Great post Tom.

Edited to say thanks to Matt for the articles. I read them after I posted. I didn't realize Tom's post had been gleaned from Matt's sources, lol.

It sounds like you more or less have a point of contention with religion because your experience was 'fake' so it is understandable that you would attempt to disprove it and claim other people's real experiences are just imaginary. Though I do not necessarily agree that is the only way to approach that.

If someone has any internal conflicts over religion (many have negative qualities) hopefully they can resolve them but attempting to disprove faith and spirituality (not the same as organized religion) might be fruitless in that effort. There is a difference between a positive skeptic who doubts and holds an incredulous view vs the negative skeptic who makes it a mission to disprove something.

As far as the two scriptures you pointed out one was direction for a specific prophet for a certain time in the world. Anyone pointing out someone's wickedness today and using that as the basis clearly missed the point. The second does not mean go into people's faces and preach or tell them they are wrong. Setting up a place of worship though and if someone comes to learn is the way to go about it. The words for 'preach' and 'gospel' in the Greek are 'kerusso' and 'euaggelion'. The first means 'herald' and the second means 'good tidings'. Go to the world as a herald of good tidings does not sound nothing like the way some churches evangelize I will admit but then I think they have it all wrong but it is not for me to tell them that. Herald to me sounds more like one who speaks in a court or in this case a place of worship. Religious missions set up within areas serve this purpose. Urban and foreign missions come to mind but a place of worship can be set up anywhere.

So I would not pick and choose from the Word but consider it all especially the applicable parts...instructions to Old Testament prophets are not applicable.



Does not sound like harassing complete strangers here or even family members or telling anyone things do not want to hear. Sounds like he had a place already to go to with people willing to listen.



Nope nothing about harassing people here either...

Since that seems to be one of your issues, if you witnessed other people doing such harassing or if they did that to you, rest assured they were not being biblical.

I dont mind you taking exception to the word physically, but for crying out loud, thats precisely the point im trying to make. It is almost beyond my comprehension that people fail to understand what im talking about.

God physically manifests, not in my mind, not in hallucinations. He alters the physical state of reality, he performs physical miracles. Are modern people so disbelieving that they dont get that idea. These physical manifestations have always occured and have been recorded in all cultures including our own. It is only modern culture which does not recognise either the miracles or their cause. In my case god made it patently obvious by first stating what he would do then doing it.

Physical , yes as involving the manipulation of physical objects in the real world Physical yes asinvolving the manipulation of matter and energy.

I dont mind if you disbelieve me as long as i can get through what im talking about, and thus why i am forced to the logical conclusions i make.

Mr. Walker, I just gotta tell ya! I think your name oozes RESPECTABILITY! My compliments to you!

There is no point of contention. I simply asked you some questions, you simply did not answer them. BTW, I believe every individuals experiences are real---> to them.



So...which category do I fall under according to your psychoanalysis? I believe I was debating fairly, without being disrespectful. By the tone of this post, it seems apparent that my comments have offended you. If this is the case Clovis, please accept my apologies.


Cheers,

~V

I mentioned nothing about harassing strangers or family members. I simply stated:

I would also very much like to hear your answer to Inner Space's questions, Clovis, particularly this one:


I don't read any bitterness in IS's posts regarding her experiences, but I do sense defensiveness in yours.

I could be wrong, of course, and my appologies if I am.

Hello DH. I did not see any bitterness in IS's post either. Once someone is only focused on disproving spirituality as all imaginary though many usually then move forward to say that science somehow trumps a whole world of believers which in then turns to a conflict view of science and faith which hurts the world more than a consensus view would.

Once someone starts throwing around scripture out of context to somehow prove the Bible is negative then it becomes more clear they have other intentions and that is usually the best time to simply say that is not at all what it says and move on.

As far as the question I base my experiences as being real on more than just a personal spiritual experience but in the way God and spirits physically works in the world. When empty gas tanks get a full up with two dollars after praying to God to be carried another week, when people break destructive habits like fifteen year hard core drug usage after one night after praying to God when nothing worked before, when mothers and fathers say I had feeling to pray to God about you right at the moment of a violent physical attack on their child they had no way of knowing about, when weapons formed against you fail and a gun that was poised to fire jams, when a whole church several times can be in full praise and all simultaneously quiet down at the same exact moment and within a five seconds after someone speaks loud and clear in a voice that is of power and simply says pray more and have more faith, when closed solid doors open for no reason when there is no one in front or behind to pull or push them then I have enough physical proof for myself to know not only God but spirits can affect the physical and the examples of others are many.

All but one of the things above happened to me personally and I have seen many other things and have not been the only one to see them at the same time. Science cannot even begin to explain many things but it can theorize. The gun jamming might have just been simple chance as well. Many people have miracles and tell those closest to them about it, they are not bragging, they are not attempting to swindle anyone, they are not attempting to convert anyone, they are simply sharing the physical things they have witnessed and in many cases others around them saw the same exact things.

That is why when someone who claims they are using science to disprove spirituality and the way it can manifest in the physical I simply have to say science cannot disprove spirituality in every instance of it and no one should attempt to use it to say for fact every experience is merely people imagining things. It is fine to theorize and interesting to do so when one says maybe religion is a figment of human imagination but to continue and say this is fact and you are wrong if you disagree then they are no better than a terrible preacher who will say the same thing. Science I do not think intends to do that but people who make it their mission to disprove spirituality do. Not all spirituality is God based either. I hope my answer was satisfactory for you DH.

All I can add is a reiteration that those who make it a mission to disprove spirituality to others engage in a fruitless campaign regardless of how much they personally are convinced.

wow...i love it

To sum it up it is folly for science to attempt to disprove faith and for faith to attempt to disprove science and for those on either side who attempt it they seem to be suspect and only doing so from a negative viewpoint and there is nothing positive in their motives.

So both the preacher (or amateur) and scientist (or amateur) who attempts to disprove and claim you are wrong if you believe this or that most likely has ulterior motives for attempting to do so and even more likely they will deny that they do.

No, science can, should and does disprove faith. Faith can't disprove science.

I do almost always respect your views inner space. But i believe you are judging my experiences and evaluation of my experiences through your own. And part of the problem with your particular judgement, which makes it difficult to refute is that your experiences are similar to mine .

However, there are significant differences. First no one has ever been able to find, or even suggest, any physical or psychological causation for my experiences, based on any medical or psychological assesments i have had up to and including he top experts in the main hospitals in my capital city

. Secondly I have had so many, but mostly the ones i have described here, either had independent witnesses of the physical events involved or can be verified as genuine experiences through independent witnesses. For example i have describe detailed visions of future events to people between the time i had the vision and when the events occured in the real world. I have recounted verbatim conversations peolpe had while I was asleep and yet hovering in some sort of obe experience over their heads.

These are not religious experiences, but i think they have a connection to the "cosmic sentience" if you want a value neutral term which many peole have sensed and come to call god.

I know we have had this debate before. I can only reiterate that in the examples i use, most often it is neither a subjective experience, nor is it confirmed by subjective experience.

Real physical events occur and real physical objects manifest into existence. These can be seen and verified by other people. True i cannot prove using scientific method the objective reality of these events. I would like to think that if i had had a team of scientists tracking my every move for 57 years they might have learned a lot from the experiences i have had.

I suspect that some might be coincidences of an extremely unlikely nature. However not one of those i describe can be classified as an hallucination or a delusion.

Your last comment is a beauty.Try to use it to explain how a being in physical form can exit a building via a balcony 5 stories above the ground and with no physical egres of any sort from that balcony to antywhere else. And if the being was an hallucination, a how could it be seen by the nursing staff who commented on his rather good looks and bhow did it manage to leave that bible on my bedside table? The same bible which when opened at random opened to the verse which goes "fear not for I am watching over you and no harm will come to you."

Im truly sorry, but i think that the effort taken to find a "rational" non paranormal explanation for that sequence of events(one of a number of similar ones in my life) says as much about the ingrained belief and value systems and predispositions of those i am coming to call god blind as it does about my state of mind or my own(non existent) predisposition to belief.

I am rarely, if ever, upset, by your comments in particular and certainly not belittled. I hope you can understand that i may feel a little patronised that you would see me as needing coping mechanisms to deal with the "harshness of life.

" My life is not and never has been harsh.Iit is filled with both physical wealth and incredible rich ness of the human spirit. I dont now, and never have, felt a "need" for god in my life. Before he insinuated himself into my world, i was completely happy, and probably as complacent with my life as the average young australian male can be. This only compounds my perplexity at why he chose me to interact physically with.

Certainly i recognise now the tremendous emotional and physical strengths a knowledge of god brings into one's life and my life has been uplifted, enriched, and improved financially and in every other way through his presence, but I never wanted, needed, nor expected him to come forcing his way into my life.

It is true also that, without his direct intervention in a number of cases, i would be dead several times, perhaps more, and that i really, truly do appreciate that fact, above all else. yes yes, I know that technically i would only have been dead once (the first time at about the age of 18)

No matter how close your experiences are to mine, you cannot fairly judge them by your own. Neither are you in a position to judge the objective reality of my experiences (although you may accurately do so for your own experiences and obviously have been able to come to a fully normal and rational explanation for them)

I know i keep repeating my self, in a number of posts, but it is clear that many people simply cannot accept the objective reality of the experiences i have had. While it is not my task to try and explain why they have so much difficulty, i do need to keep saying that my experiences cannot be judged by others. I appreciate that this also means they cannot be validated by, and may not be accepted by others who have not shared them , but i dont really have any problem with that. If i only speak to the very few people who do have experiences like mine, and offer one alternative viewpoint, then i am happy.

Some people I believe Mr Walker are more capable of being more in tune with spirituality than others no matter how hard both might believe. No matter what path they are on most of them I feel are able to for a purpose. I will not speculate what their exact purpose is but it has to do with simply helping other people when other people are open to being helped.

Your words once again are beautiful and I can only admire the style you have. That you speak less from the flesh and more from the Spirit. My I grow in Spirit and rise to that level if that is where the Spirit decides to take me.

I do know someone can go before a crowd and not say one single word, just stand there, with the Spirit strongly silently communicating through them, and that person would have said way more that someone offering long winded words laces with reason and scriptures.

actually science can't disprove faith. faith being something there is no proof for. now it may be nothing more than a chemical reaction in the brain. science is still out on the effect although the theory of religion , God , belief , faith does seem to hold some sort of brain chemistry change just like falling in love does and eating chocolate , but lets wait till all the evidence is in.

should science and can it ? science will do what science can do.

faith of course can't disprove science of it's own accord. Now if God decided to show Gods self to all at one time in the same way along with a physical mark on all ...... all over the world . Like at noon today ?? we'd be on to something. it would be kind of hard to dismiss that.

I have Faith that God died for my sins. How can science disprove that? In order to disprove this Faith, you have to prove that God does not exist and that God did not come and die for me. And as I'm sure you are aware, science cannot prove a negative - it is an impossibility. True, science may not be able to prove my Faith to be true. But then, I never claimed it could, whereas you claimed it could prove my Faith false. So I would like to ask how so?

But you are right that Faith cannot disprove science. Nor should it. I don't know why people (both Christians and non-Christians) take the view that science and God cannot coexist.

~ Regards, PA

MW by what means do you test and validate miracles or sightings from god????

am i correct in inferring that because this has been recorded through out history or lots of people claim this, this is sufficent reason for you to hold this 'view'......


In order to prove miracles one will need science and it just so happens science is doing amazing research in this field....Inner space has a great thread all about it for anyones consideration......

I'd say its a use of informal logic MW....

They are stuck within a conflict paradigm that filters their thinking. That is my opinion at least.

Of course science can't disprove that, or any other non-falsifiable assertions. I was talking about a more practical level. For example the faith in creationism can be disproved by science.

And I don't mean faith just as a religious concept, but as any belief held without evidence or despite of conflicting evidence, for example pyrokinesis, or whatever.

I'm assuming that you are making reference to me. It has not been my focus to disprove spirituality. I believe spirituality has many benefits. I question not so much the existence of god, but rather mankind's interpretation of god. There is a big difference. You've had many experiences, so have I and so has Mr. Walker and others.

So lets write down our collective experiences and our interpretation of god, and tell the world that our experiences are really, really god experiences...therefore that qualities me to tell others that I am "chosen" to instruct others on how they should live their lives.

Clovis, you want to join me in writing a book together? We could change the world.



Not everybody studies their Bible, but rather listens to preachers, evangelist, pastors. I know I have heard many sermons relating Ezk 3:17-18 to Christianity's responsibilities to "unsaved" souls.

Sermon Ezk 3:18 http://www.all-creatures.org/sermons97/s23nov97.html commentary

When we come to know the Lord, when we are born again, we take upon ourselves the souls of others; for as the Holy Spirit ministers to us, He also ministers to others through us.
We are indeed our brother's keeper.

And St. Francis of Assisi even referred to the animals as animals brothers. God put upon his heart that he was God messenger to the people, not only for their sakes, but also for those who could not speak for themselves.

Thus, we are responsible to lead and guide others in all the ways of the Lord.
As an example, if someone is doing something that we know in our heart is cruel to a human or non-human, we have a responsibility to tell that person to stop, and that what they are doing is not right.

If we do this, we have fulfilled our responsibility.
If we don't, we take upon ourselves the guilt of those we failed to guide.
I. We, As Christians, Should Be Careful That We Will Not Be Blamed!

A. Ezekiel 3:17-18, "Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."
B. Fathers! what about your Son? --- Mothers! what about your Daughters? --- what about your Brothers, your Sisters, your next door Neighbors?
Source

WE WILL ANSWER TO GOD FOR FAILING OUR MISSION... 1. Just as God told Ezekiel, whom He made to be "a watchman for the house of Israel" a. Ezekiel was to warn the wicked - Ezek 3:17 b. If Ezekiel failed to warn the wicked, the wicked would die for his own sin, but Ezekiel would also be held accountable! - Ezek 3:18-21 2.

Today, the church is God's "watchman" to the world! a. We are to take the gospel to every person! - Mk 16:15 b. Those who have not heard will die in their own sin, but we will be held accountable if we gave them no warning!

CONCLUSION" Brethren, if we are silent with regards to the "good news" (the gospel), then the words of the four lepers is true of us: "We are not doing right. This day is a day of good news, and we remain silent. If we wait until morning light, some punishment will come upon us. Now therefore, come, let us go and tell..." - 2 Ki 7:9 2. Yes, "let us go and tell" a world that is spiritually starved about the feast God offers through His Son Jesus Christ! Source

There is punishment for failing to win souls - Ezekiel 3;18-19 Source


2 Timothy 4:2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching.



I will reiterate that I don't have a mission to disprove spirituality, but rather I question mankinds interpretation of God and his "inspired" word. I think I've made that rather clear in several posts.

Obviously we have to filter out thinking, otherwise we end up believing that 1+1=3, that the earth is flat, etc..

clovis how can this be, there is no warfare conflict between the 2....

That's fair enough. But you might want to perhaps go back and reexamine Clovis' post which you made your comment towards, since I do not think he was referring to Creationism particularly when he made his statement that science could not disprove Faith.

Just a thought

~ PA

you bring in an excellent point, without standards with out a methodlogy of discerning our thoughts our imaginings how much of a jump is it too thinking you can guide others??? and who is it that falls prey?? often the young and naive.... by what merits do we assess our methods and this imo is a very sound and fair question ~V and one that should be asked..... over and over we see the harm of not asking ........As a mother having my childs thinking apparatus in good working order is a priority, is a must...when we have those that think there way is the only 'right way' and are closed to all other pov we at best create dogmas and tell others what to think not encourage them to think for themselves....


this is an extreme case but My mother was one such person, all the same experiences as we here on hear verbatum , before to long she was plotting to kill my sister..fortunately she was hospitalized and got help before she did....

there is a wonderful book callled Feet of Clay by Andrew Storr http://www.amazon.com/Feet-Clay-Anthony-Storr/dp/0684834952 which explores this in depth.....

faith and God aren't always exclusive. you may think you have faith in God and what you really may have is the faith of man written words and the effects of brain chemistry. A cause and effect solely man made. like eating chocolate.

Faith is akin to feeling. neither are proof of God. And the burden of proof is on the one that says God exists.

I didn't say science has proved faith/religion false , but it has made some interesting head way in that area.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...25072-1,00.html

Hi Mr. Walker. I'm glad you brought this point up...because this is exactly the point I want to make. You and I had very similar experiences. Mine were later discovered to be brought on by neurological conditions. I had been misdiagnosed since I was 4, when I began having these experiences. I saw many doctors. All gave me a clean bill of health, but eventually scaring was found on one of my temporal lobes. After looking at the MRI, I would see why it could be easily overlooked. It is believed that the scaring was brought on by birth trauma, and later exacerbated by other traumas later on in life.

You say yours were not brought on by any other condition other than, in your words... "you were chosen", and that indeed your experiences were "real" in every sense of the word.

About 10 percent of the population will experience at least 1 seizure in their lifetime. 3% will have repeated seizures. Source An over activation of electrical activity in the brain can cause what is known as microseizures. Many will never realize they had one. When a seizure happens over and over again, it's consider a seizure disorder. Neurologists have mapped the temporal lobes, and the scaring in my TL just happens to be in an area that is sensitive to spiritual/mystical experiences. My symptoms were visions of god, demons, angels, hyperreligiosity, etc.




I didn't mean to sound patronizing, but a lot of research does seem to suggest that we evolved these coping mechanisms, and they do serve a beneficial purpose in helping with the recovery of life's traumas. I know my personal coping mechanisms helped me get through some tough times in my life, and it's apparent they helped you as well.



I can only go by your posts, but you have posted several experiences of trauma in your life. It is neurologically documented that trauma will trigger microseizures. That doesn't mean you have a neurological contition, it just means that trauma can and does trigger these seizures.



Based on my own personal and professional experiences, I will always have doubts when people say they have had a physical encounter with god, or visions that are religious in nature. My own experiences once "fully" convinced me they were authentic visitations from god, angels, demons, but they were not.

If we were having this debate a few years ago, I'd be agreeing with you 100%.

Mr. Walker, thank you for taking the time fully address my post. I always enjoy our debates.

With kindest regard,

~V

edited to add source

Hi Sheri, great points. There are many directions this could take. Here are my thoughts.

Mr. Walker, I hope you don't mind me using your experiences to articulate a point. If you do, I will gladly edit the post.

Lets say for example we are living in 30AD. Mr. Walker has a profoundly life changing experience from god. He is an atheist, nevertheless, god chose him to be his spokesperson, and he begins to have god experiences. So, hypothetically speaking, he begins to write down his visions and messages from god.

I, on the other hand, am a believer in god, and have a personal relationship with him. I too, have god experiences, and have recorded my visions and messages from god. I also believe I'm chosen to be god's spokesperson.

Both our experiences appear to be representing the same god, and perhaps even documented similar messages/visions.

So, we both get this message from god that we have been called to share god's message to the world.

Looking at this scenario, how would anyone be able to discern who was really called? We both have experienced what seemed to be miracles and visitations from god and angels. We both believe we are chosen. We both abide by god's commandments.

Fast forward in time. Both our "sacred" writings are found, perhaps even in close proximity.

Mr. Walker's are 'real' god experiences, mine were brought on by neurological conditions that I was unaware of, as were those who found my manuscripts.

Repeating what Sheri said...by what merits do we assess our methods? What criteria was used, when the canons were put together, to determine "authentic" god experiences.

Although it can never be proven, many neurologists and historians seem to be in agreement that Apostle Paul and Ezekiel may have experienced seizures.



To support this view, people usually point to Saint Paul's experience on the road to Damascus, reported in the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament (Acts 9, 3-9), in which Paul, or Saul as he was known before his conversion to Christianity, is reported to have a fit similar to an epileptic seizure: '...suddenly a light from the sky flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him: ''Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?''...Saul got up from the ground and opened his eyes, but he could not see a thing... For three days he was not able to see, and during that time he did not eat or drink anything.'

Saul's sudden fall, the fact that he first lay motionless on the ground but was then able to get up unaided, led people very early on to suspect that this dramatic incident might have been caused by a grand mal seizure. In more recent times, this opinion has found support from the fact that sight impediment-including temporary blindness lasting from several hours to several days-has been observed as being a symptom or result of an epileptic seizure and has been mentioned in many case reports.

In his letters St Paul occasionally gives discreet hints about his 'physical ailment', by which he perhaps means a chronic illness. In the second letter to the Corinthians, for instance, he states: 'But to keep me from being puffed up with pride... I was given a painful physical ailment, which acts as Satan's messenger to beat me and keep me from being proud.' (2 Corinthians, 12,7). In his letter to the Galatians, Paul again describes his physical weakness: 'You remember why I preached the gospel to you the first time; it was because I was ill. But even though my physical condition was a great trial to you, you did not despise or reject me.' (Galatians 4, 13-14) In ancient times people used to spit at 'epileptics', either out of disgust or in order to ward off what they thought to be the 'contagious matter' (epilepsy as 'morbus insputatus': the illness at which one spits). Source





THE Bible may contain the oldest recorded case of temporal lobe epilepsy. Ezekiel, the prophet whose visions are recorded in a book of the Old Testament, apparently had all the classic signs of the condition.

Earlier this year Eric Altschuler, a neuroscientist at the University of California at San Diego, claimed that the Biblical strongman Samson may have been the earliest known sufferer of antisocial personality disorder (New Scientist, 17 February, p 19). Now he says that records in the Bible reveal that Ezekiel, who lived about 2600 years ago, showed extreme classic symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy.

People with the disease experience partial seizures, often accompanied by a dreamy feeling that things are not quite as they should be. Patients are often misdiagnosed with psychiatric problems. Neurologically, Ezekiel displayed some obvious signs of epilepsy, such as frequent fainting spells and episodes of not being able to speak.

The Biblical figure, who chronicled the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BC, exhibited other peculiarities associated with the disease. For instance, he wrote compulsively, a trait known as hypergraphia. Altschuler points out that the Book of Ezekiel is the fourth longest in the Bible-only slightly shorter than Genesis. "It's impenetrable," he says. "He goes on and on."

Ezekiel was also extremely religious, another characteristic associated with this form of epilepsy. While many Biblical figures are pious, none was as aggressively religious as Ezekiel, says Altschuler. Other signs of epilepsy can include aggression, delusions and pedantic speech-and the man had them all, Altschuler this week told a meeting of the Society for Neuroscience in San Diego.

Understanding that Ezekiel may have suffered from epilepsy helps put his writings into perspective, says Altschuler. "Once you appreciate that, you can see where he's coming from." "If there were no old cases," he says, "we'd have to ask if there was something wrong in our environment." Source




Sheri, thank you for the book link, and for your supportive and encouraging comments. You are an inspiration. oxo

Interesting theories but a two to thousand three year gap to offer a diagnosis is a bit. While I understand they are not actual diagnoses science is great in that it questions so many things.

This sort of reminds me of those people who see demons behind every shadow and common cold. Instead though it looks to the Bible and claims every single person who had a vision might have suffered seizures. If true it would be incredible that those few people have influenced large populations for so long all because of it.

Epilepsy and seizures are more common than people think as far as how they effect the whole population. I wonder how many of all those people are having god delusions?

That's a good question Clovis. It all depends on the location of seizure activity. That's why not everybody will have 'religious' experiences per se.

that is an excellent nquiry Clove man..... i had exepriences as Inner space and MW myself , minus demons and angels , i was hearing a voice... now in my case bieng a NB most of my life, i felt it was hallunications right off, no question about it mental illness runs in my family so I am actually relieved to hear that this has a sceincetific explination and that scientists as Inner S are researching this area.........

A few experiences I have had were outside of me as in doors moving and such. I have felt entities a few times as well. But I have only seen actual entities three times.

I grew up in a strong faith based family. I preached once to a crowd at five. I was talking in tongues and strong in the Spirit by eight. By nine or ten I started getting caught up in the world. By twelve or so I stopped going to church. Since then I have always believed in God but did not follow the path. For the last ten years I have went to church and stopped, started again stopped, and so forth.

Once as a child at around the age of four I saw some woman looking into my window, her face changed dramatically and horribly before my eyes. We were face to face. The memory remains vivid. It was my mother's face then it changed. When I cried and said 'mom scared me why did mom scare me' my sisters took me down the hall and my mother was reading a book.

Before 12 I used to have many terrible dreams. Sleep paralysis episodes and they occur infrequently now. Maybe every couple of years or so I have an episode.

When I was around 12 or so my sister was cutting my hair and nicked my neck with the scissors. I felt sleepy. Next thing I know I was like 'why am I asleep on the floor here?' She was panicking. I was like 'what happened?'. She said I had a seizure and began turning blue so she gave me CPR and stuck a spoon in my mouth.

When I was around 14 I felt entities. While meditating once I felt power. It is hard to describe but it was like I was seeking power. Then I accepted it. Then surge after surge, it felt like ripples. my chest felt liquid, but surge after surge entered me. Demons. I used to do tons of mental magic. Focus and project thoughts on others for different reasons mainly enemies and mainly love interests. Would appear in their dreams or so they said.

I used to meditate tons for a few years after that. I have astral projected before. Had an OOBE once. All types of magic and magical systems. Developed my own magic, etc...I have since rejected that type of power that the spirits who entered me and asked God to cleanse me. I would rather allow His Spirit to guide me and His power flow through me as the Spirit wills -instead of- me willing the spirits, me wielding the power, and me choosing how to direct it.

I was walking with a friend once at night in a walmart parking lot. We were discussing the paranormal. I told him about how I felt I was always called to preach and how I do not feel up to it and such. Then at that very moment I looked at my steps and stepped on something. Picked it up it was a small plastic sandwich bag cut in half and inside was a Sunday school arts and crafts object. A construction paper Jesus fish and on it was the scripture that says 'I shall make you fishers of men'.

The next entity I saw was at church few years back. I was focused on the pastor. A good pastor who explained to us that not everyone has to believe in the Bible to go to heaven and he showed us where it said it. That is besides the fact but when I was focusing on him I saw a woman three rows up or so just staring at me. She was new like us appeared very worldly too in appearance. I did a double take and no she was looking forward. But then within that one second it all sank in. Tons of information in a split second. I saw a demon in her. It was ugly, like that ugly white sausage they sell in stores, that is how its skin looked like and it was also like very saggy, it looked like something was pulling its skin down. It looked at me with recognition. It looked at me like it was saying 'I know you.' I did not think about it after that information overload I kept on focusing on the pastor.

Later that night I pondered about it and it struck me that its skin was that way because it was melting. It was a demon on the verge of being defeated. So that is how a demon looks like when it no longer has the liberty to remain in its host because now Christ is taking its place I thought. It was looking for another host. Then it struck me. After all my research into demons and magic in the past that maybe I am called into spiritual warfare and my whole path had been for a reason even when I strayed from the faith.

Spiritual warfare is not something to take likely. It is bad enough being a pastor with all the attacks Satan and his minions will look for in a pastor and his family. But spiritual warfare is on another level. You are not even supposed to lay hands on another in prayer unless you are strong in the Spirit because something in them could get in you if you are not. Spiritual warfare is beyond all that. Dangerous. You have to be so much stronger. But I have not chosen that path yet. Even though I feel I might have a gift of discernment if I was to get stronger in the Spirit than I am now. With all the proof I have had in many forms some might say well why haven't you yet?

Spiritual warfare though and the discernment of demons is very specified. Those who have the gift do not advertise. They can even see a demon in another and they will not even tell them. The reason they see these things is only so they can know. What is the purpose of knowing and not doing anything? Well they do do something. They pray, pray and pray. Spiritual warriors pray. Prayer is the main weapon for the newest of believers to the most hard core Christian soldiers in spiritual warfare. So I prayed for that lady it was all I could do. All that came to me that night I saw the demon in her through revelation. That that is why I saw it was so I can pray for her and that is how the Lord wanted to use me.

Me and my wife had an argument once and we left home. When we came back there was this terrible smell. I began cleansing the house and it left just like that. There was a terrible negative feeling left in the house we thought but that too left after cleansing every room by prayer.

OK next episode of actually seeing an entity. I was in the dining room and I saw a shadow person in the hallway. The very spot it stood at is actually about four feet behind me from where I am sitting now in my study. It was an entity that took up space so not a shadow on the wall, more like someone would appear standing in very dim lighting, I could not see any features it was all black, but I could see the silhouette. It was a woman for when it turned I could see the hem of the dress turn with her. Just the silhouette of it.

So with all that, knowing I had at least one episode of seizure before, what do you make of it Inner Space? Was I having micro seizures perhaps? Would I have had them since childhood? Why did I have a major one when my neck was nicked barely it did not even draw blood but left a tiny scratch? Am I still having them? When I do not concern myself with spiritual things I never feel the Spirit and am dead spiritually. When I turn to God then I feel it. And anyone else feel free to comment. That is the most I have poured myself out on these forums and might be the most I ever do.

wow, clovis this is so brave of you to share such experinces on a open forum to investigate adn perhaps help others to share ... i commend you for your openess (((HUGS)))) and you are in luck Inner space is the person to talk iwth on this she has helped not only me but alot of us....

Aye, well an informal opinion of hers, you know as much as can be said over the net without actual tests, would be great. All the talk of seizures is fascinating. Knowing I have had one terrible episode makes me want to know more.

Thank you clovis for those kind words. I am not a very prepossessing person to look, at being quite short and rather rotund, and I don't know that anyone would see the spirit shining from me at the best of times. However, i try to live as i believe, and that ceratinly is noticed and commented on by people.

One of the talents god gave me was literacy, being able to read from the time i was about 2 and write from the age of 3. Despite my techno -luddite failings from being born before the age of computers, and thus never developing the key board skills of those born in later generations, i enjoy the correxpondence on line this forum offers. I ask only the chance to put my viewpoints, and do the best i can within my own limitations to both respect, and to learn from, the wisdom and knowledge of others.

I do appreciate that everyone has a unique world view, comprised of their environment and thought processes, and that usually it takes soomething much more dramatic than mere words to shake those world views. As i said, however, there may be some with whom my words resonate and to whom they offer some comfort and support

I particularly respect innerspace's contributions because, in a different way, they offer understanding and sense to people who may have great difficulties coming to grips with their experiences. Its just that, with the best will in the world ,and the best logical examination i can make, my experiences and causation do not seem to mirror hers, and thus I can not allow her to define my experiences as subjective, or evidenced only by subjective realities.

ps I wrote and posted this without reading through the remaining posts, and thus had not read about your experiences. Like supra, i admire your courage in posting, and sincerely hope you make a life for yourself which integrates your experiences into a positive and empowering future for yourself and your family.
If you are like me, that integration will involving discovering the "truth" as accurately as you can, but even if you never find that completely, you have the ability to make those experiences into something very positive ( a point i think inner space was trying to make to me about my own experiences)

Clovis...Thank you for sharing so personally, I couldn't agree more with what Sheri said. As I was reading, I was thinking to myself how much our experiences were so much alike, even down to the sleep paralysis. I am humbled that you asked for my opinion, and I realize how hard it must have been to post so openly. I can relate. It was very difficult for me to share so personally in my OP here:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=120688

I posted the link cuz I'm not sure if you've read it yet, but I shared a few of my experiences that I think you can relate to. I've had TLE since I was 4, and I started having very frightful visions at first. I also would start to smell something putrid, and get tingling sensations in my hand, although not everybody will have the same symptoms. Like you, I also got involved in spiritual warfare, which I shared in my OP.

Based on your post, and since you've asked for my informal opinion, I do believe it would be in your best interest to seek a medical specialist such as a neurologist for an evaluation. It certainly can't hurt, and at lease you will know one way or the other. It's a win, win situation, imo.

I have posted some links below that may be helpful in your decision to seek professional advise. The first two links are videos, and I think you will find them very informative. The other links relate to seizures. I hope these will help. Please feel free to PM me anytime.


http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2198113 videos

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2209444 videos

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2209419 TLE Questionnaire

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2204867

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2184315

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2209444

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2182464

Respectfully,

~V

As always, interesting responses innerspace. I will only reply to two things. First if I have any underlying physical cause it is undetected by the best science in australia including full enhanced mri scans. I could not have lived with myself without pursuing that avenue of enquiry to the limit possible. Second I have had what many people might think of or categorise as traumatic events in my life. However everyone of them came long after god introduced himself to me. When that first happened I did not immediatelty recognise or accept what was happening. This realisation came both cumulatively and dramatically with my first "angel incident".

Up to that time i was a typical long haired, surfing, drinking, smoking, young man who, only by great good fortune (looking back i can even see the hand of god in this) was able to remain celibate until he was married, and free from the use of any drugs other than nicotine and tobacco , with an intense intellectual deire to know the truth about everything. I had been brought up to be both a good person, and a good citizen, but from aan ethical rather than spiritual viewpoint

In addition ,what others may have experienced as trauma did not affect me or my wife in that way. They were actually strengthening, empowering, liberating, and uplifting experiences. Given the comments from many onlookers, our perspective was somewhat unique, but that is what the power of the holy spirit, once established in you, can offer as a practical benefit to life on earth.

When we looked after her parents with increasing altzheimers for 6 years until they died, many people spoke of the hours of effort and hard work, involving perhaps a few hours sleep a night, by saying "i could never have done that. you are so wonderful"

I had to reply, in all honesty, that it was never a burden, never depressing, and never hard (except in physical terms). We gained so much joy, and knowledge, and understanding, from the experience, that it was never, ever, difficult to do.

The only comparison i can make to most people might be having and raising a child. Our experience was like that, only in reverse; as they declined into childhood, back to non sentience and death, and all the problems came in a bigger version.

Almost finally, i can only say that neurological disorders cannot create experiences which are shared and witnessed by others. There may be certain sociological disorders which can do that, but there is no evidence I, or the people around me, suffer from those, either.

Finally neurological disorders cannot influence the physical universe in ways which create physical alterations or additions to that universe (or perhaps they can and they are not neurological disorders but natural ability of the human mind), but that is a separate, although related, question.

If humans alone can physically manifest all the attributes of god then PERHAPS we can be truly said to have created god in our own image. (Some how i find this more difficult to accept than the commonly experienced alternative)

That would mean that i alone (without any physical god) can accurately see the future, read minds, have verifiable obe, cure myself of nicotine addiction and all its symptoms, manifest bibles and people out of thin air , create electricity, see where lost objects are and find them etc. It wpuld mean also i am then able to create both internal and external dialogues, to give prior warnings of the dangers i face, and act to avoid them..

Oh how i wish.

I can create whole dreamscapes as i will, but i am completely aware of the difference between my dreamscapes and physical reality. I can only ever dream of being the silver surfer.,(An enduring adolescent fantasy, courtesy of marvel comics) and it is even less likely that i, personally, display any of the attributes of god. lol

Might i add that i completely support and endorse innerspaces advice to anyone to get the best medical sdvice possible for both physical and psychological symptoms of what might be severe but manageable physical or pschological treatment. No rational person in their right mind could do otherwise.

I just respectfully suggest that there are things in this universe, and in human experience, which are not explicable (as much as it would be comforting to believe so) by as yet available human science.

Thus, sometimes we are forced to look beyond the bounds of present science to find any answer at all. Because i know god is real, I do expect him to one day be "discovered," quantified, and qualified by science; when he feels humanity is ready for that knowledge.

He may then turn out not to be anything like my experiences lead me to believe, but until then those experiences are my best source for deducing the nature and purpose ogf god, supported by the secondary and tertiary evidence from other sources.

Thank you IS for posting all the links. Your first post on the first linke resonated immediately. Especially when you mentioned sleep paralysis then said by administering frequencies between the alpha and theta waves. That range as I have known for a while is the the ones we experience when first drifting off to sleep when many hypnagogic hallucinations and hypnic jerks can occur. I am sure you know this already though. As a side note there is a difference between watching movies recorded with old style film and watching movies recorded digitally. Alpha and beta waves respectively and while the first make one feel pleasant and lively the other makes one feel anxious and more like a zombie. The latter can not only be found in digital but also old school videotape.

It is going to take me some time to actually wade through all the links and posts within them. As of right now I am going through an information overload on three different levels at once. All of them are rapidly connecting dots for me and adding more to things I have been interested in for a while.

I will add that my experiences seem to be sort of the opposite of yours at least judging by the first post. My life can be hell emotionally during the times I have not been God focused. When I turn back to God I experience peace. Maybe that is not complete opposites as your experiences since I completely left out any spiritual components to those two polarities of my life.

Either way I would like to thank you, Isis, and lmbeharry for giving me or directing me towards information that has led me to my information overload. Soon as I sort it out I know I will know more than I did before coming to these forums.

I did forget to add that as a child I was a knowledge sponge...still am as of sorts. I grew up spending many nights reading anything I could get my hands on. The encyclopedia set was my best friend for many years. And for some reason I would be able to hear my brain...maybe it was not my brain but I could hear feint sounds, maybe I was not actually hearing them in audibly since I could more or less sense it, that my brain was moving, the sound if it was even a sound was like tiny squeaking. Most of the time this was while I was in a 'learning mode' and that goes hand in hand with being in an 'imagination mode' because when I learn things it is as if I am almost transported somewhere else. Not sure how that fits in but I wanted to add that bit to my previous post.

What would constitute as evidence of the existence of a spirit? I'm definitley not religious, in fact, I'm Atheistic in nature. But I disagree with your outlook on spirits.

wow i show most of the conditions. [except cultural]

man ive been trying speak tongues but noo stupid people not teaching me enough language.

paranoia is easily shrugged of but theres still that what if.

iv started seeing the dopplerganger recently [figures stuff always happens to make me seem like a hypo condriac except the symptoms predate the knowledge by a few days.]

too bad the info is outdated and old.

ive figured it out logically from experience that and the others who just give me knowledge bam straight in my head,

this beautiful gift gives me ultimate power but ultimate weakness. only i choose my defeat and i choose it often to avoid the madness. but im afraid ill never excel if i dont use the madness. those who fight it shatter. those who run get consumed by fear of madness. i must conquer it and then use it in a great display to prove what it really is.

humanities subconcious. it is chaotic thus observing or blending leads to madness or extreme phusical recoil [seizures].
im not a doctor put i am a subject [docters start somewhwre]

I was thinking of the 'mr. walker ' example above , that both could be nothing more than brain chemistry. One need not be mentally ill or epileptic even. ( seizures can happen to anyone fyi ) Like the feelings of attraction that some call love . it really isn't . which is why they wonder why it ( that pow feeling ) wanes after awhile. that over riding sense of faith too can wax and wane. chemistry.

what if both believed they were in touch with God and in that belief both wrote ? how do you know either of them were ? you don't. now what if one was christian and one muslim ? or hindu ?

isn't it conceivable in theory that God 'speaks' to all 3 it's just the listening is different ? none being right ? isn't it conceivable all 3 are feeling nothing more than dopamine and seratonian rushes mistaking that for faith ? God ?

and how would anyone know the difference ?

feelings , faith and belief are not proof of God. again no matter how much you wish it to be.



sure , man feels small and afraid. God stands as a parent figure which would simulate a peace just like we feel as kids. safe , secure . doesn't make it real. we play mind games all the time for various reasons. like rabbits feet and four leaf clovers. God is a big 4 leaf clover maybe.

again I do believe in God , but that's a feeling and just because I and alot of people feel it doesn't make it proof . I'm just showing that there is no proof of such. it's called honesty.

There has been much talk of this all being chemical reaction. I first heard about the God part of the brain on C2CAM quite a few years back. For one person it might be look God is all chemicals. But I have faith and believe God works through those chemicals. Some say astral travel is just the pineal gland. But ancients were able to chart the stars, Mayan prophecy says they were able to see the Earth from afar, yet it might work through the brain but the fact they saw it all for me shows they actually were able to leave their bodies. They were able to predict eclipses down to the second. Man forgot how to do those things and now with computers are we able to realize what they did. Some will say they had nothing better to do that kick back and study the stars. What about the megaliths then? With all our technology we could not even attempt to build a megalith.

It was no hallucination when the ancients went into the astral and drew the Nazca lines. People did not even know they were there till they flew over on planes. There is no way they were able to draw them simply by having a land based perspective. The ancients left us clues and to ignore them is pretty ignorant of us. The one time I went into astral I did not like it so never tried again. I did not go far. But others say they have and seen the earth the same way. Something more is going on that just chemical reactions. Love is the greatest gift we have and to say it is chemical reactions is pretty bleak. There would be no sense of getting married and falling in love if we are just robots moved by chemical reactions.

faith and belief are not proof.

I have faith and belief science will start breaking down the God code.

You have to admit you too have faith in a sense and a belief in a sense in your own views. They work for you and mine work for me. Regardless of the lack of empirical evidence I am not going to base my life or my afterlife (which you might not even believe it exists) on what empirical evidence can offer.

I believe in God , but don't think science will ever break down the God code. since God is something , to me at least , unfathomable to human mind be it religious or science. In our limited capacity we just can't. and it will always be one step ahead. No book , no person , no science can ever prove it. feelings are not proof and should be very circumspect. Science may speculate . God may be what makes the universe 'vibrate' , but we will never know for sure. not humanly. Maybe God is nothing more than the collective energy of all living matter. of all energy. living or not.

no way of knowing. that's where faith comes in. yet that is not proof either.

if you could measure God ...... then it wouldn't be God. it would have limitations eventually. it wouldn't be all powerful. all knowing.

Well the God code would not be figuring out God. More like lifting His fingerprint as a sample. A fingerprint cannot define a man but even if it is such a little part of one it is unique. Figuratively speaking of course.

Just as science right now can't disprove the teapot between here and mars floating around is there.

This chemical reaction is our own imagination the theory is going off of. It does sort of make sense though I think it has more to do with the social situations as the other theory the article stated because of the tons of faiths out there that are all 'right'.

And what would make this religion or god be any different then say another idea or another faith? It's already been shown through brain scans that praying, meditation and other focusing of the mind as such shuts off a part of our brain that makes us self aware. That feeling of prayer is nothing more then your brain function shifting and the rest is your own hopes and desires to manipluate your thoughts and beliefs. Course it's more complexed then just that rambling of mine but that's the boiling of it. Each stimuli coaxed to what people want it to be.



One would think that just by looking at the past and all that we've shed that has been primitive and unlikely for us would be tossed aside to stride forward. Religions, cults, faiths and groups were only made up as history played out.

You ask for science to disprove your faith when you lack the abliity to even prove your faith to anybody else but yourself. Muslims, buddhists, hindus, jews, mormons, scientologists, taoists, bahaists, shintoists and all the rest have just as much faith in what they believe is 'right' for the true religion. Where each one of them has been born into a culture that is conditioned for them. Even christians change their faith here and there when it suits them when the culture doesn't fit. Then for each one of those believers in each one of those vast many faiths want to really label themselves a devote follower, they would have to dismiss the possiblity that all other faiths are wrong... Which of course is going to be based on their own experience which everybody else in the other faiths use as well to justify their beliefs. Most commonly it's the faith they grew up with either as a believer or most familiar with. But they're all true to those people...

To me, that's nothing more then an idea that grew from the culture of the past in that area and even the imagination of the first humans that really started to think like we do today.

To add, it's quite interesting to me on how these concepts are developed and designed by the different cultures. I've started a little bit into lesser religions rather then the major ones lately. I started on my own ancestors a bit with ancient celt religion... Not far into it but am curious about it. It's like learning about a dead and gone people for how they acted, why and what they did with their lifes but with that it's the interweaved ideas of religion that grace their everyday lifes like a sun god, crop god or whatever for their own little culture and set of rules because then they really had no concept of the outside world and more of what their daily lives and things in it as in what made them tick.