http://www.discovery.org/a/137

Clovis, i looked at and read one of your sources..did you read this yourself????

Its basically resurrecting william paleys argument ...this is not sceince its an opinion....

again ID is a faith based claim and in that context serves the vested interest of christianity...

beyond that it holds no weight....

the christian fundi right which contains baptists , lutherans , protestants ect ........ sure are trying to get their political ideas into law now .............. you are rampantly anti catholic yet blind to other sects of christianity doing and wanting the same.

so what else you got in the way of prejudice aside from the christanity of catholics ?

Courts don't define science. Science disproves creationism, and the court makes a decision on the actions to be taken.

Surely you know more about law than you pretend to?

God bless the First Amendment.

Science is defined by the Scientific method. Intelligent Design totally fails at that definition. It is a religious belief. Why is that so difficult to understand?

So most agree here that Ben Stein is nuts? He is doing a full hour interview on the Glenn Beck show this Friday at 7 & 9 p.m on CNN's headline news. He was on for a little while last night and noted that he would be ripped apart for this movie and he is getting ripped for the most part. I will say that Stein is a very smart cookie but that does not mean that he has not gotten a little crazy with this one.

It is not difficult to understand that for now as most understand it it is not a scientific theory. Still it has potential and should just not be dismissed solely on political opposition. Politics of the nation or even politics within the scientific community. Regardless too many scientist believe in God so the question of Intelligent Design will not be dismissed regardless of the wishes of anyone especially those who wish to disprove God with science when science can never disprove God.

Below is an article about the director of the Human Genome Project. It offers insight into the forecast that cooler heads will prevail.



http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.c...tary/index.html

That article is correct. You can believe in God and Evolution. I do. The ENTIRE Catholic Church does, and many many more people do as well. However, Clovis, the problem with ID/Creationism is that they are not scientific theories. Intelligent Design does not belong in a science classroom, rather, it belongs in a PHILOSOPHY class room. Theres no way to prove or disprove an intelligent designer using the scientific method. It would be pointless to put it into a science classroom when, in all seriousness, it should be in a philosophy class. In the same sense, creationism belongs in a religion class room.

Evolution is science
Creationism is a religious doctrine, but not science.
Intelligent Design is a philosophical concept, but not science.
You put scientific theories in a science class, religious doctrines in a religion class, and philosophical concepts in a philosophy class. Why is that so hard to grasp?

[quote name='Clovis' date='Apr 29 2008, 05:35 PM' post='2272262']
It is not difficult to understand that for now as most understand it it is not a scientific theory.





Nor will it ever be ,it is a religious belief nothing more



fullywired

By intelligent design you mean that God worked through evolution. This is completely different than Intelligent Design proposed by creationists. They say that all the different life forms on Earth just sprang up and are unrelated.

So no, ID will never become a scientific theory.

Unless you happen to have God's fingerprint on file, it never will be.

The problem is that it has absolutely no potential, and it is being dismissed solely because it doesn't have a single scrap of evidence to support it.

What are you talking about? Intelligent design has been dismissed already. It has been chewn up and spat out.

And science makes no comment on god. The religious are just threatened by science because it disproves what their "holy" books. That is the only reason that creationism even exists these days.

Is Francis Collins' religiosity supposed to disprove evolution?

Creationism isn't a philosophical concept, it is a disproven scientific hypothesis.

Then you might not acquainted with all the facets of Intelligent Design such as irreducible complexity, specified complexity, and a fine-tuned universe.



Well with all the crimes some say God has committed it might be likely that someone has them on file (~_^)

Trust me. We are. The act of giving a name to an unscientific school of thought does not render it scientific.

Actually,yes,i would feel comfortable with that.It would extend the students knowledge about other cultures,and it would be interesting to see what the witchdoctors do.I mean,if they've been using those 'improper' methods for thousands of years there's gotta be something to them

ID isn't a religious scheme to convert everybody.Yes,many if not most religions are based off the same concept,but they can be separate.There are plenty of scientists who support ID who aren't religious.Also i don't see why ID isn't scientific.No,it's not 'popular' and no it doesn't fit what all the 'big science organizations' think,but that doesn't mean it's not a scientific theory.If science has become 'what the cool kids say',then shame on us.

P.S.Lol euthanasia you didn't even come with us

None of them have any scientific merit. Briefly:
- Irreducible complexity has been proven not to exist
- Specified complexity assumes that there is no natural process by which complexity is formed (these processes exist)
- Fine tuning is a simplistic logical fallacy which states that "if things were different, things would be different"

I doubt you would actually be comfortable with it. Thanks to advancements in science, our life expectancy has risen from 25 to 70.

And why would you go to school if you don't actually learn anything?

So what? It is still wrong.

That's not true.

It isn't scientific because it doesn't follow the scientific method.

I pointed out what I did not to claim it was scientific but to disprove this statement below. ID is not strictly a belief that life just sprang up and is unrelated as they claimed.

The problem is that that is exactly what creationists say.

Evolution- Complexity that has evolved from simple beginnings over time by gradual change.

ID- Complexity appeared abruptly.

Not all ID proponents believe that to be true. Some believe in theistic evolution which is a view that accepts evolution as scientific fact.

I don't see why schools can't just teach BOTH ID(creation) and Evolution... <--then let the kids decide....after all I did...

Kids after all deserve credit to be able to make up their own minds

A lot of us know the facts on evolution...but that is because WE GOT TO DECIDE for ourselves!!

Teach a known lie in shcools? Teach them on the same level as if they were equal? Never.

To you it is a lie but to others I feel they hold that right to make up their minds what is a lie....after all you got to do it..so why not let the kids do the same and decide for themselves what is a lie???

I dont believe in the bible...but was once raised catholic..so now I am raising my girl christian...only so she gets to view what it is like herself and let her decide...after all the only real way to be able to make up your mind what is a lie and what isnt..is to LEARN 1st..then decide!!...

It is silly to call something a lie when you don't know a single thing about it....

Those are two terribly different concepts and someone who believes in Theistic Evolution believes something very different than the ID proponents. The real ID proponents believe life sprang up.

As i've heard Wombat say, truth isn't a democracy. ID is a lie. There is no debate. There is no contraversy. To teach this in schools would be a ludicrous disgrace.



ID has been absolutely anihilated by the scientific community. They just continue to drag on in desperation thinking that maybe people won't notice; and many have not.

It doesn't matter what the subsections of creationism are, because there isn't any evidence to support any of them.

I meant that you could philosophically argue for intelligent design, but in no way shape or form could you ever use the scientific method to show that there is an "intelligent designer".
Of course the ID that im referring to is entirely different than the one that creationists are now positing as the "new awesome and true" scientific theory. ID as it is now is just creationism in disguise. Which CLEARLY does not belong in a science class.

Or so the opponents of ID would have everyone believe...

Only in your opinion...I myself dont agree with the ID...but I made my OWN mind up what I feel is wrong

you got to make up your mind..it is selfish and wrong of anyone to dictate or force beliefs on to others...

I know its a lie...only because I had the chance to learn it just like that bible..was taught it and I see it all a lie...

It would be like me going over to the USA and bantering on how the democrats are lairs....<--when I havent a clue on what they stand for....

No. There is no justification for teaching lies in school. Truth is not a democracy, you don't decide what is true and what is not. That is the reason why we don't teach 1+1=3 in school. That is why we don't teach astrology after astronomy, alchemy after chemistry.

Are you unable to distinguish between the creationists in disguise and people who believe that evolution is God's way?

Evolution hold facts...right?..I attended St Marys JHS as a kid ...was taught creaton AND evolution in the SAME Catholic school.......after leaving myself along with several class mates favoured evolution

WHY?? because we were given a CHOICE and it was an all girl catholic school that gave us the choice

That's catholic school and it was taught in Religion. To teach ID or creationism in public school would be absolute insanity. If we taught ID I guess then we would have to teach Astrology as well. We would also have to teach Alchemy and the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory. We would have to teach every lie if taught just one.

You shouldn't have to choose between a lie and the truth. You should be taught facts, or else we might lose them in the lies.

It isn't a matter of opinion, it is a matter of truth. Creationism is falsifiable and has a definite truth value which can be measured.

That's no argument for the teaching of creationism in school. Where do you draw the line? Why not teach that 1+1=3 and let the students decide? Don't be absurd.

So why teach it?

No, it's nothing like that. We know exactly what creationism is, and we know exactly how false it is.

So you essentially wasted your time learning a lie (which of course some people will believe). Why would you suggest that as the standard for education?

Why call it wasting time??

How would I KNOW it was a lie..unless I learnt anything about it in the 1st place???
you arent making sense here..sorry...but you arent...

I call the bible cobblers...only because I have read it and was taught it..enough for me to make that decision....it would be stupid to say - the bible is false when I know nothing aobut it

how come you arent getting this??

Answer me this...How do you suppose you know it is all a lie?? and how do you suppose you understand that evolution is fact?? shot in the dark here but you obviously have learnt SOMETHING about both, in order to KNOW what is fact and what isnt??
If you havent bothered to learn...then you are just riding on the backs of those who DO know what they are talking about

You can't be serious.

If we did this for Evolution, in order to be fair, Astrology must be taught along side Astronomy, and Alchemy along side Chemistry. Do you not undertsand this?

Not to mention there is just not enough time in the day to teach all the lies along with the facts. The school day would have to be much longer or people would spend less time learning TRUTH.

And how do you suppose one can make that decision for themselves?? how?...

Kid 1 - Evolution is fact I know it...creation is nothing but lies

Kid 2 - How do you know this? where you taught creation?

Kid 1 - No..but I was taught evolution

Kid 2 - So then, how would you know creation is lies ?

Kid 1 - ummm I just do, my dad said so so ner ner

Kid 2 - so you have no idea on what the bible says?

Kid 1 - Nope, but its all lies




IMO kid 1 has mde himself look stupid..he calls it lies yet cant put up any defence

Because it was a waste of time, obviously.

The same way you know that anything else is a lie. If you have a yellow car and someone tells you your car is green, you know he is lying.

Well explain how I'm not, then.

As an analogy, if you know that things fall downwards, why would you need to study "alternate" ideas that things fall sideways?

I'm wondering the same about you, obviously.

By learning the truth.

No. If you want to prove that 1+1=2, do you have to systematically go through disproving that:
1+1=3
1+1=4
1+1=5
1+1=6
...ad infinitum?

Of course not.

Obviously, the kids are taught the mechanics of evolution. They understand how it works, and how and why ideas such as creationism don't fit into the explanation.

If someone asked you ----> Why is creation a lie..give EXAMPLES as to WHY it is a lie? <-------------------can you do this if you wernt taught a single thing..and you never learnt anything??

How can you hold down a debate with Evo V's Creation if you havent the foggiest idea what one of the subjects is about?? please explain how this is possible??

and please spare he ohh but we have facts...I KNOW this..but I am asking you how would you be able to debate it if you never knew anything about it...

Kid 1- Chemistry is fact I know it.....alchemy is nothing but lies.

Kid 2- How do you know this? Were you taught alchemy?

Kid 1- No..but I was taught chemistry.

Kid 2-So then, how would you know alchemy is a lie?

Kid 1- Umm I just do, my dad said so ner ner.

Kid 2- So you have no idea what the Alchemy Manual says?

Kid 1- Nope, but its all lies.

OK. The ironic thing is, Expelled gives ABSOLUTELY NO evidence against Evolution, and no real evidence for ID.
We teach SCIENCE in schools. ID is NOT, NOT Science. The only argument I've EVER heard for it is that 'things are too complex lol!', which has been explained and debunked over and over again.
The thing is:
THERE IS NO ARGUMENT!
Evolution is a FACT. If you want to believe the random events that change a population are controlled, FINE. It is impossible to tell if a random probability is 'influenced by god'.
NOT that Evolution is 'random'. However, the probability of getting a beneficial mutation is random.


Please explain what you what us to argue. Be more specific.


WMAP is a new NASA tech. thing that(among other things) accurately measures the age of the universe to be about 13.7 billion years old.


Again- Ask and I will defend.
I'm curious- I haven't actually seen an argument for ID before, simply a 'LOL HEAR BOTH Sides of the STORY!!!'.
Right now, I've never heard a good argument for the ID side of the story BESIDES that.


I don't. Why don't we just teach the Flying Spaghetti Monster's Intelligent Falling Theory alongside Einstein's gravity theories?
DO NOT say 'lol there is a difference!!!'. Evolution has the SAME scientific standing as Gravity does.


Completely Wrong.
Micheal Moore is a hell of a lot better then Creationist Propaganda.


Bravo, bravo!
I'll say it too:

THERE IS NO DEBATE!

Hope that settles everything.

Cheers,
SQLserver

You are saying that you have to know what you are disproving. Whilst that is absolutely correct, it doesn't mean that the kids should be taught lies.

The kids should be taught how things really work, and why they work the way they do. That way, when they are confronted by such ideas, they will be able to point out what is wrong with them and why.

THEN TEACH OBJECTIVE CREATIONISM IN GOVERNMENT CLASS, HISTORY CLASS, OR THEOLOGY!
DO NOT teach it in SCIENCE class!

The only way they are ever going to seriously know this is IF they are taught anything about creation....if they arent taught anything..then its pointless trying to debate it etc

Here is another idea..a class that teaches evolution and COMPARES it to creation..<--to me that makes sense...at least that way, the pupil will hold a better understanding

I never said teach it in a science class...but what if you did USE the subject of Creation IN SCIENCE to make comparisons...

Seriously, stop posting for a few minutes and think.

But there is a sure way to do this...in scienc while teaching evolution (as it is important)...use comparasions of creation..showing the pupil BOTH sides but at the same time, explaining how evolution has a lot more to offer...make them aware of it..and chances are, they will leave supporting evolution and at least will be able to debate it

EDIT IE teacher explaining evoltion - this is what creation of the bible tells you..and HERE is what EVOLUTION tells you..the facts <---sounds easy enough to me