I find eternity and nothingness impossible to comprehend.
Hense why I have no proper thoughts on the origins of everything.
Belieiving in God makes me question how long was God there on His own, before he made everything we know? Or did he make things before and destroy them many times over? Why? Regardless, I cannot comprehend anything other than "it had to start somewhere". So at some point some time there was nothing... And I can't comprehend that either, because then how did it start? And what made God? Himself? Surely that's as "something from nothing" as big bang theory?
S'all just as daft from my point of view.
Full Version: Origins of the Universe
QUOTE (lmbeharry @ May 4 2008, 11:10 AM) 
A quantum probability function for a quark "particle/anti-particle pair" that became self-aware. Through the recognition, the probability collapsed, space formed, the anti-particle decayed into energy forming more space. This left room for additional functions to collapse - and the inflationary universe was spawned!
1st Edit: There's gotta be a probability associated with becoming self-aware. Maybe 10 exp(-43)? Is that about right?
1st Edit: There's gotta be a probability associated with becoming self-aware. Maybe 10 exp(-43)? Is that about right?
We are still waiting
fullywired
QUOTE (HAJiME @ May 4 2008, 10:17 AM)
I find eternity and nothingness impossible to comprehend.
Hense why I have no proper thoughts on the origins of everything.
Belieiving in God makes me question how long was God there on His own, before he made everything we know? Or did he make things before and destroy them many times over? Why? Regardless, I cannot comprehend anything other than "it had to start somewhere". So at some point some time there was nothing... And I can't comprehend that either, because then how did it start? And what made God? Himself? Surely that's as "something from nothing" as big bang theory?
S'all just as daft from my point of view.
Hense why I have no proper thoughts on the origins of everything.
Belieiving in God makes me question how long was God there on His own, before he made everything we know? Or did he make things before and destroy them many times over? Why? Regardless, I cannot comprehend anything other than "it had to start somewhere". So at some point some time there was nothing... And I can't comprehend that either, because then how did it start? And what made God? Himself? Surely that's as "something from nothing" as big bang theory?
S'all just as daft from my point of view.
Don't forget that physics tells us that "time" is itself a fabrication of this universe. So GOD erupted within time, not outside of it. Even GOD must be subject to the rules of this universe, because outside of this universe there is absolutely nothing. In fact, within this universe there is absolutely nothing...
I think GOD erupted because in the absence of time, everything is possible. This concept is hard for humans to get their minds around. But in the absence of time (not even talking about eternity) - just no time - YAHWEH/ALLAH/BEING/GOD/Cosmos/Quantum Probabilities whatever you want to call HIM/IT must erupt...
The absence of time assumes ENDLESS POSSIBILITIES
Indeed lmbeharry. For man to even come close to understanding some aspects of God they have to be able to escape the paradigm of time to which man is so clearly bound to. A difficult concept I doubt anyone can fully conceive. In my partial conceptions though I can see how free will and destiny coincide. In a more Christ-centric view I can imagine how the world was created from the beginning with the blueprints that Christ would be the final sacrifice. For us time is linear but outside of this paradigm time is not linear nor does time, the kind that encompasses a past, present, and future, exists.
QUOTE
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
QUOTE (Ozi @ May 2 2008, 02:45 PM)
Well then, the question then is, if we and our universe are a result of another, how did the other come in to being.
Lets stick to established scientific facts. Which are, the universe before the big bang was a point of singularity, small things where everything was united as one. Something or someone caused the big bang, as a result time and space began, the early stages of the universe were a premordial hot soup of gas which then cooled and eventually the galaxies, planets, stars etc came in to being. There is no disputing this,as its proven by observations by Hubble, mathamatics, physics etc, its established fact, the rest are all theories at the moment, like you M theory and String theory.
Lets stick to established scientific facts. Which are, the universe before the big bang was a point of singularity, small things where everything was united as one. Something or someone caused the big bang, as a result time and space began, the early stages of the universe were a premordial hot soup of gas which then cooled and eventually the galaxies, planets, stars etc came in to being. There is no disputing this,as its proven by observations by Hubble, mathamatics, physics etc, its established fact, the rest are all theories at the moment, like you M theory and String theory.
There is no 'established scientific fact' that the universe began as a singularity. That is a Theory - not a fact. There is no established fact that time and space began with the Big Bang. Certainly the universe we can observe seems to have begun then, but the Big Bang cannot have occured without time (and probably space) already existing. Similarly, time and space would have had to existed for any Creator to have enacted a creation. If Time and Space existed before the Creator then the Creator did not 'create' everything.
If the Creator did not create everything then this calls into question the veracity of the Abrahamic traditions in which God is commonly ascribed as having created everything.
QUOTE (Leonardo @ May 5 2008, 03:07 PM)
There is no 'established scientific fact' that the universe began as a singularity. That is a Theory - not a fact. There is no established fact that time and space began with the Big Bang. Certainly the universe we can observe seems to have begun then, but the Big Bang cannot have occured without time (and probably space) already existing. Similarly, time and space would have had to existed for any Creator to have enacted a creation. If Time and Space existed before the Creator then the Creator did not 'create' everything.
If the Creator did not create everything then this calls into question the veracity of the Abrahamic traditions in which God is commonly ascribed as having created everything.
If the Creator did not create everything then this calls into question the veracity of the Abrahamic traditions in which God is commonly ascribed as having created everything.
That is an interesting point, but that leads to the fact that there needs to be an infinite amound of events before the Big Bang which is more logically corrupt. I don't really understand it, but I don't think the universe started in existence at a specific "point" if it was created. It sprung into existence in an infinite nature which is impossible to understand as in our perspective, everything in reality is existence within the concept of time. We think infinite as outside of time, but that's not it. It is not "timeless" it is a completely different concept. I think in your perspective, infinite means infinite arrows or timem, or existence in all times at once. But that's not it, although it's part of infinite nature.
sorry for the dramatic pause
town wide power out yesterday for the whole day.
if god is an alien i bet his corpse be prove for scientists [zealous dudes dont care whats true]
god how did i have that the other day. [darn now i have to go mad to remember my fancy science proves god sermon]
give me a bit to revisit old posts
town wide power out yesterday for the whole day.
if god is an alien i bet his corpse be prove for scientists [zealous dudes dont care whats true]
god how did i have that the other day. [darn now i have to go mad to remember my fancy science proves god sermon]
give me a bit to revisit old posts
QUOTE (Dragohunter @ May 5 2008, 08:22 PM)
That is an interesting point, but that leads to the fact that there needs to be an infinite amound of events before the Big Bang which is more logically corrupt. I don't really understand it, but I don't think the universe started in existence at a specific "point" if it was created. It sprung into existence in an infinite nature which is impossible to understand as in our perspective, everything in reality is existence within the concept of time. We think infinite as outside of time, but that's not it. It is not "timeless" it is a completely different concept. I think in your perspective, infinite means infinite arrows or timem, or existence in all times at once. But that's not it, although it's part of infinite nature.
That an effect must have a cause is very logical, so infinite regression (or perhaps an infinite cycle of finite regressions) is a logical conclusion to the question of origins. That we cannot comprehend infinity does not make it illogical or logically corrupt.
QUOTE (Yorgmiester @ May 1 2008, 03:43 PM)
This is not a debate about evolution vs. creation,this is a debate about random chance vs. intelligent design(Not the infamous new ID theory that is supposedly a conspiracy and ben stein recently made a movie about,but the belief that an intelligent being created the universe that has been around for centuries).Big Bang?Intelligent Design?IUT?Random Chance?Some other theory?
To start it off,I'll 'attack' the Big Bang theory
a few questions for anyone who believes it:
1.How did it happen?
2.If you believe that there was nothing and that nothing exploded into something,then it is possible for 'god' to create something out of nothing,right?
3.If you believe that there were gases or dust particles or something that exploded,then where did they come from?
4.If you believe that they were always there,then it is possible for 'god' to have always been there,right?
I'm not gonna ask for evidence because that wouldn't be fair,seeing as my theory(ID) has little or no evidence either
To start it off,I'll 'attack' the Big Bang theory
a few questions for anyone who believes it:
1.How did it happen?
2.If you believe that there was nothing and that nothing exploded into something,then it is possible for 'god' to create something out of nothing,right?
3.If you believe that there were gases or dust particles or something that exploded,then where did they come from?
4.If you believe that they were always there,then it is possible for 'god' to have always been there,right?
I'm not gonna ask for evidence because that wouldn't be fair,seeing as my theory(ID) has little or no evidence either
yorg ,
if you have stopped to watch an ice cube melt, you are well on the way to finding your answers.
if i may suggest you get hold of the ramacharaka book gnani yoga, you will find some answers to those questions - at least as close an answer that we have available to our understanding, at this moment in our evolution
its online aslo
http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/rea...58&pageno=2
QUOTE (Yorgmiester @ May 1 2008, 02:43 PM)
This is not a debate about evolution vs. creation,this is a debate about random chance vs. intelligent design(Not the infamous new ID theory that is supposedly a conspiracy and ben stein recently made a movie about,but the belief that an intelligent being created the universe that has been around for centuries).Big Bang?Intelligent Design?IUT?Random Chance?Some other theory?
To start it off,I'll 'attack' the Big Bang theory
a few questions for anyone who believes it:
1.How did it happen?
2.If you believe that there was nothing and that nothing exploded into something,then it is possible for 'god' to create something out of nothing,right?
3.If you believe that there were gases or dust particles or something that exploded,then where did they come from?
4.If you believe that they were always there,then it is possible for 'god' to have always been there,right?
I'm not gonna ask for evidence because that wouldn't be fair,seeing as my theory(ID) has little or no evidence either
To start it off,I'll 'attack' the Big Bang theory
a few questions for anyone who believes it:
1.How did it happen?
2.If you believe that there was nothing and that nothing exploded into something,then it is possible for 'god' to create something out of nothing,right?
3.If you believe that there were gases or dust particles or something that exploded,then where did they come from?
4.If you believe that they were always there,then it is possible for 'god' to have always been there,right?
I'm not gonna ask for evidence because that wouldn't be fair,seeing as my theory(ID) has little or no evidence either
I thought I'd better address the OP, sorry for drifting around before doing this Yorg!!
1) We have insufficient evidence/knowledge to say exactly how the universe began. Some serious scientific theories of comological origins dispute the Big Bang. If you are asking what may have caused the Big Bang, however, my guarded (and incomplete) answer would be pressure/stress/tension.
2) No scientific theory about the Big Bang concludes it happened out of nothing, so this negates your challenge regarding one argument against God being the creator of the universe.
3) No scientific theory about cosmological origins deals with what might have been present before the universe we happen to be a part of, began. It is logical to conclude something was present, after all something cannot arise out of nothing
, but current thought leads towards all physics being 'born' at the moment the universe began and so the tools we have to explore the cosmos are inadequate to determine what may have preceded it.4) We have evidence the universe is 'here' and a lack of evidence that something can arise from nothing. It seems likely, therefore, that something has always been present. While this does not negate the possibility of god always being present, we would have to have some evidence of the existence of god for that possibility to be acknowledged.
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