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Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality vs Skepticism
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__Kratos__
QUOTE (MissMelsWell @ Apr 25 2008, 05:48 PM) *
Oh come on Kratos, you can do better than that LAME rebuttal. I know you can.


Why? Short, sweet and hits the point.

Honestly you'd think that a 'holy' book would have higher standards of human rights and freedom then other cultures since it would reflect a god. Least one would think so. blink.gif

Why I think it was right of her to try and hide her baby... She was trying to be a good mother rather then follow a backwards ideaology that would have had her murdered and her son labled with shame.

QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 25 2008, 06:07 PM) *
That likely has more to do with the men claiming they are the Bible and less to do with the Bible itself. When Christianity first started one of the reasons it became popular was mainly due to Roman women who found it liberating. They were able to find leadership positions in the church while they were only opressed within Roman society. They were able to be treated as equals finally including in marriage where the scriptures specifically state that in marriage the woman belongs to the man but likewise the man belongs to the woman. The Catholics started the trend of supressing women again but that does not mean that one is unable to follow the Bible more purely and treat each other as equals.




http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/997533


And yet it's still in there.

So they traded oppression and bigotry for a less extreme form of it. That's not winning any prizes with me. hmm.gif
joeycastaneda56
QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Apr 25 2008, 02:46 PM) *
Basic Instinct director Paul Verhoeven is set to publish a book which claims that Jesus Christ's father was probably a Roman soldier who raped Mary during the Jewish uprising in Galilee.

Verheoeven's revisionist biography of Jesus will come out in September, following more than 20 years of research.

The Dutch film-maker has had a lifelong ambition to make a film about Jesus based on scientific research, and decided to write the book to raise interest in his film project.

In it he also claims that Christ was not betrayed by Judas Iscariot.

His publisher, Amsterdam-based Meulenhoff, is in negotiations for an English-language translation.

Verhoeven, who turns 70 in July, has been a regular attendee of US scholar Robert W Funk's Jesus seminars, which question miracles and statements attributed to Jesus.

Article here: Link

--------------------------------------------------
Makes more sense and logical that jesus was the b****** child of a Roman soldier from rape then the b****** child of 'god'.

Mary was probably too scared to tell the truth because they would have likely stoned her to death in those times thanks to their 'holy' book. no.gif


Source - Biblegateway.com

Women are treated so horribly in the book. hmm.gif

.............<<>> Sometimes I used to wonder how people can speak such (Blasphemy) against the Son of God and now even His mother. Then God showed Me in His Word / (The Bible). The Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes knew the Laws of Moses. They all knew that the Messiah / Jesus was to come soon or later. When Jesus finally came in their time they rejected Him as the Messiah / Jesus. They even went as far as calling him a devil. They were also responsible for sending Him to His death. This is what Jesus said to them in the book of (Matt:12:31-32) - (The Unpardonable Sin) - They all spoke Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit / The True Word of God. This 70 year old man is probably a man who knows the Word of God and might have even been a Christian at on time. In (Romans.1:28 - God gave them over to a debased mind). Some people cross that line a point of no return, they totally lose their mind. I would hate to be this man when He stands before the Judgment seat of God and gives a account for his life. Not to mention that at His age it won't be long.............Joey.
MissMelsWell
QUOTE
Why? Short, sweet and hits the point.

Honestly you'd think that a 'holy' book would have higher standards of human rights and freedom then other cultures since it would reflect a god. Least one would think so.

Why I think it was right of her to try and hide her baby... She was trying to be a good mother rather then follow a backwards ideaology that would have had her murdered and her son labled with shame.


Kratos.... earth to Kratos. You'll notice I never argued that things didn't happen the way the movie producer is suggesting.

All I was pointing out is that they Mary would have been stoned to death regardless of her religion... Christian, Hindu, Jew or Pagan. Roman, and Greek pagans treated women HORRIBLY. So did Jews, Hindus and Christians. No, you can't blame this one on Christians or Jews or a Bible or religious texts, this is a HUMAN issue that began well before Abrahamic texts. Let's blame it on oh.... how about the incessant need for men to have a male dominated society?

ohmy.gif tongue.gif

__Kratos__
QUOTE (MissMelsWell @ Apr 25 2008, 08:19 PM) *
Kratos.... earth to Kratos. You'll notice I never argued that things didn't happen the way the movie producer is suggesting.

All I was pointing out is that they Mary would have been stoned to death regardless of her religion... Christian, Hindu, Jew or Pagan. Roman, and Greek pagans treated women HORRIBLY. So did Jews, Hindus and Christians. No, you can't blame this one on Christians or Jews or a Bible or religious texts, this is a HUMAN issue that began well before Abrahamic texts. Let's blame it on oh.... how about the incessant need for men to have a male dominated society?

ohmy.gif tongue.gif


And you want to simply blame mankind when it's the hateful and bigotry of the holy books and religions that helps fuels the ugliness of our race. They simply don't get off for their sickness preaching because sickness exists elsewhere. I'm sure most decent people would consider stoning a woman to death a sickness that shouldn't be toleranted regardless of where it comes from.
MissMelsWell
QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Apr 25 2008, 06:46 PM) *
And you want to simply blame mankind when it's the hateful and bigotry of the holy books and religions that helps fuels the ugliness of our race. They simply don't get off for their sickness preaching because sickness exists elsewhere. I'm sure most decent people would consider stoning a woman to death a sickness that shouldn't be toleranted regardless of where it comes from.



Kratos you're STILL missing the point... by a MILE.
Lt_Ripley
here's the truth whether one wants to believe it or not ................... no one knows. He very well could have been.
momentarylapseofreason
This was a claim made by the non-christian greek philosopher Celsus.


I believe the elders of the Jews also stated to Pilate during the trial of Jesus that he had been conceived through fornication ? huh.gif
GIDEON MAGE
The entire argument is ridiculous, considering that the whole "virgin" thing is based on the fourth century writers of the new testament, using the greek translation of Isaiah. There was neither a prophecy of a virgin birth, nor precident in any of the Hebrew Scriptures. This is what happens when a group of Christians, ignorant of Hebrew, Judiasm or Jewish customs, writes a book to force mass conversion of pagans.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/sons.html

QUOTE
Yet Another Son – (immanu'el)
Whose is this son in Isaiah 7:14, who was to be named (immanu'el)? Yes, he was, of course, going to be the son born to the female that is spoken of in this verse, but who might that female have been, and who, then, would have been the child's father?
Although the Jewish Sages are not unanimous regarding the identity of this child, they all agree that the boy was born within the historical timeframe of the events being described in this part of the Book of Isaiah. Some hold that the female was the pregnant (or soon to be pregnant) Queen, the wife of King Ahaz, which would make the child one of King Ahaz’ sons, the younger sibling of Hezekiah, who was at least nine years old at the time this prophecy was spoken. Others suggest the female was the pregnant (or soon to be pregnant) "prophetess", the wife of Isaiah (Is 8:3), so that the child was one of Isaiah’s sons. This disagreement among the Jewish Sages is inconsequential to the context of the historical events described. In the following analysis, the feasibility that (immanu'el) is another one of Isaiah's sons will be demonstrated.Two of Isaiah’s sons have already been identified in person, the signs that correspond to their respective names have been located in the generally relevant portion of the Book of Isaiah, Chapters 7-10, and the evidence of the fulfillment of these prophetic signs was identified in the historic accounts of 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles. Can this type of pattern be identified for (immanu'el)?
The name (immanu'el) first appears in the following well-known passage:
Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign, "Behold the young woman is with child, and she will bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanu'el [ (immanu'el)]."
The literal translation of the name (immanu'el) is G-d is with us. Yet, unlike the case with the previous two names, the relationship of this child to Isaiah is not explicitly stated in the Hebrew Bible. Whose son is he?
The challenge here is to see if this sign, (immanu'el), G-d is with us, spoken of in Isaiah 7:14, can be found elsewhere. Is it mentioned anywhere else by Isaiah? The answer is YES - not once, but twice, as follows:
Isaiah 8:8 - And it will penetrate into Judah, it will overflow as it passes through, it will reach up to the neck; and the tips of his wings shall fill the breadth of your land, Immanu-El [ (immanu el)]. {Note: Some Hebrew Bibles use here the alternate form, Immanu'el [ (immanu'el)].}
Isaiah 8:10 - Take counsel, and it will be foiled; speak a word, and it will not happen; for G-d is with us [ (ki immanu E-l)].
In the first passage, (immanu el) is mentioned as a member of the Tribe of Judah, and is part of the prophecy described in that passage. In the second passage, (immanu el) is used as a prophetic manifestation of the sign signified by his name, G-d is with us.
Historically, this prophetic sign was soon to be realized, as one learns from the account of the siege on Jerusalem by Sannheriv, king of Assyria, as described in 2 Chronicles 32. First, came the promise by King Hezekiah to his people:
2 Chronicles 32:7-8 – (7) "Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid and dismayed because of the king of Assyria, and because of all the multitude that is with him; for He Who is with us [ (immanu)] is greater than that [which is] with him; (8) With him is an arm of flesh; and with us is the L-rd our G-d [ (veimmanu A-dona'i E-loheynu)] to help us, and to fight our wars." And the people relied on the words of Hezekiah, king of Judah.
Then, the outcome is described:
2 Chronicles 32:22 - And the L-rd saved Hezekiah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem from the hand of Sannheriv, the king of Assyria, and from the hand of all others, and guided them on every side.
G-d was with the House of Judah, but He was not with the House of Israel. The prophetic sign, (immanu'el), G-d is with us, was realized for Judah.
Question: Is there a special significance to the use of one of G-d's titles in the name (immanu'el)?
Answer: No. Many Jewish names contain one of several titles commonly used in the Hebrew Bible to refer to G-d, and often they include some description and/or accolade of G-d. This subject can be a lengthy discussion all by itself, which is beyond the scope of the present discussion. In order to focus on this attribute as it pertains to the name (immanu'el), some examples of other Biblical names of a similar nature will now be described.
One such name is (avi'yah), and its variant (avi'yahu), the anglicized version of which is Abijah. The English translation of this name is G-d is my father, since avi means my father and Yah[u] means [He is] G-d. There are 23 instances of (avi'yah) and two of (avi'yahu), in the Hebrew Bible, and these represent eight distinct persons (e.g., 1 Sam 8:2; 1 Kgs 14:1; Neh 10:8; 1 Chron 2:24; 1 Chron 3:10; 1 Chron 7:8; 1 Chron 24:10; 2 Chron 29:1; one example per person, respectively).
Another such name is (ahi'yah), and its variant (ahi'yahu), the anglicized version of which is Ahijah. The English translation of this name is G-d is my brother, since ahi means my brother and Yah[u] means [He is] G-d. There are 19 instances of (ahi'yah) and five of (ahi'yahu), in the Hebrew Bible, and these represent nine distinct persons (e.g., 1 Sam 14:13; 1 Kgs 4:3; 1 Kgs 11:29; 1 Kgs 16:27; Neh 10:27; 1 Chron 2:25; 1 Chron 8:7; 1 Chron 11:36; 1 Chron 26:20; one example per person, respectively).
Yet another example of such name is (avi'el), the anglicized version of which is Abiel. The English translation of this name is G-d is my father. There are three instances of (avi'el) in the Hebrew Bible, and these represents two distinct persons (e.g., 1 Sam 9:1; 1 Chron 11:32; one example per person, respectively).
A final example of such name, which is actually akin to the name (immanu'el), G-d is with us, is (iti'el), the anglicized version of which is Ithiel. The English translation of this name is G-d is with me and, hence, the similarity to (immanu'el) – instead of (immanu), [is] with us, which is in the plural 1st-person, there is (iti), [is] with me, in the singular 1st-person. There are three instances of (iti'el) in the Hebrew Bible, and these represents two distinct persons (Pr 30:1[2x]; Neh 11:7, respectively).
In the first three examples shown above, the literal meaning of the name reflects a father-son or brother-brother relationship between G-d and the named person. Since these relationships are obviously not literally true, certainly not for the specific bearers of those names in the Hebrew Bible, one would have to wonder why Christian apologists and missionaries, following Matthew 1:23, claim that there is something special about the name (immanu'el), namely, that it points to Jesus. By applying such (faulty) logic, similar arguments could be offered about (avi'yah), Abijah, (ahi'yah), Ahijah, (avi'el), Abiel, and other names of this type that appear in the Hebrew Bible. Moreover, as was demonstrated in the fourth example, the name (iti'el), Ithiel, is the "singular voice" equivalent of the name (immanu'el).
Why do Christian apologists and missionaries single out (immanu'el) as messianic? What makes (immanu'el) special relative to the other names? One likely reason is that the name (immanu'el) happens to be part of a passage that, with the help of some manipulation during the translation process, can be made to appear as having Christological content. Since none of the other names of this type occurs in such passages, Christian apologists and missionaries have no particular interest in them and, therefore, they ignore them.
IV. Summary
The Prophet Isaiah, in his own words, tells the reader that his children were given as signs from G-d (Is 8:18), and that the name he gave to each of his three sons carried a prophetic message described by these signs and identified as historical events that occurred. The three sons have been identified: (shear yashuv; Is 7:3), (immanu'el; Is 7:14, 8:8), and (maher shalal hash baz; Is 8:3). Also identified were the respective specific events for which these names were prophetic signs, along with their respective fulfillments in Jewish history, as recorded in the Hebrew Bible.This method of assigning names to children is not a unique occurrence in the Hebrew Bible. The Prophet Hosea, Isaiah’s contemporary, who ministered in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, was ordered by G-d to give the following names to his children: (yizreel; Hosea 1:4), G-d Will Sow, (lo ruhamah; Hosea 1:6), [She Was] Not Pitied, and (lo ammi; Hosea 1:9), [You Are] Not My People. Each of these names represented a specific sign that carried a prophetic message, as described in the first chapter in the Book of Hosea.
The passage Matthew 1:23 demonstrates, in several ways, that its author either did not have an understanding of the Hebrew language and of the Hebrew Bible, or that he deliberately perverted the words of the Prophet Isaiah to create a passage that would support his specific agenda. In addition to the mistranslation of the Hebrew noun (ha'almah), the young woman, and misrepresentation of the tense of the verb (harah), [she] is pregnant, which were discussed in another essay, of particular interest here is this author's explanation of the name (immanu'el) as meaning God with us, instead of the correct G-d is with us. The omission of the verb to be from its meaning enhances the Christological appeal and helps create the false allusion to Jesus.


Mademoiselle
QUOTE (Yetihunter @ Apr 25 2008, 06:02 PM) *
Just goes to show you that fools will do ANYTHING to try for their fifteen minutes of fame. As I saw demonstrated nicely in the film "There will be blood," the condition of human greed is capable of inspiring all sorts of evils. This filmmaker is another perfect example of this. He obviously has no fear of a disconcerting afterlife.



Exactly .. 15 mintes of fame .. and lots of cash !
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Yetihunter @ Apr 25 2008, 05:02 PM) *
Just goes to show you that fools will do ANYTHING to try for their fifteen minutes of fame.

Yea I guess the SAME applies to those that make religious movies..anyhting for a quick buck!!
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Apr 26 2008, 04:01 AM) *
here's the truth whether one wants to believe it or not ................... no one knows. He very well could have been.

That IS the absolute truth...no one really knows..
louie
Isnt it supposed to be a roman centurian she was raped or slept with, who was the father of jesus an his name was Panthera.
Rosewin
It has been a while since I have heard that name Panthera.

QUOTE
The alleged connection to Jesus derives from the interpretation of the writings of Celsus, an anti-Christian Greek philosopher quoted by Origen in Contra Celsum. According to Origen, Celsus wrote:

when she (Mary) was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera.

A figure known as Yeshu ben Pandera is mentioned in the Tosefta, a secondary collection of Jewish oral law. Yeshu is sometimes interpreted as a reference to Jesus of Nazareth.

The link between Celsus's Panthera and Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera was first suggested in Marcello Craveri's 1966 book La vita di Gesù. The connection depends on the assumption that Celsus' information about Jesus' illegitimacy was correct, and so a soldier with this name, living at the right period, might be the father. Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera's career would place him in Palestine as a young man around the time of Jesus' conception


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera
=Jak=
Hindus Myth
**********
<The first three of the Pandavs were the sons of ****i, and the younger two were sons of Madri. Since Pandu had been cursed to die if ever he had intercourse with his wives, the actual fatherhood of the children is traditionally attributed to various gods, in virtue of a boon that ****i had received from Durvasa and had transferred to Madri. Thus, Yudhishthira was the son of Dharma the god of righteousness, Bhima the son of Vayu the wind-god, Arjun the son of Indra the sky-god, and Nakul and Sahadeva the sons of the Ashwini Gods.>

They fought a war with Kauravas. For a mother and father 100 children. How many year they may had sex to have 100 children?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauravas.

Here i beleive. pandavas born some what like test tube babies and kauravas born like clonning. Test tube babies can win clone. Altimatly test tube sprem is provided by someone or unknown or consider them as god, who given meaning to their life with a baby.
Cradle of Fish
It appears the Life of Brian is closer to fact than we originally thought.
seanph
I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me if this has been said ... It is a very plausible scenario, one that goes back to the very earliest beginnings of the Jesus movement. In fact, the authors of the Gospels tried their best to explain away Jesus' birth--fortunately doing a poor job of it. It is a serious issue that really does need to be addressed. Tabor (UNC) gave it a pretty good working over in his bestseller The Jesus Dynasty.

I have been aware of this project from its very beginnings--nearly twenty years ago--and hope the film gets made. One of my Classics professors, Christine Shea, had been invited to join PV's research team. By the time I graduated, Dr. Shea/team had been working diligently on the script for the movie for a number of years. So, I'm quite anxious to see the final results based on over twenty years of research. Well worth the time and effort.

Christine Shea: Chairperson of the Department of Modern Languages & Classics Professor of Classics, BSU
http://www.bsu.edu/languages/profile/0,139...3-22970,00.html

MK,

Sean
MissMelsWell
Oh man Sean... I should have known, you're a Classics Major? I'm jealous. that was the major I wanted to work on but my company paid my tuition and wouldn't let me take a major that had next to nothing to do with my job, so I ended up with a BS in Technical Communications. My dream would be to go back and get that Classics degree.
Ozi
What i find funny is that the number of people here would go as far as believing that aliens genetically engineered us here on earth and created us, then are the same poeple that question a miracle birth. The irony.

Jesus was born as a miracle, his life was a miracle, and those who argue anything different base on ambigious evidence as those who believe in his miracles do to. Hence miracles, beyond human comprehesion as to how a scenario unfolds. YEt those film makers or critics of it, also base their conclusions on ambigious evidence, miracles by nature are ambigious, and cannot be proven and beyond the realm of science. Yet we are told to accept those who claim jesus did no miracles, and the he was not a miracle, based on ambigious evidence, which also has no weight, in conclusion they cannot prove nothing, as those who believe in miracles cannot prove jesus's miracles, unless he was present or one of his miracles was still present today.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (Ozi @ Apr 26 2008, 11:09 AM) *
What i find funny is that the number of people here would go as far as believing that aliens genetically engineered us here on earth and created us, then are the same poeple that question a miracle birth. The irony.

Jesus was born as a miracle, his life was a miracle, and those who argue anything different base on ambigious evidence as those who believe in his miracles do to. Hence miracles, beyond human comprehesion as to how a scenario unfolds. YEt those film makers or critics of it, also base their conclusions on ambigious evidence, miracles by nature are ambigious, and cannot be proven and beyond the realm of science. Yet we are told to accept those who claim jesus did no miracles, and the he was not a miracle, based on ambigious evidence, which also has no weight, in conclusion they cannot prove nothing, as those who believe in miracles cannot prove jesus's miracles, unless he was present or one of his miracles was still present today.

They're not saying you HAVE to disbelieve what Jesus did and how he was born, you know.... If Christians can preach on the sidewalk about their religion and make movies supporting equally unverifiable evidence, then science can do the same in disproving it. They're just letting people know about theories, which cannot be proven any more or less than the original story. Sure, we cannot prove miracles, but we can disprove them. The ancients didn't have the same technology, knowledge, and understanding as we do now, so it's probably very likely that many of the miracles Jesus claimed to be able to do can be explained today.
__Kratos__
QUOTE (Ozi @ Apr 26 2008, 01:09 PM) *
What i find funny is that the number of people here would go as far as believing that aliens genetically engineered us here on earth and created us, then are the same poeple that question a miracle birth. The irony.

Jesus was born as a miracle, his life was a miracle, and those who argue anything different base on ambigious evidence as those who believe in his miracles do to. Hence miracles, beyond human comprehesion as to how a scenario unfolds. YEt those film makers or critics of it, also base their conclusions on ambigious evidence, miracles by nature are ambigious, and cannot be proven and beyond the realm of science. Yet we are told to accept those who claim jesus did no miracles, and the he was not a miracle, based on ambigious evidence, which also has no weight, in conclusion they cannot prove nothing, as those who believe in miracles cannot prove jesus's miracles, unless he was present or one of his miracles was still present today.



But the theory that "god did it" is no where near as valid and more likely as this theory is. The word theory does not make each theory as valid as the next by any means.

I don’t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” - then I can’t even be bothered to argue. There is such a thing as the burden of proof, and in the case of god, as in the case of the composition of the moon, this has shifted radically. God used to be the best explanation we’d got, and we’ve now got vastly better ones. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining. So I don’t think that being convinced that there is no god is as irrational or arrogant a point of view as belief that there is. I don’t think the matter calls for even-handedness at all.
-Douglas Adams
Blind Atrocity
QUOTE (muddpuppy @ Apr 25 2008, 10:10 AM) *
I have NO doubt it WILL make money original.gif The Christian fundies WILL raise cain about it though, guarantee that. Remember Mel Gibson's The passion of the Christ(or whatever it was named) and how big of a stink it caused.? Imagine what this will do. I predict pandemonium.


Anything that is published, made into film, or put on disc that Christians don't like will start an uproar. That's why I don't watch the news anymore. original.gif Look at the stink surrounding the Harry Potter series? So what if J.K. Rowling used to be a pagan. Her books were made for children, but many people just have to have a problem with something.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 26 2008, 07:16 AM) *
It has been a while since I have heard that name Panthera.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera

Jesus ben Panthera was a real person, probably the main basis for the fictional Jesus in the n.t.
Bella-Angelique
QUOTE (GIDEON MAGE @ Apr 26 2008, 09:37 PM) *
Jesus ben Panthera was a real person, probably the main basis for the fictional Jesus in the n.t.

I doubt it.
\
Heru
The entertainment buiss sure sunk to a new low. Why would anyone see this movie I guess anything controversial will sell in america.

Honestly 2 hours of a girl getting raped, mel had is graphic violence so now we get "suggestive themes", and her emotional turmoil due to the act.

I think I saw that on lifetime 4 or 6 movies of em.

So he takes a lifetime movie changes the scenes and uses religious names and Bam people wanna see it lol

I should make a movie about jesus. Ill add these two movies shocks and throw in cussing im sure I can spin that jesus had to have cursed, alot of drunk scenes and call it....

The Alcholic Named Jesus

Or make one about Muhamed or Budda. Someone religiously famous. Cant forget the shock cause in america its all about the shock value.
Cradle of Fish
QUOTE (Heru @ Apr 27 2008, 09:38 AM) *
The entertainment buiss sure sunk to a new low. Why would anyone see this movie I guess anything controversial will sell in america.

Honestly 2 hours of a girl getting raped, mel had is graphic violence so now we get "suggestive themes", and her emotional turmoil due to the act.

I think I saw that on lifetime 4 or 6 movies of em.

So he takes a lifetime movie changes the scenes and uses religious names and Bam people wanna see it lol

I should make a movie about jesus. Ill add these two movies shocks and throw in cussing im sure I can spin that jesus had to have cursed, alot of drunk scenes and call it....

The Alcholic Named Jesus

Or make one about Muhamed or Budda. Someone religiously famous. Cant forget the shock cause in america its all about the shock value.


Chill out, if it's true you get to consider Jesus the Messiah and the most successful rape baby ever.
greenboy
I cant believe how many people continue trying to destroy Jesus figure. And after two thousand years they are still trying. What really wonder me is, when an individual show ups with one theory, unproved, and or make a movie, how people believe something unproved like sheep to the slaughter house. This really amaze me, that's why moments in history like the II world war and the Natzi Germany and the destruction of the Jewish people, and the destruction of the Tutsies by the HUTU in Rowanda Africa happens, just somebody somewhere starts a theory and eveybody follows. Thousand of people witnessed the resuration of Jesus, and Hundred saw him dying and how the earth quakes and the weather changed in that particular moment, hundred were there, and hundred testified the same. I don't know instead trying to destroy the Christian Faith, they should be helping the Christians, No other Religion in this planet claim a God who came down to be one of us and them He died for us. All the other faiths their gods wants for you to die for them... The choice is simple for me...



QUOTE (churchanddestroy @ Apr 25 2008, 05:06 PM) *
::sigh::
Oh Yetihunter, I love reading your remarks when it appears that someone is disparaging your belief, but I also love the fact that you don't seem to mind bringing others down, particularly, in fact specifically, those who don't believe what you believe.

I personally don't really adhere to this theory because I don't believe that Jesus Christ was a historical figure. But keep in mind, Yetihunter, that the OP said that the filmmaker has done 20 some odd years of research. Thats a lot of research.

tipsy_munchkin
QUOTE (greenboy @ Apr 27 2008, 11:59 AM) *
I cant believe how many people continue trying to destroy Jesus figure. And after two thousand years they are still trying. What really wonder me is, when an individual show ups with one theory, unproved, and or make a movie, how people believe something unproved like sheep to the slaughter house. This really amaze me, that's why moments in history like the II world war and the Natzi Germany and the destruction of the Jewish people, and the destruction of the Tutsies by the HUTU in Rowanda Africa happens, just somebody somewhere starts a theory and eveybody follows. Thousand of people witnessed the resuration of Jesus, and Hundred saw him dying and how the earth quakes and the weather changed in that particular moment, hundred were there, and hundred testified the same. I don't know instead trying to destroy the Christian Faith, they should be helping the Christians, No other Religion in this planet claim a God who came down to be one of us and them He died for us. All the other faiths their gods wants for you to die for them... The choice is simple for me...


If you read the posts no one is actually jumping up and saying yes this theory must be true. Most people have said its intresting, has maybe been mentioned before, then concluded we as yet simply dont know.
As to thousands of people witnessed the bible events that is kind of false logic. What you are saying is becuase the bible tells you that many people saw it it validates the words somehow. To be the kind of evidence youa re claiming it woud enatail there being thousands of records of people independantly claiming to have witnessed it. This does not exist.
AS to the final statement it soudns a little my religion is better than yours and the bolded statement simply is not true.
It is fair to say the choice is simple for you as that is entirely your right to view and decide but remember others have an equal right as that to view it and see it as different.
Rosewin
Some interesting points you made greenboy. The adherents of Christianity should be cautious of the change of tide within society that has come more and more to hate them. Such hatred is the first building block of any move that might result in persecution. So many people utterly hate the beliefs we hold and while at the same time would scream foul if others place their beliefs or non-beliefs in a negative light they would like nothing more than to see the destruction of the Faith we hold in our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. They would love nothing more in their hearts to see someone attempt to prove Jesus did not rise on the third day and then ascend into the heavens.

While not everyone has to believe this because lulz science says such things are impossible roflcopter!!111 I think they have a very wrong attitude when they take that thought further and want to undermine a whole group's belief system. As I have said before most of those people likely have personal issues with their own Christian families and this is their way of acting out even well into adulthood. I could only ask them to take a hard look into themselves and ask them why they want to destroy the Faith in the Word some of us hold and how fair is that after all they are tolerant people and abhor intolerance yet they themselves are intolerant of us. As a Christian I will be the first to say no one has to follow the Bible and people should believe as they wish...we do not want to destroy your beliefs so why must some wish ill will on ours? Einstein said it best...

QUOTE
I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein#Religious_views
greenboy

I just want to share this.
Laminin a major component of basement membranes has numerous biological activities including promotion of cell adhesion, keep things together. Now see the form of this protein



http://hsiapin.blogspot.com/2006/10/laminin.html











QUOTE (churchanddestroy @ Apr 25 2008, 04:06 PM) *
::sigh::
Oh Yetihunter, I love reading your remarks when it appears that someone is disparaging your belief, but I also love the fact that you don't seem to mind bringing others down, particularly, in fact specifically, those who don't believe what you believe.

I personally don't really adhere to this theory because I don't believe that Jesus Christ was a historical figure. But keep in mind, Yetihunter, that the OP said that the filmmaker has done 20 some odd years of research. Thats a lot of research.

Chokmah
QUOTE (greenboy @ Apr 27 2008, 12:43 PM) *
I just want to share this.
Laminin a major component of basement membranes has numerous biological activities including promotion of cell adhesion, keep things together. Now see the form of this protein



http://hsiapin.blogspot.com/2006/10/laminin.html


Laminin under the microscope;

linked-image

linked-image Laminin.

Larger picture of laminin, that can't fit on here.

A more defined artistic repersentation of the three parts that make up laminin's structure (Laminin is not a single body); linked-image .

Please, using christian blogs sites that grasp at straws is never a good idea...

And in actual fact, if you think it looks like a cross. It just means the Ancient Romans were the real creaters of mankind. Being as the crucifix is of their invention... If you really wanted it to be proof of your god (or, gods in christian faith), then you'd have more evidence if it had a little man dieing on the molecule.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE (greenboy @ Apr 27 2008, 07:43 AM) *
I just want to share this.
Laminin a major component of basement membranes has numerous biological activities including promotion of cell adhesion, keep things together. Now see the form of this protein



http://hsiapin.blogspot.com/2006/10/laminin.html

It looks more like a Caduceus, than the Roman torture device used by your religion to force mass conversions.

QUOTE (greenboy @ Apr 27 2008, 07:43 AM) *
I just want to share this.
Laminin a major component of basement membranes has numerous biological activities including promotion of cell adhesion, keep things together. Now see the form of this protein



http://hsiapin.blogspot.com/2006/10/laminin.html

It looks more like a Caduceus, than the Roman torture device used by your religion to force mass conversions.
Rosewin
QUOTE
It looks more like a Caduceus, than the Roman torture device used by your religion to force mass conversions.


Do you have any sources that claim anywhere that non-Catholics used any torture to force mass conversions? There is a difference between Christianity and Catholicism and I have yet found anything in history showing Christians tortured anyone in efforts to mass convert anyone...
Chokmah
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 03:09 PM) *
Do you have any sources that claim anywhere that non-Catholics used any torture to force mass conversions? There is a difference between Christianity and Catholicism and I have yet found anything in history showing Christians tortured anyone in efforts to mass convert anyone...


How about all those missionaries, in early American history - before union day. The missionaries in Iraq and Afganistan right now, spreading bibles like a plague. The missionaries in Africa, also spreading bibles like a plague. Sure they're not torturing them like in the dark ages, but they're offering help only if they accept jesus and learn the bible. In my opinion, that is torture.

Catholics are christians... Saying they aren't is like a man and a woman - who have never cheated on each other - had a son. And that son told us that that man isn't his father. Despite genetics and history saying otherwise.

Catholics and protestants, are slightly different. In the respect of "My jesus is better than yours" kind of way. All that protestants do, is following the same bible, written by someone else, who copied from an earlier edited version which also came from an earlier edited version.

Read a few of Gideon Mages topics, if you want to know the history of bible editings and so forth. He's basiaclly UM's religious-history encyclopedia - same with Mako tongue.gif

If catholics aren't christians. Then protestants are Hindu's.
seanph
QUOTE
MMW Oh man Sean... I should have known, you're a Classics Major? I'm jealous. that was the major I wanted to work on but my company paid my tuition and wouldn't let me take a major that had next to nothing to do with my job, so I ended up with a BS in Technical Communications. My dream would be to go back and get that Classics degree.


Yes, a Bachelor of Science in both Classics and History. And you should go back and get that CD, MMW. yes.gif

QUOTE
H Honestly 2 hours of a girl getting raped, mel had is graphic violence so now we get "suggestive themes", and her emotional turmoil due to the act.


The movie is to be about the life of the historical Jesus, H, not two hours of rape. It is also about a young girl, Mary, whose life was to make--and change--history. This is a story well worth being told IMHO.

QUOTE
BA Anything that is published, made into film, or put on disc that Christians don't like will start an uproar. That's why I don't watch the news anymore. Look at the stink surrounding the Harry Potter series? So what if J.K. Rowling used to be a pagan. Her books were made for children, but many people just have to have a problem with something.


yes.gif yes.gif yes.gif

QUOTE
K But the theory that "god did it" is no where near as valid and more likely as this theory is. The word theory does not make each theory as valid as the next by any means.

I don’t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” - then I can’t even be bothered to argue. There is such a thing as the burden of proof, and in the case of god, as in the case of the composition of the moon, this has shifted radically. God used to be the best explanation we’d got, and we’ve now got vastly better ones. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining. So I don’t think that being convinced that there is no god is as irrational or arrogant a point of view as belief that there is. I don’t think the matter calls for even-handedness at all.
-Douglas Adams


clap.gif clap.gif clap.gif

MK,

Sean
Rosewin
QUOTE (Chokmah @ Apr 27 2008, 09:46 AM) *
How about all those missionaries, in early American history - before union day.


The missionaries implemented torture?

QUOTE (Chokmah @ Apr 27 2008, 09:46 AM) *
The missionaries in Iraq and Afganistan right now, spreading bibles like a plague.


There is missionaries in Iraq and Afghanistan spreading bibles like a plague?

QUOTE (Chokmah @ Apr 27 2008, 09:46 AM) *
The missionaries in Africa, also spreading bibles like a plague. Sure they're not torturing them like in the dark ages, but they're offering help only if they accept jesus and learn the bible. In my opinion, that is torture.


Do you have any sources for any of this? Where are you coming up with this stuff from?

QUOTE (Chokmah @ Apr 27 2008, 09:46 AM) *
Catholics are christians... Saying they aren't is like a man and a woman - who have never cheated on each other - had a son. And that son told us that that man isn't his father. Despite genetics and history saying otherwise.

Catholics and protestants, are slightly different. In the respect of "My jesus is better than yours" kind of way. All that protestants do, is following the same bible, written by someone else, who copied from an earlier edited version which also came from an earlier edited version.

Read a few of Gideon Mages topics, if you want to know the history of bible editings and so forth. He's basiaclly UM's religious-history encyclopedia - same with Mako tongue.gif

If catholics aren't christians. Then protestants are Hindu's.


Christians do not consider the pope as the spiritual leader of the whole church or as God's represenative on earth. Christians follow the Bible while Catholics follow whatever the Catholic Church tells them is in it along with all the other man made edicts and papal bulls the RCC disseminates.

Also I read everyone's posts but it is more important to do our own research in the end then simply rely on anyone or consider them UM's religious-history encyclopedia. If someone cannot even differentiate between Catholics and the many denominations of Christians and label them all under the same group and claim they are all responsible for using torture devices to perform mass conversions they should hardly be considered an expert lolz
Chokmah
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 04:08 PM) *
The missionaries implemented torture?

Yes. By forcing them to convert. Not through devices, but through only giving food to those who'll convert / using aid to buy a person to convert.

QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 04:08 PM) *
There is missionaries in Iraq and Afghanistan spreading bibles like a plague?


Yes.

QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 04:08 PM) *
Do you have any sources for any of this? Where are you coming up with this stuff from?


Telegraph
The age
National Review
Time

QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 04:08 PM) *
Christians do not consider the pope as the spiritual leader of the whole church or as God's represenative on earth. Christians follow the Bible while Catholics follow whatever the Catholic Church tells them is in it along with all the other man made edicts and papal bulls the RCC disseminates.


Utterly wrong. Christians have many different sects, but two main dominions; Catholics and protestants. BOTH are christian, BOTH have the bible as their holy book. BOTH follow the bible - according to how their church tell them to follow it of course (if this wasn't the case, there'd be only 2 churches in the entirety of the world. A cathedral and a protestant church.)

QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 04:08 PM) *
Also I read everyone's posts but it is more important to do our own research in the end then simply rely on anyone or consider them UM's religious-history encyclopedia. If someone cannot even differentiate between Catholics and the many denominations of Christians and label them all under the same group and claim they are all responsible for using torture devices to perform mass conversions they should hardly be considered an expert lolz


I'm sorry, I mistook you for having a sense of humour.

Someone who thinks the only christian faction are protestants, can hardly be called a christian themselves. "Lolz". (This was a joke. Just telling you as you seem to have a problem identifying humour.) Catholics may have a head of religion, but the protestants have their priests for the exact same thing, albeit at a much smaller scale - being head of only a church. Both priest and pope and bishop, tell their followers what to do and how to read the bible with their own interpretations.

As I said earlier, you're telling people that man isn't your father, despite history and genetics saying otherwise. thumbsup.gif .
Rosewin
QUOTE (Chokmah @ Apr 27 2008, 09:46 AM) *
Sure they're not torturing them like in the dark ages, but they're offering help only if they accept jesus and learn the bible. In my opinion, that is torture.


The links you provided prove that some Christians are doing humanitary work in Iraq but none are refusing to offer their services to those who refuse to convert. It would seem your intial claim is not grounded in reality concerning Iraq.

There are also other Christians who are not Protestants so you are either assuming or just misreading. It might be a popular conception that Christians have two main 'dominions' but that is not really true but just a generalization. Most Christians rely on the Bible and the Catholics simply do not encourage their own faithful to even read it.
seanph
QUOTE
GREENBOY Thousand of people witnessed the resuration of Jesus,


I respectfully disagree GB. Where did this information come from? Nobody witnessed "the resurrection"--not even the disciples, for they had gone into hiding. And the resurrection stories are so contradictory as to be laughable.

The resurrection stories were away to first, address the missing body and, second, to appeal to a Hellenized world--Gentiles whose Gods rose from the dead, performed miracles so forth and so on.

... It was almost obligatory to have such stories available,” the theologian says; “they were stock stories told to convert people to Jesus.” Tales of virgin births, divine heroes, and miracles workers were relatively common 2,000 years ago and simply did not mean what they do to us today."--Kerry Temple (PhD), Editor, Notre Dame Magazine

AND:

Although all of these religious claims seem remarkable to the modern reader, none of them would have astounded the average citizen of the early Roman empire. Stories of heavenly portents, miraculous healings, mystical visions, and even resurrections were told about a number of demi-gods or heroes. In fact, a number of supernatural phenomena were even attributed to certain philosophers and emperors.

SOURCE: Religion in the Roman World (Mary Bonz, Harvard Theological Review)
<a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh.../religions.html" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh.../religions.html</a>

QUOTE
and Hundred saw him dying and how the earth quakes and the weather changed in that particular moment, hundred were there, and hundred testified the same.


There is not a single recorded account outside of the Gospels to confirm such a dramatic event--anywhere! Something so incredible--particularly dead people rising from the grave and roaming the streets of Jerusalem--would have most certainly made headlines! Nothing! This story is just that--a story. And if you're referring to Jesus appearing to people after the "resurrection", you are relying on post-Easter events--visions.

... One by one, then in smaller or larger groups, the disciples experienced Jesus still calling on them to continue his message and lifestyle. Thus he reentered their lives as they experienced anew the reality of his message and in turn were commissioned to carry it on just as he had. This is the experience that was and is the reality of Easter.--The Gospel of Jesus, Robinson, James, M., p. 206

The Gospel of Jesus: In Search of the Original Good News by James Robinson
http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Jesus-Search-...2944&sr=8-2

Beyond that, where is the testimony of all these individuals? Certainly many of these people would have written something. Again, nothing!

QUOTE
I don't know instead trying to destroy the Christian Faith, they should be helping the Christians,


Historian are not trying to destroy Christianity. They are looking at Christianity from a purely historical perspective. Biblical scholars address issues through established, very stringent, academic guidelines demanded by Criticism--and "'Critical' in this usage does not mean "negative" but refers to an analytical and objective approach." ("An Introduction to the Bible", Musser, Donald and Reddish, Michell and Fant, Clyde, p. 20-24)

... Biblical critics are not attempting to destroy or alter the message of the biblical texts; on the contrary, they are seeking to understand these ancient writings...

Please read ...

The Historical Critical approach to the bible from An Introduction to the Bible...

Approaches to the Bible
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...t&p=2204349

That said, any time scholars apply the various forms of Historical Critical Method to Jesus and the NT, you get a negative reaction from apologetic circles--particularly when you do it out in the open. So be it. It has been going on now since Thomas Jefferson first applied criticism to Jesus and the NT. It led to a revolution in Biblical studies. Applaud.

QUOTE
No other Religion in this planet claim a God who came down to be one of us and them He died for us. All the other faiths their gods wants for you to die for them... The choice is simple for me...


Does it make sense that God came to earth to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to save (from eternal damnation) His own creation from Himself?!

Respectfully,

Sean
Chokmah
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 05:01 PM) *
The links you provided prove that some Christians are doing humanitary work in Iraq but none are refusing to offer their services to those who refuse to convert. It would seem your intial claim is not grounded in reality concerning Iraq.


I stated that buy converts with food. I never stated they refused to help in Iraq or Afganistan either.

Humanitary work, partly. Converting people through humanitary work, completely. Which to me is torture, having to listen to religious dolts preach to you just so you can eat.

QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 05:01 PM) *
There are also other Christians who are not Protestants so you are either assuming or just misreading. It might be a popular conception that Christians have two main 'dominions' but that is not really true but just a generalization. Most Christians rely on the Bible and the Catholics simply do not encourage their own faithful to even read it.


...Uh huh... -facepalm-. Two dominions. Catholics and Protestants. Many sub-sects.

I forgot about the whole zealot campaign of "You aren't a real christian if you don't follow my church"... Aw well. My bad.

Time to get back on topic. Who the real christians are ( -eyeroll- ) has nothing to do with this topic. Sorry for de-railing OP.
Rosewin
QUOTE
Humanitary work, partly. Converting people through humanitary work, completely. Which to me is torture, having to listen to religious dolts preach to you just so you can eat.


Still not true but OK.
MissMelsWell
QUOTE (Chokmah @ Apr 27 2008, 09:41 AM) *
...Uh huh... -facepalm-. Two dominions. Catholics and Protestants. Many sub-sects.


Actually, there are denominations, independents, and sects that don't consider themselves Catholic or Protestant. Quite a few actually.

They often are lumped in with Protestant, but ... aren't.
Chokmah
QUOTE (MissMelsWell @ Apr 27 2008, 05:46 PM) *
Actually, there are denominations, independents, and sects that don't consider themselves Catholic or Protestant. Quite a few actually.

They often are lumped in with Protestant, but ... aren't.


I'm just talking about the main two dominions. Being as Clovis started stating Catholics are not christians, but protestants are. He decided to get smart and include other sects that had nothing to do with the actual argument.
Rosewin
Your two main 'dominions' view is very naive.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (Chokmah @ Apr 27 2008, 09:52 AM) *
I'm just talking about the main two dominions. Being as Clovis started stating Catholics are not christians, but protestants are. He decided to get smart and include other sects that had nothing to do with the actual argument.

Of course Catholics are Christians. "Christian" simple refers to believing in Christ. It's the largest, most broad definition of all of the different sects, denominations, cults, etc of those who believe in Jesus Christ. Catholics. Are. Christian. They're simply one of the many offshoots of the original religion. We just had this discussion in school the other day, and "Christian" is not an actual "religious denomination" per se; it's simply a term for someone who believes that Jesus is their savior. Mormons are Christian, Protestants are Christian, Catholics are Christian, Quakers are Christian, IF YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN. Plain. Simple. Easy.
Rosewin
What is taught in schools is not always right. The Vatican is not a Christian organization and no matter how many people believe it is so does not make it true. Even their head, the pope, has the title of Pontifex Maximus which is an ancient Roman title before Jesus was even born. Anyone who follows the Pontifex Maximus is not a Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_maximus
MissMelsWell
QUOTE
Quakers are Christian


Not always. More accurately... Orthodox Quakers are Christians. The Liberal Quakers far outnumber the Orthodox. Liberal Quakers aren't necessarily Christians--some are, some aren't.
Chokmah
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 05:55 PM) *
Your two main 'dominions' view is very naive.


Bored now.

...Not if the two dominions of christianity I'm on about, for the last few hours, are catholics and protestants... -eyeroll- . Which are both christian sects. Whether you like it or not, doesn't change the fact. thumbsup.gif .

Time for railing the topic. Instead of derailing it. thumbsup.gif Kthx.
Rosewin
This question might become one asked more soon when the New Age version of Christ comes more to the forefront as well. This New Age Christology which denies the soteriological aspect of Christ is rising in popularity. Part of this trend is to believe that Christ is just another in a long line of ascended masters.
churchanddestroy
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 12:35 PM) *
What is taught in schools is not always right. The Vatican is not a Christian organization and no matter how many people believe it is so does not make it true. Even their head, the pope, has the title of Pontifex Maximus which is an ancient Roman title before Jesus was even born. Anyone who follows the Pontifex Maximus is not a Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_maximus

Clovis, the Catholic Church is a Christian Organization. As far as I am concerned, a Christian is a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, or rather, a believer in Christ. Catholics believe in Christ, therefore Catholics are Christians. I hate when people say that Catholics aren't Christians. What else would they be then? No offense Clovis, but of all people I did not expect to hear this from you. Usually the people who say this to me are hyped-up-and-out-of-their-minds Evangelicals who have a bone to pick with the Catholic Church because their pastor hates it.
As a former Catholic myself, I take offense to what you said.
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 27 2008, 01:35 PM) *
What is taught in schools is not always right. The Vatican is not a Christian organization and no matter how many people believe it is so does not make it true. Even their head, the pope, has the title of Pontifex Maximus which is an ancient Roman title before Jesus was even born. Anyone who follows the Pontifex Maximus is not a Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_maximus


a bit of reading ?

Actually, Pope is a slang term. The actual job title is Pontifex Maximus (First Bridge Builder). The idea was that the pope would construct a bridge (spiritually, that is) between God and man.

Peter and the Papacy

"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church" (Matt. 16:18).

http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

Matthew
Chapter 16

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16
11 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
17
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
20
15 Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.


so ---------- what is the bible saying here? or is the bible wrong and your opinion right ? The Catholic christian church is based on Peter. He being seen as the first pope.
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