I never heard anyone declare war on Islam

I think you had better reread what I wrote and read it more carefully this time. I will not defend against something I did not say.

I read it and I understood the undertones, My comment stands

I can't say that this is surprising Look at the vast majority of where recruits come from, and the bias should be obvious. Religion and the Military have had a strong bond for a very long time. I think it relates to the deep sense of duty that many feel in religion.

Issuing statements saying "that discrimination will not be tolerated regardless of race, religion or gender in the military" Doesn't mean that the problems likely run deep.

Thank you norwood,


You say this as a whole generalization of all branches, which it is not. I'm an Air force wife, I see a different look at it, a more adminastrative way of things being done, as opposed as a more efficient way, that I saw in the army, which we lived next to in New Jersey. I do not think it's just being trained to kill and be killed, I believe some are being trained to fight correctly and to surive. Do you expect those who work on the planes, like my husband did, to kill and be killed? What about the adminastration part of all branches? You see my point.
And it is a communitiy, I know, I lived it for nine years on a base, and still being part of it near bases and what have you for more than 15 years. In a sense, it is a community. Plus, one has to deal with the individual, or you'll have moral problems, which I see plenty all the time. The military has to deal with this, or there will be bigger problems. If you get with the program, you self-distruct. You get out, and no one will be in to fight for our freedom, you see my point?

One should also take note, that you are also dealing with the families on bases as well. Their religious freedom should also be present. I say this, being on a base, that for the first years of being there, it was what it was. In the last few years, before PCSing, there was more of God being pushed. At the last promotion ceremony, the colonel who hosted it did a prayer and told everyone to close their eyes, and prayed. I was incensed. I kept my eyes open, and stared at the speaker angry. I'm sure they saw me, and would know that they have no right doing anything. If they did, I made them say something for the Jewish, every form of other Christian groups, the Wiccan, the Muslims, and definately the atheists. The link to that military freedom site, I also find interesting. If I get one article about the site right, then I think the same. How can we show that we are a military force to fight and protect everyone's freedom in their rights and beliefs, when they impede their own. That is hypercritical. I actaully find the saying 'freedom of religion, not freedom from religion' wrong. If it is not freedom all the way, then there isn't freedom for all period. And how dare anyone says we are free at all, if they say that.

This is what I mean from it becoming problematic. If this is not dealt with, then I truely think there will be a civil religious war in our own country, and we cannot not ever be respected for a true fighting force ever!

Like I said, this needs to be dealt with. Not just as an individual's case, where his rights and freedoms should be shown are being respected in this country, but as also a case to prove that we are dangerously ignoring what kind of country we are, and what it really means to be free.

Just.... beautifull this.

Thank you.

Welcome hun, I have a bad habbit of, atleast some parts, disagreeing with almost everything I read and when reading this I found myself sitting and nodding so... oh well

Hey Watchful,
Thanks for the info and point of view...

I do believe that all branches of the military train to kill and at the same time, they understand strictly that their chance of death is greatly increased. But as you stated, and I agree, not all functions of the armed forces are constantly reinforced with the practice of kill and be killed.

But BMF US soldiers on the streets of Bagdad are; and rightfully so, that is their job and function - kill and be killed.

Your husband is only there because he supports the part of the US military that does the killing.

War always = killing

And for supporting our freedoms, well in this war it has only taken them away!

And I like to thank you for your prompt reply.



Granted, this is how you believe it to be. I understand. I'm just curious, how do you come to believe that? If it is ok for you tell me how you see it? I'm just curious.


Granted, that is more than likely true. I'm not saying that not all military brance soldiers are not trained to kill, I'm just saying that not everyone in the U.S. services are trained this way. I just assumed by what you previously wrote, that you thought this way.


I was reading it like you wrote it that everyone in all the brances were trained that way. As a military wife, whose husband's career field was fixing planes, and now is a recruiter, that is not what I am totally aware with. Plus, from my perspective, the military has changed and grew in which how they train and educate their recruits, in going with the changing times. The shaping of each personal has changed, and I see this in how my husband explains about the service to new recruits. Granted, I'm going to probably see, maybe not from you, on how recruiters are liars or trained to do so, but I hope not. This is not only frowned on, it is punishable. Granted it is still there, but in rare cases and probably caught too. I'm reacting to the statement and how definate and generalizing it looked to me 4dplane. *Shrugs*


My husband is home now, and is a recruiter. When he was there, he was supporting the Air Force, but not the killing. I wonder how you perceive this to be? Shall I ask my husband?

War always = Killing? War = a great excuse to make killing right?

The rights need to go right back, even in this war!!!

Shall I post some links of all the branches of the U.S. military so you can read about it yourself? I just asking this, as to try to be helpful in helping you understand, in what I live.

Granted, there is a lot of non-idealic situations occuring in the military, but I don't think this it is right to say that it is the way. There is a lot of non-idealic situations going on in our society, and does one say that is the way it is, so it must be our point of view and a excuse to let it be?
I'm just wondering.

Well I have never been in the military or any branch of the US Gov. so that should tell you a lot of how I have come to my understanding of the Military. Besides that, what else is there to say? I obtain my information through family, friends, books, radio, news, internet, work, parties etc… I have met a hand full of Iraqi war vets – great people as far as could tell.

The function of the military is to kill people, this I believe from the view of history and current time. All people who are vital to the function of the military are held responsible in my mind. Your husband is responsible for the killing because he plays a direct role in the function of the military.



And I have agreed, it is to general a statement not because I meant it to be but because we sometime simplify or generalize our comments so people may read those vs. gloss over 12 paragraphs of sometimes too much information. Since you have asked I have stated it in more detail. I do believe my statement, just not as generalized as it was first stated.

I stated all of this of course in light of the original topic which is “Atheist soldier claims harassment”. I believe religion brings a unity to the military that is not there unless most of the people are part of it; and when they are that makes the military better at its core function – killing.

Now you can tell me this is not true and I will listen to you but I don’t think I could ever believe you. My point of view is not about the individual military personal; it is about the creed and zealous function of the military as a whole; and that function has always been there, and the ones who do it best are the ones still hear today.

They really need to form pure atheist units and pure homosexual units and pure whatever else units. I bet the homosexual units would be the ones who look out most for each other. Is this bad logic?

Ah yes…

The lesbian unit, they would look after their fellow soldiers with a heightened instinct to protect them, and it would be very sexy...

No, I think it’s not good logic; for one, most people are heterosexual, and two most people in the US Military are Christians not Atheist; if they were you might be on to something.

To me it makes sense that the Military tries to keep out any verbally anti-religious person. The group with these people would not be running as a team, a unit, a family with strong convictions; they would be in contrast with themselves and how is that going to keep them alive? If you are homosexual and no one knows or no one cares then there is no problem; same goes for the atheist.

That's just wrong. Why single them out because a few stupid bigots have a stick up their bum and are vocal about it? The USA is NOT a christian state. They can suck it up or get the hell out. They have no right to tell others what to believe or what to do just because their "holy" book tells them that they're true believers. This nation is founded on freedom and that includes belief freedom... Not an imposed nazi style faith system where you believe or are singled out.

By your own logic, it would have still been acceptable for blacks to have their own water fountains, pools and stores... But hey, crazy them they thought they were living in the USA... Land of the free... But to make this even worse you want veterns that are fighting and dying for those very freedoms to accept that they should be second class citizens and treated like scum bags. Digusting and it is wrong.

Erm, how is it not? :S

The founding of this great nation purposely left out religion... for religious freedom. It's majority christian but it is not a christian nation for them to rule.

There is no base that offers basic training that will not allow civilians as guests to be on, if they are signed on by someone. In this case, they probably were sponsored on by the bases Chaplain. They didn't break a rule, they accommodated you, likely because the Chaplain or someone was just cool and tolerant. As it should be.

As an Air Force wife, who lived on an Air Force base for nine years, and had my husband stationed with us living near couple for the past 17 years, eqgumby is right. Civilians get the better end of the deal, I have noticed.

So, in a sense, we could say that my husband is a murderer? Maybe not, but from your knowledge that you say have gained it from, I cannot agree with it. Although, you are honest, and you have your opinions.




I got ya on the generalized notion part.


Unity yes, but not because of killing. A more regimented, highly disciplined lifestyle.


I know, and I cannot force you. I am reading your opinion here.


And I can so heartily disagree, because I see and live it differently. I just think you are making this as a statement of truth, and I wanted to tell you, by experience, that it is not.

I can tell you have never been under fire.....because if you had you would know that a person does not care what the next guys belief is.....just as long as he covers your a** as you would cover his.

And yes.....that is bad logic.

I have been shot at more times than I wish to count.

I did bring up the issue based on historical precedent though.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality...In_the_military

So we should seprate people because of thier sexual & religous belifes? WOW! How many law suits would that bring on?




One Day Untill Ironman!

Myself personally I do not think we should separate troops within our military, especially within the context of our culture, but it is an idea I have pondered since historically troops were highly stratified. Usually they were divided and composed of separate ethnic groups, the last example that comes to mind is the San Patricios in the Mexican-American War, a battalion of Irish Catholics considered heroes among many Mexicans, and they have also had class divisions in the past, the most famous example is the cavalry of ancient Rome which consisted solely of the nobles, there were reasons for that of course.

its not your duty to ask why but to do or die,
you dont have freedom of speech in the miltary,matter of fact you have to ask pemission to speek freely...

im athiest and it wasnt till i came to this board that i ever even thought that as a non-beliver i should be ofended when someone would tell me im wrong or would try and "save me",thats just what they do..thats what their religion tells them to do i just didnt agree with them,,sometimes i would argue or other times just laugh and walk away...but i never really openly engaged the god conversation because i didnt want to deal with people and their shocked looks on ther face...or have them feel sorry for me,you know everything that comes with teling someone you dont believe in god for the first time..


but in the miltary i can see a few young stressd out, scared and superstishus soilders,would be affraid of a athiest in the group fear of god striking him down and getting them in the cross fire,,bringing bad luck upon them,,,but i know more then a few marines that wouldnt care as long as you could do your job..there are plenty of times people of like minded attitudes can have private meetings and not gain the attention of everyone else,the man should have used his prayer time to have a private moment to collect his thought or whatever he needed,but why make waves then be upset when you get wet.plenty of people go threw their carrier as athiest and never have a problem,,we as a group walk against the grain walk against what the majority of the world believes in one form or another,, why are we still as shocked as they are(finding out we dont believe) when they try to make us see the error of our ways? to me i wouldnt add to the stress and fear i would keep my head low about certain things and stand up for what really counts..just my .02$

Your right however you still have the right to believe as you want.

Man asc that is deserves much respect and makes much sense. Not only because on the one hand you yourself respect the consensus view and know that in the end everyone has a job to do so let's get it done, but on the other that you kept your ideals in tact through and through without making those waves which would make you get wet. Also just because of the simple fact you are or were a soldier, in and of itself, that deserves proper respect.

For sex, yes.
The military does not need to pile people who are sexually attracted to each other into the same showers.
That is just plain stupid. It takes away a basic right, the right to not be sexually exposed and exploited.
That would be worse than forcing muslim personnel to eat pork or denying last rites to Catholics, since religion is a choice.

Exactly!



One day untill Ironman!

Dances Around - Yayaaaa!
(not to hijack thread but..)
Yayaaa!!!

I thought we were talking about modern warfare (oxymoron I know) not ancient Greece.

We are exchanging ideas on a forum. Communicating if you will.

wait i cant take that compliment,i was a miltary B.R.A.T. growing up spent plenty of time on bases and around troops and have the majority of my friends and some family join the marines but i never did i was to hard headed to get yelled at without opening my mouth.....but i grew up in the deep south,strong catholic family sorounded by strict southern baptist,where the football team would pray before and after everygame till now being a river boat captain where people are nervouse riding with someone that dosnt believe in god because they think my sins will jump on them and drown both of us...so i could see how it could be in a war zone from my experiences and from talking to close family and friends,,haha one of them keeps trying to get his dog tags to say, BAD next to relegion haha,,, but as a whole being a athiest sets us apart from the rest of the flock i cant see how we should feel offended when we run into the randome a****** who thinks he is better then us,,because if we wouldnt have said no thanks i dont believe in god he would have never looked at us twice,,i just take the phamphlet turn the corner and do like everyone else(even god fearing people),and throw it away no fuss no muss..

i never ment to make it seem like i was in the miltary at all sorry if my post read that way,,i would never disrespect any of our troops like that..

Do you think that every gay man is attracted to every other man out there regardless of anything other than they are the gender they are attracted to? How is showering sexually exploitive to people?
I am assuming you are female, so excuse me if I am wrong, but if you were in a shower room with 50 men, would you just immediately be attracted to all of them and want to have sex with each and every one of them at that moment? Considering that all body types, body hair amounts, hair color etc etc is represented there, don't you think that is a bit of a ridiculous generalization? Most people have a preferred type involving many characteristics that need to come together in order to be found attractive to them.

I am not attracted to every member of the gender that I am attracted to, and if I am friends with someone or know that their orientation does not coorrespond with mine, I am definitely not attracted. It seems like people think that gay men just want anyone and anything that comes along, and are just dying to get in some straight guys pants and that is not really the case. Most gay people are only interested in other gay people. Just like straight people. I go to the gym, shower and don't even pay attention to the other folks in the shower room. By my mere presence there, am I violating these folks rights?

Aye, and I can also see how being an atheist, surrounded by a strong Catholic family, in turn surrounded by strict Souther Baptist, would lend itself to a unique outlook in life. The dog tags saying BAD next to religion would be humorous. BTW what does B.R.A.T. stand for exactly? Is it also an acronym?

I am actually pretty surprised, and suspect that we are only hearing part of the story. I don't know of any atheists that were harassed in the military. The only harassing at all was the ultra-fundies that insisted church came first, and claimed they couldn't work on Tuesday nites or whatever it was, because of their "religion". THEY got harassed. I told them Sunday was their day, and they could go worship at the base chapel for their one hour, but any other time they were available to work, just like the rest of the people in the military.

20 years, and I NEVER was pressured or witnessed any one being religiously pressured in any direction.

i never said the man didnt have a right to believe or not believe in what he wants,,,i was simply saying that being a part of a group that is trained to think and act as unit,setting yourself apart from the rest of the flock dosnt make much sence..

Nice derailment. This response is inappropriate. BA wasn't even making a statement of any sort about homosexuality. Start a new thread. This one is NOT about homosexuality, and you misinterpreted BA's post in any case. She is saying that the military is already segregated sexually. That's why our showers and restrooms say MEN or WOMEN on them. We have group/open showers, with little to no privacy at ALL, and we generally prefer to bathe with our own sex...unless of course we are at home . Then some "opposite sex soap sharing" may be in order.

Born Raised And Traped,,,living the life of the military with having no choice in the matter.....

This was the first and then the segregation comment on sexual and religious preference came up, so she was replying to a statement about homosexuality. Pardon me for asking a question in reply to what someone said. I thought this was a forum but apparently it is only for posts that fit with what you think is appropriate. I will remember that next time and check with you before I post.

Below was the post you replied too.

The part I underlined was what this was about. There was a parallel being drawn, not a statement of position on homosexuality. As a matter of fact, the above statement makes NO reference to homosexuality in the military, or anywhere.

Feel free to PM me all your posts before you submit them for editing.

You.... deep breath... so you think that indoctrination of a fighting force to hate various aspects of the CULTURE of the PEOPLE whose country you have invaded, who themselves have nothing to do with the conflict, is just fine do you? YOU the USA are "at war" with NOONE. you are engaged in the WAR on TERRORISM. Please forgive the caps, but it's been a long time since I have been this incensed! A war against Terrorism? Is every terrorist in the world a muslim? CAN there actually be a war on a concept? Is this actually a war, or just another american atrocity? And furthermore, the idea of indoctrinating ones troops to demonise the "enemy" (in this case including innocent women and children) is an old one. It goes hand in hand with the other invasion tactic which involves tacit approval of rape and assasination as tools to demoralise your enemy. Perhaps, along with fox and that sub human coulter, you reckon those might be justified as well?
Looking forward to your answer.

I believe our very own civilian culture demonizes Islam and the misunderstanding of cultures is a very sad thing. If more of our own populace dropped their hatred maybe this war would finish all too sooner. As far as soldiers, whether the war is just or not, this one is not IMHO, but their number one objective is too remain alive. I am in no way going to advocate that they be sissyfied and not get trained the best way possible. Not sure how exactly demonizing an enemy within the military works, the overall pros and cons, but they are not and should not act like a police force but a military force. There is no room for babying the enemy or their populace in war. I say let us not play armchair commandos in such matters and let the professional military strategist and theorist figure out the best method of molding a soldiers psyche.

With all that said I do understand this war has other dynamics such as the military is acting like a police force and that many of the decisions are not made by generals but by politicians. In my eyes never a good way to run a military campaign. The second reason, politicians acting like generals, is one of the main reasons Hitler lost WW2. Had he let his generals do the generaling maybe things would have turned out different. As far as the War on Terrorism though I doubt those at the very top actually want to win this thing but would rather use it for political gains and to keep making a profit out of it since many have ties to banking and other war time contractors who all make a profit in war while our soldiers and the innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan are the only ones that suffer.

You guys suck at staying on-topic.