Well get ready to be stunned again.Creationist believe god created everything .ID creationists believe God created everything .I think there is a startling similarity in those two beliefs don't you ?


fullywired

Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection".[1][2] It is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.[3] Its primary proponents, all of whom are associated with the Discovery Institute,[4][5] believe the designer to be the God of Christianity.[6][7] Advocates of intelligent design claim it is a scientific theory,[8] and seek to fundamentally redefine science to accept supernatural explanations.[9]
Intelligent design


Creationism is a religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity (often the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam) or deities, whose existence is presupposed.[1] In relation to the creation-evolution controversy the term creationism (or strict creationism) is commonly used to refer to religiously-motivated rejection of evolution.
Creationism


Same MYTH....just a different twist.

I still see a huge difference between ID and creation. ID (at least what I consider ID) does not mean the same as *poof* someone conjured up humans in their current form and placed them on the current earth we now inhabit. ID is almost like "the Force" in Star Wars. It leave a lot to interpretation, it leaves life on other planets open, evolution open, it leaves the fossil record intact, it does not contradict any science in any way. It simply states that the believer thinks that some intelligence or consciousness created a "spark", and it became what we have today. It does not even imply (at least not to my way of thinking) that there was an intentional push in any direction. In other words, a gazillion years ago this consciousness didn't say, "I'm going to create Man, and I'm going to do it by creating this initial spark. Be back in a gazillion years to see how it came out." What it does imply (to my way of thinking at least) is that something started that spark, and this is the result.

I must stress, after reading the Wedge document info, I can see how ID is being used by the religious right. It's a shame there has to be all this subterfuge, isn't it?

Suffice it to say, that my personal views on ID would NOT do any creationist any good at all. It would not bolster their argument for God, Allah, the Bible, or anything dogmatic or even morality for that matter. But that's just me.

Fundamentalism the relgious movement is driven by its fear of inferring that one doesn't need god to live a fulfilled life or to explain life, for very good reason it would render religion extinct this is what happens when one outgrows the god construct...Relgion enjoys quite a bit of perks (monentary) as any business it seeks to stay in business and generating a need/dependency through the use of fear or reward ( heaven, etc etc) is how a lifetime of allegiance is accomplished......IMO the reason they dispute science is they feel science is their greatest competitor......yet many religions blend both god and sceince.....We will see more of this as we 'evolve"

Finally, a religious person who actually addresses the Wedge Strategy. I'm glad you did. Perhaps then you can understand the worry that many non-Christians have with the ID debate. When there are people out there who are maliciously trying to force everyone to conform to their religious preferences, you're damned right that I'm going to be against it. I don't believe that anyone has to believe what anyone else believes, but when its a matter of where to put things in an educational system, particularly in the failed system that are American Public Schools, this is something I MUST stand up against.

One would not teach mathematics in an English course, nor would one teach philosophy in an accounting class. In the same sense, because Intelligent Design does not follow the scientific method it does not belong in a science class. As unfortunate as this may seem for the faithful, God is not a scientifically observable thing, and as such, science can say nothing on the matter. Therefore, it would be incredibly unwise to teach God in a science class. Its just not right, in the same sense that I would not stand on a pulpit at a church and prattle on about evolutionary theory.

It only fuels the fires of my fears that no matter how many times I seem to tell you that as ID is not a scientifically verifiable theory, or a scientific theory for that matter, proponents of the theory still seem to insist that ID does belong in a science classroom. But it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't. There is no valid or acceptable reason to include ID in a science curriculum. Its just not science. Philosophy I understand, and religion most definitely. But a science class? Honestly, you have got to be pulling my leg. It only makes me think more and more that this Wedge Strategy is not an isolated incident. I know that Christians want to be included too. But it just doesn't work that way. Sorry.

On a more positive note, 1000 posts!

Actually, I would not classify myself as a religious person. Sorry. At most, I would say I am tolerant of others beliefs, be they religious (even fundamentalists) or radically secular. I said it before, and I'll say it again: "Be excellent to each other", from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure sums it up perfectly.
I didn't need the Wedge Strategy to show me the failings of the church, but it is a great indicator of the desperate measures fundamentalism will go to in order to push their agenda. Just keep in mind, this slice of Christian fundamentalism is just that: A small slice of the "fundie pie" you find in all religions all over the world.

I would have to disagree. I have a fundamentalist approach to the Bible but I could care less in how many people believe or not. That would make it a numbers game. Science is not a competitor to faith even if some religions in the past would have made it seem so. I do not dispute science and neither do many of the people I have come across that are religious. It is also atrocious that you imply that somehow those who believe in religion are not evolved. Not sure if that is what you meant but that is what came across: that on the one hand you state some can fear their life is incomplete without God but then you turn around and imply without science one is not evolved. That mentality is one of conflict and archaic, that we have to take sides just because you have, but no some of us have mentalities that foster consensus and we will not take sides since both science and faith in combination work pretty dang good for us. It is not us that is missing something since we cherish in both.

Wise words.

As far as the wedge strategy it is just politics. As a believer I refuse to be defined by politics. The wedge strategy is weak.

I've heard people on this thread use the term "fundies." I assume that is a derrogatory term for a fundamentalist Christian. I know that other fundamentalists have been referred to as well, like Muslims. Can you please explain what you mean by fundie? Thank you.

Forgive me, I assumed you were. But thats what an assumption is: It makes an a** out of you and me.

As for the bold, Clovis, I concur. As dopey and goofy as Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure is, I totally agree. "Be excellent to one another" sounds suspiciously like the golden rule... no?
Thank you eggumby for recognizing the horror that I feel the Wedge document was trying to perpetrate. Honestly, sometimes I don't give you people enough credit, I really don't.
High fiiive.

By "you people" were you lumping me in with Christians again!!??


When I use the phrase fundie, (which I shouldn't really, it is a generalization after all) I really mean someone that refutes science at every turn with biblical or church teachings. I'm talking to the point that people refuse medical treatment because it's "Gods will" that little Johnny has a ruptured appendix and dies, or will spend all of their time and money on "the church" while their personal life falls apart around them.
Keep in mind, these true "fundies" are usually amazingly hypocritical too. That's what I mean when I say fundie. And yes, I do know it's a broad generalization, and it's not meant to offend (at least by me).