I have always wondered about the evil thins people do. I mean the horrible things some do has to come from true evil, but where does that evil really come from? As a christian I do believe satan (the devil) exist as the bible says is he the root of all evil or does true evil exist on its own?
Now I know people will say that some do evil and then blame the devil for their deeds as a way to escape responsibility but thats not what I am saying. I want to know your opinions on evil and where you think it comes from.
I believe the devil, satan is the truest form of evil but when it comes to satan having the power to make us evil or to commit evil I question that he has that kind of power.
So what are your thoughts or opinions?


Always a pleasure

Evil spawns from man.

the serpent in the bible is god he changed shape and convinced eve to take of the fruit of knowledge between good and evil. this is how he knew she ate it.

he then returned to judge them thus asking a question he knew the answer to.

they lied thus commiting their first real sin. this is the moment they "died" [loss of innocence] and this birthed shame and guilt which makes life feel crappier than is.
the fruit had no special properties it was just forbidden to test adam and eve.
and god doesnt punish us we do.


Evil is the tester of a man's soul
god wants us to overcome it so we may rejoin him as his peers not his children.

Well I think you have a valid point there, maybe your right evil is a test we strive to overcome but as far a the serpent being God I disagree I believe the serpent was satan but I don't want to derail the topic here. If evil is a test for us to pass daily then maybe some just fail miserably at it and this is where the true evil things people do come from, I don't know but thats an interesting take on it.


Always a pleasure

I don't think 'true evil' exists. Organisms strive to live/reproduce and when something or someone interferes with that we have a natural intense hatred for it.

So are you saying that Satan doesn't have influence on anyone? I thought demons were supposed to come from him and supposedly influence humans for evil?

i think it makes sense but the rest of you "sane" people got this make beleif guy confused with the original. but you are children and children have several false assumptions like happily ever afters, and black and white [theres colour as well people]

Satan is the ultimate source of evil but man comes in a close second.

+ yes i believe satan can induce men to act evil but sometimes he just kicks back and laughs because we do it all on our own without any nudge on his part

Belle, I don't know. Satan could have demons running around taking over peoples minds and making them commit evil, I just don't know honestly. Satan does exist I believe but does he have that kind of power? I have no idea.
Always a pleasure



Nix Xues, I think your comment here is rude and disrespectful, while you may disagree with me you should not resort to being rude to get your point across. You will have much more input and a better chance of getting your views understood by being respectful. And just for the record I am not ""children"" I am a grown women who has beliefs but I do respect others right to have theirs as well.
Always a pleasure

I am a child. One of God's children. And for a time I felt like a child of Diana. But no most of the stories I ever write have no happy endings. But black and white are my favorite colors and maybe a little blue. Oh, magenta is cool too!

~_~

Oh I almost forgot...one of my favorite old school songs.

The Devil Made Me Do It

Thanks for your post and I must say I think your right while satan is the root of evil man certainly plays a big part.
So you do think satan can entice man into evil, He may very well sit back and laugh at the fact that he does not have to entice man, as man can come up with plenty of evil on his own. I find that very sad but it is true man does do some pretty terrible things.

Always a pleasure

Humans are or can be influenced by evil. It's up to the person if they choose to accept that or not. Our will is the is the strongest defense against such an influence... but, we must have knowledge in this in order to be prepared, or else we succumb to it.

Yes. This is a theory I have heard before and I sort of believe it. The Mathematics of Demons. Since the population is growing bigger and the number of demons is the same, some have figured out how to bounce around, like small tiny signals on a computer moving back and forth to make it work, but in this case they bounce from man to man only staying a second or two and while in the area of man, he can plant a seed, a thought, and impulse. Many say they were perfectly normal till one day they just snapped. Demonic algebra or what have you not.

This I totally agree with. It is also said that man is like a ship. The tongue is so small but it can be used to move us just as a small tiny rudder moves a huge ship. The most self disciplined men know how to control their tongue. Most of us lack self discipline but some people are awesome with it. Not sure if self discipline can be correlated to having a weak will. But if so the weak will of some might allow us to be influenced.

On another note resist the devil and He will flee.

Very interesting and very true! Willpower can be used to avoid evil or using evil whether through our voices or our actions and God helps us with that willpower. Nice post Clovis, Thank you.

Always a pleasure

While I do believe that evil does excist I do not believe in a evil being making you do things, like everything it's a choice. I believe Satan, Lucifer or whatever you wish to call him. For me he's just an excuse to blame someone instead of taking the blame yourself. I think when we do bad things we need to take time to reflect on the effect it had on us & others close to us, & learn from it & move on.

It takes time to brake a person's will, not easy. It's a gradual process. Like a person will get a thought/action in their mind, and at first they may reject that thought as corrupt, or bad.. but eventually, little by little, evil touches us with those thoughts over and over again. Till eventually, if our will isn't strong enough, it will brake us down. We will begin to accept that twisted thought, or idea and even rationalize it as being "okay" (in the most self centered way imaginable even)-- It's always something that goes against nature, in itself. Normally these thoughts, or actions are rejected by society, against morale, and we will almost always reject the thoughts in the very beginning, but depending on our will's resilience will determine the extent of influence.

What is good or evil and what is right and wrong has always bin up to someones opinion, perspective, and beliefs.

Satan and others like him are just an excuse for people not to take responsibility for their actions. I have never found a spirit who was able to make me do something I really don't want to do.

Satan does tempt men.
but ultimately it's their choice

hence true evil is mans ability to lie.
lie about his sins to
justify them to bury the shame of weakness.

I disagree with you, true there could be some individual & cultural variations on right or wrong ( like drinking alcohol, or not; or eating meat or not), but these are all minor differences. Look at the case of the Austrian Fritzl, molesting his daughter since age 11, then fathering his own grandchildren, then raping them again; all the time while they're imprisoned in a tiny cellar, for 24 years. This is pure 'evil'. There are no opinions, perspectives or beliefs that can offer a different interpretation or make what he did any less evil . Also, saving a life, feeding a needy child, nursing the sick etc., are 'good' deeds, so yes an objective universal definition of right & wrong does exist.

Satan can do nothing more than try to entice, tempt, but never coerce. We are responsible for our actions, we freely choose to act or not.

And yet those polygamists from Texas did this very same thing, minus the cellar. THEY thought it was "right" and appropriate, so we cannot say that anything is always wrong or right. You and I may think what he did was evil, but in his mind and in others minds' it was completely sensible and "right" on every level. And saving lives and nurturing the sick can be considered good, but when the human population continues to grow and grow until we eventually destroy all life on this planet and cannot support our own species, thusly degenerating into war and anarchy, it's no longer "good" or "right"; in fact it would probably be considered a good thing to shave down the human population in that scenario. It all depends on the situation and the person's opinion in regards to "right" and "wrong". No moral is a constant. Not one. Majority opinion does not make something "right" or "wrong".

there is no evil. only Gods will . everything happens for a reason ( like it or not , agree or not ) that includes what people deem 'evil'. nothing can occur without God knowing and approving it. after all God is the creator of evil as well as everything else correct ? in belief. ( again no proof)

you can't believe everything happens for a reason and that God is all knowing and all powerful and yet somehow 'evil' happens that God didn't count on or create.

Evil is a product of free will not God IMHO. God gave free will and people can decide what to do with it. Some can say well God is responsible for all of it but that is like a parent making a child, the parent could control the child, lock them up to insure the child never does evil and keep the child locked up so as an adult they would not do any evil, but normally the parent does not do that and if a child does grow up to be an adult serial killer it is not the parents fault but the person themselves. So it is with God, our free will and our choices our ours not His, that is the gift He gave us and we can use our free will for good or evil. We can even use it do no nothing at all.

free will is an illusion.

That is the view of 'hard determinism'. Obviously I do not agree with it. Interesting concept though.

No one really does have free will. We're bound by morals, ethics, laws, the government, bias, prejudice, discrimination, fundamentalism, religion, our peers, our family, our own fears.... the list goes on and on. If we truly had free will, we could do whatever we desire, but obviously we can't, therefore we don't have free will. America is the land of the free... pshh, give me a break. We're not that "free" at all.

The Texas polygamists, in my opinion , were wrong; coercing young girls into forced marriage, actually more like joining a harem of an older man, is inexcusable. The fact that they thought it was right does not make it so. Individuals are free to opine about what is good & what is bad, but that freedom stops when it starts to impact other individuals' lives & wellbeing. Moreover, I cannot see how even the polygamists case, can mitigate the sheer horror of Fritzl. As far as I know, there were no cases of incest in Texas, please correct me if I'm wrong as I didn't follow the case closely. In all cultures, incest is taboo, even biologically, inbreeding (incest) is a genetic dead end for any species, e.g. in a recent research female mice refused to mate with inbred males. Add to that his cruelty in rapping an 11 years old, & imprisoning her in a cellar for 24 years, while at the same time he was living with her mother and watching her anguish for her missing daughter, whom he locked up just below. He even molested his own grand/children . Would anyone lock a rat in a cellar for 24 years, let alone young children? Fritzl was aware that what he did is wrong, otherwise no need for secrecy. That in "his or others' minds' it was "right" on every level", does not change the fact that it is wrong. One individual's evaluation and excuses are not enough, or else why condemn Stalin who is responsible for 60 million deaths, or Hitler's final solution? In their minds, they were working for the good of their country; does that make it right?
As for controlling human population, wouldn't you agree that contraceptives are a better and more humane solution than leaving people to suffer & die of hunger and disease. Who will decide which part of humanity deserves to be "shaved off" and where will they start ? With the diseased, the handicapped? carriers of genetic diseases? the aged? the not so smart? I disagree with you, there are moral constants which apply to people, & even to animals, regardless of what the majority says, or the "if I feel good about it , then it's ok" trend .

We have complete free will one can do whatever they desire there's nothing stopping you but there WILL BE CONSEQUENSES for your actions. We have choices to make every single day and though we do have rules regulations and laws to follow that does not stop us from choosing to do them anyways. If we had no free will what so ever we would not have the choice to break the law or cheat or lie ect. we have free ill to do whatever we want but we too have to pay for those choices!


Always a pleasure

Agreed there is something wrong about someone blaming someone or something that no one can see or hear. Satan is just a poor excuse for wanting to do something bad.

I believe there was a lot of inbreeding in the Texas polygamist compound, but correct me if I'm wrong on that.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...toryId=89979940
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/22/p...ey_n_97975.html
It's not right, I can say that. And these people DO think that this is "right" and "okay" in their perception of religion, so even if the majority of the population says it's "wrong", it's still "right" to them. Also, if we take the Bible as factually correct (which I do not, btw, but let's assume for a moment), then massive inbreeding must have occurred if Adam and Eve were the only two humans. They would have had children, and then who would those children have children with? Their brothers and sisters. Therefore, we cannot say inbreeding is wrong and take the Bible as truth (assuming one believes in the Bible of course. Not saying you do or don't, but this is just an example). Yes, Fritzl was a horrid person for what he did, and there is no excuse for his behavior and the pain he caused his family. That is not right at all. But obviously he thought it was okay, or that he was morally able to do this, otherwise he wouldn't have done such a thing. Who are we to say what is right and what is wrong? All we know of "right" and "wrong" is what we've been taught and what is accepted by our culture. In all honesty there is no "right" and "wrong". Animals do not have "right" and "wrong". They simply exist and do what they need to in order to survive. Animals don't inbreed with their own families because it's genetically harmful and would cause their species to die off, as you said. It's not because they have "morals", it's because they are driven to survive to the best of their ability. Does that apply to humans? Not necessarily. Humans have driven instinct to near nonexistence. We don't follow our instincts very well anymore, and we don't see the problem in interbreeding (or at least some individuals). Humans don't realize the consequences of many of the things they do. We're just rather blind to put it bluntly. Just look at anorexia, obesity, incest, drug use, casual sex, and all of the genetic disorders humans have. None of these are "good" for our species at all. In the wild, genetically "inefficient" animals are killed, die because of their mutation, or cannot find a mate. That's not true for the human population (not saying it's a negative thing, though) so we have vast multitudes of genetic disorders that get passed down to the next generation. In the wild it's "survival of the fittest" and in the human world it's "let's give everyone a chance". Humans don't have the same mentality as other animals because we can control our environments and how we live. If that wasn't the case, then "ineffective" people would simply die so the human race would continue to be strong as a whole. We're past that behavior now. Whether this is for certain "good" or "bad", I cannot say. If we're looking at the success of our entire species, it can be both good and bad, and if we're looking at pure morals it's entirely good and fair. It's all part of perspective.

Sure, contraceptives are a better solution, but even then they don't always work, and some major religions are against them. Catholicism completely condemns contraceptives because they feel intercourse's only purpose is to create more humans. There are more than 1.1 BILLION Catholics in the world, so that's at least 1.1 billion people who will not use contraceptives. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/4243727.stm) I don't support the notion of simply getting rid of a large section of the human population, but it would be the most efficient solution. That's all I'm saying. And yes, if governments were to do this, they would start with "ineffective" humans. The sick, disabled, unintelligent, mentally disabled, genetically "imperfect", religiously "imperfect" people would be killed off first. That's Social Darwinism, and it WOULD benefit humanity as a whole, but it's morally wrong. Hitler tried to do this in Germany because he wanted the nation to be at it's peak of potential. Yes, this is morally incorrect, but he was trying to help his nation succeed. What is more "wrong": deliberately killing a large number of people, or killing all of us in the end by our own hands?

Just for clarification; I don't support the idea of social darwinism or mass genocide. I'm merely trying to make a point here.

And yet consequence is based off of restriction and the insubstantial concept of "good" and "bad". Therefore, yes, there will be consequences, both positive and negative, for EVERY action one does, yet these aren't based off of concrete ideas and values. Eating dogs is punishable in the United States, but in tribal villages in Africa it is an initiation into manhood. So who is right and who is wrong? No one. They have their values and we have ours. We are no more right than they are. Therefore, they have different consequences for their actions than we do. If an American decides to eat their dog, they are punished by the law, yet family dogs are bred to be killed and eaten in Africa, so this is encouraged. Different consequences for the same action. The polygamists in Texas believed in arranged marriages, which we consider to be "wrong" and punishable, yet in some nations this is still the primary custom, and is encouraged. Again, different consequences for the same action. "Consequence" is just a relative term.

If we exist here, ofcourse evil and good exist.

Who is this god and satan.. are they coming to earth doing the evil and good.

Or everything happens by our own action.

Here we try to escape from action, saying we not responsible for what we done.

God and satan is a combined management.

We are the workers.

This management is just going to scantion whatever project you bring to them.

They are not going to think about the outcome of that project. They are ready to play with their resource. They have plenty.

So who create evil project and who create good project.

Who is responsible the one come with project and the person scantioning all the project.

Worker think management is responsible because they scantioned, provided us with resoursce. They should take care before scantion.

Management think worker more experience with their work. They should know what is good for them and the world.

World project changed, but we and management stayed smae like before.

So ultimatly management can't do any project without the help of workers and workers can't do anything without the help of management.

So what is evil and what is Good?

Evil/good comes with a group of mind or from the head of the projector or from the management or from the need and circumstance where we can't blame any one!!

how can free will exist if God is all knowing and we serve Gods purpose ? it states so in your bible even. God created the light and the dark , good and evil . for Gods purpose which we all follow , want to or not.

you may think you have free will , but that's the illusion. at any given moment you can only choose one , good or bad , but the one you were supposed to choose. you may think you've changed your mind a moment later, but that moment is already a different mark in time ..... again the choice you were supposed to choose for that moment.

all a stage and we players ........... spiritual beings having a human experience. the illusion of free will allows us that . but spiritually all goes according to plan. I've always thought not being able to see that is nothing more than denial in a way.

How can we have freewill & then blame a mythical being for telling us to do things we know are not good? IF Satan has the powers that the bible & people says he does then wheres the freewill? Sounds like another double standard.

You have your freewill to register the property to whom you want.

Are you getting benifited or cheated, its all in your hand.

If satan is clever enough to cheat means... we are dumb.. We are dumb until we learn the truth.

If satan is clever, we can't say that we don't have freewill.

In general, the laws that govern social transactions in the natural world are brutal: dog eat dog, shark eat everything, lioness kills antelope to eat (often seemingly in a loving embrace), and a male lion who takes over another male's pride goes about breaking the neck of all of his predecessor's cubs. That's not evil. That's just the brutality of natural law.
Humans codify natural law and write it down in an effort to preserve our societies.
Yes, we have crime and murder and a host of other social problems. Personally, I think that anyone who commits murder: that is the taking of human life (in body or in spirit) - and who does so out of callous disregard for another living, thinking being, must be insane, but not evil.

I think Nature has her own way of doing things, and humans create law to clarify Nature's intent for humanity. But when a human steps out of these legal constraints, the person is not evil. I think the person is unbalanced, insane, or in some other way incapacitated. Hence, no evil in the world. Just Nature's way, and then human insanity.

So, so true Clovis...and thus God said "the meek shall inherit the earth".....

We as a race will continually be challanged and tested....how full our heart is with doing the right thing by God is the key. If our heart is completely filled with the Lord, and the Holy Spirit, then there is no more room left for evil to sneak in.....

Has anyone filled your tank lately?????

Our futures are not written in stone and freewill is just that. If God did not want us to have free will He wouldn't have given us the CHOICE to believe and worship Him. We always have choices in life and our choices affect our lives, our choices are not predestined if they were we would not have freewill.
I know we don't agree on this and thats okay we will just agree to disagree.

Always a pleasure

no. no free will. just the illusion of. ah but in the bible God didn't give the choice of who would follow( at least in christian belief) - it was predestined before birth !!

"28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]
"16It does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" "

Romans 9:16-19 [NIV]

And that is the clincher; the ultimate question. Paul has asked "Is God unjust?" for its denial of free will, for its disregard for what our choices and intentions are. Paul now has a mortal present that same question. His answer is a shocker:

"20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[Isaiah 29:16, 45:9] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Romans 9:20-21 [NIV]

basically the bible is stating you have no right to ask why . everything happens for a reason. free will is an illusion so that humanly we can experience life for our spirits . all for a reason. spiritual beings having a human experience . why ? I have no clue.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_freewill.html

Excellent Post, Ripley. Excellent.

I would like to know what people define evil as ? What is evil ? On what and whose standard will evil be measured on ? It seems to vary from culture to culture and even from person to person. Is killing someone evil ? not if you are at war. Is torturing someone evil ? not if you work for the police force. Is rape ( forcing someone to have sex against their wishes ) evil ? not if you live in a primitive tribal village. So what is evil, really ?

If all evil come from Satan, then shouldnt he be settting the standard on what evil is? But then shouldnt we all agree on what evil would be? No, we dont seem to be able to agree on that. Would Satan then have to work harder with those primitive tribal villagers? they dont seem to worry about taking actions that we in modern society would consider terrible crimes.

God doesn't want us to sin, He wants us to be righteous. And yet we sin anyways. The fact that we do so is an example of free will. Please meditate on the following verses.

Exd 25:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.
Lev 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish [his] vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.
Here we see some examples of people offering God something out of their own freewill. That's what makes the offering special to Him. It's something they WANT to do. That pretty blatantly shows free will. But I'll continue as there are some clearer verses.

Jdg 5:2 Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.
Self explanatory of free will. Words like freewill and willingly just pop out.

1Ch 29:14 But who [am] I, and what [is] my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things [come] of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.
He is literally talking about free will here. Being able to freely offer offerings to God from their own will. Don't believe that that's what he's talking about? Here comes the next verse on the same subject.

1Ch 29:17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

This is pretty huge. Hence why I bolded the whole thing..

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
Free will is being able to obey or disobey God. Free will is technically the ability to sin (do something contrary to God's will). Here we see a comment by Steven moments before he was martyred for our Lord. He bodly proclaims that the people he's speaking to have been resisting the Holy Ghost. In other words, they have been resisting God. Thusly, they have been the negative examples of free will. See, God gave us free will that we might worship Him in spirit and in truth. That we might actually choose Him OVER the carnal lusts. The only way to do that is to give us the option of choosing the carnal side. It's why there was a tree in the garden of Eden that we weren't allowed to eat from. Because as long as we were obeying God, we were choosing Him over that sin.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
This may seem out of place, but I'm posting it to show that God wants all people to repent and turn to Him. The fact that He wants it but many do not do it is an proof for free will.

That proof is necessary for free will to be shown. Please note that this isn't for debate, only supplement to my proof.

Romans 5:18 - 18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Romans 11:32 - 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

1 Tim. 2:3-6 - 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.

Hebrews 2:9 - 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 John 2:2 - 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[1] the sins of the whole world.


Always a pleasure Lt Ripley

and how much of that is man opinion.? most , like most of the bible.

and if you believe God is all knowing , all powerful and all happens for a reason. then sin logically couldn't exist.

plus - God makes 'evil'.

I'd just like to throw in Ecclesiastes Chapter 3:
Ecc 3:1 ¶ To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted;
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Ecc 3:9 ¶ What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
Ecc 3:12 I know that [there is] no good in them, but for [a man] to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
Ecc 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it [is] the gift of God.
Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth [it], that [men] should fear before him.
Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
Ecc 3:16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, [that] wickedness [was] there; and the place of righteousness, [that] iniquity [was] there.
Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for [there is] a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that [there is] nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that [is] his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Yes true evil does exist, but anyone can act as a conduit for the energy called Satan, just as anyone can have a change of heart and learn from his evil ways, in essence turning his or her transgressions in to blessings.

Love Omnaka

I do not believe in a universal right or wrong but there rights and wrongs that everyone agrees upon. If a universal right and wrong existed then there wouldn't be room for debate, no shades of gray.It is also possible for something to be neither good or evil or to be indifferent...like is a rock good or evil?

How about this example? I see a women getting raped in an alley but do nothing in fear of getting raped or hurt myself. Is that a good or evil action? I could have prevented a crime but didn't in self preservation. In WW2 the U.S. dropped the Atomic Bomb on Japan killing millions of innocent lives. Killing innocence is bad but this act helped to quickly end the war which is good. Abortion can be argued as either right or wrong, killing and eating animals can be argued to be wrong, same for suicide. Instead of writing these posts we could be building homes for the homeless but we are not is that wrong? Lets say I have a starving family and rob a rich man to feed my babies is that wrong? It is mostly decided that the current american war is wrong but if a U.S. soldier kills an Iraqi one or vice versa are those soldiers murderers or heroes?

Among other things we debate ethics and morality here everyday and have yet to come to any conclusions at what is right and wrong so clearly there is a difference of opinion and perspective here.

Of course everyone in the world will be agree that your example is pure evil there are a plenty of things that are not universally agreed upon.

I think you misunderstood me, or maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough. I am not talking about an "all white" vs an "all black" morality. Of course there are various shades of gray in between, plus the "neutral rocks". There are cultural customs and values specific to different societies, like the example mentioned before about eating dogs, or keeping them as man's best friend. there are also certain standards of right and wrong which are found all over the world, and during different historical epochs. Consider the "negative confession" of ancient egypt like :" I did not kill, I did not steal, I did not rob with violence, I did not commit adultery"... etc. There are legal codes from ancient mesopotamia as well, it will be too long to go in depth here. These standards are so common because they are functional, preserving the cohesion of a society or a social group. Our brains are hard wired for a certain level of empathy, fair play, and altruism, just like many other animals such as chimpanzees, dogs, dolphins, coyotes, monkeys..etc. "The researchers reported in 1964 in the American Journal of Psychiatry that rhesus monkeys refused to pull a chain that delivered food to themselves if doing so gave a shock to a companion. One monkey stopped pulling the chain for 12 days after witnessing another monkey receive a shock." http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/greatergoo...0506_deWaal.pdf. Therefore, one can assume that there is a kind of consensus on what is wrong & what is right which extends across time, geographically, and even across species lines. Within these standards there is a decisive factor which is intent. It is that which makes the difference between manslaughter & first degree murder. Harming others intentionally and with malice is wrong. About the rape example, where I live, seeing a person in danger & doing nothing about it is punishable by law. In my opinion it is an act of cowardice not malice. Stealing to feed your kids is not evil. Bear in mind that the topic here is EVIL. Dropping the atomic bombs is wrong, it was the lesser of two evils maybe, but nevertheless, still evil. That you added that last statement about Fritzl's example sums it up, at the extreme end of all the grays, the debates, and the cultural differences, there is a black line , a definition of evil which we all find horrific & unacceptable. It was not committed by Satan, but willfully, maliciously & deliberately by a man.

Just a side thought I wonder how many of you would call it evil if say the Pagans had a book & our Gods killed as much as your God does in the bible....

Gods do not kill, people do. I do not think that there is any one religion, monotheistic, abrahamic, pagan... that can claim totally clean hands, that its followers have never shed blood, past or present ; unless they live in a far far galaxy ;o)

Quite a few pagan religions practiced human sacrifice in the past. Many more have been involved in warfare and had their war gods. Some when faced with conquest by a greater group of people have resorted to reforming their religion to include resistance to the conquerers such as the Native Americans who had ghost dances. There will be countless other example though where none of the above was included. Modern reconstructionism of some pagan paths do appear greatly pacified but in a sense they can be viewed as Disney or lite versions of the more ancient and lost traditions which did include war as a common feature.

I would not blame this on the traditions themselves for they only reflected societal changes, such as warfare and conquest, resistance and population shifts. The rise of what most consider Christianity coincided with technological innovation especially in warfare. It could have been any religion that could have expanded with this rise in military improvements and in empire building. My personal belief is that if you remove the Christian element that evil men still would have made advances in warfare and would have still continue colonized other small tribes, forming city-states, then nation-states, then empires as we have today.

Thus in this manner God injected Christianity, through perfect timing, within these great social shifts and so with the bulldozer of colonialism, which destroyed many indigenous cultures or changed them drastically, also came along Christian belief. This is where we have to separate the actual believers who did not make war, the ones who were just drafted to fight, those who found out about the faith by the conquerers, and finally those who did not even care about Christianity but through greed continued the war machine so they could profit somehow or another through it.

Maybe not many would grasp anything I stated because it takes a deep understanding of history and social change for it to make sense. Basically though I will offer a small narrative. Through the continuation of mankind's advancement in warfare, back to when the horse was first domesticated then bred so it was suitable for war, the first empires emerged though smaller than on the supra-regional and global scale they exist today. Rome entered the scene and for the first time there was peace over a broad area of humanity, even though rebellions, civil wars, and border wars continued, for the most there was a peace. Rome built the first highway network. So before Rome it would have proven difficult to travel from one country to another. Because of Rome travel was facilitated and in God's perfect timing this is when Christ came and instead of being the King of the Jews in a rebellion against Rome He died. The Jews wanted a warrior king and were already in states of rebellion before Jesus arrived. After He died it came to a head and the Roman's began the systematic destruction of Jewish aspirations in Judea.

Now before this the Jews were widely dispersed already due to other events in history with having a presence in many cities within and even outside of Rome. So with the highways in place it was easy for the followers of Christ to go to many other cities within Rome and already have places to spread the message. As the message spread from the Jews of the other cities to the Gentiles of the Roman Empire it became a destabilizing force. Christianity in part became popular because it offered something to an oppressed society for whom their gods did not offer much in terms of comfort. Christianity was appealing to oppressed women in Rome and to the lower classes. Either way it became a threat to Rome so Constantine finally convened the Council of Nicaea and finally merged the older pagan beliefs with Christianity, officially making Christianity state sponsored. There were subsequent Councils who further developed what would become Catholicism and of course more emperors some who would not be so willing to accept Christianity but in the end this new blended belief that Constantine began eventually won.

Enter the Germanic tribes who swept across Western Europe becoming the new masters of the Western portion of the Roman Empire. Byzantine continued the legacy of Rome spreading it as far as the Slavic countries. The Vatican embraced the the Germanics who had for the most converted to Catholicism in time. This divide continues today with the Roman Catholic Church and the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches though other splintered branches exists from Coptic Orthodox to Serbian Orthodox.

The Holy Roman Empire, the Germanic continuation of Rome and the Church, conquered and influenced much of Western Europe. Islam rose in Arabia and spread like wildfire eventually taking Constantinople, seat of the Eastern Roman Empire and Orthodoxy, and which is now known as Istanbul. On the other end of the Europe the Islamics invaded Spain and almost penetrated as far as France. At the same time Catholicism entered the British Isles and in the other end of Northern Europe, entered the Baltic and everything in between.

The Reformation arose in protest of Catholicism and before long the Europeans were colonizing the Americas, Africa, the Indian subcontinent, and some parts of Asia. Focusing on America now we had the Catholics taking much of South America all the way north to Mexico. We had Protestants take most of North America. Now if we look at Europe on the map, so tiny, they made this rise of colonizing the known world through great technological innovations in many areas. Before this it was the Islamics who had expanded their empire and preserved higher civilization while Europe was in the Dark Ages. But as soon as the Dark Ages were over Europe expanded and expanded.

Some could say this expansion was just due to technology but with all the suffering they have caused the world through colonization I will add in a layer of greed and evil. This is a narrow view for there are many more factors. But focusing on the small tiny base of the Europeans to take over almost the whole globe for a time it appears they are highly savage and evil while at the same time they accused all those who they colonized of being savage and evil. Either way this expansion cannot be blamed on Christianity but Christianity has piggybacked its way through the empire building. This is why in the modern state of the world Christianity and Islam dominate most of the globe except for the Indian subcontinent and Asia.

Some can blame God for this I just blame men. But God used those men to allow His message to be spread throughout the world at the same time. If the Bible is right this message will continue to spread for the while world must hear about it before the end of the ages. Some can say the Bible is evil and God wants to kill and I can see how that claim can be made. I do not think God is evil but men are. We made all those choices. But God can use evil men for His plan to come to pass. He did use Cyrus but that is for another thread.