lake beds. It's long been known that the Sahara was more like a savannah several thousand years ago.
I'm sure if you looked, you'd find petroglyphs of animals all over the place. Remains of villages as well.
One of the many things you won't find, however, is Atlantis because Atlantis never, ever existed.
You won't find Brobdingnag either.
Harte
I think this because it makes perfect sense. You only have to look at a map to see it. I came to the conclusion of where it was BEFORE I saw that there were signs of it being watery, actually the Green sahara topic led me to this. Then finding the Richat Structure - well it just fell into place. I have not come up with this off the top of my head, as I just explained to J - I have spent hours and hours going over the 2 texts. Atlantis never existed in the way it's being portrayed these days, as some advanced civilisation etc, in my way of thinking, it was quite real, to a point.
You should not be so quick to rubbish it. Plato was clever, it is not just a story about the politics of the day. You cannot be certain it is absolutely all made up, you are just parroting what others have said....Did Plato tell you it was all made up? No...so how do you know? You are just believing someone else who told you that.
I may be overthinking....but as you said, at least I am thinking for myself.
I have a Blog here that sort of tries to explain the 2 topics I have and what I make of it all.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97985&page=1
http://www.satimagingcorp.com/svc/archaeology.html
http://www.satimagingcorp.com/svc/archaeology.html
QUOTE
http://www.edgarcayce.org/ancient_mysterie...ient_index.html
Edgar Cayce: ...In those periods when the first change had come in the position of the land, when the Nile (or Nole, then) emptied into what is now the Atlantic Ocean, on the Congo end of the country. What is now as the Sahara was a fertile land... As if to confirm some of the above, an article published in Science (August 1986), reported that the Shuttle Imaging Radar from the Space Shuttle had discovered previously unknown river valleys beneath the driest part of the Sahara. Through satellite imaging and on-site arch aeological investigations, it appeared as though the present day Nile had changed its course, once flowing across the Sahara, through Africa, and into the Atlantic Ocean! Only time will tell how many more of the readings historical claims regarding such places as Atlantis, ancient Egypt, and ancient Persia, will eventually be verified. The A.R.E./Edgar Cayce Foundation's recent satellite project was the first comprehensive analysis of all subsurface features around Bimini. The project covered 630 square miles and imaging was done via the IKONOS satellite. Via special processing, imaging was able to look at the seabed contours at a depth of approximately 75 feet. The precise location of all features that were identified is easily determined via special program.
Edgar Cayce: ...In those periods when the first change had come in the position of the land, when the Nile (or Nole, then) emptied into what is now the Atlantic Ocean, on the Congo end of the country. What is now as the Sahara was a fertile land... As if to confirm some of the above, an article published in Science (August 1986), reported that the Shuttle Imaging Radar from the Space Shuttle had discovered previously unknown river valleys beneath the driest part of the Sahara. Through satellite imaging and on-site arch aeological investigations, it appeared as though the present day Nile had changed its course, once flowing across the Sahara, through Africa, and into the Atlantic Ocean! Only time will tell how many more of the readings historical claims regarding such places as Atlantis, ancient Egypt, and ancient Persia, will eventually be verified. The A.R.E./Edgar Cayce Foundation's recent satellite project was the first comprehensive analysis of all subsurface features around Bimini. The project covered 630 square miles and imaging was done via the IKONOS satellite. Via special processing, imaging was able to look at the seabed contours at a depth of approximately 75 feet. The precise location of all features that were identified is easily determined via special program.
QUOTE
Desert and ice
http://satellitediscoveries.typepad.com/we...chaeology_news/
Images from US space shuttle missions in the 1980s appeared to show ancient river drainage patterns beneath the Sahara desert.
Sahara desert, BBC
Satellites have revealed ancient river beds beneath the Sahara
Subsequent imaging turned up ring structures beneath the ice of Antarctica. But until now no-one has been entirely sure that these images definitely showed real objects.
http://satellitediscoveries.typepad.com/we...chaeology_news/
Images from US space shuttle missions in the 1980s appeared to show ancient river drainage patterns beneath the Sahara desert.
Sahara desert, BBC
Satellites have revealed ancient river beds beneath the Sahara
Subsequent imaging turned up ring structures beneath the ice of Antarctica. But until now no-one has been entirely sure that these images definitely showed real objects.
QUOTE (crystal sage @ Apr 26 2008, 09:51 AM)
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97985&page=1
http://www.satimagingcorp.com/svc/archaeology.html
http://www.satimagingcorp.com/svc/archaeology.html
Yes, the latest satellite imaging is great. The river beds they are showing and dry lakes could have at one stage when they were rivers and lakes, for just a small amount of time, when the sea level rose dramatically, been turned into a shallow fresh water sea. I don't think it made the beds and rivers but filled up over them at the time of the highest sea level. Then receeded, only a few thousand years later. The time of the Black Sea flooding by the sea is the time I place it into. The water, as I said, came out at Mauritania, where, if you look at a map, you can see the bay and shallows, that lead out to Cape Verde. I'll admit that no archaeological evidence has been found to verify that a civilisation of this height lived there between the Black Sea flood, 5500BC (when sea levels rose, making the 'sea', and the drying up of the Sahara.) and the end of the wet Sahara around 2500 BC I think weather patterns certainly contributed to the drying up but the sea levels and rain could have been enough. I don't expect to find too much evidence of it because it was only there a short time.
Adding to that - if there was a civilisation there and it started getting drier so they needed to move on, there is a hint of evidence that the people who did the Tassili Rock Paintings are the ancestors of the Egyptians. It depends I guess on what they find in the future. The rock paintings show a people that lived with water and were there 5000BC and the great horned? buffalo became extinct shortly after this.
There is no geological evidence to support the notion that the Sahara has been a sea in modern geological times (though it was some millions of years ago). However, Lake Chad was once much more extensive and, as already noted, there were numerous smaller lakes and rivers flowing across the region during the African Humid period (approx 10,000 to 5,000 years ago). Also bear in mind that for much of this period sea levels were lower than today, as the main N American ice sheet only finally disappeared around 6,000 years ago.
The location of Lake Tritonis may have been towards the Libyan coast, possible even an area of marshland subsequently submerged by rising sea levels. I think Iain Wilson makes that suggestion in his book 'Before the Flood' (one of the better Atlantis books, IMO).
The location of Lake Tritonis may have been towards the Libyan coast, possible even an area of marshland subsequently submerged by rising sea levels. I think Iain Wilson makes that suggestion in his book 'Before the Flood' (one of the better Atlantis books, IMO).
Hi WAAS,
unable to view the Madrid records today, so have written to them and the USGS and BGS for information. Have also written to the Ordnance Survey in UK to ask for assistance in checking the precise topology of the Eye, and to request them to run a simulation of varying depths of water overlaying the area just to get an idea if what you suggest is feasible. I have also asked them to extrapolate this data over surrounding terrain. Dont know of they will help, but it would be amazing to see your theory come to life!! I have, of course, recognised your authorship in this in all letters.
I do not, believe we are looking at Atlantis at all (I dont believe it exists as Plato suggests)
There appears to be a lot of archaeology in the immediate vicinity, and numerous artefacts.....and I have in my "minds eye" a civilisation (just regular - not supremely advanced) taking advantage of this natural, geologic formation, surrounded by water etc.
This is really an exciting theory, and worth the investigation.
unable to view the Madrid records today, so have written to them and the USGS and BGS for information. Have also written to the Ordnance Survey in UK to ask for assistance in checking the precise topology of the Eye, and to request them to run a simulation of varying depths of water overlaying the area just to get an idea if what you suggest is feasible. I have also asked them to extrapolate this data over surrounding terrain. Dont know of they will help, but it would be amazing to see your theory come to life!! I have, of course, recognised your authorship in this in all letters.
I do not, believe we are looking at Atlantis at all (I dont believe it exists as Plato suggests)
There appears to be a lot of archaeology in the immediate vicinity, and numerous artefacts.....and I have in my "minds eye" a civilisation (just regular - not supremely advanced) taking advantage of this natural, geologic formation, surrounded by water etc.
This is really an exciting theory, and worth the investigation.
QUOTE (Essan @ Apr 26 2008, 01:09 PM)
There is no geological evidence to support the notion that the Sahara has been a sea in modern geological times (though it was some millions of years ago). However, Lake Chad was once much more extensive and, as already noted, there were numerous smaller lakes and rivers flowing across the region during the African Humid period (approx 10,000 to 5,000 years ago). Also bear in mind that for much of this period sea levels were lower than today, as the main N American ice sheet only finally disappeared around 6,000 years ago.
The location of Lake Tritonis may have been towards the Libyan coast, possible even an area of marshland subsequently submerged by rising sea levels. I think Iain Wilson makes that suggestion in his book 'Before the Flood' (one of the better Atlantis books, IMO).
The location of Lake Tritonis may have been towards the Libyan coast, possible even an area of marshland subsequently submerged by rising sea levels. I think Iain Wilson makes that suggestion in his book 'Before the Flood' (one of the better Atlantis books, IMO).
I completely agree and accept what you say Essan, what I am looking for is a temporary inundation of that area in Mauretania, maybe only lasting a couple of hundred years, and wondering whether local primitive tribes may have used the specific region as effectively a Castle and Moat system - freely available to whoever claimed the high - ground.
QUOTE (keithisco @ Apr 26 2008, 10:37 PM)
I completely agree and accept what you say Essan, what I am looking for is a temporary inundation of that area in Mauretania, maybe only lasting a couple of hundred years, and wondering whether local primitive tribes may have used the specific region as effectively a Castle and Moat system - freely available to whoever claimed the high - ground.
Yes, I also agree in a way with Essan. I also am in line with what you say. I also don't think most of Plato's story is real, but I do maintain this description is based in truth. Temporary inundation in that area, yes, castle, moat system, good thinking.
This could easily have been transferred into a 'legend' or a story that Egyptians knew, because also of the 'fact' that Egyptians seem to have originated in this area, it could have been kept as a legend that Plato heard and he has used it as a basis for his description of an early event prior to the Great Flood. An Egyptian told him the story and it is where the Egyptians originated and migrated East as the area dried up.
The description Plato gives of being like cut out with a lathe, and the actual site of Richat Structure where it has been cut out as like with a lathe by electrical forces is a big co incidence if he is not referring to it imo.
I think you are on the same wavelemgth Keithisco as me and so I really appreciate your time in following this through.
QUOTE (weareallsuckers @ Apr 27 2008, 01:10 AM)
Yes, I also agree in a way with Essan. I also am in line with what you say. I also don't think most of Plato's story is real, but I do maintain this description is based in truth. Temporary inundation in that area, yes, castle, moat system, good thinking.
This could easily have been transferred into a 'legend' or a story that Egyptians knew, because also of the 'fact' that Egyptians seem to have originated in this area, it could have been kept as a legend that Plato heard and he has used it as a basis for his description of an early event prior to the Great Flood. An Egyptian told him the story and it is where the Egyptians originated and migrated East as the area dried up.
The description Plato gives of being like cut out with a lathe, and the actual site of Richat Structure where it has been cut out as like with a lathe by electrical forces is a big co incidence if he is not referring to it imo.
I think you are on the same wavelemgth Keithisco as me and so I really appreciate your time in following this through.
This could easily have been transferred into a 'legend' or a story that Egyptians knew, because also of the 'fact' that Egyptians seem to have originated in this area, it could have been kept as a legend that Plato heard and he has used it as a basis for his description of an early event prior to the Great Flood. An Egyptian told him the story and it is where the Egyptians originated and migrated East as the area dried up.
The description Plato gives of being like cut out with a lathe, and the actual site of Richat Structure where it has been cut out as like with a lathe by electrical forces is a big co incidence if he is not referring to it imo.
I think you are on the same wavelemgth Keithisco as me and so I really appreciate your time in following this through.
I sincerely think you are onto something here WAAS, it is an area that has hardly been looked at archaeologically or geologically. I will pmail any info I get first then perhaps we can discuss it? I live reasonably close to the area (I am in Madrid) and might perhaps be able to get out there with my camera this summer.
QUOTE (keithisco @ Apr 27 2008, 10:43 AM)
I sincerely think you are onto something here WAAS, it is an area that has hardly been looked at archaeologically or geologically. I will pmail any info I get first then perhaps we can discuss it? I live reasonably close to the area (I am in Madrid) and might perhaps be able to get out there with my camera this summer.
That is wonderful keith, thanks so much for putting so much faith into this idea.
Put into perspective, and simply to clarify, it is basically the story of Creation for the people of that area after Poseidon creates the Structure. Like I said I think the carving out of it is relative.This is how Plato sees their Creation. He even hopes that the Gods will like his rendition and hopes he doesn't offend them if it is incorrect. Then it proceeds to tell how they became dominant in the area. The link between these ancient people in the area of the Richat Structure which could encompass up to Tassili and beyond, and Egypt, then Greece is a major factor also. I do think that trading was involved and they because of that they were becoming a proper civilisation. As far as I know the things Plato mentions they have, grew and were available in that area. From the pulse crops to the elephants and gold, or could easily have been traded there by close sources. Then they left there after it dried up which coincided with the end of the last high sea level in the Mediterranean around 3000-2500BC and the climate change that made it dry, monsoons. At this same time, a bit later, we have Mt Etna in Sicily, which is very close to Gabes, erupting, first on record at 1800BC, which could have closed up the passage into Gades and also been in the story as the earthquakes etc. Water would go from Gabes to the west coast of Mauritania through the Erg Oriental, passing through Tassili, Richat Structure and out into the Atlantic.
Minoan culture starts around this time. 1800BC.
So geologically and archaeologically that would be the main factors I would look for.
So, then around 1450BC Thera erupts also. End of Mycenaean civilisation shortly after this. So if the Minoans who would have interbred with Mycenaeans were related to the people of the Richat Structure area, we have a bull sacrificing link, with the Atlanteans having a bull sacrifice and the Minoan/Mycenaean island of Crete being renown for it's bull history, I do believe the bull was sacrificed after Minoans had done the leaping of it from archaeological records.
Possibly the Atlanteans, the people from Tassili and Mauritania were the the ancestors of the Minoans/Mycenaeans and then are punished eventually for being too extragant. With the earthquake and flooding. Like...... see what happens if you get too indulgent! Because the whole story is actually a moral tale, that's why there is no 'physical' war, the war is that Athens, being virtuous and wise becomes the dominant power in the Mediterranean because of it, and they got rid of or beat the indulgent people who were becoming dominant over them, via a retribution of obliterating them through God wanting to wipe the earth clean of the immoral. You can see a similar story in the Bible of God wiping the immoral off the earth by the use of a flood leaving the virtuous and wise, the Isralites of course, from the Pentateuch Plato read.
That is the way that the original Richat Structure inhabitants moved north spread through Spain, I believe Berbers and Garanches have unusual beginnings, and then settled Egypt and well as some of them heading into Crete, becoming Minoans, taken over by Mycenaeans which is a remnant seed of the Greeks, the Mycenaeans were in Greece, so it would be natural for them to breed with the Dorians and other Greek ancestors once they arrived. By that, it means they would be ancestors to Egyptians and also the Greeks. From what I know Berbers, Garanches and Minoans all have ancestry no one is really sure of. Or at least no clear answer is provided.
Take that premise and add some proof and that's it. I would appreciate any pmail or info you provide working with that idea. The beginning part is really all that related geographically to the structure, that ancient people were there in the time of the primeval man, Evenor, who fathered Cleito. For Cleito was already there when Poseidon got there. Everyone else is Cleito's ancestor...Minoans, Egyptians and Greeks.
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Apr 26 2008, 07:21 AM)
A very large proportion of the Sahara is not in the tropics, it is mainly sub-tropical.
True, but it was very different then and it was still very humid nevertheless.
QUOTE (Essan @ Apr 26 2008, 10:09 PM)
There is no geological evidence to support the notion that the Sahara has been a sea in modern geological times (though it was some millions of years ago). However, Lake Chad was once much more extensive and, as already noted, there were numerous smaller lakes and rivers flowing across the region during the African Humid period (approx 10,000 to 5,000 years ago). Also bear in mind that for much of this period sea levels were lower than today, as the main N American ice sheet only finally disappeared around 6,000 years ago.
The location of Lake Tritonis may have been towards the Libyan coast, possible even an area of marshland subsequently submerged by rising sea levels. I think Iain Wilson makes that suggestion in his book 'Before the Flood' (one of the better Atlantis books, IMO).
The location of Lake Tritonis may have been towards the Libyan coast, possible even an area of marshland subsequently submerged by rising sea levels. I think Iain Wilson makes that suggestion in his book 'Before the Flood' (one of the better Atlantis books, IMO).
Yes, I agree, at the moment is is no real indication that there was a sea, but a larger freshwater river like a large sea from huge inundations from the weather, or the risen sea after 5500BC when it had to have risen to flood the Black Sea is the times I indicate as being when this could have occured.
I have referenced Lake Tritonis in Herodotus, but I will make an effort to check out the book you mention.
There are not exactly many things suggesting there ever were any great civilization that could equal that of the legend of Atlantis in Africa. Perhaps Egypt, but didnt Plato hear his story about Atlantis from the egyptians in the first place? And, would i not make more sense to just say "And Atlantis was a bit further down here in our continent, head south" instead of something completely different that rather points to a path beyond africa and over the oceans, which will make you reach the americas. And there you have things that suits a advanced civilization and the end of the same civilization and possibly great destructions such as those that might have created the mexican gulf, where interesting things still may be.
For the egyptians to know about this place, it means they must have been there, or at least heard some convincing stories from others whom had been there. My personal guess is that it might be that the egyptians themselves were survivors of Atlantis, ended up in north africa and thus carried with them some of the knowledge in regards of stone masonry which is pretty interesting in its own, and so is the masonry of latin americas where I think that knowledge came from as well as the story about it.
Then it seems possible that some of them had escaped and ended up in africa while some still were left in the latin americas and continued their work there and eventually it split into two different groups of people with differen cultures and gods etc, though there are many similarities there too.
Also:
Quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian...ontact_theories
Various other evidence such as linguistic evidence, botanical evidence, cultural evidence etc further supports such theories. Read more about that in New York Posts article "Africans, not Europeans, first in America?" at http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/...amp;oref=slogin
For the egyptians to know about this place, it means they must have been there, or at least heard some convincing stories from others whom had been there. My personal guess is that it might be that the egyptians themselves were survivors of Atlantis, ended up in north africa and thus carried with them some of the knowledge in regards of stone masonry which is pretty interesting in its own, and so is the masonry of latin americas where I think that knowledge came from as well as the story about it.
Then it seems possible that some of them had escaped and ended up in africa while some still were left in the latin americas and continued their work there and eventually it split into two different groups of people with differen cultures and gods etc, though there are many similarities there too.
Also:
QUOTE
Some have advocated that Ancient Egyptians may have traveled to the New World. Evidence for such claims involves the mystery of the "Cocaine mummies", mummies reported to have contained substantial quantities of coca and nicotine.[5] The initial discovery was made by a German toxicologist by the name of Dr. Svetla Balabanova, after examining the mummy of a female priestess called Henut Taui. She states:
The first positive results, of course, were a shock for me. I had not expected to find nicotine and cocaine but that's what happened. I was absolutely sure it must be a mistake.
Follow up tests by way of the hair shaft - performed to rule out contamination - offered the same results. The significance of these finds lie with the fact that both coca and tobacco plants are indigenous to the Americas and thought not to have reached Africa until after the voyage of Christopher Colombus, in 1492.[6][7] Subsequent examination of numerous Sudanese mummies undertaken by Balabanova, mirrored what was found in the mummy of Henut Taui.
Balabanova suggested that the tobacco may be accounted for since it may have also been known in China and Europe, as indicated by analysis run on human remains from those respective regions. Balabanova proposed that such plants, native to the general area may have developed independently, but since have gone extinct.[8] This view is strongly disputed by botanists due to the lack of evidence to support it. Other explanations were that of possible fraud[9] or transportation of seeds by way of an African Swallow, with the former hypothesis being discarded by curator Dr. Alfred Grimm of The Egyptian Museum in Munich, after carefully reviewing the evidence. Sources of nicotine other than tobacco and sources of cocaine in the Old World are discussed by the British biologist Duncan Edlin in A look at the Evidence for Cocaine in Mummies
Most mainstream scholars remain skeptical, seeking more conventional explanations, while many alternative historians see this as proof of ancient contact between Africa and the Americas, well before Columbus.
The first positive results, of course, were a shock for me. I had not expected to find nicotine and cocaine but that's what happened. I was absolutely sure it must be a mistake.
Follow up tests by way of the hair shaft - performed to rule out contamination - offered the same results. The significance of these finds lie with the fact that both coca and tobacco plants are indigenous to the Americas and thought not to have reached Africa until after the voyage of Christopher Colombus, in 1492.[6][7] Subsequent examination of numerous Sudanese mummies undertaken by Balabanova, mirrored what was found in the mummy of Henut Taui.
Balabanova suggested that the tobacco may be accounted for since it may have also been known in China and Europe, as indicated by analysis run on human remains from those respective regions. Balabanova proposed that such plants, native to the general area may have developed independently, but since have gone extinct.[8] This view is strongly disputed by botanists due to the lack of evidence to support it. Other explanations were that of possible fraud[9] or transportation of seeds by way of an African Swallow, with the former hypothesis being discarded by curator Dr. Alfred Grimm of The Egyptian Museum in Munich, after carefully reviewing the evidence. Sources of nicotine other than tobacco and sources of cocaine in the Old World are discussed by the British biologist Duncan Edlin in A look at the Evidence for Cocaine in Mummies
Most mainstream scholars remain skeptical, seeking more conventional explanations, while many alternative historians see this as proof of ancient contact between Africa and the Americas, well before Columbus.
QUOTE
The Olmec civilization of Central America, based along the Gulf Coast of south-central Mexico, existed roughly from 1200 to 400 BC. Some Olmec sculptures appear to represent faces with Negroid features. Seventeen monumental basalt stone heads, each weighing ten to forty tons, have been unearthed in Olmec sites along the Mexican Gulf Coast. José Melgar, who discovered the first colossal head at Hueyapan (now Tres Zapotes) in 1862, subsequently published two papers that attributed this head to a "Negro race".[10] The great majority of scholars who specialize in Mesoamerican archaeology and history regard these speculations as incorrect.
QUOTE
According to van Sertima, the first evidence of a black presence in the America was given to Columbus by the natives, who allegedly indicated to the Spanish that they were trading with black people. [12] His book claims Columbus later recorded that “The Indians of this Española said there had come to Española a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they called gua-nin". In his book, Columbus sent samples of this to Spain to have them examined, where it was later found that of 32 parts, 18 were of gold, 6 of silver and 8 of copper; similar in composition to comparable metals of West African origin.[12]
Quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian...ontact_theories
Various other evidence such as linguistic evidence, botanical evidence, cultural evidence etc further supports such theories. Read more about that in New York Posts article "Africans, not Europeans, first in America?" at http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/...amp;oref=slogin
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