This is not a debate about evolution vs. creation,this is a debate about random chance vs. intelligent design(Not the infamous new ID theory that is supposedly a conspiracy and ben stein recently made a movie about,but the belief that an intelligent being created the universe that has been around for centuries).Big Bang?Intelligent Design?IUT?Random Chance?Some other theory?

To start it off,I'll 'attack' the Big Bang theory

a few questions for anyone who believes it:
1.How did it happen?
2.If you believe that there was nothing and that nothing exploded into something,then it is possible for 'god' to create something out of nothing,right?
3.If you believe that there were gases or dust particles or something that exploded,then where did they come from?
4.If you believe that they were always there,then it is possible for 'god' to have always been there,right?

I'm not gonna ask for evidence because that wouldn't be fair,seeing as my theory(ID) has little or no evidence either

At some point in the near future, the technological singularity occurs. The new Singularity projects itself backward through time and recreates itself through the "original" mass singularity, creating a closed Time loop, leaving the conservation of energy law completely intact.

Being serious, however - I have absolutely no idea.

The history of the universe made easy part 1
The history of the universe made easy part 2

That is of course not what scientists believe.

If you want to find out where the big bang came from, I suggest you read up on the M-theory.
The BBC has a great documentary about it on youtube

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

And yes, it is "possible", but there is absolutely no reason to think it is so. Just like there is no reason to think that I, Wombat, created the universe.

What are you talking about? I don't think anyone says that.

Eh? The universe is 13,7 billion years old.

We don't know where the universe came from, but that isn't proof of a creator. I've said this before - the gaps in one theory do not validate another.

Its a pathetic generic creationist/ID etc etc argument. Pick something you know we have no answer to, or you don't understand and then fill the gaps in with a God-type creator.

All you're doing is proving you know nothing about physics. We think that universe formed from an infinitely dense singularity. The early stages of the universe were very very different to what it looks like now - the physical laws were formed during this process, so it wasn't a case of NOTHING then BIG EXPLOSION WITH GALAXIES FLYING OUT.

To the best of our knowledge, here is what happened:

The Planck epoch (10 to the power of -43 seconds after Big Bang):

The four fundamental forces — electromagnetism, weak nuclear force, strong nuclear force and gravity — all have the same strength, so they are possibly unified into one fundamental force. Physicists hope that proposed theories of quantum gravity, such as string theory and loop quantum gravity, will eventually lead to a better understanding of this epoch.

The grand unification epoch (10 to the power of -36 seconds after Big Bang):

The universe expands and cools. Gravity begins to separate from the fundamental gauge interactions: electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces.

The electroweak epoch etween (10 to the power of -12 seconds after the Big Bang)

The temperature of the universe is low enough (1028K) to separate the strong force from the electroweak force. This phase transition triggers a period of exponential expansion known as cosmic inflation. After inflation ends, particle interactions are still energetic enough to create large numbers of exotic particles, including W and Z bosons and Higgs bosons.

The inflationary epoch (Between 10 to the power of -36 seconds and 10 to the power of -32 seconds after the Big Bang)

During inflation, the universe is flattened. Some energy from photons becomes virtual quarks and hyperons, but these particles decay quickly. One scenario suggests that prior to cosmic inflation, the universe was cold and empty, and the immense heat and energy associated with the early stages of the big bang was created through the phase change associated with the end of inflation.

There are a further 4 epochs that describe the time between 1 second and 380,000 years after the Big Bang but I'm not going to go into them here, save to say that hydrogen and helium atoms didn't begin to form for another 210,000 years.

So we have a pretty good idea of the phyics that describe this time. And guess what? None of it involves a creator.

We will probably never know why the big bang happened. But again, this doens't prove the existence of God. It is a stupid question anyway, as time did not exist, so our the concept of "before" is meaningless. You can read more here.

Oh, and rectifying something you said above - ID has no evidence.

^i completely agree

i mean... i believe that God created the universe!!!!!!!

I never tried to prove anything.I just started a topic

I heard somewhere(not from my pastor or parents or a christian organization)that one theory about the big bang was that there were dust particles or some form of matter that somehow exploded.That's why i asked question #3.I also heard that another theory was that there was nothing,and it exploded into the universe.That was the reason for question #2.I heard all this at a science something-or-other somewhere i can't remember now but it was a while ago so the facts are probably updated by now
The reason for question #4 was because in an interview with Richard Dawkins on a *ahem*certain movie when asked where certain elements that were needed for the big bang to occur came from he said "well i don't know maybe they were always there".That was the reason for the question.

@fullywired:When i said creationism i meant the 7 day creation,the biblical account that skips over the evolutionary process.There are many ppl who believe in an intelligent designer and also believe in evolution,in which case creationism,in the aforementioned context,is not the same as intelligent design.The debate is about how it started,whether by chance or by 'god'.

The Lord God Jehovah spoke the Creation into existed at the fall of night preceding 23 October 404 BC..I know this because Bishop James Uusher said so!

Glad to see you're back. Are you gonna stay around this time, or is this just a visit?
Doug

rofl

Creation of 'our' Universe is from a super nova from a nearby Universe, which created a dense soup of elementals and a huge vibration, the Primordial Vibration. As the science of Cymatics prove, this Primordial Vibration eventually designs Order (Ma'at) from Chaos. Material as well as immaterial things are eventually created. God as the conscience of our Universe being one of them.

So, to me Vibration / Musick / the Word / Divine Utterance etc. etc is what designed everything that we know and understand in our Universe.

Too bad some people are simply unable to understand this point. Maybe they just ignore it because they have more political firepower when they equate them as being equal without taking time to 'differentiate'. I do not believe people are truly unable to 'differentiate' but I could be wrong.

It is not like that would make ID any more scientific but at least they could understand how some people actually view ID instead of repeating what Discover Institute claims it is as if they have a monopoly on the definition. They do not.

I beg to differ ,ID and creationism are the same ,relgious beliefs


fullywired

The is a theory from Jewish Mysticism called the Hallel Hapanui. My materials are not present at the moment so I have to work from memory. The basic idea is that when God was preparing to create the universe, it was necessary for him to create a place where he was not. The hallel hapanui is the place of nothingness where God was able to begin the creation of the universe. All things proceed from his creative power.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kA_axCUMP...MPcAM&hl=en

Just a visit, my current work keeps me too busy to do the research and preparation for my rebuttal posts...and if I can't do a good job, i would rather not do the job...

The following article discusses that concept and calls it 'chalal panui'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzimtzum

No, that isn't a theory. It's ridiculous, for several reasons. Are you sure it wasn't a religious wackjob that told you that?

Edit: wait, are you talking about the creation of the universe (which I've assumed in my comments above), or something else, like supernovae? If you are talking about supernovae, then I can explain more...

You mean the singularity of the big bang? Read the wikipedia entry on the big bang.

Again, check out the M-theory. It's brilliant stuff.

You keep saying "by chance". Natural selection doesn't work by chance.

And saying that god did it isn't an answer at all. It answers exactly nothing.

Sigh. That was a joke, right?
The universe has been around for about 13.7 billion years.
THERE IS A HUGE amount of evidence to support this. There is NONE to support the alternative crackpot view.
See:
http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Evidence_agai...recent_creation
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/03...lion-years-old/
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html

Oh. BTW, I'm a Pastafarian.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the world 16 and 1/2 years ago.
All Memories, things, and etc. from 'before that time' are lies!!! THey have been put there by the Noodly FSM to test your faith!!!

Besides- Evilutionists don't have any proof, they just confuse people with big words and stuff.
I DARE you to show me proof I'm wrong.
Besides- The FSM answers ALL OF MY PRAYERS. EVERY TIME.
Every time he answers my prayers with YES, NO, or MAYBE.
See?
Proof the world is only 16 and 1/2 years old:
IF Evilutionists were right, then the universe was created somethin like 20 billion years ago idk Im too lazy to lloook it up(and two lazy to use punctuation)
anyway if we start with 1 person 20 billion years ago, and they each live 1,000 years and have 100 children(MY BOOK says that people used to be able to do this, even though hte unvierse was created 16 and 1/2 years ago! Thats not a contradiction, its a PROPHESY they predicted that one day people will be able to live a long time because of medicine and stuff) Then by today we should have dead people all over the place! The entire world would be like made of dead poeople. Im not gonna show you the math because it is so obvious, just google it if you are too lazy.
See, told you evilutionists were wrong. Therefore im right duhhhh!

Sorry about that, had to.
Cheers,
SQLserver

Thank you, thank you ever so much! I can finally stop looking... you gave me the answer to everything!

All of this can be simply summarized. SOMETHING CAN BE CREATED OUT OF NOTHING. NOTHING IS IN FACT SOMETHING. GOD IS NOTHING BECAUSE HE IS EVERYWHERE AND NOWHERE ALL WISE ALL KNOWING. HE CAN EXIST BECAUSE HE SIMPLY IS, HE HAS NO START AND NO END. HE IS THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA. THE 1 AND THE 9 HE IS 19.

I lost you there.

Hey Ozman. I like your answer (and the fly in the ointment, too).

Lol that wasn't a joke you just misread what i said.I meant the belief had been around for centuries, not the universe.lol.I dont think even the nuttiest christian bible-wielder believes the universe is that young

Alpha and omega may be human limitations only. A neccesary framwork of mind so as to enable a basic understanding of the universe that we live in. The human mind if introduced to the concepts of eternity would.... I dont know..but it's clearly not allowed. Those are my thoughts.

the theory , the most likely ? is that this Universe originated from another. I can see that as possible.

Honestly , no one knows . If what you want is a beginning point and an end point , you'd find it easier to squeeze a lump of coal in your fist and make a diamond.

God , while I believe in God even though there is no proof of such anywhere , could be the ultimate I don't know answer.

it could all be some alien experiment as well .... we don't know.

Wow the 19. Sort of like the way 1+1 can equal 11 or in binary 1+1 can equal 10.

We might not know for sure, but we know more than that though. I suggest you watch that documentary on the M theory. Links are on my first post in this topic.

Well then, the question then is, if we and our universe are a result of another, how did the other come in to being.


Lets stick to established scientific facts. Which are, the universe before the big bang was a point of singularity, small things where everything was united as one. Something or someone caused the big bang, as a result time and space began, the early stages of the universe were a premordial hot soup of gas which then cooled and eventually the galaxies, planets, stars etc came in to being. There is no disputing this,as its proven by observations by Hubble, mathamatics, physics etc, its established fact, the rest are all theories at the moment, like you M theory and String theory.

Science can determine what caused the bigbang, therefore they assume it was just coincedence and by chance, why? why not the hand of God.

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together (singularity) and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe? (Qur'an, 21:30)

Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We come willingly." (Qur'an, 41:10-11)

The word used for smoke is Dukhan, meaning hot gaseous smoke. Exactly what the universe was after the big bang.


He Who created the seven heavens in layers. You will not find any discrepancy in the creation of the All-Merciful. Look again-do you see any gaps? Then look again and again. Your sight will return to you dazzled and exhausted! (Qur'an, 67:3-4)

He to Whom the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs. He does not have a son and He has no partner in the Kingdom. He created everything and determined it most exactly. (Qur'an, 25:2)

The balances established with the Big Bang, the instantaneous formation of the universe, are one of the proofs that the universe did not come into being by chance. According to the well-known Adelaide University professor of mathematical physics Paul Davies, if the rate of expansion that took place following the Big Bang had been just one in a billion billion parts different (1/1018), the universe could not have come into being.11 In his book A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking recognises this extraordinary precision in the universe's rate of expansion:

If the rate of expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have recollapsed before it ever reached its present size.

See the the balance, the exact nature and accuracy of god creation the Universe.

Because there is no evidence to suggest that god exists, nor is there any evidence that would suggest that god did it even if there was a god.

What are you on about? Why are you quoting random lines from the Qu'Ran out of context? Do you think that constitutes as evidence for anything?

And no, that's not how the universe was after the big bang.

No, that's not proof for anything, not even evidence.

Yes, if things were different, things would be different. It's a tired tautology, and it proves nothing.

lmbharry that is Your fly. I like it. To better explain the nineteen thing. I meant to say he is between the 1 and 9 meaning he is infinite becuase zero doesn't really count. 19 has a special value in Islam and that is why I mentioned it. Google, "Quran 19 mathematical" and you'll understand what I am talking about.

I posted the verses from the Quran because they describe the Big bang, singularity before it, and the expanding universe today. All mentioned 1400 yrs ago.

The universe after the big bang was a like a primary Nebula of hot smoke like gas, clearly observed by Hubble and this is established scientific fact fella. This matter cooled to form the universe as we know it today.

Of course, the exact nature of the universe and and according to Hawkings, " If the rate of expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have recollapsed before it ever reached its present size. ", things would be different, so different. So the exact nature of the expansion is perfect and in balance, just a little out and things would be different, you claiming this happened by chance.

The verse from the quran are not out of context and neither is the quran a book of science, but its authors refers to phenomena at a time in history, which was impossible to know and in line with modern established scientific facts.

They don't describe the big bang.

Gas (mainly hydrogen, a few percent helium) came several hundred million years after the big bang. And again, the Qu'Ran doesn't even talk about that.

But it's not by chance. That's how things happen. Your argument is like dropping a ball and saying "You know, if there was no gravity, that ball wouldn't have fallen. Therefore, god exists."

No, they don't. It's just a thick book which often mentions heaven and earth. Taking a few lines which clearly don't have anything to do with the big bang and claiming it is proof for god is ridiculous. Such claims fail systematically at so many levels that it's laughable.

Did you see the History Channels show on the end of the Universe ?

the universe was created when

1. Something exploded, and somehow randomly everything organized perfectly.

2. life was started when lightning struck a mud puddle
stuff came out of it. nematodes and stuff. turned into people.

3. universe will end with slayer reunion tour.

Hmmm really, then what is it describing, and when did you become and expert in Arabic. Please tell?

the fact the verse refer to a heavens and earth, meaning everything in the universe were united as one, is precisely what singularity was, the whole mass and the universe as one, then its was cleft assunder or unstitched from each other, the big bang, what follows if a what is like a primary nebula, it does not refer to the gases present etc, because the quran is not a book of science, its author is god and he oftern refer to phenomena which is beyond us or been established fact by science. The Universe after a short time from the big bang was just hot smoke mate, and the word used is literally describing hot gas precisely.

Your argument is in accordance to evolution too, is that if we kept on throwing a glass on the floor it would break, but if it kept happening for a long time, eventually, that glass, by chance and the elements around would come together and produce more glasses, by the time you know it, there are loads, is this possible, mathamatically and logically insance, hence so is evolution and anything that suggest it came in existence by chance.

Heaven and the earth when refered to by scriptures always refers to the universe all that is in existence what is in between. its just your lack of knowledge about such things, which makes sure that you cannot comprehend such matters, its beyond you.




No eloborate please.

This is a bunch of nonsense. This isn't what evolution postulates.

However, mathematically, your example is possible, it just takes longer time than the universe has lasted to happen, which means its never going to happen.

LOL Exactly, its impossible, a mathamaticall impossibility, just like it is for a protien cell to form, and be the right one and in sequence etc.

What on earth are you talking about?

It is not mathematically impossible for proteins to form. Proteins are formed everyday. You are severely misunderstand statistics

You should read Ian Musgrave's work. I seriously doubt you will however, considering you only read stuff that backup your position, based on nothing.

Same applies to you.

No it doesn't, because I read the much of Behe's work among others.

Except everything they have to contribute to the discussion is severely outdated and based on old statistical tools in regards to complexity.
What you read is not based on science whatsoever. Not based on analysis or reason.

Thats your assumption, i have read enough and researched enough to know that the complexity issue is haunting evolutionist and as much as they try and asnwer it, they dont. They go around other arguments like the maths one as mere statistics, when it clearly indicating that protiens , and the right type and etc to form the basis for life is impossible, and evolution suggest it all came by chance, which even more ridiculous.

It's irrelevant what it's describing, and bleeding obvious that it's not describing the big bang. Besides, it is impossible, as nobody knew anything about the universe back then.

Or it means that heaven and earth were united. Heaven being paradise.

And how can you say that the universe is not united today?

Precisely. It's a bronze age mythology book. Nothing factual about it.

No, it wasn't smoke. It was hydrogen and helium and a little lithium. And that only hundreds of millions of years after the big bang.

No, that made no sense at all.

It's beneath me to take bronze age myths literally, especially when it's blatantly obvious that they have nothing to do with what you're on about.

Its not haunting scientists. Its gotten to the point that its a non issue because its been disproved time after time again. Evolution is a fact in the scientific community, and it is a fact in life. Laypeople like you have no idea what is going on in the scientific community and are completely oblivious to it, so you rely on second hand sources that bias the information to such a degree that it is false.

Evolution doesn't discuss anything your talking about. Inform yourself and get an education in a college course like the rest of us. Then maybe you'll understand and stop coming on online forums trying to mislead the general public based on having zero evidence and zero-level education in regards to anything scientific. This means you hold no authority on the subject.

You obviously don't know anything about the big bang, the scientific method, evolution, logic or reason. You've demonstrated that beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt. Your boasting looks foolish.

No, it is not. At least in the scientific sense. It is a random guess.


Funny, as the only people who have ever told me the big bang was created from a piece of dust were Creationists.


Lol that's good.
Actually, one of the AiG articles on Evidence of a Young Earth states:

blah, blah, blah. They go on to claim that because all comets are still there, and they disintegrate, that if the world was so old there would be none left.
First of all, they forget about the Oort Cloud. When it is mentioned, they call it a fantasy of Evolutionists.
Then, you might mention that the Kupier Belt is plenty to replenish comets. As we've seen the Kupier belt, they have no answer.
THEN you mention that if you look at the comet with the shortest period, Encke's comet, with a period of only 3.3 years. Putting this together with the claim that "a comet will disintegrate completely within 50 to 60 revolutions of the solar system", we find that, using the Creationist method, the Universe is no more that two hundred years old.

So according to another bogus Creationist claim, the universe IS 200 years old!


Bravo, Ozi, Bravo.
Ozi- you are a great example of someone who can reconcile Science with your faith.
You see, there might be no evidence of a god, but that isn't the point of faith, is it?
As long as your faith doesn't conflict scientific evidence, it is the best possible type of faith someone could have. That's the definition of faith really; something that cannot currently be proven or disproven.

Cheers,
SQLserver

It is no more ridiculous than the idea that a magician in the sky created it.I have said it before ,if evolution was disproved tomorrow ,it would not strengthen the creationist view one wit,it would be a matter of replacing one "ridiculous "idea with another equally ridiculous idea


fullywired

i can prove god exists

but both sides will deny it yet logic is sound save one point. how does it start.
well scientists cant even prove the universe existed before big bang thus leaves a big ?

logically these are the best god id's i can think of [it doesnt reveal the start]
1 an alien [zealots forgot who they serve]

2 the universe [which is a paradox]
thus it breaks everyrule ergo [insert insanity]

OK we are all waiting


fullywired

A quantum probability function for a quark "particle/anti-particle pair" that became self-aware. Through the recognition, the probability collapsed, space formed, the anti-particle decayed into energy forming more space. This left room for additional functions to collapse - and the inflationary universe was spawned!

1st Edit: There's gotta be a probability associated with becoming self-aware. Maybe 10 exp(-43)? Is that about right?