Thanks - I think that clears it up for me.

Fundies aren't necessarily cruel. It's just that their decision to stop evaluating their behavior in the context of the world around them gives them such an easy excuse for being intolerant and unkind.

Ok, ok, it's good you say this is this way, for I thought I was reading from you that it was more than belief, but you saying it as truth.
Your post in question:



Everything in the form of statements. I'm sorry folks, I cannot readily take things here as opinion, unless it is in the form of an opinion. The post in question, came out like statements from my standpoint. I have noooooooooooo problem hearing about other people's experience, for I learn better from other people's experiences than from other people's lectures and orders to follow a certain belief system. In fact, when a poster tells their experience, their belief and their opinions about what they believe, I get interested at how they see it, and I put myself in their perspective, because I like to crawl into the minds of others to learn varying degrees of culture and belief destinctiveness. I have a problem when something is brought to my attention as fact, when it's only a belief system that cannot be proven.

QUOTE

Exactly!!!! I am just confused as to why your post in question wasn't explained as such an experience, instead of stating it like it's fact.



Well, I appreciate you didn't mean no disrespect, and now I can see that you don't. I just see something placed in statements, seems to tell me that it's a foregone conclusion and that means I should follow it.


Ok, I'm friggin anal and I think it's very important to not 'state belief systems as fact!'

It's like we're told that, God gave people a choice, or God told everyone about his love. I ask questions to those who say these things, not to find out about the belief system, but to find out why the poster says these things about everyone. I mean, why say that God gave everyone a choice, when I didn't.

Ok, I'll be blunt, you want to know why I know he didn't. Because I didn't go to church, or own and read a bible, and so it's seems that it's taken for granted everyone went to church growing up and is assumed that is where they got that choice. So, does that mean, God tells people these things through church and the bible? If so, then it's selective, and not everyone was told.

The other thing, Omnaka, and I think this should be reflected on, if you got this through your own non-affiliated religion experience, and if it's the truth, why doesn't anyone get this experience? Why should they seek it, and then it happens? In fact, do all seekers get this experience? Why isn't it documented? Isn't it a big gamble to say I should seek it, and then it doesn't happen and then I look to you for why it hadn't?

I have had my own experiences, but I know for one thing, it's not a foregone conclusion that it's a religious, God-like, experience. I cannot say it wasn't, but I cannot say it is either. But, being it just me having these experiences, it's ok to say to myself, that it works for me. To say you will get the same thing, uh, no, there is no way that it will happen, more than likely it wont. I have a better chance of convincing you about the spiritual aspects of chocolate and the great chocolate wall, but not every single person will have the experience I may get time and time and time again. It just cannot be concluded as a definate proof that it will be a definate experiece. (Ok, I know you are saying the same thing, roll with me here.............) but I find it not quite settling to say things, that can be a possible coincedence, as a definate thing for others. Bingo? Bingo!

I'm done!



Side note: I hope everyone studied this, for there will be a quiz on this tommorrow morning!!!
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Just kidding!

Look at the first line, interesting isn't it.
Has religion cured diseases? Helped make tangible differences to peoples lives?

How could someone who feels hatred and glares when other people pray ever be open enough to allow God to reveal themselves?

Iono maybe it takes positive belief instead of negative disbelief. I do know that people cannot force others to love them they can only be available for others to love them. I think God works that way too.

How could anyone who is God-centered and trusts God above everything ever be open enough to allow anything but God's will make sense? People see what they want to see, Clovis. If someone disbelieves, then they will find evidence to support that. If they believe, they will find evidence to support that. Therefore, in order to know the real truth of this world, we cannot have bias, presumptions, or expectations. Can anyone do this? No. It's part of being human. We will never know the truth until we learn to accept the truth.

Ya, I agree with all that exactly Lady O. Your statement makes perfect sense. I might slightly disagree with your answer to your question on if 'Can anyone do this?'

Well, yes, I'm sure there have been people like that in history. Perhaps people like Buddah, Confucius, Jesus, etc. simply had this quality and their teachings were changed in order for biased people to understand them. Jesus wouldn't have said men were better than women, which isn't something many of the people in that era would have said or even thought about. Jesus treated men and women rather equally, I find. Confucius (whose Analects I'm currently reading) felt that everyone should respect everyone else and treat them as equals. Respect your family, friends, neighbors, and people you don't know. Don't judge others before you get to know them. Confucius always declined to tell his disciples how to live on a religious basis, so that could be part of his unbiased attitude. Maybe all these famous people were just trying to convey the same basic message: Just accept people for who they are and believe what you want to believe as long as it hurts no one.

Some types of sorcery (such as described in Carlos Castaneda books) and beliefs (Zen Buddhism) call for even taking it a step further as to subdue the ego. The Yaqui sorcery even calls for more it calls for loosing your very identity, ties to family, ties to friends, ties to your very own house. As far as the ego it is so you do not even contaminate or hurt your own self by preconceived beliefs.

Awesome story here:



http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question...13111602AAYC9DS

how do you test your experience ? what proof do you have outside of yourself of your experience ? belief/faith has NO element of evidence. what one may experience may be due to mental deficit , illness , drugs , brainwashing , fever , chemical imbalance ect.. even a lie ............... all that would have to ruled out first before even concidering it as a experience of faith, and even if so ........... the experience is personal , not shared . there are no witnesses or anything measurable in any way shape or form.

where as science has evidence . evidence that may be added or detracted from or that may change as knowledge increases , but evidence nonetheless . We can all watch the apple fall to the ground. we can all watch the apple and cannon ball fall to the ground at the same rate. science.

Science superior ? in the fact that it has evidence yes.

Science might be superior to faith in your worldview. They are not even able to be on the same scale in mine. No one has a right to claim their view, whatever it is, is superior to another's. That is fundamentalism in a sense.

Evidence that one and all can see does not make science superior. You could love someone madly and die the next day and just because science was never able to prove it does not make it less real. Personal experience, even drug induced hallucinations, are every bit as real as an experience. Sure we can fall out of love, come down from a high, stop believing in things we once did...that does not mean those experiences are somehow inferior to science. They are different paradigms. I can see the apple fall just as you do but in addition I can feel the Spirit. In the end though it is arrogant of anyone, the believer of faith, the adherent to science, to claim their view is superior.

well yes evidence does make it superior where more than one person is concerned. One shouldn't push a pill down someones throat and say trust me it works with no evidence of it's healing effects and side effects .

Science is not a uniquely personal event. it needs evidence because it applies to all and needs to back itself up. You may love and science actually can find evidence of it - if alive chemistry changes , heart beat increases , a whole other host of bodily functions happen.But love is at the same time a uniquely personal experience. If you died the next day of course there is no proof you loved at all in any sense.

a feeling is not proof of God . your feeling the spirit may be nothing more than a flood of dopamine in the brain. or seratonine.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101041025/

No where did I say must one push a pill down someone's throat. It seems people are all to often ready to do that though even when it comes to things like Islamic nations with Sha'ria have to change and become democracies. But once again it does not matter if a feeling is not proof of God. What matters is just because an experience can be shared among among millions does not make it superior to one that can be shared only among one hundred. I understand your view though just do not agree with it and think that underneath it lies a grave danger to society. In the end religion and science could switch sides and the burning times could resume by those who are heretics of science. Either way I do not accept your view and can only say if you find fault in me for doing so you are no better than a preacher who says all who do not agree with me are wrong. It is that simple we must be tolerant and not intolerant and that begins within our deepest psyche.

Here is a link you might like:

http://www.godpart.com/

Sure we do. Where rights attach concerns whom we can injure, and in what way, because we disagree with him or her.


No, science has its ethics and morality, too. "Heretics" find they have a hard time getting funded. That's the worst scientists do to each other.

Interesting question. In which it is confusing me, because I don't think you understand my statement to Omnaka! I'm talking about the look of questioning to someone who says I definately will find if if I seek it, and it doesn't work. I don't know where you get the glaring look from, but that look is the questioning look to see what the one who says to seek and you'll get the answer and it doesn't happen. I understand Omnaka when he says about the experience he is having, so he'll know what I mean. I don't think you understand the situation.


Which not only shows you didn't understand what I was saying to Omnaka, but what you are saying backs up what I was saying to Omnaka! Exactly, in which I was questioning him, or telling him for that matter, just saying for someone to seek, doesn't cut it.
But then later, he does say it's in his telling of his experience. If you and he, both read my whole post, you'll notice that this is about people making statements about God telling and showing everyone, when I feel that is not true. I am questioning people who make statements, "God tells everybody, and shows them a choice" and I ask why don't people who grew up not going to church and owning and reading a bible get that, and I am example of that. Apparently, no one answers that correctly.
I'm just trying to point out, what I said in my earlier post.........
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Especially, when it includes everyone into that, when it can show it's not true.
Hello?!?!? That is what my last post was about!

...........god im out........

+1

lmao

I do not think in terms of superior, or better thans things ether work or they don't.... trying to erect fences between science and religion is reactionary and normative ...

clovis, the huge draw of religion is to make one feel special,superior to others for being on the 'right ' path..science has no such aspect.. it either is provable or it isn't...



we see what we want to see based on how we are filtering through the beleifs we hold.....


UM can be a great iopp/place to really challenge yourself and see how your beleifs hold up ...your faith never has to be compromised in the process...

why would you feel a need to defend your posit that is what you may want to ask yourself ????

As to the first at least partly yes. Religion or religious belief has been the cause of many diseases being cured. Lets suppose you put aside the posibility of physical divine intervention. Religion is a motivating force, a drive which has led many peolpe to work to save others. From nurses in third world countries to doctors and medical scientists, in both past and present times, many have been there working on individuals and on research because they are motivated basically by spiritual ethical purposes(yes lots are not of course but many always have been)

As to the second, a complete and resounding yes. Honestly just think about it. You are assuming that tangible means physical and i would actually argue that religion, particularly in its application, can make just as significant physical changes in a persons life as any scientific advance can.

But tangible actually means palpable, real and perceptible by the touch. Religion faith spirirtuality again is just as capable, by all those definitions, of influencing peoples lives for the better, as science is.

I know what you are trying to say, and i am a strong believer in the role of science. But science is value neutral (to be any use it has to be) Thus, even with the best science in the world, we need something else to determine how to apply that science in peoples lives and to evaluate its advantages and dangers.

To me as ive said before its all about balance and at present we are way out of balance, with too much weight on the physical/scientific side of life and not enough on the spiritual/moral side.

Personally, while i appreciate everything about modern technology, from heart transplants to the wow and the internet, i would give most of those scientific advances up, without hesitation to live in a society which truly represented a moral and ethical ideal. For me Christianity comes closest to representing such an ideal, but there are many other spiritual/ethical models which would work ok even if i did not feel as culturally comfortable in them...

It really is a mistaken philosophical belief to think that material belongings/ material things really have a single thing to do with happiness or the more positive elements of the human condition.

As one who has lost virtually every physical possession accumulated by two families over several generations, and yet still experienced the greatest joy i have ever known from that experience, I can personally attest to that truth.

Even physical illness, up to and including facing death can be faced with strength, joy and wonder, if a spiritual element exists in ones outlook on life.

I Know the doctors saved my life by giving me a successful triple by pass when i was 53 years old, but my faith took away any fear, ensured a quicker recovery, and maintained a happy and empowering experience through the whole time. In fact, once I had made peace with god I, knew i would survive, but the interesting thing was that it no longer mattered. I did not need to worry about anything, whichever way it went. I knew god would not only look after me but also my loved ones.

The physical empowerment this knowledge offers is just as great, if not more so, than the faith and confidence i had in my physicians(possibly more so as their definitive words of encouragement were "dont worry weve come a long way with this operation since the early days. We only lose about one in a hundred patients now.)

As that one possible patient, im afraid those words were not as comforting as those the angel of god brought to me,

'"Fear not for no harm will come to you, for i am watching over you"

As far as understanding what you and Omnaka were discussing I did but made a side point unrelated to that. It does not have to be adressed since I only interjected my comment as food for thought. Cheers.

MW there are hero's in every walk of life religious and otherwise, in fact it may be possible that its who we are naturally , how many strangers have saved a life just because its who they are????....

the marvels of science have undisputedly created an avenue for many of us to live lives that include practices and behaviors that create our hospital stays and surgeries in the first place , i just am astonsihed at how little most care for themselves and yet thier bodies keep on chugging til they can't then science steps in and saves them this is fact......the knowledge of how to help ourselves has been sound and applicable with science, it speaks for itself.... ...In fact one doesn't need a god or a religion to be fulfilled or to conclude that happiness is a state of being ..one is gonna make use of science in some way daily, ........

the greatest fear of religion is it will render its self extinct from lack of need so its understandable that one it would create a need and dependency otherwise what is the point, science has surpassed the limitations of the diety many look too for aid .... my mother had cancer and is a devote Catholic you would be hard pressed to find one more religious and yet she thanked her doctors and sceince and her great medical ins.for her recovery....... MW many live lives beyond dietys this is a very key point you can outgrow god.....you don't have to of course but you can....

.IMO the great concern theology has had is people will wake up to the fact that its a personal preference, for some religion is a loved one or the projected savior of what they themselves have done for themselves based onthe knowldge available now............IMO , its a preference based more on cultural conditioning and socialization than actual fact IMO.....

One can live life without religion and raise awesome kids get sick and be happy, be at peace etc.. etc ....IMO I think for practical purposes religion may be too limiting and generating some of the issues we have in the modern world.....perhaps its time to modernize our constructs and god ...

i do see that on a personal level one can make use of faith , but this can be done with trust for the NB and perhaps it can be used to find the value in situations this too is a tool used by most people its part of sophisticated thinking imo.....I am confident one will/and can get to these universal wisdoms regardless of a beleif commitment.....

That again is not the greatest fear of religion. Some within the religious community might have had this fear historically and even presently but that is because they view religion as a competitor to science and perhaps viewed religon as an enterprise.

This is what is called the Conflict thesis but modern views have discredited for the most.

The people who most strongly believe that science and faith have to compete or that one will dominate the other eventually do so because they themselves are caught up strongly in the debates. But their overall view is clouded because of it. Science and faith are not competitors in the overall scheme of things regardless if people wish to draw a line and take sides.









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis



It is thoughts like this that need to be discontinued and that are 'too limiting and generating issues we have in the modern world'. Perhaps the only people who need modernization are the ones caught in the flux of conflict instead of seeing the betterment of not only ourselves but of all of mankind if we pushed for consensus. One clearly is derived from a negative energy while the other is positive energy.

If one constantly carries this mindset then perhaps they are not truly at peace. They certainly not are with religion and that fact is very telling when it comes to them as individuals.

the basis of the "warfare/conflict thesis" was largely announced in the late 19th century and continues strong today the arguments that keep this mock conflict in tact are the arguments between creationsim and evolution they serve to reinforce this conflict it is often generated in relgious circles more often than not..... ...Sceince deals in facts and evidence thats ts essence... ...


I am aware that this conflict is rejected by most historians and academia.....this conflict served a political and social purpose at one point .....In fact this is one long rant against catholisism....

In essence there is no war between religion and sceince...those with a vested interest in christianity keep it alive ...... you can have relgion and utilize science.....


great post Clovis.....

Thank you. As are all your posts as well. Especially in that they are firmly grounded within a scientific based perspective. The culture wars unfortunately will continue but for me it is rather liberating to be able to transcend them to a degree. Not that I never get caught within them or have an opinion that leans to one side or another but overall I do firmly believe more can be achieved through consensus rather than through conflict. They are two pillars of society and removing one might topple society though I am aware that some would so be willing to do just that, on both sides of the debate, and have a strong belief that if one of those pillars is removed that all would work out fine in the end. I am not quite certain of that and I hope I do not have to find out. Living in a total theocracy is just as intimidating to me as it would be to live in a total sterile environment free from religion. To me that is just swinging the pendulum one way instead of the other. People though in all matters attempt to manipulate the balance but in the end balance will return somehow.

You comment as food for thought, is confusing!!!
Let me get this straight. You commented on a post of mine to Omnaka, but it's actually a response to a post I made a couple of pages back and I think in another thread?
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as opposed to:



Ok, you took my post and quote:

and answered to it, but what you really did was answered to a post to Omnaka?!?!?

WHAT THE?!?!?

Ok, if I piece it together for you....




ok, I see where you are answering and responded to........humnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!

I'm talking about, and I do believe this is from another thread, forcing one religion at a ceremony for people of all belief systems. I had a right to glare and be offended, because they have no right to start a ceremony with a belief system that is trying to get everyone involve. I wan't trying to find anything, I was trying to explain about the situation of finding something to Omnaka in this thread!!!

Your question does not make sense!! I don't think I understand your point, and there is no way it is going to be food for thought. Too bad, it got regurgitated!

Well on a completely different point your negative energy (dare I say hatred?) towards the group who simply wanted to pray to God (most likely with the purest of intentions and good will) are a bit unnecessary. As far as my post, since it seemingly offended you so much, it is well that you rejected it.

im sorry but there is still no proof god is real

This prayer was done in a public area with many individuals of different affiliations. I glared to show, I wasn't praying, because it wasn't my religion. I wasn't angry at them for what they were doing, but expecting everyone in the room to do what they are doing. Don't you get it?? The purest intention and good will would also have a Jewish prayer, a Mulim prayer, a Wiccan prayer, and greeting for the Atheist, and so forth, and so on! I was not angry at them for being their religion, I was angry at them pushing it at the rest of us.

And that was not my negative energy, but very flustered confused energy at you switching responses to different posts, from different threads. Couldn't you tell I was confused at your last few posts??!?!

If you don't understand, go back and read my posts again, and maybe you will. I don't think I understand you very well.

You are getting things wrong, from what I see.

you don't get it ............ God has no proof . none. it doesn't matter what you feel since that is not proof of God. It doesn't matter if a million people feel it or one. feelings are still not proof of God , no matter how much you try to think it is. the belief in God , like meditation , could release chemicals in the brain that makes one feel good so you repeat that action and are thusly rewarded chemically. Like falling in Love at first is really just chemicals. they fade ............. (but that's when the work for real love begins. ) chocolate , lots of it , produces the same.

in that sense , because science has proof in it's endeavors , it is superior in so much as it does have evidence , proof.

the whole pill analogy went over your head. I was speaking of real medicine and how we don't dispense it ( or try not to ) without proof it works. where you come off with Islamic nations is beyond me. maybe a bit more of your prejudice along with your catholic one.

let's pretend creationism ( ID ) were in a race with evolution... guess which one would be ahead with proof ??? evolution of course while ID hasn't gotten off the starting line. that is superiority.

with your hatred of catholics , the vatican , the pope and seeming nations of Islam .... it's a wonder you know God at all.

Saying the Vatican intentionally kept their pagan base of rules and just added a Christian facade to intentionally fool people is not hatred. I have always thought that the individuals within Catholicism and Islam are attempting to connect to God in their own way. Catholicism is not really an issue people bring up as much as Islam but usually when people slam Islam or Sha'ria I am the first to offer an opinion of we should not be so rash to judge other people's cultures and have them change their laws to live like us. Some of my closest friends in life have been Catholics anyways and I have made good enough friends with a few Muslims from Sudan.

Rather it is a wonder you even attempt to act like you know me.

The only negative energy I referred too was the first two things in bold within this post. As far as your confusion not sure why the normal flow of a thread would throw you off kilter for topics can change quickly and points can be added that are only indirectly related to an OP or any other subsequent post. As I said before though since you did not agree with my single point or seemingly not understand it, in either case I am glad you did not take it to heart.

Did you not refer to this in the thread it was said? Why this one? I mean, that is beyond me? And about that Clovis, the anger was toward people. Thank you, Lt. Ripley, thank you, for understanding. Clovis, I have said here so may time, I'm not Atheist, and I am a strong believe in everyone able to follow their beliefs. In their own privacy and their own path. Dragging in others into your belief, or expecting others to follow the behavior of your belief, that gets me upset, and understandingly so. This was a public promotion ceremony, in a place where sometimes the spouses have to go. I went to support my husband. He's not organized Christian, and I definatley am not. In that room, where the last promotion ceremony I went to support my husband, there wasn't such a thing, the lead speaker, I believe a high ranking officer, told everyone to pray! Come on Clovis, it's like keeping you in a room, and I told you and expected you to behave in a religion I have, and you wouldn't do it, if you didn't believe it. If you glared at me, because of what I expected you to do, then by your logic, you are negatively angry and didn't do what I want you to do in the name of my religion. Would you follow my clovis, would you?
I should not be expected to follow a certain religious behavior in a public area. It's my right.
Now, if they suddenly followed a Jewish prayer, then went into Muslim one, and a Wiccan one and others, well one, we never get to the crutz of the ceremony, and I probably would say, 'hey, don't forget the Atheist and on that note, I have a piece of paper here from my beliefs for you to follow!'
How about this clovis, since you think I had no right to stand up for my right to not be forced into the behavior of someones else's belief system, I want you to follow my belief right now! I mean it. Yes, this is a public forum, so was the promotion ceremony. Come on, I mean good intentions, so you should be forced to follow my belief, and I want you to get on your knees, and say out loud here, how you know you came from a puddle of goo, and that you love, out loud now, that you love the oh mighty goddess, and the oh might god, of Stuart SMalley's parents. I mean it, get down on your knees and do it. Go ahead!


Uh, I understand the topic of the thread getting thrown off, but then again that is not suppose to happen. Two, are you saying it can get thrown off to a point, that you post a quote from me, from a different thread, without saying you did. THen you tag it in a repsonse to a quote I said in this thread to another poster, (who probably never had a chance to respond now, thank you very much) and expect me to know what you mean?

I don't know clovis, maybe it's me, but was I suppose to know what you mean? I was still trying to understand of that particular post, and couldn't understand it. It was not until I pieced it together (for you) that I understood it. I should have just went and told you, that I have no idea what you are talking about. Please, do me a favor, Clovis, and go over that particular post of yours to me, and see if you can understand what it meant? Seriously, go over it, because I don't think you have any idea how confused you made me, by setting up the way you did in hope in conveying these particular points you made.

It still stands, that I had every right to not participate and be very angry and frustrated iabout not being forced to behavior in not my own religion in a public room.




Again, thank you so much for understanding. Exactly, this is what I am talking about! My point exactly.

The whole part about Stuart SMalley's parents brought much mirth so thank you for that. As far as the statement above I would not feel negative about it but simply close my eyes and pray to my God, reflect on my faith, and if I was an atheist I would have just had a moment of quiet reflection. It is about honor and respect towards the group I was among. I have been among Catholics when they are repeating certain phrases to Mary while using a rosary to keep track of the numbers of times they did so and it was nothing negative.

thats not what a rosary is each bead stands for something the steps of there lord, the pain of his mother, a prayer, a family member. its not a counting tool

Well, you're welcome, but did you get my point?

I can honor each faith like the next person, but maybe you haven't experienced such negatively from a group for not participating.
I have, and this anger comes from a fear, that I would be subjected, in a room full of people, to their hatred for not participating. {If I had not glared and showed my defiance}
It's happen, clovis, over and over again. You cannot fathom that, because you're Christian. I do not think, that you can relate to an Atheist, because it seems to me, you cannot know the kind of behavior they have to put with, or know about their thoughts, because you have Christian thoughts.

I also would still like you to go over the posts in question. The one of yours to mine, that quoted me from another thread, and your response to that, tagged at the end of another post of mine to someone else in this thread. Since you made a big deal of my behavior, you need to understand mine in response to the post in question. Until then, I have a certain outlook toward you, that I will not waver.



In which, everyone should have. It goes both ways. Plus, those who conducted that meeting, have the responsiblity to keep it neutral and to the point of the ceremony and meeting itself. If I walked into a group of Catholics, in an open area, I would be like, 'oh excuse me' and walk away to allow them to pray. Being stuck in a room, forced to pray in a Catholic way, when I cannot from the bottom of my heart, (that's an example), that is another thing. You like to be stuck in a room, where you have to be expected in, and then forced to recite Atheist's lingo??
Why must I have to go into detail the sitaution, to get you to fully understand?!?!

It was a simple unrelated point: One might not be open to God if they felt the way you did at that meeting.

Hopefully you still were inquiring about the point I attempted to put across since you edited it out of your post. As far as being 'stuck' in a room where atheist were canting their lingo (do they even have any?) I would quietly reflect on God in respect of them. It is doubtful in the setting you described that anyone was being forced to vocally 'pray to God' and most likely people were being silent praying themselves or just daydreaming or anything in the middle.

they arnt mindless zombies ya know

It took me a few minutes to actually understand what you meant. Then I couldn't even believe it.

clovis, this is what I am getting from you. You don't understand my point. I was hoping for you go over that post in question, you made to me. How in the world, was I suppose to understand what you are saying, for how it was set up?

I talked about being open to God, to Omnaka, in this thread. In the thread, in the quote you responded to in this thread, I was talking about my rights. Curious, did you think I was talking about being open to God, in a public promotion ceremony? If you think so, then you are wrong. In fact, I'm curious in where you got that I was talking about being open to God, in that thread?! I was talking about being open to God in this thread, not that one. Yet, you quoted me from that one, and responded it here in this one.

Go over the that particular post to me, in this thread.

Until then, you will still come across to me, as very very confusing.

Actually, I shouldn't, because of the confusing way you set it up. I think, it's a miracle that I understood it.
You can't, that is how it was set up. Not everyone bows their head and do something like that. We all were being force to recite it! If one didn't do it, without my response, there was going to be a negative response to that. If you did what you did, at an Atheist ceremony, more than likely, you would be ostracized. This is where, I wonder how you would feel?

What makes you think, it's not doubtful? Well, it isn't doubtful, and that is what happen. Can you please understand that!

All I am in control of is accepting others. I cannot control if they accept me. I would respect them in that situation and leave if they did not want me there.

I also still seriously doubt everyone was being forced to recite something vocally at a military awards ceremony was it? If that is the actual cause you have cause for a lawsuit.

If your in a catholic setting you should very well hear and see catholic things .

this setting she was in WAS NOT RELIGIOUS IN NATURE. nor should it have been . and to automatically assume all that were there is disrespectful. Your attempt of trying to justify or rather change her behavior or reaction to it , you should make more christians aware that in public settings - THEY ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE WORLD .

what if at this ceremony instead of christanity , a person of muslim religious beliefs , decided that all should bow their heads while he/she said a prayer aloud to Allah ?

how would that make you feel?

Seeing that Allah is in a sense the same as God even though we worship Him differently I would bow down and pray to God using my own thoughts.

I am in accepting in others as well. You cannot seem to accept, this is not about me accepting them, but them refusing to accept me or anyone else, than this particular religion being done in a secular environment.

clovis, my point was, I was suppose to be there, and others were. It's like we're captive in a sense. I couldn't leave.


Well, it happened. Yes, it was a military awards ceremony, and everyone in the room was forced to recite one particular religion's verse.
I do believe, he's got it!!!!
Now, do you think I would have gotten anywhere?? This is what I was explaining about, in the other thread!!!

Seriously, clovis, why bring up that point, from that thread, in this one? I really would like to know.
It just seems to me, you totally pushed in front of poor Omnaka, and kept him from responding from my posts to him. You know, the posts to him, that meant something totally different from what you pointed out.


Would you recite it out loud? This ceremony had the whole room recite out loud. If you did, more than likely, would be stopped.





*bows down to worship thy Lt. Ripley!!!*
Thank you, exactly what I mean! Thank you!!!