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norwood1026
JUNCTION CITY, Kansas (AP) -- Like hundreds of young men joining the Army in recent years, Jeremy Hall professes a desire to serve his country while it fights terrorism.


Soldier Jeremy Hall says the pressure to believe in God is so strong "I was ashamed to say that I was an atheist."

But the short and soft-spoken specialist is at the center of a legal controversy. He has filed a lawsuit alleging he's been harassed and his constitutional rights have been violated because he doesn't believe in God. The suit names Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

"I'm not in it for cash," Hall said. "I want no one else to go what I went through."

Known as "the atheist guy," Hall has been called immoral, a devil worshipper and -- just as severe to some soldiers -- gay, none of which, he says, is true. Hall even drove fellow soldiers to church in Iraq and paused while they prayed before meals.

"I see a name and rank and United States flag on their shoulder. That's what I believe everyone else should see," he said.

Hall, 23, was raised in a Protestant family in North Carolina and dropped out of school. It wasn't until he joined the Army that he began questioning religion, eventually deciding he couldn't follow any faith.

But he feared how that would look to other soldiers.

"I was ashamed to say that I was an atheist," Hall said.

It eventually came out in Iraq in 2007, when he was in a firefight. Hall was a gunner on a Humvee, which took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said.

"I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,"' Hall said. "I've never believed I was going to a happy place. You get one life. When I die, I'm worm food."

The issue came to a head when, according to Hall, a superior officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, threatened to bring charges against him for trying to hold a meeting of atheists in Iraq. Welborn has denied Hall's allegations.

Hall said he had had enough but feared he wouldn't get support from Welborn's superiors. He turned to Mikey Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

Weinstein is the foundation's president and a U.S. Air Force Academy graduate. He had previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on students at the academy, though that case was dismissed. He calls Hall a hero.

"The average American doesn't have enough intestinal fortitude to tell someone to shut up if they are talking in a movie theater," Weinstein said. "You know how hard it is to take on your chain of command? This isn't the shift manager at KFC."

Hall was in Qatar when the lawsuit was filed on September 18 in federal court in Kansas City, Kansas. Other soldiers learned of it and he feared for his own safety. Once, Hall said, a group of soldiers followed him, harassing him, but no one did anything to make it stop.

The Army told him it couldn't protect him and sent him back to Fort Riley. He resumed duties with a military police battalion. He believes his promotion to sergeant has been blocked because of his lawsuit, but he is a team leader responsible for two junior enlisted soldiers.

No one with Fort Riley, the Army or Defense Department would comment about Hall or the lawsuit. Each issued statements saying that discrimination will not be tolerated regardless of race, religion or gender.

"The department respects [and supports by its policy] the rights of others to their own religious beliefs, including the right to hold no beliefs," said Eileen Lainez, a spokeswoman for the Department of Defense.

All three organizations said existing systems help soldiers "address and resolve any perceived unfair treatment."

Lt. Col. David Shurtleff, a Fort Riley chaplain, declined to discuss Hall's case but said chaplains accommodate all faiths as best they can. In most cases, religious issues can be worked out without jeopardizing military operations.

"When you're in Afghanistan and an IED blows up a Humvee, they aren't asking about a wounded soldier's faith," Shurtleff said.

Hall said he enjoys being a team leader but has been told that having faith would make him a better leader.

"I will take care of my soldiers. Nowhere does it say I have to pray with my soldiers, but I do have to make sure my soldiers' religious needs are met," he said.

"Religion brings comfort to a lot of people," he said. "Personally, I don't want it or need it. But I'm not going to get down on anybody else for it."

Hall leaves the Army in April 2009. He would like to find work with the National Park Service or Environmental Protection Agency, anything outdoors.

"I hope this doesn't define me," Hall said of his lawsuit. "It's just about time somebody said something." E-mail to a friend.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/26/atheist.s...r.ap/index.html


Things like this really get under my skin! No one should be to what they should or should not believe! angry.gif

4dplane
QUOTE (norwood1026 @ Apr 26 2008, 01:36 PM) *
Hall said he enjoys being a team leader but has been told that having faith would make him a better leader.


Not all teams have to be of like mind to be the best team(some should not be); but in war and death, I can see how religious folk would not like to be with the guy that's not praying too.

churchanddestroy
Ironically, I've always been told that there are no atheists in foxholes...
~ MacDDT ~
Wow the war in Iraq really is the new Crusades
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (MacDDT @ Apr 26 2008, 03:20 PM) *
Wow the war in Iraq really is the new Crusades


exactly. hey God told Bush to attack. no different than the extreamists really.
Papaver
QUOTE (churchanddestroy @ Apr 26 2008, 07:14 PM) *
Ironically, I've always been told that there are no atheists in foxholes...



Just for you...


I Was an Atheist in a Foxhole by Vietnam veteran Philip K. Paulson.
Walter Sullivan
I feel really bad for him. Wasn't there another soldier who was demoted because he was a Wiccan?
churchanddestroy
QUOTE (Papaver @ Apr 26 2008, 02:46 PM) *
Just for you...


I Was an Atheist in a Foxhole by Vietnam veteran Philip K. Paulson.

hahaha good find, papaver, more irony on a fine saturday afternoon.
danielost
QUOTE (norwood1026 @ Apr 26 2008, 01:36 PM) *
JUNCTION CITY, Kansas (AP) -- Like hundreds of young men joining the Army in recent years, Jeremy Hall professes a desire to serve his country while it fights terrorism.


Soldier Jeremy Hall says the pressure to believe in God is so strong "I was ashamed to say that I was an atheist."

But the short and soft-spoken specialist is at the center of a legal controversy. He has filed a lawsuit alleging he's been harassed and his constitutional rights have been violated because he doesn't believe in God. The suit names Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

"I'm not in it for cash," Hall said. "I want no one else to go what I went through."

Known as "the atheist guy," Hall has been called immoral, a devil worshipper and -- just as severe to some soldiers -- gay, none of which, he says, is true. Hall even drove fellow soldiers to church in Iraq and paused while they prayed before meals.

"I see a name and rank and United States flag on their shoulder. That's what I believe everyone else should see," he said.

Hall, 23, was raised in a Protestant family in North Carolina and dropped out of school. It wasn't until he joined the Army that he began questioning religion, eventually deciding he couldn't follow any faith.

But he feared how that would look to other soldiers.

"I was ashamed to say that I was an atheist," Hall said.

It eventually came out in Iraq in 2007, when he was in a firefight. Hall was a gunner on a Humvee, which took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said.

"I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,"' Hall said. "I've never believed I was going to a happy place. You get one life. When I die, I'm worm food."

The issue came to a head when, according to Hall, a superior officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, threatened to bring charges against him for trying to hold a meeting of atheists in Iraq. Welborn has denied Hall's allegations.

Hall said he had had enough but feared he wouldn't get support from Welborn's superiors. He turned to Mikey Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

Weinstein is the foundation's president and a U.S. Air Force Academy graduate. He had previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on students at the academy, though that case was dismissed. He calls Hall a hero.

"The average American doesn't have enough intestinal fortitude to tell someone to shut up if they are talking in a movie theater," Weinstein said. "You know how hard it is to take on your chain of command? This isn't the shift manager at KFC."

Hall was in Qatar when the lawsuit was filed on September 18 in federal court in Kansas City, Kansas. Other soldiers learned of it and he feared for his own safety. Once, Hall said, a group of soldiers followed him, harassing him, but no one did anything to make it stop.

The Army told him it couldn't protect him and sent him back to Fort Riley. He resumed duties with a military police battalion. He believes his promotion to sergeant has been blocked because of his lawsuit, but he is a team leader responsible for two junior enlisted soldiers.

No one with Fort Riley, the Army or Defense Department would comment about Hall or the lawsuit. Each issued statements saying that discrimination will not be tolerated regardless of race, religion or gender.

"The department respects [and supports by its policy] the rights of others to their own religious beliefs, including the right to hold no beliefs," said Eileen Lainez, a spokeswoman for the Department of Defense.

All three organizations said existing systems help soldiers "address and resolve any perceived unfair treatment."

Lt. Col. David Shurtleff, a Fort Riley chaplain, declined to discuss Hall's case but said chaplains accommodate all faiths as best they can. In most cases, religious issues can be worked out without jeopardizing military operations.

"When you're in Afghanistan and an IED blows up a Humvee, they aren't asking about a wounded soldier's faith," Shurtleff said.

Hall said he enjoys being a team leader but has been told that having faith would make him a better leader.

"I will take care of my soldiers. Nowhere does it say I have to pray with my soldiers, but I do have to make sure my soldiers' religious needs are met," he said.

"Religion brings comfort to a lot of people," he said. "Personally, I don't want it or need it. But I'm not going to get down on anybody else for it."

Hall leaves the Army in April 2009. He would like to find work with the National Park Service or Environmental Protection Agency, anything outdoors.

"I hope this doesn't define me," Hall said of his lawsuit. "It's just about time somebody said something." E-mail to a friend.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/26/atheist.s...r.ap/index.html


Things like this really get under my skin! No one should be to what they should or should not believe! angry.gif



Other than him taking people to church I don't see anything here where anyone made him do anything. And if he didn't want to take them to church I am sure they would have had someone else drive them.

I also don't see them attack him because of his lack of faith. But rather because he is sueing the army over their faith in God.
Rosewin
While it might seem unfair a military unit should be united in camaraderie. Surely he could have fitted in better but was probably the type that somehow seems to find conflict. Case in point would be trying to form atheist meetings...couldn't they have just met without announcing it? He had to be really dense to not know what would happen in a culture where people are fighting for life and death. It is ironic that it was other soldiers who 'converted' to become an atheist yet he is now claiming some have written on forums that he was going to be 'fragged'. I worked with a soldier who had been on several tours in Iraq before and he was an atheist and also a hero in my eyes. We talked in depth of the war and he never mentioned any issues.

As they say if you go looking for trouble you will find it. What clearly struck a never with me is that if the first thing out of anyone's mouth is they are not in it for the money we can usually be sure that they in fact actually are.

QUOTE
There are 1.36 million active duty service members, according to the Pentagon, and since 2005, it has received 50 formal complaints of religious discrimination, Ms. Lainez said.


The problem might be bigger than this because of underreporting but this hardly seems an epidemic of bigotry some religion haters are going to say is happening and cry foul they will. In this light it would seem him naming the Defense Secretary Robert Gates in his lawsuit is a mere attempt to gain publicity. It is kind of sickening how people abuse the legal system and courts in this manner.

QUOTE
When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.


This statement shows motive and intention on his part to intentionally represent himself far and wide within his camp or unit as an atheist, in essence as being different than anyone else, so in essence he singled himself out.

QUOTE
Specialist Hall said he did not advertise his atheism.


He does seem to make conflicting statements, first he forms meetings and was even happy to see an officer there, someone not close to him and more like a stranger proving he was advertising, then claims he does not advertise it. Which one is it?

QUOTE
Since the Air Force Academy scandal began in 2004, Mr. Weinstein said, he has been contacted by more than 5,500 service members and, occasionally, military families about incidents of religious discrimination. He said 96 percent of the complainants were Christians, and the majority of those were Protestants.


Most complaints of religious discrimination, at least to Mr Weinstein's group, the same one involved in this case, seem to be from Christians themselves. So clearly the military is not a culture of Christian vs atheist.

QUOTE
In November 2007, Specialist Hall was sent home early from Iraq after being repeatedly threatened by other soldiers. “I caution you that although your ‘legal’ issues are yours and yours alone, I have heard many people disagree with you, and this may be a cause for some of the perceived threats,” wrote Sgt. Maj. Kevin Nolan in Specialist Hall’s counseling for his departure.


I know most of our soldiers out there fighting for us our good guys. I may not support the war but I support the soldiers. He must have really went out of his way to antagonize his fellow soldiers.

New York Times article
danielost
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Apr 26 2008, 02:35 PM) *
exactly. hey God told Bush to attack. no different than the extreamists really.



Sorry no God did not tell Bush to attack. Bush prayed to God hoping he was doing the right thing.
norwood1026
He has a right to believe has he wants to or doesn't believe in this case. Just because he wanted to hold a meeting for athiest does not mean he was looking for trouble. How dare him tell others about this meeting! rolleyes.gif The horror of it all. Because he is an athiest he should of kept quiet?
I do not see where he said he posted fliers about the meeting. I get the feeling that some people would of took his side if he would of been a Christian then it would of been ok... sounds like double standard more then anythhing else. This just proves that if you don't keep your mouth shut & follow what others say & do you get harrased for it.



So much for being able to speak your mind...
danielost
QUOTE (norwood1026 @ Apr 26 2008, 03:38 PM) *
He has a right to believe has he wants to or doesn't believe in this case. Just because he wanted to hold a meeting for athiest does not mean he was looking for trouble. How dare him tell others about this meeting! rolleyes.gif The horror of it all. Because he is an athiest he should of kept quiet?
I do not see where he said he posted fliers about the meeting. I get the feeling that some people would of took his side if he would of been a Christian then it would of been ok... sounds like double standard more then anythhing else. This just proves that if you don't keep your mouth shut & follow what others say & do you get harrased for it.



So much for being able to speak your mind...



Your right he has the right to believe what he wants to believe. He however does not have the right to sue because the army doesn't believe what he believes. This is what I think this law suit is all about. He wants to do away with religion in the military.


This is also what all the other law suits in the country on religion is all about. Forcing non-belief onto everyone. This is my view.


Reread the op. He didn't start being harassed until after he filed his lawsuit.
~ MacDDT ~
QUOTE (norwood1026 @ Apr 26 2008, 04:38 PM) *
He has a right to believe has he wants to or doesn't believe in this case. Just because he wanted to hold a meeting for athiest does not mean he was looking for trouble. How dare him tell others about this meeting! rolleyes.gif The horror of it all. Because he is an athiest he should of kept quiet?
I do not see where he said he posted fliers about the meeting. I get the feeling that some people would of took his side if he would of been a Christian then it would of been ok... sounds like double standard more then anythhing else. This just proves that if you don't keep your mouth shut & follow what others say & do you get harrased for it.



So much for being able to speak your mind...

Maybe some feel that it's a Holy War and an Atheist has no business being there
norwood1026
QUOTE (danielost @ Apr 26 2008, 09:43 PM) *
Your right he has the right to believe what he wants to believe. He however does not have the right to sue because the army doesn't believe what he believes. This is what I think this law suit is all about. He wants to do away with religion in the military.

This is also what all the other law suits in the country on religion is all about. Forcing nonbelief onto everyone. This is my view.



Unless there was something that isn't said in the article like his CO told him to go to church or something like that I agee. I don't think he was forcing anyone to believe as he does, however he does have the right to meeting with others who feel the same way he does. Thats a heck of a assumption by says he wants to do away with religion I think thats more of a personal statement then anything else.
Rosewin
If that is the case daniel I am sure the atheist camp will have to find another person. This guy seems a firebrand in garnering so much opposition when so many other atheists serve without problems and he does not seem that bright in that he is already making contradictory statements. This case does not stand a chance but it rather seems more of an attempt to just generate publicity. Also the nerve of people who would criticize our troops by even hinting that they are somehow singling out atheists when they are busy putting their lives on the line. This one atheist clearly singled himself out.
norwood1026
QUOTE (MacDDT @ Apr 26 2008, 09:45 PM) *
Maybe some feel that it's a Holy War and an Atheist has no business being there



So what? He was just as much right to be there then anyone else of whatever faith he signed up to be in the miltary it's his right.
norwood1026
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 26 2008, 09:48 PM) *
If that is the case daniel I am sure the atheist camp will have to find another person. This guy seems a firebrand in garnering so much opposition when so many atheist server without problems and he does not seem that bright in that he is already making contradictory statements. This case does not stand a chance but it rather seems more of an attempt to just generate publicity. Also the nerve of people who would criticize our troops by even hinting that they are somehow singling out atheist when they are busy putting their lives on the line. This one atheist clearly singled himself out.





Again your making this sound like a double standards of sorts where are these contradictory statements? He said he wanted to have meetings for the athiest there it never said he went out & posted fliers or told me to come.
~ MacDDT ~
QUOTE (norwood1026 @ Apr 26 2008, 04:50 PM) *
So what? He was just as much right to be there then anyone else of whatever faith he signed up to be in the miltary it's his right.

Hey man, I'm just trying to understand the abstract thinking that was involved in the harassment. I don't disagree with you.
__Kratos__
QUOTE (danielost @ Apr 26 2008, 03:17 PM) *
Other than him taking people to church I don't see anything here where anyone made him do anything. And if he didn't want to take them to church I am sure they would have had someone else drive them.

I also don't see them attack him because of his lack of faith. But rather because he is sueing the army over their faith in God.


You don't?

QUOTE
Known as "the atheist guy," Hall has been called immoral, a devil worshipper and -- just as severe to some soldiers -- gay, none of which, he says, is true. Hall even drove fellow soldiers to church in Iraq and paused while they prayed before meals.


He and other atheists just have just as much right to hold meetings as other people with beliefs do.
Rosewin
A war zone is the stupidest place to inject the debate of atheism vs religion into for many reasons.
SS79
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 26 2008, 10:12 PM) *
A war zone is the stupidest place to inject the debate of atheist vs religion into for many reasons.


Yet its perfectly okay for people to pray there ?? . its common for people in that enviroment to pray together at which point anyone who doesnt believe has to respect that . should work bothways . IMO
danielost
QUOTE (norwood1026 @ Apr 26 2008, 03:47 PM) *
Unless there was something that isn't said in the article like his CO told him to go to church or something like that I agee. I don't think he was forcing anyone to believe as he does, however he does have the right to meeting with others who feel the same way he does. Thats a heck of a assumption by says he wants to do away with religion I think thats more of a personal statement then anything else.



He states that no one but a major said anything to him about his beliefs until after he filed his lawsuit.

When I was in basic training the army broke it's own rules to make sure I could go to church. me and three others. we were/are mormons.
Rosewin
QUOTE (SS79 @ Apr 26 2008, 04:14 PM) *
Yet its perfectly okay for people to pray there ?? . its common for people in that enviroment to pray together at which point anyone who doesnt believe has to respect that . should work bothways . IMO


Most Americans will be in total agreement with you as am I. I just find it highly distasteful he would use the war zone as a place to start a debate regarding atheism and the to further antagonize those serving in such an environment.
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (danielost @ Apr 26 2008, 05:35 PM) *
He states that no one but a major said anything to him about his beliefs until after he filed his lawsuit.

When I was in basic training the army broke it's own rules to make sure I could go to church. me and three others. we were/are mormons.


your wrong.

QUOTE
It eventually came out in Iraq in 2007, when he was in a firefight. Hall was a gunner on a Humvee, which took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said.

"I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,' " Hall said. "I've never believed I was going to a happy place. You get one life. When I die, I'm worm food."

The issue came to a head when, according to Hall, a superior officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, threatened to bring charges against him for trying to hold a meeting of atheists in Iraq. Welborn has denied Hall's allegations.

Hall said he had had enough but feared that he wouldn't get support from Welborn's superiors. He turned to Mikey Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.


yet can christians hold meetings in Iraq ???? ( church , mass , prayer ) if so how hypocritical of them. so much for freedom !


ah ha !

QUOTE
An estimated 1,000 faithful LDS military men come together weekly in predominantly Muslim Iraq and Afghanistan to find strength and peace in the middle of conflict in a land steeped in Biblical history.


http://www.byumedia.com/story.cfm/61326

Engineers build place in Iraq for U.S. Soldiers to worship
In-Depth Coverage

Army News Service

Release Date: 4/7/2004

By Spc. Bryan KinKade

BAGHDAD, Iraq (Army News Service, April 7, 2004) - From the ground up, a 200-seat chapel in Iraq is being built to give U.S. Soldiers a place to worship.

Engineers from the Missouri National Guard, put their carpentry and masonry skills to the test.

"These Soldiers are hungry for services," said Lt. Col. David Moran, a chaplain from 1st Cavalry Division, Fort Hood, Texas. "When I got here a little over four weeks ago, it was a level concrete pad."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...40407-usa01.htm

like I said .......... hypocrites.
~ MacDDT ~
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 26 2008, 05:35 PM) *
Most Americans will be in total agreement with you as am I. I just find it highly distasteful he would use the war zone as a place to start a debate regarding atheism and the to further antagonize those serving in such an environment.

How could a meeting of atheists antagonize anyone else, a christian wouldnt even be there.
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 26 2008, 05:35 PM) *
Most Americans will be in total agreement with you as am I. I just find it highly distasteful he would use the war zone as a place to start a debate regarding atheism and the to further antagonize those serving in such an environment.


he didn't start the debate ......... his CO did by making it a problem when it wasn't. antagonize those serving ? they need to get over it or stop religion all together in the military.
SS79
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 26 2008, 09:35 PM) *
Most Americans will be in total agreement with you as am I. I just find it highly distasteful he would use the war zone as a place to start a debate regarding atheism and the to further antagonize those serving in such an environment.


I'm not convinced his motive was to antagonize . why if that were the case would he respect others by driving them for their prayer service . and await in the car for them . I'm inclined to believe he is looking to be able to express his opinions without fear or prejudice . wether that be in a meeting or not . and for that he has every right .
Blind Atrocity
He drove them of his own free will to church, as the article says. He even stopped to allow them their right to pray. He's suing because he's not being treated fairly because of his lack of faith.

Just because you're a Christian and believe in God doesn't mean that you are treating people right. Christians still need to have respect for others, even if they are claimed "athiests."
norwood1026
QUOTE (SS79 @ Apr 26 2008, 10:49 PM) *
I'm not convinced his motive was to antagonize . why if that were the case would he respect others by driving them for their prayer service . and await in the car for them . I'm inclined to believe he is looking to be able to express his opinions without fear or prejudice . wether that be in a meeting or not . and for that he has every right .



Nice catch I was wondering how long before someone brought it up.
~ MacDDT ~
QUOTE (danielost @ Apr 26 2008, 05:35 PM) *
When I was in basic training the army broke it's own rules to make sure I could go to church. me and three others. we were/are mormons.

How did the Army break it's own rules for the three of you, were you exempt from duties so you could go to church?
norwood1026
QUOTE (MacDDT @ Apr 26 2008, 10:07 PM) *
How did the Army break it's own rules for the three of you, were you exempt from duties so you could go to church?



Unless your someone special the miltary does not break rules & you have to be VERY special indeed.
danielost
QUOTE (MacDDT @ Apr 26 2008, 05:07 PM) *
How did the Army break it's own rules for the three of you, were you exempt from duties so you could go to church?



They allowed missionaries on the base. and they allowed us to go where they were instead of a normal military church building they provided a room for us to meet in.
danielost
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Apr 26 2008, 04:46 PM) *
he didn't start the debate ......... his CO did by making it a problem when it wasn't. antagonize those serving ? they need to get over it or stop religion all together in the military.




As I said.
Rosewin
QUOTE
Weinstein previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on its students at the academy. A federal judge threw out that lawsuit in 2006. Those issues are being raised in the Hall lawsuit.


Seems he has a history of being problematic and attempting to sue. This definitely appears to be a mere publicity stunt.

QUOTE
Hall's attorneys also say that Fort Riley has permitted a culture promoting Christianity and anti-Islamic sentiment, including posters quoting conservative columnist Ann Coulter and sale of a book, "A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam," at the post exchange. Hall took photos of the poster and book.

Weinstein said actions amounted the "force-feeding" of fundamentalist Christianity by the military's command structure and could not be tolerated.

The lawsuit also alleges that Gates permits a military culture in which officers are encouraged to pressure soldiers to adopt and espouse fundamentalist Christian beliefs, and in which activities by Christian organizations are sanctioned.

It also says the military permits proselytizing by soldiers, tolerates anti-Semitism and the placing of religious symbols on military equipment, and allows the use of military e-mail accounts to send religious statements.


daniel you were right this is trying to stamp out the free expression of religion among our troops. It is also doubtful that they are attempting to convert anyone but let us see how these accusations made by his legal council play out. Troops should be able to express their religion since no one should have to leave their faith at the door when signing up.

QUOTE
The Pentagon has said that the military values and respects religious freedoms, but that accommodating religious practices should not interfere with unit cohesion, readiness, standards or discipline.


Very good point here. The military finds its strength in the unit and not the individual.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,335455,00.html
~ MacDDT ~
QUOTE (danielost @ Apr 26 2008, 06:31 PM) *
They allowed missionaries on the base. and they allowed us to go where they were instead of a normal military church building they provided a room for us to meet in.

So this was done because you were mormons? It really wasn't breaking rules though was it (it was more to accommodate you)?
danielost
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Apr 26 2008, 04:46 PM) *
he didn't start the debate ......... his CO did by making it a problem when it wasn't. antagonize those serving ? they need to get over it or stop religion all together in the military.



.
So basically if one doesn't believe than non can believe because we don't want to upset that one person.
danielost
QUOTE (MacDDT @ Apr 26 2008, 05:36 PM) *
So this was done because you were mormons? It really wasn't breaking rules though was it (it was more to accommodate you)?



And your point is. They still went out of their way to accommodate 3 people. where as to accommodate this one person they didn't have to do anything.


If I had been in that humvee with him. I wouldn't have asked him if he believed in God. I would have said something to the affect that God must have been watching out for him that day.
norwood1026
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 26 2008, 11:33 PM) *
Seems he has a history of being problematic and attempting to sue. This definitely appears to be a mere publicity stunt.

daniel you were right this is trying to stamp out the free expression of religion among our troops. It is also doubtful that they are attempting to convert anyone but let us see how these accusations made by his legal council play out. Troops should be able to express their religion since no one should have to leave their faith at the door when signing up.

Very good point here. The military finds its strength in the unit and not the individual.




I was wondering how long before someone found a side of the story to support their theory on what happaned.... & it doesn't surprise me that you picked Fox news either.... Fox news is based towards anyone who is not a right wingers ..... & those idtios are VERY Pro-Bush. He's not trying to stamp out anyones belief if he is then why did he drive those people to church?
Belle.
QUOTE (MacDDT @ Apr 26 2008, 09:45 PM) *
Maybe some feel that it's a Holy War and an Atheist has no business being there


How closely are the war and religion intertwined in the average soldiers beliefs? Does anyone have any idea?
~ MacDDT ~
QUOTE (danielost @ Apr 26 2008, 06:40 PM) *
And your point is. They still went out of their way to accommodate 3 people. where as to accommodate this one person they didn't have to do anything.

No you misunderstood, I just wanted to clarify that (and I think this is how it went) you wanted your own place to pray rather than the existing church that was obviously used for another religion. I just didn't see how they broke the rules
Watchful
QUOTE (norwood1026 @ Apr 26 2008, 02:36 PM) *
Hall was in Qatar when the lawsuit was filed on September 18 in federal court in Kansas City, Kansas. Other soldiers learned of it and he feared for his own safety. Once, Hall said, a group of soldiers followed him, harassing him, but no one did anything to make it stop.



My husband is Air Force, and as a military wife, I know what a sacrifice it is to fight for one's freedom! Those soldiers, in my opinion, are wrong!! They are soldiers to fight for the freedom of all, and their distroying the freedom of one of their own!!!! This, I find shameful!!

I have seen a level of this at one base I lived in. I have come to the conclusion, we are not free, only a select few!! I want this man's story to be heard, and other Atheists to do their part to bring some real freedom to everyone involved.



QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Apr 26 2008, 05:06 PM) *
He and other atheists just have just as much right to hold meetings as other people with beliefs do.

Bingo! Thank you Kratos.
norwood1026
QUOTE (Watchful @ Apr 26 2008, 11:05 PM) *


My husband is Air Force, and as a military wife, I know what a sacrifice it is to fight for one's freedom! Those soldiers, in my opinion, are wrong!! They are soldiers to fight for the freedom of all, and their distroying the freedom of one of their own!!!! This, I find shameful!!

I have seen a level of this at one base I lived in. I have come to the conclusion, we are not free, only a select few!! I want this man's story to be heard, and other Atheists to do their part to bring some real freedom to everyone involved.



Your excatly right things like this need to be brought to light, it should not matter what your religion is or is not you should have the right to be treated with respect. I highly respect people like your husband while I do not agree with this war I do hold those fighting it in the highest regard! thumbsup.gif
danielost
QUOTE (MacDDT @ Apr 26 2008, 05:51 PM) *
No you misunderstood, I just wanted to clarify that (and I think this is how it went) you wanted your own place to pray rather than the existing church that was obviously used for another religion. I just didn't see how they broke the rules



No, wrong I don't know about the others. But I did not ask them to do this for me. They did it on their own.
4dplane
I personally believe that people should be able to practice whatever they want; sounds great, but do we really expect this from the US military as a whole? It's not like these people are trained to service the community in a calm and peaceful way, they are trained to kill and be killed. So expecting there to be a great freedom of individualism in the military is really looking at it backwards. When you join an organization like the military you are joining a collective (not a community) - get with the program or get out!

This is how I assume the military looks at it.
~ MacDDT ~
QUOTE (danielost @ Apr 26 2008, 07:52 PM) *
No, wrong I don't know about the others. But I did not ask them to do this for me. They did it on their own.

Ok, I believe the army was trying to be fair to your religion and I didn't mean to imply that you were disruptive
QUOTE (danielost @ Apr 26 2008, 05:35 PM) *
When I was in basic training the army broke it's own rules to make sure I could go to church. me and three others. we were/are mormons.

This is the part of your story that I don't understand ... what were the rules the army broke? ( I'm not trying to give you a hard time danielost, If I don't understand something I ask questions so I will have a better understanding of it ... this is just how I am)
danielost
QUOTE (MacDDT @ Apr 26 2008, 07:37 PM) *
Ok, I believe the army was trying to be fair to your religion and I didn't mean to imply that you were disruptive

This is the part of your story that I don't understand ... what were the rules the army broke? ( I'm not trying to give you a hard time danielost, If I don't understand something I ask questions so I will have a better understanding of it ... this is just how I am)




The missionaries were not military. The base I was on in basic is a closed base. In other words to be on base you have to be a member of the military or a retired member of the military.
~ MacDDT ~
QUOTE (danielost @ Apr 26 2008, 09:10 PM) *
The missionaries were not military. The base I was on in basic is a closed base. In other words to be on base you have to be a member of the military or a retired member of the military.

Thanks danielost
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (Clovis @ Apr 26 2008, 06:33 PM) *
Seems he has a history of being problematic and attempting to sue. This definitely appears to be a mere publicity stunt.

try reading. I'd sue too.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/06/...ain919947.shtml

daniel you were right this is trying to stamp out the free expression of religion among our troops. It is also doubtful that they are attempting to convert anyone but let us see how these accusations made by his legal council play out. Troops should be able to express their religion since no one should have to leave their faith at the door when signing up.

and neither should he be harassed for having no religious belief. and the individual still has rights.

Very good point here. The military finds its strength in the unit and not the individual.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,335455,00.html

Weinstein previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on its students at the academy. A federal judge threw out that lawsuit in 2006. Those issues are being raised in the Hall lawsuit.


Seems he has a history of being problematic and attempting to sue. This definitely appears to be a mere publicity stunt.

QUOTE
Hall's attorneys also say that Fort Riley has permitted a culture promoting Christianity and anti-Islamic sentiment, including posters quoting conservative columnist Ann Coulter and sale of a book, "A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam," at the post exchange. Hall took photos of the poster and book.

Weinstein said actions amounted the "force-feeding" of fundamentalist Christianity by the military's command structure and could not be tolerated.

The lawsuit also alleges that Gates permits a military culture in which officers are encouraged to pressure soldiers to adopt and espouse fundamentalist Christian beliefs, and in which activities by Christian organizations are sanctioned.

It also says the military permits proselytizing by soldiers, tolerates anti-Semitism and the placing of religious symbols on military equipment, and allows the use of military e-mail accounts to send religious statements.

my sister in laws bother , of native American belief ( blackfoot) , agrees that the military has taken to pushing christanity and demonizing muslims. One of the things he has said is that recruits once in Iraq are told all muslims are the enemy. Some claim to be doing 'God's work' by killing them. fact.

God's Basic Training - soldiers with weapons and bibles
Click to view attachment



daniel you were right this is trying to stamp out the free expression of religion among our troops. It is also doubtful that they are attempting to convert anyone but let us see how these accusations made by his legal council play out. Troops should be able to express their religion since no one should have to leave their faith at the door when signing up.

no one is hindering christians ......... it's the christians hindering others . for example -



Religion and the Military: A Growing Ethical Dilemma


http://www.stormingmedia.us/17/1768/A176844.html

Military Chaplains Controversy
January 20, 2006

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: Now, the flap over proselytizing by military chaplains and others in uniform. On one side are Christian evangelicals who insist they have an obligation to try to convert non-Christians; on the other, servicemen of other faiths, or none, who don't want to be proselytized or discriminated against if they're not evangelicals. Deborah Potter reports.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/...21/feature.html
QUOTE
The Pentagon has said that the military values and respects religious freedoms, but that accommodating religious practices should not interfere with unit cohesion, readiness, standards or discipline.

accommodate one you have to accommodate all or none at all.



interesting site on religion in the military.

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/
danielost
QUOTE
Hall's attorneys also say that Fort Riley has permitted a culture promoting Christianity and anti-Islamic sentiment, including posters quoting conservative columnist Ann Coulter and sale of a book, "A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam," at the post exchange. Hall took photos of the poster and book.
===============================================================================


So this is the only book that the px is selling.


We are at war with a large group of Islam right now. What are they supposed to have posters against Catholics?
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