Given that Jesus told his disciples to take swords with them when they traveled , (Luke 22:35-38) it seems that Jesus approved of being prepared for self-defense.

Given that the only event of a sword being used by one of His disciples resulted in Jesus actually putting an ear back on an attacker, it seems He did not approve of unnecessary use of weapons.

Perhaps it is partly to do with where I live, but I am totally against guns. In Australia, firearm possession is not a Right. If you want a gun, you have to apply for a licence and go through testing. I only know two people who own guns. One is my aunty/uncle and they live on a farm and use it for protection against wild animals (hunting is illegal in Australia). The other is a friend who is a trap-shooter (clay targets flung into the air) and only ever unpacks his rifle when he's at tournaments.

I am a pacifist by nature. Non-violence is my motto. If someone mugs me for my wallet, I give them my wallet (though thankfully it has not happened). Why risk your life for something as transitory as possessions? If someone breaks into your home, give them what they want. If they attacked me, then so be it. If they attacked my family...... only then would I consider action but I do not know what I would do (I hope I am never in a position to find out), but I would not use guns, even if I had access to them.

Will_1835 is right. Jesus taught non-violence. He taught not to resist an enemy. If someone strikes you on the cheek, turn the other cheek for him also (though I suppose you could argue that contextually it only refers to religious persecution, which Jesus was referring to primarily I think, but I think it would be an extreme twisting of words to reach that conclusion). Jesus taught us not to resist an evil man. That would include self-defence.

I would agree with Jesus.

~ Regards, PA

I would have to agree with IamsSon. Self defense is one thing but unnecessary use of weapons is another. As far as allowing someone to take your life and not choose self defense we have to consider that they are not just taking your life but taking a husband, a father, a son, a brother, or a friend away from many people. If you are female switch the genders Either way as Romans tells us what is a sin for one might not be a sin for another and the stronger believer should not tempt the weaker believer to do anything they consider a sin even if the stronger one does not. If the Spirit ever convicts me to not carry then it will become a sin for me. I know others do not consider if it is a sin or not and just do not out of choice and that is commendable too.

I simply can't think of any justified reason to carry or hurt someone else. There are always alternatives, and if there aren't any alternatives, it's probably too late to do much about it anyway.

I mean, I suppose I could come home and some maniac had my daughter tied up and was torturing her, I might consider plunging a steak knife into his back to get them away from her... but the reality is that it's more likely I'd win the Lottery than run up against this scenario. It's hardly even worth considering.

Actually... there is a picture of me on my profile here... trust me, this is a good story. It was taken about 6 weeks ago by a long-time friend of mine. My friend is an absolutely gun NUT. He's a cop, he loves his firearms.

About 30 minutes before that photo was taken, I'd popped by his home to take his daughter a b-day gift. I called a few times but no one answered. So I figured, Ok, he's in the garage, if I spot him in the garage I'll stop in and drop off the gift. Well, I pulled into the driveway after seeing him in the garage (this guy lives in a high density area, very very upper class beach community), turned my car off, opened the door and stood up, only to find him standing there in the dark with a 9mm with a laser pointed at my forehead. Nice huh? I didn't say a word and went home. He followed me home, and was taking pictures of me giving him a verbal lashing.

Guns make people paranoid often. Paranoia and guns rarely go well together. Gun freaks like my friend honestly scare me. HE'S a COP. He should know better. But what he did to me happens all too often, we're just lucky it didn't end in tragedy. I'll never go to his home unannounced ever again. It's driven a wedge in our 25 year friendship.

Side note? There hasnt' been a violent crime in his neighborhood in over 20 years.

Likewise if one takes the life of someone breaking into their house, they are killing a husband, brother, son, friend, father. One also needs to consider all those who will suffer, because one makes the chaice to kill a man who finds himself in a desparate situation....


As this topic is supposed to be religion-based. I have to ask you Clovis. As a Christian, how do you reconcile advocating violence and murder, yet still claim to adhere to the teachings of Jesus. This is sincerely an honest question. I am having a hard time understanding how murdering someone will show them how much you love them. And how much compassion you have for them. And forgiveness. I truly cannot figure it out. It seems a contradiction in my brain. Can you please explain it? From your religious/spiritual perspective?

(As this thread is religious in nature. If it were a secular thread, what could I dispute?)

Thank you.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." - Matthew 5:38-42

I know that there are cases where Jesus counseled them to carry weapons, such as what is said in Luke 22. It certainly appears then as if Jesus did acknowledge the need for protection. It is interesting though that the Matthew 5 passage on not resisting enemies is a speech given to the crowds and masses whereas the passage in Luke 22 is a private conversation said to the disciples themselves. An interesting contextual issue to ponder, I'll have to think about the implications of these differences.....

However, as a pacifist, I choose not to engage in violence of any kind, even in self defence. If someone hit me, I would ask them why they did so. If they hit me a second time, I would run away. As said before, I would only consider moving away from this if someone else were in danger and I was in a position to stop them from being assaulted, in which case it would be a matter of Loving our Neighbours by stopping violence on them. As I also said, I hope I'm never put in this position.

~ Regards, PA

Sitting back and enjoys tea on this one...

Pavot

With only a pen and Christ within her heart

I do have to wonder what anyone’s take is upon owning a Gun and striving to be in balance as a Christian, I have lived in and inner-city war zones where I had to lay my family down upon the floor hugging the carpet because of rivel gang warfare and in there heated battles unloading endless rounds of bullets in to out housing complex, incedecently it was an eight nine year old lady, my wife's great aunt only armed with a pen that removed the gang a feat of which a whole city of armed police seamed to repeatedly be un able to approach and do…she had no gun, she had a pen and Christ within her heart…Pavot

Good insight as to context of the passage. I still think that Jesus was setting-up the impulsive Peter. That's why not all the crowds, nor even the 12 armed themselves. They said "here are two swords. And Jesus said 'it is enough'". If Jesus was really telling his disciples that they should all have weapons, and by such, contradicting his whole message, why only 2 swords? Maybe I'm a Peter conspiracy theorist (or an exegete?), but I think 2 was enough, because they just needed one for ol' Pete to give Jesus an opportunity for a lesson. And on top of that, if supposidly Jesus was telling them that they should have weapons for self-defense, why condemn Peter for striking Malchus? Peter was defending Jesus from being illegally arrested.

As for being hit? Very good advice. I too am a pacifist. Which is one of the reasons why I think Jesus is so cool. I've heard Christians, however, tell me that if someone punched them, they would beat them till they were dead. Or shoot them in the head. They say that is Godly self-defense. I do not see how it is self-defense at all. I gun being used as defense from a fist? If someone punches you, you can try to talk to them. You could run. Shout for help. There are so many ways you can react, that do not involve striking them or shooting them. Again, back to civil peace-keeping training. We were taught many ways to take control of a aggressive civilian and restrain them. And it ends the situation, without striking them.

You're right, it is ... however, people like myself see lifestyle as a form of faith.

I never see anything good coming of doing any harm.

Historically, people of my faith HAVE gone to war, we have military folks who are members. Cornell University is known as the Fighting Quakers, after the Quaker Revolutionary War generals and enlisted. However, they have to constantly reflect on their purpose, their motivations, and seek guidance.

Most go to it with heavy and conflicted hearts, but for them, they feel what they are doing is necessary, but do feel the pain of it all.

I'm glad you finished your tea. A nice story. Thank you.

I love both of these points very much.

o

We all would like to live in a world where there is nothing but peace somehow your getting the idea that some of us like to kill. As a Pagan I hold the idea of peace in very high regard sadly we do not live in that world. I grew up in the streets myself defending myself for me it is a part of who I am. So is protecting my wife & those close to me. For those of you who do not see being able to defend yourself or those close to you then I am not sure what to tell you thats something you have to deal with on a personal level.



One last thing I wonder how many of you would blame your God when a family member or close friend gets killed & you could of stopped it yourself.

A plausible interpretation. It fits the facts and provides Jesus with a chance to once again teach the way of non-violence. Another (less plausible) interpretation that I have read is that when Jesus told them to buy a sword he was using irony to comment on the persecutions that would shortly follow, and that his disciples misunderstood him when they said "here, we have two swords", which prompted Jesus to put an end to the conversation with "It is enough" in exasperation at their misunderstanding his intentions.

Thanks for the information

~ PA

From my standpoint,I only believe in protecting those who mean much to you,whether it be family or friends.You could also protect someone who is a complete stranger to you.Material items can be replaced,therefore are not important enough to protect.

I do not care for guns,even when hunting.I'd rather give my fellow animal an even chance of survival...therefore I stalk my prey and only use a bow or some other weapon that does not ruin the chances of the animal's survival.I can,however,use a gun efficiently.

For self-protection (or for the protection of others),I use whatever I have handy (but no guns,as I do not own one).I do not go into any scenario with the intent to do massive amounts of harm to anyone (even in the act of protecting myself or someone else).I will only use my skills to subdue,humiliate,scare off,or incapacitate...and will not do any more than is necessary to stop my opponent from harming anyone.

In a perfect world, pacifism would be the way to go. However, this world is not perfect, and there are greater evils than killing a person. If I had to kill someone to stop him from committing an evil equal to or greater than that of killing another human being, I think I would do so.
How does that look in the real world? I plan on getting my concealed carry when I turn 21 and arming myself with at least one weapon. If someone broke into my house while I was there, I would confront them armed with a shotgun and tell them to leave. If I felt physically threatened, I would shoot them. If someone were threatening the life of someone else, I would shoot them. Probably the most important reason I will own firearms is the one I most hope to avoid. That is overthrowing my government should it be come tyrannical. And, no, I am not a member of any right wing militia group.

How is owning a gun and being ready to use it pro-active? I can think of nothing more Reactive than using a gun if you were under threat from violence. Being proactive would be working actively to get illegal guns out of circulation, educating children & young people about crime and violence and working with ex offenders (those lucky enough to survive the gun toting victims of their crime.)

This is a very interesting topic for me, I served for 9 years in the British Army and have worked for the past few years in the Youth Offending Team in Birmingham, where gun crime is becoming a massive problem.

The vast majority of intruders and criminals you will face, do not have your death, murder or harm on their minds at all, they want material things, generally it is to sell to buy drugs or drink, pay off debt, or in some rare occasions a gang related mission, the scary thing is they have exactly the same attitude as a lot of others here, they do not intend to harm anyone but are prepared to use force to defend themselves, fighting fire with fire is generally just a really stupid thing to do.

What? I mean really! What?

Thats just scary, and you're not even 21, your parents must be proud of ya.

Duck & Cover boy, stop drop & roll!

The simplest, and most direct, answer to this question is found in revelation, where christ leads the (War) hosts of heaven to earth to defeat Satan, the fallen angels, and the forsaken/lost who have been resurrected on earth.

He rides a white horse and has a sword in hand( if memory serves me correctly). So biblically, if the cause is just, jesus has a warlike side. This may disappoint some people who only want to see a one dimensional jesus, and dont acknowledge that he is part of the same entity who, at times, was filled with righteous anger in the old testament.

Apologies if this example has been given. I did not read all the posts (so much to read and write, so little time)

http://www.buchanan.org/pa-97-0818.html
Louisiana's new "shoot the carjacker" law, which says that a victim of a carjacking can shoot and kill the thief, and it's "case closed" as far as Louisiana is concerned. Just file a notch on the old Smith & Wesson.

And what if the "carjacker" is some tipsy tourist tapping on the car window to ask directions to Brennan's? In that case, you must show that you had a reasonable fear the fellow was trying to invade and steal your car, or you can be prosecuted for firing.

Coming a few years after the state's similar "shoot the burglar" law -- find a burglar in your home, and you can shoot him as a justifiable homicide -- the carjacker law confirms for some the observation that Louisiana is the only Mediterranean nation in North America.

But the new law is apparently not all that controversial. While journalists may see a law absolving citizens who shoot thieves as a reversion to frontier justice, the law passed Louisiana's House 93-3 and its Senate 34-0. The entire state appears to be behind it: black and white, Cajun Catholic and Bible Belt Christian, women and men, liberals and conservatives -- though carjackers were not polled.



i posted this for several reasons,showed even christians believed in the right to defend yourself with out prosecution(and it just happend to be on the 2 laws in louisiana i was talking about before).

im trying to understand some of the view points on this board,put aside the right to defend yourself,, how and why would you choose not to.is it fear of punishment in the after life? i agree 100% that just hurting someone is wrong,then you are a criminal forcing someone to defend themselves.but i cant understand how someone can put there life in someone elses hands,who for one in their actions are proving they have no value for life theirs or yours...why is your life less important then theirs?why should you not fight for you and your family if the situation arises.....
your living your life right you dont take advantage of other people our trying to raise your family with good morals and values whay wouldnt you want to defend those very people you work hard for everyday to protect,mentally, spirtually why is protecting them physically so wrong?

you might not agree on using firearms to protect but using a gun,bat,knife,sword,brick even your hands are all the same thing and can all have the same end result...do you really think god wouldnt forgive you for keeping your family safe?we are talking about the same god the flooded the world,and destroyed sodom and gamora arnt we? he killed thousands and it wasnt even self defence it was a terroist attack.a mass killing on people that he didnt like the way they were living....please explain that open accpetence of mass murder but defending my home and family is a sin?

The first thing to do when someone is breaking into your house is inform them in a clear and distinct voice that you are armed if it is at the moment they are entering. If they have already intruded one can only quickly assess the situation and make the quick decision of if they pose a deadly threat and then take subsequent action. No one said you have to shoot someone with spite just for breaking in since self defense should always be a last resort in my eyes.

Self defense is not murder in my eyes. It is not advocating violence but rather limiting the effects violence can have on myself and my family. Turning the other cheek is not the same as letting yourself be murdered or your wife be harmed in any way. Add in all your loved ones and innocent civilians who might also be hurt gravely by someone with deadly intentions. Myself personally I am the first to hear about situations and think some of the measures some used in self defense were premature and that the person might have murdered and got away with it at least from a legal standpoint. Either way did not Jesus say two swords would be enough? And back to book of Romans what is a sin for one person might not be a sin for another.

You might not agree with my views but I can only hope you understand them. I almost if not completely understand yours.

Is there some sacred knowledge that I will have magically bestowed on me about a year from now? Why does my age matter?
What about my post scares you?

Your avatar scares me ~_~ lolz j/k

being disabled and caring for a 92 year old in an area where it isn't unheard of to be broken into while asleep or watching tv ..... ... and not able to have the strength to defend one's self plus more often than not telling them to take what they want doesn't mean your life won't be taken ........

I'll feel safer with our guns. The alarm doesn't work and when they do go off in the neighborhood it's not like police rush anywhere .... hoods are long gone by then.

I'll stick to my dog being the alarm and a shot being the deterant showing I mean business. the next one is coming their way.

We have signs on our doors and windows stating such. you enter at your own risk unannounced .

This thread is not about Bible contradictions.




Presumptuous of you to think that....

BTW.....I did more violence (for the lack of a better way of putting it) as a Christian than I have as an Ex-Christian

Perhaps you have a point. But this could only be used in the context of war, and maybe only the war at the End of Days (if it happens). Or due to the symbolic nature of Revelation, it might even be the case that this is a reference to "spiritual warfare" with this passage being a reference to how Jesus will help us defeat Sin in our lives if we trust. Whatever the case, it does not refer to using guns in self-defense.

I believe there is a biblical basis for war. I'm not saying that war is inherently wrong. As a pacifist, I would not enlist in the army, but I would help out in non-violent ways if possible if war did start. As with my previous posts, I do honestly and earnestly pray that I am never put in this position.

I do not think that saying that Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek by necessity then means that Jesus was anti-war. But neither would I say that Jesus advocated war. If this prophecy in Revelation is literally fulfilled (and I'm not sure it will be in a literal sense), it is simply stating what will happen. Nothing more.

Just a thought or ten to consider

~ Regards, PA

praise the lord and pass the ammunition.

Then why did Jesus use Violence to Cleanse the Temple?

Sorry, perhaps I missed it last time I read that section, but I don't recall Jesus committing violence. From memory he overturned tables and scattered the coin, but I don't recall an act of violence. Though I suppose you could say that "violence" is present here in a more generic sense and so could refer to this incident, in which case I would have to refine my previous comment and say instead, "Jesus taught non-violence not to cause physical harm to other people". Sorry, I thought that was obvious in my post. My apologies.

All the best, Z

~ PA

i posted this earlier but it was mixed in with some gun facts so maybe it got over looked but im am trying to understand the very thought of not trying to preserve the life god gave you..

im trying to understand some of the view points on this board,put aside the right to defend yourself,, how and why would you choose not to.is it fear of punishment in the after life? i agree 100% that just hurting someone is wrong,then you are a criminal forcing someone to defend themselves.but i cant understand how someone can put there life in someone elses hands,who for one in their actions are proving they have no value for life theirs or yours...why is your life less important then theirs?

why should you not fight for you and your family if the situation arises.....

your living your life right you dont take advantage of other people our trying to raise your family with good morals and values whay wouldnt you want to defend those very people you work hard for everyday to protect,mentally, spirtually why is protecting them physically so wrong?

you might not agree on using firearms to protect but using a gun,bat,knife,sword,brick even your hands are all the same thing and can all have the same end result...do you really think god wouldnt forgive you for keeping your family safe?we are talking about the same god the flooded the world,and destroyed sodom and gamora arnt we? he killed thousands and it wasnt even self defence it was a terroist attack.(more or less)a mass killing of people that he didnt like the way they were living....please explain that open accpetence of mass murder but defending my home and family is a sin?

Law Encyclopedia: Vandalism

The intentional and malicious destruction of or damage to the property of another.

The intentional destruction of property is popularly referred to as vandalism. It includes behavior such as breaking windows, slashing tires, spray painting a wall with graffiti, and destroying a computer system through the use of a computer virus. Vandalism is a malicious act and may reflect personal ill will, although the perpetrators need not know their victim to commit vandalism. The recklessness of the act imputes both intent and malice.

Because the destruction of public and private property poses a threat to society, modern statutes make vandalism a crime. The penalties upon conviction may be a fine, a jail sentence, an order to pay for repairs or replacement, or all three. In addition, a person who commits vandalism may be sued in a civil tort action for damages so that the damaged property can be repaired or replaced.
SOURCE

At least in that case it was violence toward property.

I think you make a very good point, asc, as everyone else. Wonderful replies here. MMW, you're awesome .

Though I do not like guns (I prefer the bow actually), I see no problem in using them to defend yourself, if you are not the aggressor. I think in such cases, it is justified and an obligation to protect yourself and those around you. Violence should always be used as a last option when all else fails.

While 'turning the other cheek' is commendable and honorary, I also think it isn't always the right choice to 'be the better person' if it means people around you may be harmed and you have the ability to defend.

Yes,they can have the same end result...if that is what the user wishes...or if they're not in complete control of their actions.

One can use any weapon to subdue,humiliate,scare off,or incapacitate an opponent without doing extreme harm (or causing death).Minor injuries that can be healed with time and treatment are acceptable...and are all that is needed to do one of the four things that I mentioned.There is never a need to go any further.

The main problem is that most people will panic and let their emotions (or Epinephrine) get the better of them.

were not talking about training a dog,,im not trying to humiliate someone that breaks into my house and poses a huge threat to my family,,i would agree the sound of a shot gun chambering a round is enough to make anyone run,,any one that knows guns know that friggen sound,if they dont run after hearing that then they are a huge threat...or worse expect a false sence of tv drama by shooting at the arm or leg,,thats not even close to being realistic...some of the best marksmen in the world understress dont take that shot..they all practice for center mass or head shots,,never in the arm or leg,,el presedinte drill,,2 to the body 1 to the head not that arm not the leg,,thats the fastest way to stop a threat,,,but i degress im passed people not willing to do what ever it takes to defend ther house or the best way to doit,,,im more interested in the thought process of not wanting to do it at all,,
let it go by,or worse hope that the criminal only wants your suff,how can you leave the lives of your family into the hands of someone that has no morals and is desperate enought to envade your home in the first place..

QUOTE (brahman1888 @ May 1 2008, 02:05 PM)
That's actually a good question lol, I like it. I am personally opposed to the taking of life, any life, except maybe the hideous spider on the wall, or something. Hell, Buddhists don't even think its right to do that. For me though, I guess, it comes down to the individual, like the question of intent from the other posters. I am opposed to hunting, and the wanton slaying of animals (although if you do, that is your right, I just couldn't), and I am wary of, though not necessarily opposed to people owning guns. Look if you want to buy a pistol to protect your family, that's fine by me. On the other hand, if you want to buy a gloc or an ak-47, you are insane. This is the real problem. Nobody outside of law enforcement or military should be able to obtain automatic weapons. The movie Bowling For Columbine comes to mind.


really michale more really thats the guy you want on your side,

i own a glock21 and a ak47,they are both semi-automatic and im not insane...besides self defence wich they both are highly capable of doing as long as the person holding them knows what they are doing,,,they are dependable and sound weapons, its irrational fear and tv or yes even michale more deluded and self serving mockumentary that fuel statements like that...


a glock is not one gun,there are many diffrent calibers urban hip hop made the glock 9mm a popular name because thats all most of then rap about,but the gun itself is no more dangerouse that any other hand gun...stop buying into fear mongers about civilians owning weapons for self defence



I apologize for my rather harsh comments there, and I regret offending you, or anyone else, who may have read that and been irritated by it. The fact that you own those guns doesn't bother me really, it is your legal right to do so, and to each their own, seriously. I can't take any sort of moral high ground on this issue, because, well that makes me insane. I don't want to come off as some sort of zealot.

One thing I want to note though, is 'irrational fear'. That's part of our problem as a society, more so, in a way than guns themeselves. Does anybody know what our Terror Alert Level is right now? Make sure you lock all your doors because there's been a series of home invasions in the county. You may be next. Don't leave your IPOD jack plugged into your car, because thieves are breaking into cars when they see that, thinking they might be able to steal an ipod or a nav system. Fire someone on Friday, they are less likely to come in and kill everyone because they will have the weekend to cool off. Our culture makes people so paranoid, its just crazy. Every time you turn on the news they will be sure to tell you of some new threat to watch out for. Its no wonder why people in this country feel the need to own guns for protection, because, well, everyone is out to get you haha. And of course, we are hyptnotized by the violence in the media. Its a rather viscious cycle.

In one Michael Moore film, I can't remember now, whether it was Sicko or Bowling For Columbine, and he was in Canada, talking to people there. He was shocked to find out that most of them didn't own guns, and, get this, left their doors unlocked when they weren't in the house. What a novel idea. Is it any wonder they have a hell of a lot less crime than we do? They're not so paranoid.





I agree with this completely!

Well besides the nifty quote above I have a serious question.

Now I am not making a biblical case for this but true Jesus teaches love. There is no greater love than to give your life for another. Now we are past that what about love for you and your family? Are you not to love them? How is letting someone take your life or one of your family members life or even an innocent citizen under deadly attack...what about the love for them? Would not that love for them compell you to stop someone wanting to harm them? Letting someone die at the hands of a murder is senseless. We are responsible for our choices and if someone wants to pose a deadly threat to me or my family then they made their choice. My choice is to love myself and family and eliminate the threat. Guns, knives, bigger knives, clubs, hammers, fists, and kicks...I am helping. For that is real love too.

You can do that without the weapons, you just have to choose to. It's a tough concept to wrangle, but it can be done.

The real love is to spare everyone's lives. Always.

Someone attacks you walking down the street sometimes there is no choice you can't talk your way of of everything.

live by the sword die by the sword.

worked fine for the samurai. they used seppuku to end vengence [the blood is on the victims hands] yet westerners see it as barbaric.

yeah and the slavery bit in revalations is the definition of monarchy those who keep servants are "kept" by servants.

I think you mistake non-action, and non-violence.

1. If I'm walking down the street and someone out of the blue attacks me (and in a previous post, I described how this happened to me for real), there is no way I'm going to be in a postion to grab a firearm. I know it, I've been there.

2. That does not mean that I cannot kick, scream, flail and do everything possible to get away. And honestly, that's all it took to get my attacker off of me. If he really wanted to do more, a firearm STILL wouldn't have helped.

Non-violence doesn't mean you let people attack you while you lie there and do nothing.

Sorry hun I guess I missed that post.....

I'll keep my guns and you can keep your god.

The Gospel of John gives the most detailed account of the event.

"When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the Temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said: 'Get out of here.' (John 2:13-16)

he whipped them all out. then over turned the tables.

He used a whip to drive cattle and sheep, that's to be expected... cattle and sheep aren't all that bright, they need a little encouragement to get themselves goin'. LOL. Whips don't hurt cattle or sheep, their hides are tough... whips when used correctly startle them, not hurt them.

you think people are just going to leave their money behind because some guy yells at them ? knocks over a table ??? don't think so.

The whole verse reads as follows.



When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"


The verse never said he hit a person but it doesn't say that he didn't either so we can not say for sure.

That's the point I was getting at. In general, I read that as driving out the animals (both sheep and cattle) and creating chaos... I always envisioned it as a small riot of sorts.

I could see the cattle , no doubt . but being logical.. no one is going to just leave their money behind because someone is yelling at them.

people were sitting at those tables .and to put his hands on to scatter their money empty handed would have gotten him at the very least beat up , but he had to logically have been holding up the whip to the money changers . At the very least as a threat to get them to leave without their dough and with him unscathed by touching it and tossing it.

it's just logical. of course no one wants to see jesus as such ,,, but think about it. it only makes sense.

Like all stories in the Bible, they're incomplete and up for interpretation. There is no logical explanation without more information, which no one has.

When someone tips your money table over in a public place jammed with people, the first reaction is to drop to your knees and pick it up before someone else does. Not beat that person up.