Some people are so desperate to believe they will buy anything.

If anyone would know some truth to it, it would be those kids.. Nevermind that.

Sigh.... here is a brick wall [] aka pro amityville--------- Here is (Logic) []


Nothing like talking to a brick wall....

C.W. & Shankpin... don't let them get the best of you or get sucked into arguments. Ignore them or report them. Some people just wish to ignore the facts about things.

pluto.. It's all good.

I tried the link over there to the son's story but it didn't take me to the story.
I'd like to read it. I've always wondered what the children's perspective on the Amityville story was.

--------------------------------------------------------------

~~~drags up a soapbox and climbs up on it~~~

------Now I would like to address the 70's issue-----(I hope it doesn't get me banned)

I Graduated class of 78... Just so you know that I'm speaking from actually living in America during that time period.

There is a big difference between what was in the mainstream media and what we citizens actually knew and/or believed in.

Just because the media didn't carry stories of demons and evil spirits does not mean that the average American bear were totally ignorant of it.

I don't know who raised you all nor where you was raised, but region seems to have something to with what was common belief and/or knowledge. From my experience with meeting folks during that time of my life, it was apparent that not all Folks shared the same isms of us southerners.

Geeze... I'm just so miffed at the blanketed statements about the 70's... we had as many legends and lores and beliefs in things as at anytime in history, it's just the media focused on other matters and the air waves were geared towards wholesome family entertainment.

If you posted a hundred links to websites or titles of books stating that in the 70's people didn't know about demons or spirits, I would have to say that the authors of that nonsense are narrow minded snobs.

I was raised in the rural south and it was common knowledge that places could be haunted and people could be personally haunted and even families could be haunted. I knew of a few people that was personally haunted.

The subject of Demons wasn't unknown to us. We were fully aware of them from Sunday school and from the secular stories of people who knew someone that knew someone that had experienced a demonic haunting. It was a rare situation to hear about. Demons were rarely spoke of, perhaps out of fear of bringing them to our doorstep... Ghosts and spirits of passed relatives were spoke of quite often. Most of us had stories of personal experiences to relate.

In the region where I was raised, we dealt with the supernatural (as we called it way back then) on a more even basis without the fluff and drama. The supernatural was a part of life which sometimes required attention to resolve but most of the time it was mysterious stuff that happened as a matter of course. Normally there was logical explanations for issues that arose, don't underestimate the power of coincidence and yet there were times that one was left scratching their head in wonder.

Don't sell 'average 70's bear' short on what knowledge we had way-back-when... The Snobs may have thought their narrow opinions & educations were the biggest resource of knowledge, but they were wrong... There's not too terribly much that's new today in the paranormal field that we weren't aware of as common knowledge back then... yes even before the "Exorcist" movie. We didn't have knowledge of the 'gadgets' that you all do today. If we had of, you can bet that some of us high school kids would have been out scanning the neighborhoods and graveyards, (with me in the lead... lol)

This is just my opinion expressed from my personal experience of the 70's... It in no way reflects the personal opinions of everyone who was alive in the 70's.

~climbs down off soap box and runs for cover~

By all means. They not only should be, they must be.

But the Roman Catholic Church has the advantage of having a good number of priests who are also medical doctors and psychiatrists. (Especially among the Jesuit Order.)

I've never understood why people use report buttons like that. The only complaint I've ever filed, and NOT on this list, was against a poster who was (and most likely still remains) an arch-Anti-Semite and who seemed to be on the verge of taking over the board. And even that complaint was part of a personal email to the moderator, rather than just poking the report button. (As it turned out the moderator had banned the guy around six hours before receiving my message.)

Oh, people love hitting the report button, especially on these threads. Usually when their back is against the wall and we keep drilling and drilling for valuable authentic information, they will pick apart posts and use that as a means for the temperment to cool off.

I was reported for telling someone who refused to understand what I was saying to do constructive research on this thread before they get lost in translation.

Yes, you're right, Wolfie, and at the time, the Jesus Freak Movement was in full swing, too, and performing exorcisms was the thing to do on Friday nights among the "serious" Protestant Holy Rollers (I don't know what the Catholics were doing then). For the churchy or the ghosty, it was as well known and exploding in popularity in the 70's. Pretty much just Joe Normal might have missed it beyond the movie screen.... and still does. There are millions out there who still don't pay this sort of thing any attention at all. This is the birth of the present day/still ongoing "deliverance" ministry. Like everything else, it has it's upside and it's downside.

I lived those years, was a teenaged one of those churchy's (graduated high school in 77), and there was so much supposed expertise about demons based on nothing but supposed insight, that books like the Amityville Horror were scarfed up and read by people wanting to understand as if they were verbatim fact about EVIL Incarnate.

Well, maybe it was and maybe it worked, because I was one of many who fell away from that hype and hysteria and began exploring the world for what I could actually see and observe and prove and dumped the rest.

That there would be after-effects from the slaughter of that family by a psychopathic, drug addicted loser and ingrate which might have troubled the next to move in to a degree, I can believe. But many of the facts in the book cannot be supported by the facts in real life, and there is no getting around that.

To *ME*, the book is entertainment at best. The real story might be interesting, but it isn't going to match up with that tripe. It is like my Mom told me as a kid, if you're gonna lie down with dogs, you'll get up with fleas. It stains the credibility the Warrens may ever have had with me. It just does. They have fleas, which doesn't prove they're the dogs in this, but they were sleeping with 'em. It sure didn't damage their wallets, either, which is at the root of most motives to go along with things. Money, sense of power, and emotionalism/well meant enthusiasm. Same as those who stirred it all up in the churchy circles to "save" people and feel like enlightened Special Ones.

It's all about the show, mon. The show just keeps going on, though the faces and subtitles change... or the players get old.

JMO,
NS

LOL D...This story is multi faceted. There are twists and turns like no other story. It boils down to opinions of the Warrens. People either love and support them, or hate them and think they did everything for the money. Problem is, there is no common ground here. Everyone thinks their right, and the others are wrong. We cant change anyone's mind, or make them believers, so its a exercise in futility. Things are taken out of context constantly. One sentence can set off a heated argument and for what? None of this is worth it..There are hundreds of web sites about this haunting, some valid some BS, and people will believe what they will, regardless of what others say. I have my thoughts on this, and every other individual does as well and we are entitled to them. I see no reason to continue the debate because it doesnt work, as egos get in the way, and things are said that shouldnt be to fellow posters, by fellow posters. In any case, I am done with this. Its my favorite haunting and I want it to stay that way. Thanks..JN

Good post NS, I actually just read a very informative article on the Jesus Freak Movement not even a few hours ago. For you to say that is uplifting. For someone who actually lived in those times to post that, is awesome! Good post...

What did people do before Jesus? Surely there were demons before the time of Christ and Christianity.
Demons have existed before the dawn of man right? Or are they a construct of man to explain odd occurrences?

People lived I guess?

NS proves my point about what a person is exposed too in regards to regions and cultures.
Where I was raised we wasn't tuned-in to the full scale aspects of the culture movements that happened 'before' our time. We had bigger worries to deal with...

This is remarkable... does most everyone believe that everyone who lived in a particular 'time' celebrated and exploited movements of culture life and attitudes that some of us never heard of?
Remarkable... talk about stereo typing...


I'm with JN... I'm out of this thread!

Yes you can say that JN but when I read stuff written by the Warrens like what I posted earlier, about Lorraine meeting up with Ronald's spirit in the hallway, it casts HUGE piles of doubt on the validity of this story all around. There are actually many holes in their story, and a lot of it by their own writings. Its just harder for someone like me to believe it after that. I do understand however, that this is your favorite story and it probably isn't a very nice feeling to know that you may have been duped. I had the book when I was younger, rereading it probably a total of 15 times, maybe more. I loved it. Good book. However, things started not adding up once I grew up and became more cynical.

Once someone's credibility is shot, its pretty hard to make a comeback.

Very true, good post.

Worry is relative. There were pockets of ideologies and ideas and a lot more interest in things that were less talked about in earlier years, perhaps as an out-take of the 60's rebellion themes defying the more family oriented 50's. There was also an explosion of paperbacks suddenly being published about reincarnation and tarot and anything like that to cater to the interest. Few are classics today, most are drivel, but they sold at the time. It was new and interesting.



Does everyone believe only their own experiences were true of the time? It seems so. At 17 and 18 I didn't know what I know now about the 60's or 70's elsewhere, but I learned more in college and from reading and talking to people on forums like this, without worrying if their views differed from mine.



Not sure I understand your attitude or words, here. I have every right to have lived my life and drawn my conclusions of the people who affected me then. In their zeal, one night when I got dragged along to yet another prayer meeting, when they had no other big idea to do the prayer warrior thing about, they opted to force me to deal with an exorcism, since they'd supposedly all done it already. They exorcised ME, a kid of then maybe 13 or 14 years, without my consent or desire or any demonstrated need or abnormality.

Overzealous twits is what they were, and unscriptural to boot. It was wrong, and it damaged me for many years, perhaps still. They had no business doing that and were scary and they injured me as well, all in the Name of Jesus, whom I actually loved then as enthusiastically as anyone.

You can know a tree only by it's fruits. The fruits of that were evil. I call it as it was. But, it doesn't mean every Spirit Filled Methodist out there is the same as that group was. But, it does show that knowledge of the idea (at least) of exorcisms and demons was actually alive and well in currents of the time. Let's see, I was 13 or 14, born in 59... 72 or 73 is when this occurred, and that group had been going for a while, then. More than a year, and around 50 or so members who met apart from the regular church meetings to do their thing. My parents fortunately never made me go back after that, to the supposed simple bible study and prayer meeting. But, we went to Church always.

I won't be mushy mouthed about it. PC is for people who want you to validate their preferred ideas, or at least let them go on believing they hold the truth.

None of us do.

And if humans are involved in it, it is certain to have Issues no matter one's best intentions.



Sorry to hear it. I'm just telling what *I* know, while reading what others know and was encouraged when I read later after responding to CryWolf that you spoke up about your experiences as a person nearly my age. You confirmed that there was common knowledge among the people in your area of supernatural things.

This thread was about Ms Warren being sued for possibly being wrong in the past, and to that end, the point of me speaking up is that it is making a non-expert fit on a pedestal and giving up our own obligation to use our own heads which led to that tragedy, not her, or Ed, IMO. That nut's family knew him better than any psychic, real or imagined, and it is a little late now to see a chance for a buck and sue about it.

Rather like the pedestal installed zealots who exorcised my faith into the gutter and terror, in the name of their idea of Jesus. Bit late, now, and not anyone's issue but my own and God's, methinks. All things work for our good, the Bible says, if we love God, and I still do. So, who are they.... and really, who are you... or me?

Dust in the wind,
NS

Oh, how I have loved reading this thread!!!!
Nile your post to Wolfie was excellent, and D's soapbox post was too!! You both made excellent points!!!!

I don't love and support the Warren's or hate them, I don't even know them. I just find them well,... mistaken. IMO of course.

- Snip -

No

This is the full article on interview with Lutze's son, this link should work Hopefully:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati...ityville08.html

Well, it was a great movie, like Rosemary's baby, Carrie, Helter Skelter and other horror flicks I recall. For years, Hollywood kept using bits and pieces of it to come up with new versions to scare us and further put demons and evil to the forefront of our minds.

And as they work less on scaring us...end in the headlines more often, too, I guess, but of course one cannot infer that people are losing the ability to differentiate reality from fantasy, so let's decide I didn't say that.

kthxby

NS

edited to add: interesting read, Shankpin. The show goes on, the players just get older .

------------------

NS:
I'm sorry to hear what you went through as a teen. I can't imagine the chaos you must've felt during and after such a horrible experience. I'm glad you were able to put it in the past and go on with your life. I admire you for that.

You're right about what the thread is about, and I agree with you...

Matters-a-fact, NS, you and I are in agreement on the ideologies varying from area to area.

I apologize if I came off a bit harsh.

-------------------

Jennie:
Thank ya much. I agree with you about this thread.
I'll try not to ruin JN's favorite ghost story too much.

-------------------

CW:


-------------------

Shankpin:
Thanks so much for the link. That's interesting what the son had to say. I wonder why The step son referred to George in the present tense.
Didn't George die last year or so? or did the interview take place before George died?

I'm starting to get the players confused after 30+ years of this... lol

-------------------

8-O i think i have heard of this family (Warrens) they are known to be on Discovery Channels "Haunting" sometimes/ Is it the same Warren or a different one?

Thank you for hearing me and coming back. I had zero intention to offend anyone, nor to seem to mock their experiences, just express mine into the mix. Those were wierd years to grow up in, though I don't know if kids today don't have it worse ...

I'm happy to be exactly my age today LOL.

BTW, I noticed that Rosemary's Baby came out in 68 as a movie, 67 as a novel, which is another major cultural marker of occultic concerns and fears already established in the minds of the mainstream prior to AH in what...72? 73?. I also noticed another wierd connection, Polanski directed Rosemary's Baby, then lost his own child and wife pretty twistedly a la Helter Skelter. It crossed my mind to wonder if that was at ALL a factor in the selection of Sharon Tate to be a victim. RB was, for the times and mindset of Joe Normal, pretty extreme and dark. I can see Manson getting into it, especially as drug addled as they stayed pretty much all the time.

anyway, I'm off..... *laughs at self* yeah, OFF *snicker*

NS

Wow. I find it amazing you have the audacity to say your blog is The Truth. How much do you really know about the Warrens? Have you ever worked with them? Do you know about the thousands of people they have helped that never entered the media frenzy? I'm their grandson, and I worked with them for ten years. I don't agree with most of their explanations or beliefs, but I know they were always sincere. And many times, cases were exposed to publicity long before the Warrens became involved. I haven't been active in the field for 16 years, but I know for a fact they never exposed any investigations to public scrutiny without permission from the families. Their promotion of the phenomena allowed them to generate publicity for lectures, which in turn made it easier for people to find them and get help. It was a different world, without internet and instant communication. I'm sorry that your revisionist ideas are keeping you in ignorance. And neither the Warrens or myself ever took a dollar to help someone in need.

Where is his blog? I wanna see Wolf's blog!!!

Many of us have made up our minds on the Warrens from watching them, following their "cases" and following the controversial items that came up as a result of doubt.

Maybe they WERE sincere. But I think they are very much misguided. That is my opinion. If you are their grandson, then of course you would be biased! Wolf is certainly not ignorant. He does more research, reading and discussing to keep on top of a topic like this but someone like you comes along, who has a one sided opinion of things, coming from bias, now that's ignorant!!!

And how do you think your grandparents made their money? Please.

Sorry you had to go through all that as a kid. As a Catholic kid growing up in the 60s and 70s, we didn't get dragged through all that.The Church was being modernized,and folk masses with gitars,and priests and nuns protesting for civil rights,etc.so for us it was a whole different scene.
Plus my parents really didn't go to church much at all.Oh,for my first Holy Communion ,yeah and confirmation,but not much else.
My dad sometimes used to tell family ghost stories brought over from Germany at times.When someone in the family would pass on,he used to hear this beautiful woman's voice singing in a dream.He never saw the face,just heard the voice. His mother would dream of a room with a table in it.And on the table was a vase of flowers,that was her death dream.Grandma's Aunt Louise also had a death dream when someone in the family was going to die.
To our family,dying was part of life, the paranormal was part of life too. In all the years my dad was in the USAF,we never lived in any haunted places.
My parents were very level headed and didn't think every thing that was kind of odd was a ghost or demon.

Sorry to hear the old lady getting sued, but you have to be careful about what you are doing with the paranormal, and people can be hurt by such action.
I've seen pictures of the Amityville house when the Lutzs moved in.Apparently some of the furnishings had been the De Feos and were not removed.
Could one or more of the De Feos been haunting the house after the murders, maybe,but I'm sure it was no demon.

The very fact that such a recent and tragic event was so publicized is tacky at the very least, and harmful at the most. Can we say "exploited"??? There were many victims in this saga, but the least of them are the Warrens.

Actually, "The Truth" is a play on words if you will. As you know, there is no facts in the paranormal but the Truth is MY OPINION on the nonsense or bullcrap going on AS I SEE IT. Sorta a Paranormal Venting blog.

I find your argument rather dull regardless of your claim. I never worked with, nor do I ever want to work with...well, Lorraine now. I have my own style, my own methods and quite frankly, they work pretty damn good. No need to have meaningless, senseless "sensitives" tamper an investigation with, Oh, yeah...I feel there is a evil presense here. Maybe being a family member you are a tad biased which I would expect nothing less.

My opinion is just that regardless of what you or anyone else thinks. I can say as I so choose and btw....they MAY NOT have took a dollar to help someone in need but they sure as hell profited from their misfortunes. Case closed.

We all are entitled to our own "TRUTH," regardless, who may or may not agree. Our own truth is based on our own life's experiences & our conclusions from those experiences. You could be Lorraine herself, It doesn't change anything.
You know the saying, "what quacks like a duck?" same analogy here.

You can't say anything for a fact! The only ones who truly know if they involved media (with or without permission) would be the family's and the Warrens, themselves.
If the Warrens were so "sincere" in this, why in the world suggest media to begin with? Why not just go to the authorities needed to solve the problem?
Why else suggest it? Many people would have to have their arm twisted to have their secret exposed, or bribed even. I mean let's face it, it's not something we want branded on our forehead for the entire world to see- I know this personally.

Talking about ignorance, how else did they earn their money? They didn't make a dime on other's paranormal problems, is that what you're saying? Who is the ignorant one here, LOL!!

Again, I don't think grandma and grandpa started out bad, I think they may have had good intentions, but greed got the best of them eventually. Just to clarify that.

Great find Shankpin!!!

I admit that it does warm my heart to see the estate of the Warrens, sued for damages. I can't imagine the stress the family has gone through, the psychological damage that such notoriety has caused them either. If it is proven that the Warrens' profited by the misery of others, founded on unsupported claims made by the Warrens and/or their associates, I do hope that they are penalized to the fullest extent of the law.
This is what I wondered about in the PI accountability thread? When the investigator has no proof of a paranormal event yet still claims events are paranormal and recklessly plays with someones life.

It will be interesting to see what if anything comes of this case.

Regards,
Mabon.

JN, Amityville was a hoax. At least, most of it was, anyways.