http://seminars.torontoghosts.org/blog/ind..._in_connecticut

Arguments from the Glatzels and others...

Agreed. Sociopathic murderers are the best at keeping the wool over everyone's eyes.. including their own family members (spouses most of all).. Look at BTK, Dahmer.. etc,.
Something tells me the Lutzes were first brought into this naive, until later were convinced that it would all be ok, just an exaggeration here or there and everything would turn out well. Pure speculation, but it's the only thing that makes any sense to me.

I remember the Lutzes in an interview where Mrs. Lutze stated that they were "experimenting" in trans-mediation. She thought that this could have very well made them more succeptable to seeing or experiencing the phenomenon..
Thought that was interesting..

Well, If you personally went to the house in question & personally experienced the blood coming down the walls, lion statue coming to life, etc,. then you may have a bit more weight on your comment. However, if not, & I doubt, then your op doesn't hold any more water than the rest of us here- despite whatever generation.
That being said, now no one is questioning or doubting that a massacre occurred there. What is being questioned here is the validity of the (paranormal) claims by the Lutze family. I question the extent of the claim itself. I have reasons to think (as many do) that it was purely exaggeration by the Lutzes, initiated by the Warrens.
Another thing, I don't see how calling a priest to a house to bless it makes any claim more valid. Especially, when the fact is that same priest DENIED experiencing anything paranormal in that house in court. Maybe he was threatened, was intimidated? who knows.. I just know he denied it.

Mmmm I love debates

But how does explaining or at least postulating a trigger mechanism for a phenomenon make that phenomenon less genuine?

Another thing Hun is the haunting started the first day while they moved in. I can relate to blood on the walls, growls, odors, and horrible illusions. This case will never be validated or agreed upon. Put aside the Warrens for a minute, this was a classic demonic haunting. The sad part is the fact it took place in the 70's when these things were unheard of, and it became a nightmare. I honestly believe the Lutz's. I mean they up and left in exactly 28 days and stayed with Kathy's Mom. That is when she took on the appearance of an old lady and that is when the exorcism took place. Also, lets not forget the Demonic followed them to California and it took another 2 years to get rid of it, then they divorced. I cant speak for the Priest or anyone else, except I feel the Lutz's were honest. As I said, even the son still discusses some of the horrid activity. Lastly alot of things happened before they contacted the Warrens, the Warrens didnt call them. THey had a Priest bless the house because they didnt know it would make things so much worse. JN

Only around two percent of Roman Catholic priests were even suspected of child molestation. So by your own reasoning, don't 98 percent of priests tell the truth? <g>



It's worth noting that death bed statements are almost invariably regarded by courts of law as truthful statements of fact, at least as the testator sincerely believes that fact to be. I can't even bring to mind a single exception.

Because I wouldn't/don't doubt the fact that *maybe they did experience a few things there-- considering the house's history.
My issue is and always has been the Warrens. Not the family.

Worth noting in your eyes, just because they are truthful by courts of law doesn't mean it is factual. I mean look at OJ Simpson being freed of all charges, and are you telling me he happen to be...innocent? Yet, court of law.

Also, I am not noting just Roman Catholics, I am noting all those affiliated with preaching and the likes. Just in my area alone we had a few brought into public spotlight for it, and a man in my small town for child pornography.

Just because they preach the words of God and do "Holy" things don't make them superhuman....they have flaws, they have vices..don't think they dont.

I agree. So many liars stated that Kathy said this, George said that etc.. PLUS How many books were written on this case, the Warrens and Lutz's? TOO MANY...It was the 70's, so there was no technology to prove who said what...JN

But the exorcist came out in 1973, two years prior to the Lutz's little fiasco....That actually drove American in a frenzy for the paranormal based on a Psychology paper written my my Psy Professor back in the early 80's.

Apparently they were or did experience something in order to contact the Warrens.. I am NOT denying that. I question the intentions of the Warrens & the extent of the claims.. How many times did the Warrens actually investigate homes with such horrible tragic pasts? Probably none to that extent & unlikely such a tragedy so recent. I think (speculate again) that they knew with the Lutzes complaints, plus the history of the house, to the Warrens would be just the right ingredients... dollar signs-- book first, then possibly a movie... mmm. I can't seem to get past this.

Thanks! So here was a veteran New York City street cop/sergeant who not only thought very highly of the Warrens but who also reported his own multiple paranormal/demonic experiences very much compatible with their own.

Ahem....worked for the same police force that many "mob affiliated" cops worked for. A lot of cops who were "paid off" for various whatever reasons. The fact he was a veteran cop doesn't mean much considering those days.

Two highway state troopers witnessed a UFO, believe them?

I am a Decorated Military Veteran with a Purple Heart and various awards for my campaign in Iraq.....so that gives me credibility?.....Don't forget I am former law enforcement!

Well, OTR, you have to question his agenda too. He just happened to KNOW this couple and believed them, took advantage of this and shot for his own right... a book(S) of his own..

With such a big story who wouldn't want to make a dollar from it if they very well could.

Exactly Sunni...Hell, back in the day I woulda ate that crap up myself. However I wasn't even a glimmer in my dads eye at that point in time lol.

lol, I hear ya.

IMO, the drugs don't cause the psychopathic behavior. Most people with undiagnosed mental disorders turn to self medication through drugs, alcohol, etc. Sometimes drug use is due to mental illness, and in those cases the drugs don't prevent the sufferer from acting on the voices he/she hears, but they don't cause it. For the real story, and the 911 call transcript, read this link:
Crime Library

As you said, in your opinion.....but it caused someone to kill, or helped in that regard.

Correct SomeOldLady. Normally its said that when someone plans a murder, its already his mindset. They dont need drugs, people kill people every day. I feel Ron was either influenced or possessed, thats the only thing that makes sense considering that house and land. The Lutz's discussed whether they should move in or not, and decided it was ok, as no one knew it was haunted at the time. If it happened these days, it could be said they moved in for money and a story. But back in the 70's, no way. Plus they up and left, who does that? I know first hand that Demonics follow people, but back then no one did. By the time they moved to Kathy's mother's home, it followed and again in CA..Its a sad story, and so many deaths and horror. JN

Yeah, influenced by drugs...so i guess a small portion of your post is correct. Considering the house and land? Care to elaborate...

How can you be so certain with your comment, "But back in the 70's, no way."

"They up and left, who does that?" Smart people, or someone who can't afford to stay in a house they couldn't afford in the first place.

This is the story, and there were alot of investigators involved and Priests..Amazingly sad story


http://www.warrens.net/amityville.html

Isn't that story extremely biased, being on the Warren's site?

BTW, did anyone see my previous post regarding the ongoing feud of the Glatzels?

Extremely biased, fyi

I did, and found it to be most interesting! Thank you for posting it!

I also liked the letter that CryWolf posted a link to, the one that ripped apart the Warrens story on their website.
I've yet to see any evidence come from any Amityville investigation, whether it be the Warren's or anyone else's.

I wouldnt call it biased, as that is the story I've known all along and the way George explained it. The one thing I didnt know is why George and was afraid Kaplan, and then the Warrens were one of many investigators that arrived at the house, but by then the family had fled. There were Priests, investigators, and thanks to a Cop, the media. It didnt matter who was there at that point because the Lutz's were at Kathys mothers home. JN

Um... how can it not be biased when it is obviously from the Warren's viewpoint and is all hearsay and based on their viewpoint. No testimony from any outsiders. Just the Warrens description of things. Very suspect.

This confuses me:

Ronald DeFeos is/was in prison, not dead.

Yes, & very interesting.

I have to seriously lMAO to Lorraine feeling Ronald's spirit on the third floor.

I know he's in prison, I meant George. Many folks here quoted words from that site, so thats why I posted it. That is their account and the site and photos are very old. Also people think that the Warrens just showed up with the media. If it werent for that cop there wouldnt have been the media frenzy. The Warrens are the kind of people that people love to hate. There is testimony from the Priest, Kaplan and TV and the courts. But, to each their own. I believe there was a serious Demonic haunting when DeFeo's lived there. Once the family was killed, the Demonic infestatation remained, and as I said it continued to horrify them no matter where they moved. Here are interviews with George and his account of issues, plus the remake of the movie...



http://www.movieweb.com/news/75/7475.php

I don't think the Warrens showed up with the media.. I think that once they seen there could have been possible money making in the exposure-- Lutze's Claims they took the media there..

just clarifying ..

and again, I don't think the Warrens started out bad, not saying they are bad.. but I do think that over time money began to poison a lot of their work & intentions.

*sp

Sorry, JN. I wasn't talking about George at all. I was pointing out that Lorraine claimed to encounter Ronald Defeo's horrifying spirit on the third floor. Ronald Defeo was, at that time, in prison. I put the quote up too.

LOL Ohhh ok. Ron was also the father's name, who was also murdered so I assume that is what Lorraine was referring to...JN

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh....I see, I see AND I respect your opinions, but a 'Doubting Thomas' you must be? The reason I commented about the priest being called in was only to show that the Warrens were called in after he couldn't do much of anything. In any event it can almost aways be said the person might have lied, etc. I am merely giving you what I know to be true. Sometimes people/posters just KNOW things. I understand this is a discussion ~ I have told you what I KNOW to be true.

Thing is, in the 70's Demonic hauntings were swept under the rug, I think. People like Lorraine and the late Ed IMO helped a great deal of people. They rarely charge, because most folks with hauntings are devastated, sick and at wits end, and usually out of work or losing their minds. Money is not an issue for those who devote their lives to helping people. You figure they had been doing this years and years. That was their calling. My Demonologist didnt charge either for TWO long, horrible exorcisms but people say HE is in it for the money. All he wanted IF I could afford it was gas money. They dont use vehicles like TAPS LOL so they rent vehicles, to avoid the media. IMO you cant put a price on peace of mind. All these folks give people their lives and homes back, and that is priceless..OMG I sound like a MasterCard commercial...LOL..JN

Well said, but as I said the Warrens do not charge for their investigations.

You are correct, unless they had to travel a long distance. No the Lutz's didnt bring the media the police did. BY the time they went to investigate, the Lutz's fled to Kathy's mothers place. So it doesnt matter as I said, who was there, the family was out of there. JN

You haven't said anything that anyone else hadn't already said. Hence, Why I was asking you if you were witness to any of the events personally.

What I know is what's on the transcript by the priest, in question here. He blatantly denied hearing this voice, or witnessing any other odd experiences. I didn't get that from any biased site, but looking over that in transcripts. Granted, it's been early last year. & besides, those things don't change with the times.
Doubting Thomas, yes, I have my doubts. Again, my doubts are with the original intentions of the Warrens here. I sincerely don't believe that that family's well being was genuinely considered. Only their paranormal troubles were considered for just a moment, and then exploited, and still is apparently.

It's 2008 and we're still talking about it.

Thank you...I really don't know how a person is supposed to prove an opinion, but I wanted to try, lol.

Fair enough! Hmmmmmmmmm...so maybe, as some have said, the priest did lie! in court perhaps? Well, Shankpin, I understood what/why you were asking what you did, but therein lies the problem with things that happen in the past. WE weren't there. I also know others have said the same things, but I know what I know & unfortunately that's really all I have for an argument at this time. I was trying to share information I happen to have & squelch some misconceptions I'd read here. Debating, discussing, questioning, etc. are all fine and good, but when a fact is stated, and people say they don't believe it, or it came from a biased site, what recourse is there?

It doesn't appear so. The quote goes, "On the third floor, Lorraine clairvoyantly encountered Ronald DeFeo. This encounter was so awful, and he was so sinister, that she felt there was absolutely nothing she could do to help--or eject--his spirit from the house."

I definitely think they mean the murderer as he was the sinister one. The father was abusive, I understand, but I am positive they are talking about the murderer. I also remember reading about this elsewhere where it went on at lengths about this sinister person being the murderer.

And just a note to Phantazsa: You said you KNOW to be true. Which I guess, is misleading to many of us in that it sounds like you have firsthand knowledge, which is much, much different from an opinion or belief. Knowledge is a lot closer to fact than it is opinion. Just wanted to explain why it doesn't make sense to some of use. I don't believe Shankpin was trying to be difficult, but the way your statement read made it sound like you had this insider knowledge.

What fact? Sorry I'm confused as to what fact. Are you referring to what went on in the investigation?

A biased site is The Warrens. Biased based on they were there and whatever story they say, those who are pro-amityville will follow. Why?....because they were there. You all have it in your minds that these people can do no wrong, and what you hear is fact but yet you contradict yourselves by stating nobody knows because we weren't there or we get our information from some jank site.

People have argued the call came from Ron

It was shown via transcript it came from Joseph Yewitt or whatever his name was.

Yet, people still argue it came from Ron....
---why? When that was the official transcript.

Anyone happen to read the last paragraph on the amityville page on the warrens site where she said........they showed up with a channel 5 news anchorman? This is the warrens. So um.....why? They could have kept the case tight lipped even if the cops for whatever reason informed the media. However, why would the cops inform the media for a haunting?

You keep repeating that you KNOW things.. PLEASE, don't keep us in the dark here. SPIT OUT THE FACTS.. I'm waiting...

I have all night.

And what misconceptions have you tried to clear up? I'm also trying to clear up the misconception that the Warrens are genuine, but are, in fact, money hungry people.. so I guess we all are trying to clear up something here.


well, you can easily find the real documents online.. but the Warrens site isn't considered an unbiased source. go figure that one.. mm.

Don't worry it about Sunni, for real. It will be never ending and you have better things to do than talk to brick walls.

O I'm just waiting patiently on the facts.. :}

lol, silly goose, their opinions are facts

This is unfortunately a sad case which over the years has grown arms, legs and some cute pointy teeth. We can argue round in circles but with no new evidence will get no where. Obviously some believe and some don't. I can't comment as I have never been there. If what had happened to the Lutz family is true there would still be a presence at the site.

Just because the Warrens involved the media does not mean thier intentions were purely financial. They had perhaps found a phenomena that they thought they could prove on television. Can you imagine how that would change our society if someone could get a powerful spirit/demon/entity to do it's thing on national television? Like andy scientist they want thier discoveries to be seen.

So if you live nearby I would say the best answer would be to get a tent and camp out at the site as it should be rather lively.

Well said my friend, and finally the voice of reason. Ya cant win or lose by debating over and over again. Yes I believe the Warren's broke ground with that case. I mean WHO heard of demons back then? It is what it is, and yes its sad for everyone involved..<I bow to the Lord Storm> LOL...JN